Wushu's lack of respect [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

norther practitioner

05-07-2002, 01:05 PM

I agree with LF..... wushu people can, if trained properly (ok, many are just forms people) can kick some serious arse. Again saying as always, it really is the practitioner, not always the style. I saw a fight when I lived in NY, it was this wushu guy (an old friend) fight another dude outside a bar. The wushu guy was a specialist in chang chuan, and got the aplications from his sifu as well as the flash competition aspect. He fought some wannabe boxer guy, who, by all means was a good fighter, just had a glass jaw, never made it passed semi-pro status. Well my friend and I were talking about kung fu, and actually the similarities between some of his chang chuan and the form I was learning at the time, similar stances, lines, etc. This boxer dude started talking **** about wushu and would not leave it alone, just kept hounding. Well about 10 minutes before closing the boxer guy came back up to us, and started pushing all my friends buttons. We eventually made our way outside and the boxer guy was there again, but he wanted to bother us some more, after some exchange of plesentries, the boxer guy through a right cross at my friend, which he avoided and proceeded to kick the **** out of this boxer dude in like 10 seconds. A nice front heel kick to the stomach, and a small clutch, then they broke loose when the boxer through a jab that missed and another cross which was blocked, the block turned into this counter that is hard to explain, but not too complicated (step to punch (r.), step again and hip throw). So anyway, my friend the wushu dude won the fight, against a trained fighter. Now, I know that not a lot of wushu people learn the applications and such, but they are out there. Plus, wushu does add an element of quickness. So, after all that rambling, I just wanted to say, some of these wushu guys deserve some kudos.

PaulLin

05-07-2002, 01:16 PM

Well, I have never practiced WuShu my self. But the history of it is not rooted. Although Wu Shu can try to incorperate other traditional styles into it, but the fact that WuShu can never be compare to a genuin traditional art(not the watered down types).

For the WuShu people I have met, they have no real power, not internal nor external. They post the punch rather than shoot or explode the strikes. I guess there may be other types of WuShu people who will focus on the ShanShou, but that is too fast built, no roots. It will not make much different with TKD besides flowing froms.

Then again, some people like TKD.

And the traiditional art spirit and respect are all dead, they see no value of following it. They only want what they can see in the serfce and grab that as fast as possible.

I still don't see a deep root in Wu Shu.

GunnedDownAtrocity

05-07-2002, 01:24 PM

i always thought wushu was just a joke.

i had no idea it was actually real.

African Tiger

05-07-2002, 01:54 PM

but isn't Modern Wushu the chinese government's attempt to turn kung fu into a national sport, thereby rendering it ineffective as a pure fighting art?

norther practitioner

05-07-2002, 02:03 PM

http://www.russbo.com/wushu.htm

I like what doc has to say about the subject, and pretty much agree.

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by PaulLin
Well, I have never practiced WuShu my self....

Which pretty much renders the rest of your response irrelevant.

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by African Tiger
but isn't Modern Wushu the chinese government's attempt to turn kung fu into a national sport, thereby rendering it ineffective as a pure fighting art?

Yes, and no.

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
How long have you been studying wushu?

Three years Boxer.

GLW

05-07-2002, 02:48 PM

This is the same old same old ....

The direction Contemporary Wushu is taking since about 2 years ago is not good. However, if you look at the old Changquan compulsory and compare it to Traditional Zha Quan...they are VERY similar. In fact, there are only 2 or 3 moves in that entire set that are NOT found in a Zha Quan routine.

The fact that those you see do not show or have power and focus says that they are not at the right level. If their teacher does not teach that, this says the teacher is deficient.

Modern Wushu was standardized to allow it to be judged. It was NOT intended to stray so far from Traditional.

The words on the site listed...well saying Gong fu and Wushu as if they are the same idea...

Wrong use of language.

Ni Yo Gong Fu, Ma ? Do you have time. Gong Fu is time and work. Wushu is martial art. If you practice hard - regardless of what style or the age, you are doing GONG FU (time and work).

The real problem is that a number of people who learn Contemporary do not delve into what they are doing and their teachers and the judges do NOT follow the judging guidelines and rules.

If you look at the IWuF rules, they will work for Traditional as well. So...the problem is with the judges and coaches rewarding substandard work.

Xebsball

05-07-2002, 03:04 PM

Questions:

-Do you spar?
-How do you spar?
-Can you do the techniques from your martial art or do you have to borrow from boxing/kickboxing?

Im cool with contemporary wushu as long as they dont claim to be able to do what they cant.

Liokault

05-07-2002, 03:14 PM

This site is talking so much toss about what wushu is.

http://www.russbo.com/wushu.htm

Wushu is an atrocity cobled together by the chinese government to controle kung fu.

I also object to the modern "Wushu" practitioners hijacking ok the term "wushu". it belongs to all of us and not to thease wannabe gymnasts.

GLW

05-07-2002, 04:03 PM

"Questions:

-Do you spar?
-How do you spar?
-Can you do the techniques from your martial art or do you have to borrow from boxing/kickboxing? "

Funny, the exact same thing has always been asked of Classical Wushu folks...usually in the form of "Why do you train one thing and then look like kickboxing when you fight?"

I don't think this is a Contemporary vs. Classical thing but more of an issue of people not getting a full set of training. If you choose to specialize in Taolu and never do fighting - regardless of being Classical or Contemporary, I see no problem as long as you are up front about it.... If you say "I never trained the applications much because I was more interested in form" no problem at all.

By the same token, I have a problem with those who claim to do Wushu (Meaning Chinese Martial Arts - NOT Contemporary) who can't do a decent form and who have crummy stance work, no basics... Sorry, but if you are in that category, what you do may be a martial art, a martial sport, or something else...but it is NOT Wushu.

"Im cool with contemporary wushu as long as they dont claim to be able to do what they cant."

Honesty is a wonderful thing.....

Liokault

05-07-2002, 04:21 PM

If they were doing good forms i would have no problem.

If they knew what the form was for i would have no porblem.

If they admited that they are not infact training in a martial art i would have no problem.

There is so much missing from modern "Wushu" that the practioioners just dont seem to see. The bottom line is that "wushu" or art of war is about fighting ability not gracefull movements or how high you can jump and land in the splits.

I think that modern "wushu" is doing so much damage to CMA and i also think that doing damage to the trad CMA was what "wushu" was developed for.

Ok.....Im not saying any more as this is just going round in circles just like the other thread that spawned this one.

stonecrusher69

05-07-2002, 04:43 PM

The only thing I don't like about wu shu is that it is called wu shu it should be called something else because the function is not combat but competition so just on that alone why would you think it is real kung fu.Wu shu came from traditional stlyes but now it is only a shadow of real kung fu.A lot of people who want to learn T.M.A might think wu shu is the real thing, so my beef is call it something else like competition arts so people know whats going on.

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by stonecrusher69
The only thing I don't like about wu shu is that it is called wu shu it should be called something else because the function is not combat but competition so just on that alone why would you think it is real kung fu.Wu shu came from traditional stlyes but now it is only a shadow of real kung fu.A lot of people who want to learn T.M.A might think wu shu is the real thing, so my beef is call it something else like competition arts so people know whats going on.

Wushu is also about control, physical and mental development, and self defense. Competition is only one aspect of Wushu training.

If people find Wushu more appealing, and choose to practice it over more traditional forms of Chinese martial arts, I don't see how they'll be missing out on anything. They'll be learning traditional AND contempoary forms, both armed, and unarmed, and learning the applications behind them. So really, what are they missing out on?

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Liokault
Wushu is an atrocity cobled together by the chinese government to controle kung fu.

I also object to the modern "Wushu" practitioners hijacking ok the term "wushu". it belongs to all of us and not to thease wannabe gymnasts.

Before you slam an art you clearly know absolutely nothing about, at least learn how to spell the inflamatory garbage you spew from you mouth.

tri2bmt

05-07-2002, 06:03 PM

Armed?
What the hell are you smoking?
Those guys use flimsy little tinfoil swords!
If they trained to be able to fight "armed", they'd use real weapons.
Wushu is a joke. A communist joke.
I like communism but not what it's done to the arts of China.
Maybe Wushu looks fancy but it really shouldn't be considered a martial art. Sort of like saying tae bo is a martial art. They've taken the fitness side and exploiated it similar to the way Wushu has taken the northern forms and extracted only the flashy showmanship.
Wushu is no good.

(That is not my opinion but is merely the truth.)

rogue

05-07-2002, 06:09 PM

It's pretty and I can appreciate the great amount of work that goes into it, but I feel the same way about figure skating.

If it was a fight between an Olympic TKD fighter and a modern Wu shu fighter(?)/performer(?) my moneys on TKD guy.

straight blast

05-07-2002, 06:28 PM

Man, you've got to settle down.

Before you slam an art you clearly know absolutely nothing about, at least learn how to spell the inflamatory garbage you spew from you mouth.

This is a forum. In forums, people have have opinions that differ. You asked a question, and if someone doesn't agree with you...so what? You talk about Wushu teaching control, and then show absolutely none when someone has a different point of view. If you don't like it, find an "I love Wushu" board.

My opinion on Wushu? I only know what I've seen and like most sports it looks very flowery. I don't doubt that there are some tough Wushu players out there, as there are in all MA's. But the ones that we mostly see are the gymnastic competitors. Perhaps a few Wushu guys could band together and demo the Martial aspect of the art?

Just a thought.

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by straight blast
Man, you've got to settle down.

This is a forum. In forums, people have have opinions that differ. You asked a question, and if someone doesn't agree with you...so what? You talk about Wushu teaching control, and then show absolutely none when someone has a different point of view. If you don't like it, find an "I love Wushu" board.

There's a difference between having an opinion, and just being an ass who ignores the points brought up by those knowledgeable in that which he criticizes, and sticks to his ignorant assumptions.

I understand that this is a forum, and within that forum, I expect people to have basic comprehension skills. I want to have an intelligent debate here, not a thread full of people's uneducated opinions or assumptions. Liokalt was not showing an opposing point of view, he was flaming this thread with further unintelligent assumptions about an art he knows nothing about. Pointing out his lack of spelling skills was tame in comparison.

My opinion on Wushu? I only know what I've seen and like most sports it looks very flowery. I don't doubt that there are some tough Wushu players out there, as there are in all MA's. But the ones that we mostly see are the gymnastic competitors. Perhaps a few Wushu guys could band together and demo the Martial aspect of the art?

Just a thought.

I could make a similar parrallel with Taijiquan. If I went by what I saw in tournaments, I'd consider Taijiquan a useless form of excercise because its form is far too slow. Such an opinion would be ignorant and incredibly shotsighted, and I'd be missing a valuable tool of excercise, cordination, and self defense.

However, since I study Taijiquan as part of my Wushu training, I know a lot better.

The same can be said for those who do not practice Wushu, yet feel the desire to degrade it by what they see on the floor of tournaments and competitions.

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by rogue
It's pretty and I can appreciate the great amount of work that goes into it, but I feel the same way about figure skating.

If it was a fight between an Olympic TKD fighter and a modern Wu shu fighter(?)/performer(?) my moneys on TKD guy.

This has to be one of the most idiotic posts I've seen thus far.

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by tri2bmt
Armed?
What the hell are you smoking?
Those guys use flimsy little tinfoil swords!
If they trained to be able to fight "armed", they'd use real weapons.
Wushu is a joke. A communist joke.
I like communism but not what it's done to the arts of China.
Maybe Wushu looks fancy but it really shouldn't be considered a martial art. Sort of like saying tae bo is a martial art. They've taken the fitness side and exploiated it similar to the way Wushu has taken the northern forms and extracted only the flashy showmanship.
Wushu is no good.

(That is not my opinion but is merely the truth.)

No, I take it back, this is the most idiotic post i've seen thus far.

joedoe

05-07-2002, 07:35 PM

Man, you have too much time on your hands.

Does it really matter what people think of wushu?

mantis108

05-07-2002, 07:38 PM

I hold the same view as Paul Lin and I think the word "roots" is the best pun and the achilles heel of Wushu. I posted the following on the CyberKwoon and I might as well posted it here:

" The assumption that Modern Wushu (Wushu for short) being drived from TCMA system; hence, it is by default a martial art is quite naive. There are many reason:

1) There is not concrete lineage. Where does the knowledge came from? Who is the "father" of the system? We all know that too many chefs will spoil the broth. So there is no originality and purtiy of knowledge and techniques to begining with.

2) Unlike Kung Fu, Wushu only has 4 pillars of martial fitness. Impact and Qigong are the most distingushed pillars of TCMA training but these are lacking in Wushu.

3) A sophisticated Kung Fu system has Ti (phsyical attributes), Yong (Metaphyiscal attributes), Gang (concises of the system), and Ling (summary in literature form. i.e. writen, characters, motto, couplet, etc..).. All these are expressed in the forms.

4) A Good traditional Kung Fu system has 2 types of forms - Quan (for fighting) and Jia (for conditioning). I highly doubt the Wushu coaches today would even know Jia exist and what they are and how they fit into the picture. I will be glad that someone prove me wrong on this.

5) Forms were/are logically put together in the prespectives of the pass masters of the style. There are many check mechanisms, one of which is partnered form, to ensure no tempering or liberal interpretations of the forms which are the intellectual properties of the ancestrial masters of the style. Anyone can interpret a move in any form with some descent applications but that doesn't mean that person understand the system. What about the flow of the form? Why is the form constructed in such a way? What attribute or inner most feeling of the system are expressed through the form? Just finding application in some moves of the form is noway a proof of the ligitimacy of Wushu as an martial system. The question is how and why are the pieces come together.

To say that Wushu forms has martial application and was put together by a lot of "masters"; therefore, by default a martial arts system is totally disrespectful to the real contributions of the pass masters who have made martial arts into a study that's is beyond the acadamic level. Certainly a martial sport such as Wushu should make it clear that it is but a sport and refrain from claiming combat effective so that it could pass off as a martial art as well. "

I strongly believe traditionalist are not ignorant people. They know what works and what doesn't through hard work (even more so than the "ballet dancing" of Wushu). A gold medal gymlist is not going to beat a Mauy Thai figher PERIOD. I am sorry that you feel that those who dislike Wushu and can give reasons on why are but a bunch of idiots. We traditionalists speak up because we don't want to be painted by the same bush as useless crap by others. Let the world know there is a hugh difference between Kung Fu and Wushu.

Mantis108

CD Lee

05-07-2002, 07:53 PM

This has to be one of the most idiotic posts I've seen thus far.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, :D :D :D

You just hang around a few weeks. You 'aint seen nuthin' dude. You may have seen some uninformed posts on this thread about Wushu, which until I read this, have only seen the flowery stuff, which I thought was pretty awesome stuff, just not martial. So, I too don't know that much about it. But you have not seen anything close to idiotic on the scale this forum can generate.

BTW, take a chill pill. Quit reacting to these guys so much. If you can tell us how great Wushu is, from athletic to MA applications on the street, then keep it coming.

I study Xingyi. How many Xingyi guys have people seen? Probably next to none. So what? I will tell you all that is good about it, and I don't care if these guys think it is a wuss MA because they have seen silk pajama dancers (Tai Chi) fools. Yeah, it is embarassing. Even I think they look like a bunch of friggin wimps. That is what people see. And that is exactly what you have to expect from public perception.

What do people know of Wushu? Deal with it man. You want to take up the Wushu torch and show us something we have not seen from the art? Step right up.

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by CD Lee

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, :D :D :D

You just hang around a few weeks. You 'aint seen nuthin' dude. You may have seen some uninformed posts on this thread about Wushu, which until I read this, have only seen the flowery stuff, which I thought was pretty awesome stuff, just not martial. So, I too don't know that much about it. But you have not seen anything close to idiotic on the scale this forum can generate.

BTW, take a chill pill. Quit reacting to these guys so much. If you can tell us how great Wushu is, from athletic to MA applications on the street, then keep it coming.

I study Xingyi. How many Xingyi guys have people seen? Probably next to none. So what? I will tell you all that is good about it, and I don't care if these guys think it is a wuss MA because they have seen silk pajama dancers (Tai Chi) fools. Yeah, it is embarassing. Even I think they look like a bunch of friggin wimps. That is what people see. And that is exactly what you have to expect from public perception.

First let me apologize if my tone was harsh. I'm currently dealing with the aftermath of a root canal, and am under some excruciating pain. So part of my snappiness is in relation to the amount of pain I'm in, and regrettably, I'm taking it out on this board. So once again, I apologize.

Secondly, Xingyi is one of the internal arts taught in my Wushu school, so I am familiar with it, though I have personally haven't had the oppurtunity to practice it. So yes, I've seen quite a few people practicing Xingyi, and I think its excellent.

When I think of Xingyi, "wimpy" is the last thing that comes to my mind.

What do people know of Wushu? Deal with it man. You want to take up the Wushu torch and show us something we have not seen from the art? Step right up.

It'll be my pleasure.;)

rogue

05-07-2002, 08:12 PM

Darn, again I'm only first runner up for most idiotic post.
Note to self: watch more c-span senate commitee meeting to lower iq a bit further.

Legendary_Fist,
I'm telling you my opinion of what I've seen. The marketing that has been done about modern wu shu has given the impression that it's like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, floppy weapons, demanding as he!! to learn, pretty costumes, great fun to watch, and many other things but not a real martial art. Step up to the plate and educate us unwashed.

First question, using modern wu shu what would you do against a double leg takedown? ;)

HuangKaiVun

05-07-2002, 08:16 PM

Legendary Fist, don't concern yourself with those novices who think your art is useless.

If you have made wushu effective for you, then it ISN'T useless and nobody can tell or show you otherwise.

There are people that SAY they have trained all their lives that CANNOT use their moves - and those are the ones here that trash your wushu.

The cutting edge of the true kung fu man isn't the selection of the right traditional style to practice. It is the USAGE of the moves in whatever forum one intends it for.

Just because a style doesn't have a "root" doesn't mean it cannot become effective. As it stands, wushu has direct roots in their sets back to the traditional forms - albeit with great deviation.

Any true openminded kung fu man knows that to do a wushu set well requires a special type of qigong and impact all of its own. Try DOING a wushu set - it'll require a special type of breath control and impact resistance that is very demanding in and of itself. I know from experience, having trained (and not truly having grasped) some incredibly difficult wushu stuff with sifu Jiang Jianye.

Wushu does have its own unique jing. Of the wushu I've seen, there's almost like a tongbeiquan whipping jing going on. The force is generated through a whipping motion, placing a premium on speed and balance over brute force. Not everybody is talented enough to fully utilize this jing in doing sets or in combat (for example, ME).

As far as wushu routines go, they are very carefully scripted by guys who clearly know what they're doing. A lot of buildup is required to master wushu sets, particularly those used in competitions. Simply jumping into a cartwheel split doesn't cut it in a training regimen - one must work his way up to it. And the two-person partner sets I've seen are effective in their own right.

Wushu forms DO have martial application - it's up to the individual to learn and utilize them. And it's NOT an insult to past masters to use the lessons that THEY stuck into the wushu sets. If anything, it's the highest form of HOMAGE to the efforts of past masters to take a lesson and then work it into one's own image.

I'll take gold medalist wushu master Li Lian Je (Jet Li) against any Muay Thai fighter in a true streetfight ANYDAY.

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 08:40 PM

rogue

05-07-2002, 08:43 PM

Some good points HKV, but when something is marketed as an Olympic sport(?) you have to expect the jibes about it's marital roots. I mention that I take TKD and the jokes start flying though the art I study has little to do with the Olympic style, and when wu shu hits the Olympics the same will happen to "kung fu". It's the kiss of death as far as respect goes.

Just a thought maybe the way to stop the BJJ guys from picking on everyone is to give Brazil the Olympics.;)

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by rogue

First question, using modern wu shu what would you do against a double leg takedown? ;) [/B]

Impossible to determine, because there are simply too many variables to consider.

Stacey

05-07-2002, 09:27 PM

what a cop out answer....you have no idea.

Wushu is dancing and acrobatics. Stop pretending that its fighting. Stop pretending that san shou has anything to do with your standard forms.....its all an insult to real kung fu.

kung fu is William Wallace cutting through an army. Wushu is a couple of kids with plastic swords waving them back and forth and pretending to fight.

Wushu is like a slumber party pillow fight.....right after the tea party for Mr. Cottontail. Its fantasy for people who can't take a punch.

It ranks right up there with movie kung fu and American TKD.

Shadow Dragon

05-07-2002, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Stacey
what a cop out answer....you have no idea.

Educate us than what the "mighty Stacey" would do.

:cool:

Legendary_Fist

05-07-2002, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Stacey
what a cop out answer....you have no idea.

Of course I have no idea, with such an open-ended question its impossible to come up with a sufficient answer. My response would be dictated by the size of my opponent, my surroundings, how many people are around me, how many of his/her comrades are nearby, his/her skill level, what's in my hands, what he/she is wearing, what I am wearing, the length of their hair, the intent of the attck, etc. etc. etc.

I can't get any of that information from "What would X style do if someone goes for a double-leg takedown?"

I'm surprised more people don't point out what an assinie question that is.

Stop pretending that wushu is fighting. Stop pretending that san shou has anything to do with your standard forms.....

Stop pretending you have any idea of what you're talking about.

PaulLin

05-08-2002, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Legendary Fist, don't concern yourself with those novices who think your art is useless.

If you have made wushu effective for you, then it ISN'T useless and nobody can tell or show you otherwise.

There are people that SAY they have trained all their lives that CANNOT use their moves - and those are the ones here that trash your wushu.

That statement is said without proof, you just have to visit us all to find out if we can use our arts. To say some thing like that is equivalent to a challenge to fight with all of us who are in traditional arts.

The cutting edge of the true kung fu man isn't the selection of the right traditional style to practice. It is the USAGE of the moves in whatever forum one intends it for.

Just because a style doesn't have a "root" doesn't mean it cannot become effective. As it stands, wushu has direct roots in their sets back to the traditional forms - albeit with great deviation.

I have seen the text books and tapes of how they learned Wushu in Chinese, as well as the compatations. It seems attempt to collect most major CMA and make it like a SuperMarket Center, for convienence, you can learn what ever you want and in as short time as possible. I don't see that works. No traditional master will give all out just to have no face to see their kungfu ancestors in the past. They only give the general popular known stuffs. The true deeper arts are still in the traditional line.

Any true openminded kung fu man knows that to do a wushu set well requires a special type of qigong and impact all of its own. Try DOING a wushu set - it'll require a special type of breath control and impact resistance that is very demanding in and of itself. I know from experience, having trained (and not truly having grasped) some incredibly difficult wushu stuff with sifu Jiang Jianye.

Wushu does have its own unique jing. Of the wushu I've seen, there's almost like a tongbeiquan whipping jing going on. The force is generated through a whipping motion, placing a premium on speed and balance over brute force. Not everybody is talented enough to fully utilize this jing in doing sets or in combat (for example, ME).

There is an example of needed for root. No root no higher level. I bet it is not your talent that hold you back, if you have a traditional way of learning, I think you can have that. Plus, it will take more than 10 years to have an earliest chance for deep parts of art in internal. In the traditional way, you are not just learning in class and intuctions. You must also pay attation to the master's every day reacts to every thing happened around him/her. To have the true higher arts, one must look the way more than just one aspect--the learning aspect--the count less aspects in every day behavoir must also needed if you want to have higher arts.

As far as wushu routines go, they are very carefully scripted by guys who clearly know what they're doing. A lot of buildup is required to master wushu sets, particularly those used in competitions. Simply jumping into a cartwheel split doesn't cut it in a training regimen - one must work his way up to it. And the two-person partner sets I've seen are effective in their own right.

Wushu forms DO have martial application - it's up to the individual to learn and utilize them. And it's NOT an insult to past masters to use the lessons that THEY stuck into the wushu sets. If anything, it's the highest form of HOMAGE to the efforts of past masters to take a lesson and then work it into one's own image.

I'll take gold medalist wushu master Li Lian Je (Jet Li) against any Muay Thai fighter in a true streetfight ANYDAY.

I really question about that, have anyone ever seen Li in a real fight? I have seen an interview with him a while ago, some movies workers jokingly hold his arms, and his response to that is totally not useful at all.

PaulLin

05-08-2002, 12:59 AM

If your motive is only taken CMA as a fighting tool that only existed in your mind if you are fighting, you missed all the important life long values of CMA. Root are importan to your moral and as well as deeper understanding and developments. Without it, you can never put the CMA in your life to achieve the total harmonization with the arts. If you only scratch the surface and think you have all, you mus try the traditional(genuin one, not the fake/water down one) and then you will what a base knowledge to know what are you talking about. At lest you can really compare them after that.

That came to an idea of why do you learn it in the first place, what does what you learning means to you.

In technique wise, it will take more than 10 years to really clearly shows the important of effects by root. But if you gone without root, in about 5 years, you will find yourself with no room to improve your art.

If you think the past masters are not discredited by WuShu, then you can find out how many WuShu practioners actually knows all the different styles he/she learned came form? And who are the most influencial masters in the system that directly related to the master that taught it?

To collect as many CMA in one place and unify them sounds good, but I don't see that would really work under Wushu.

I have learned Yang Taichi, Xing-Yi, BaGua, BaBuTangLang, ShiaoLing ChinNa, TanTui, BaoDingShuaiChiao, KunLunDanTao, LainBuChuan, LiauHeChuan, and TsonHe all in tradional way. I can tell you the master, grand master, the founder(except on KLDT,chinna, Tantui, and TsonHe, the founder is fictional, not really sure). And all the life stories give hint of how behavior the past masters had and what advantages/disadvantage of these behaviors broght in the art.

Unmatchable

05-08-2002, 01:00 AM

Or he could be just saying that because he's humble. Remember that A wise man walks with head bowed, humble..as the dust.

GunnedDownAtrocity

05-08-2002, 01:16 AM

i think it sucks when you start bleeding out of your ass.

scotty1

05-08-2002, 01:27 AM

If Legendary Fist has found martial value in Wushu (like the guy fighting the Boxer in someone's earlier story) then who the hell are any of you lot to tell him he hasn't?

He's not making any claims to a deep and distant lineage, for chrissakes, I could put together everything I've learnt from different styles and call it "Scott style". You could b!tch and moan about how it has no root and no lineage and no high level, but if I could kick your arse with it then your arguments are no longer valid. And who's to say Legendary Fist isn't the best arse kicker on the board?

OK so maybe the vast majority of Wushu practitioners are gymnasts who could not find any martial application of their art if it bit them in the balls. But there are people who can find the martial value in Wushu, and maybe we should be grateful to them for taking the commercialized, public face of Kung Fu and showing us that you can kick arse with it, instead of slagging them down and telling them what they are doing is not real, when it obviously is for them, and the reason it is not for us is because we have never crossed hands with an accomplished Wushu practitioner.

If I can attain good Gongfu in work, schoolwork, etc. then I'm pretty sure that Legendary Fist can attain it in Wushu.

PaulLin

05-08-2002, 01:43 AM

I have never said any one has achieve nothing, I have only said about why root needed for higher growth and Wushu cannot support that.

If you only looking forward to kick a$$ and not care about other aspect, you are suppossed to be rejected by all masters form the traditional rule of choosing a tudi.

If Wushu try to take in as much as traditional CMA it could, I wish you guys good luck. I don't see that will work and I still considered a stealing form tradition CMA, just like alot of Karate and TKD did to CMA.

Inquisitor

05-08-2002, 02:10 AM

I felt it would be prudent to dig up something I posted a while ago on the "Shaolin Kungfu" forum:

The main "beef" that most traditionalists have with contemporary wushu is that oftentimes it either tries to pass itself off as the "real deal" (e.g. advertisements that a modern wushu school teaches "ancient Chinese kungfu") or that it doesn't bother to make a clear distinction between the two (e.g. "wushu is kungfu! they are the same thing!"). To anyone who has experienced both, it is blatantly obvious that contemporary wushu is not the same thing as traditional kungfu, and vice versa. Also, there is an issue with the "*******ization" of various styles (look at Nanquan - a mix of Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, and other Southern Shaolin styles) and the change in the main goals - pugilism and philosophy. The main aim of modern wushu is, in three short words, to look good. However, all that being said, the traditionalist oftentimes looks down upon the contemporary wushu practitioner with contempt; not trying understand the time, effort, energy, and dedication required to gain skill in the sport. Wushu practitioners are true athletes, and should be recognized as such.

=========================

With all that being said, I would like to make clear that the distinction placed between contemporary wushu, created and propogated by the People's Republic of China, and the traditional Chinese Martial Arts is not unsubstantiated. You can make the claim that through learning modern wushu, one can in fact learn valid techniques contained within certain Chinese Martial systems. This may very well be true, but the simple fact of the matter is that no one learns contemporary wushu to learn how to fight. At any rate, the basis of this claim is founded upon the principle that modern wushu is based upon the traditional arts - no one disputes this (think of it this way: you learn how to punch in modern wushu, and the form/technique of that punch is based upon the traditional martial arts, but at the same time you do not learn the concepts/principles/theories associated with that punch, nor do you learn how to condition the body to punch without fear of injuring yourself, nor do you learn a myriad of other things). So yes, I would agree that you can find viable martial techniques within the scope of the modern wushu taolu forms. However, I would greatly disagree with the oversimplification that they are the same thing, when in fact they are not. Teleologically speaking, they have two different aims. And not only do they have vastly different purposes - with those different goals come vastly different methods. I have yet to year of a modern wushu coach who sits with his students and discusses martial philosophy. Has your wushu coach described to you the pressure points? Has he told you why you should do this technique in a situation as opposed to three or four other techniques? Has he shown you the strengths and weaknesses of using one chin na technique rather than another one? Has he went through a description of "You do this because the other guy does this, and when you do that he will do this, so you must then do this, or if he does this then you do this, and then he will counter with this, so you must follow through and do this." Do you learn basic Chinese Martial fighting theory? Concepts such as ging (and there are several types of ging), rooting, pressure points, footwork, sticking, leaking, trapping, kung training, sensitivity, etc. etc. etc. are all *fundamental truths* found in all Chinese Martial Arts, no matter the system or style. Does every modern wushu exponent learn of these things? Do you learn not only *how* to punch, but *why* you punch, and *where* you punch? Do you learn what to proect and how to protect it? When you learn the changquan compulsory, do only learn what you should be doing (back straight, leg bent, arm at this angle), or do you also learn *why* you are doing it (back straight because it allows for proper ging, leg bent because you are shifting foward to move his balance, arm at this angle because he may counter with this move, and you don't want him to)? Hell, have you even heard of the body/mind/intent/spirit/chi? Don't try to feed me some bull**** about how they are the same thing, because *they are not*. Anyone who has the experience and knowledge of both will tell you the same.

And yes, modern wushu is great for developing physical ability. However, I would dispute the claim that it develops the same physicality as that associated with the Chinese Martial Arts. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that certain aspects of contemporary wushu training in fact promote *bad* long-term health. Certain acrobatic techniques (as well as some ground-based movements) promote bad joint health, and place too much pressure on one particular area. Also, not all aspects of wushu technique correspond with that of the traditional foundation. For example, many movements stress that the arm or leg should be fully extended, when most traditional systems stress that doing so promotes bad habit, as it will leave the limb open to counter-trapping/breaking. It seems that oftentimes modern wushu will take the principle of overextension for training purposes (e.g. kicking to your head, even though you would never have to do so), and extend it even further and then place it at the forefront for aesthetic purposes.

In ending, I would say that there are similarities, but there are also differences. While I would say with certainty that contemporary wushu does not teach pugilism, that does not mean that I would discredit it as a sport. To have kungfu requires great dedication, great perseverence, and great diligence - whether it be kungfu in modern wushu or kungfu in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

scotty1

05-08-2002, 02:35 AM

Well said dude.

PaulLin

05-08-2002, 02:42 AM

I agree totally. I want to add that Wushu has changed the meaning of CMA, and by that change, people espect different things out of it. And the motive of learning changed. As well as the spirit. Definitly not good for long term growth.

Legendary_Fist

05-08-2002, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by Inquisitor
With all that being said, I would like to make clear that the distinction placed between contemporary wushu, created and propogated by the People's Republic of China, and the traditional Chinese Martial Arts is not unsubstantiated. You can make the claim that through learning modern wushu, one can in fact learn valid techniques contained within certain Chinese Martial systems. This may very well be true, but the simple fact of the matter is that no one learns contemporary wushu to learn how to fight.

That's quite a generalization. Though I didn't join Wushu to learn how to fight (I've known how to fight since I was kid), I did join Wushu to learn self defense, along with many other benefits that I have touched on before. Wushu has yet to fail me in any regards.

At any rate, the basis of this claim is founded upon the principle that modern wushu is based upon the traditional arts - no one disputes this (think of it this way: you learn how to punch in modern wushu, and the form/technique of that punch is based upon the traditional martial arts, but at the same time you do not learn the concepts/principles/theories associated with that punch, nor do you learn how to condition the body to punch without fear of injuring yourself, nor do you learn a myriad of other things).

How do you know that we don't learn the concpets/principles/theories associated with any technique we do? If I'm learning chin na locks, and how hip rotation increases the power of a punch, how is that not learning theory, concpets, and principles behind your art? Furthermore, how do you know that we don't condition our body? I do weight training, heavy bag training, run, etc. I also condition my body by doing external and internal form sets. In simplest terms, doing forms alone are conditioning the body. While preforming anything from Taijiquan, to Long fist, your body is being conditioned internally, and externally. The more elaborate and expressive of our form sets condition quite a bit more. However, we use common sense when we train so we don't injure ourselves. However, What school doesn't? We train responsibly, but we also train with little fear about being injured. We train to better ourselves mentally and physically.

So yes, I would agree that you can find viable martial techniques within the scope of the modern wushu taolu forms. However, I would greatly disagree with the oversimplification that they are the same thing, when in fact they are not. Teleologically speaking, they have two different aims. And not only do they have vastly different purposes - with those different goals come vastly different methods. I have yet to year of a modern wushu coach who sits with his students and discusses martial philosophy.

Then I recommend taking a trip to Pan Quing Fu's school in Canda. He's a Wushu exponent who knows quite abit about Martial philosophy, and is a strong martial artist in his own right.

Do you learn basic Chinese Martial fighting theory? Concepts such as ging (and there are several types of ging), rooting, pressure points, footwork, sticking, leaking, trapping, kung training, sensitivity, etc. etc. etc. are all *fundamental truths* found in all Chinese Martial Arts, no matter the system or style. Does every modern wushu exponent learn of these things?

Students at my Wushu school do learn such things. However, I can't speak for the entire wushu community, just like you can't speak for the entire traditional wushu community. You can't say that every traditional Chinese MA school teaches all of those aspects, nor can you say that those same MA schools are useless because they don't.

And yes, modern wushu is great for developing physical ability. However, I would dispute the claim that it develops the same physicality as that associated with the Chinese Martial Arts.

You're quite correct. Advanced Wushu exponents tend to lack the rather large pot-belly found on mid-section of traditional MA instructors.

In fact, I would even go so far as to say that certain aspects of contemporary wushu training in fact promote *bad* long-term health. Certain acrobatic techniques (as well as some ground-based movements) promote bad joint health, and place too much pressure on one particular area.

The same can be said for traditional arts like Monkey, which require deep, squatting stances, or to a lesser extent, Hung Gar and other Southern styles that also require deep rooted stances. Even beyond Chinese Martial Arts, all intense body movement can cause strain and tearing of the joints and ligaments. All physical training does this. Wushu hardly has the monopoly on "wear and tear".

Also, not all aspects of wushu technique correspond with that of the traditional foundation. For example, many movements stress that the arm or leg should be fully extended, when most traditional systems stress that doing so promotes bad habit, as it will leave the limb open to counter-trapping/breaking. It seems that oftentimes modern wushu will take the principle of overextension for training purposes (e.g. kicking to your head, even though you would never have to do so), and extend it even further and then place it at the forefront for aesthetic purposes.

Oh please. Both traditional and modern styles stress overextension for training purposes. You overextend to develop strength in the ligaments and the muscles. Take Crane and its absurd high kicking. You train to kick that high to develop the muscles in your legs and thighs, and to stretch the groin muscles. Thus, when you need to preform a technique, you can do it from a variety of ranges. Low, high, and everywhere in between. The same can be said about Hung Gar and its extremely deep stances, or Taijiquan and its slow movements.

In ending, I would say that there are similarities, but there are also differences. While I would say with certainty that contemporary wushu does not teach pugilism, that does not mean that I would discredit it as a sport. To have kungfu requires great dedication, great perseverence, and great diligence - whether it be kungfu in modern wushu or kungfu in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

Once again, if you don't think a wushu man can be a pugilist, all I need to do is point you to Sifu Pan Quing Fu.

scotty1

05-08-2002, 05:07 AM

I think by the looks of it Legendary Fist has experienced a side of Wushu that lots of people haven't.

So a minority of Wushu people are good fighters.

I wonder if the ratio is the same:

Good Wushu fighters to gymnasts

=

Good TMA fighters to McKwoon people

Legendary Fist coming on KFO and defending his art, and some of the responses he's had, kind of reminds me of a TMA defending their art on the Underground or a MMA board.

Which is kind of sad I think.

Liokault

05-08-2002, 05:19 AM

Over on the other thread that spawned this one Fu-pow posted an idea that will totaly remove my objection to Wushu.

They start to call it "Wushu dancing"

There you go. That ends my objection as it remover any thought that the practitioner has fighting ability or a proper grounding in Kung Fu.

As I stated over on the other thread i would prefer that they just call it Dancing.

Legendary_Fist

05-08-2002, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by PaulLin
If your motive is only taken CMA as a fighting tool that only existed in your mind if you are fighting, you missed all the important life long values of CMA.

[b]Yet that is not my only reason behind studying Wushu. I wanted to get in shape, the style of the open handed and weapon forms amazed me, and spirit of friendship and unity was very refreshing. All of those values are certainly going to be with me for the long-term. I've made life-long friends in my wushu class, my confidence has risen ten-fold, and my body is in the best condition its ever been (save for my tooth).

My reasons Root are importan to your moral and as well as deeper understanding and developments. Without it, you can never put the CMA in your life to achieve the total harmonization with the arts. If you only scratch the surface and think you have all, you mus try the traditional(genuin one, not the fake/water down one) and then you will what a base knowledge to know what are you talking about. At lest you can really compare them after that.

This is where we clearly disagree, because I see nothing all that different in traditional schools, that I practice in wushu. Furthermore, the exponents of traditional schools that I've run across, aren't on a physical/mental skill level that greatly exceeds my own, or my classmates. So, you'll pardon me if I simply don't believe that there's some "secret" aspect that traditional arts possess and wushu lacks.

In technique wise, it will take more than 10 years to really clearly shows the important of effects by root. But if you gone without root, in about 5 years, you will find yourself with no room to improve your art.

I seriously doubt I'll have reached my pinnacle in another 2 years. I highly doubt that I'll reach the level that I want to reach in Wushu anytime soon. Since I have yet to meet a "wushu master" who has only practiced the art for 5 years, and has flawless form, balance, and application, I think its safe to say that wushu has quite a strong root. This using your definition btw.

If you think the past masters are not discredited by WuShu, then you can find out how many WuShu practioners actually knows all the different styles he/she learned came form? And who are the most influencial masters in the system that directly related to the master that taught it?

To collect as many CMA in one place and unify them sounds good, but I don't see that would really work under Wushu.

I have learned Yang Taichi, Xing-Yi, BaGua, BaBuTangLang, ShiaoLing ChinNa, TanTui, BaoDingShuaiChiao, KunLunDanTao, LainBuChuan, LiauHeChuan, and TsonHe all in tradional way. I can tell you the master, grand master, the founder(except on KLDT,chinna, Tantui, and TsonHe, the founder is fictional, not really sure).

That's like asking someone who created boxing, wrestling, karate, Savate, etc. Lineage IMO is overvalued. Though I think it makes a nice conversation piece, having an excellent lineage doesn't automatically make your art strong by default. It also doesn't grant your sifu good kung fu skills, because even the best teachers have ****-poor students. I've run across quite a few individuals who could trace their MA lineage way back, but their skills were poor.

If I want to learn history, I'll read a book. What interests me is what can YOU do, not your master's master.

To me, the only true yardstick of ability is your ability. All that BS about who taught who means diddley squat to me, because if my life's on the line, the old man who taught my teacher isn't going to magically appear to save my butt.

If your instructor's kung fu is good, does it matter who he/she learned it from? What should matter is how well your instructor conveys what he/she knows to their students, and the skill level of the students he/she produces.

scotty1

05-08-2002, 05:34 AM

Agreed about lineage.

HuangKaiVun

05-08-2002, 05:35 AM

Once again, PaulLin and Stacey show their childish bravado and utter ignorance by trashing those that are far more trained and far more DANGEROUS than they are.

I will guarantee each of you that Jet Li or Pan Qing Fu would utterly blow either of you away. I'm not a wushu stylist myself, but I know wushu experts that would willingly fight either of you if you were to challenge them.

PaulLin, you show your lack of skill by judging an art and its practitioners via videotapes and heresay. Didn't your sifu teach you not to judge anybody negatively until you TOUCH HANDS with them? Jiang Jianye makes wushu videotapes and I used to be his student - I'd be happy to oblige you. So will my CLASSMATES.

As far as collecting a bunch of different arts, PaulLin, who are YOU to talk? You practice "Yang Taichi, Xing-Yi, BaGua, BaBuTangLang, ShiaoLing ChinNa, TanTui, BaoDingShuaiChiao, KunLunDanTao, LainBuChuan, LiauHeChuan, and TsonHe". You're no different from the wushu guys that learn different styles of sets.

Challenge? I LIKE challenges, being a traditional man myself. Be careful of what you wish for, PaulLin.

Liokault

05-08-2002, 06:02 AM

Ok HuangKaiVun Ifind you a rediculouse kind of guy.

It says on your profile that you want to start your own Kwoon. I think you are such a bad example.

And if you like challanges then come challange me. Im in the UK right now but i intend to be at the Florida open in july.

Come and find me there guy....just dont expect to be playing violin any time after that.

shaolinboxer

05-08-2002, 06:16 AM

Man, hot topic.

All I have to add is that when I practiced wushu I fought a lot.

Yan Ming didn't teach the applications of the forms because, as he would say, "application doesn't work". He preferred straight forward striking and long (lead leg kicking) to mid range fighting (elbows and knees). You should ask some of the guys who I helped become a bit less concious if wushu is a fighting art. And my training partners and competitors often helped me in the same way.

You can really chose how you want to practice wushu. I discussed this with some of the guys from the beijing wushu team, and they told me that you have to chose...be a fighter, be a forms stylist for competitions sake. You can't compete in forms if you focus is on combat and vice versa...because you need to spend all of your time on one specialty in order to be competative. But most practitioners have a strong foundation in both....they just evolve to be more specific according to their interests and/or talents.

Brad

05-08-2002, 06:39 AM

I'm a little shocked by the overwhelmingly negative attitude that's expressed towards modren Wushu on this forum.

I wouldn't let you get to down about it. The people that hate wushu seem to be more of a very vocal minority. The rest may question the aplication of modern wushu, but what're you going to do? That can't be proven wrong on a forum. The only way to prove that modern wushu can be used in a fight is by fighting(allthough that probably still wouldn't convince everybody).

Good, better, Me

05-08-2002, 06:42 AM

Hey,

When I went to see a shaolin monk demostration in Helsinki, Finland it really inspired me. It was a demonstration, so some of the moves and forms were actually wushu. I'm going to start wushu very soon, and I'm currently studying taekwondo.

Lots of people have no idea what they're talking about when they go and mock other arts. There are good schools and there are bad ones, but it's not about the art. I have LOTS of taekwondo friends who have beaten for example muay thai kickboxers, choy lee fut practisioners etc. Have YOU ever sparred with a taekwondo student? I don't know about America but here in Finland we give a good fight. In America you can get black belts really easily, so the meaning of the belt isn't so important (however people think that black belts are very skilled, but it's not quite so all the time). Here in Finland it takes from 5 to 7 years to earn 1.dan, and you really have to work for it. Taekwondo is a great martial art, and you can't really compare it with wushu.

Have you ever gotten into a fight where you've struggled for your life? I don't think so. So why practise only fighting arts. Wushu is a great form of moving. I personally like to practise moves by myself, without a partner. So I quess I could get my ass whooped really bad if I'd get into a fight.

Sho

05-08-2002, 07:04 AM

One should choose his type of martial art which best suits his desires and personality. People have different goals to achieve and do martial arts for various purposes. I haven't heard of a person studying a style for 5 years and constantly saying how bad it is. It is the choice of an individual and other people should respect their taste. All humans do not share the same desires, that's why everyone is unique.

Although this is a discussion forum and open for people's opinions, I do not find any excuse to start mocking and flaming other people's ideas. These topics can be debated very politely and well-mannered without any harsh atmosphere. I'm not blaming anyone here, but I have noticed that sometimes expressions get a bit tense.

GLW

05-08-2002, 07:51 AM

"With all that being said, I would like to make clear that the distinction placed between contemporary wushu, created and propogated by the People's Republic of China, and the traditional Chinese Martial Arts is not unsubstantiated. You can make the claim that through learning modern wushu, one can in fact learn valid techniques contained within certain Chinese Martial systems. This may very well be true, but the simple fact of the matter is that no one learns contemporary wushu to learn how to fight. "

And your point is??? The late Grandmaster Wang Ziping was known to say that Wushu (in the strict sense of the word) had to have Lien Yong Kan - Good for health, good for use (applications) and look good as an art. He could do all of that. He maintained that Yong (applicability) had to be maintained. This is one of the reasons you see a different flavor when you compare Beijing people to Shanghai - Shanghai folks tend to keep the roots more.

By the same token, there are many people who do Traditional Wushu who haven't got a clue what it is for. Many who do one thing in form and fight a different way. So, unless a person actually uses what they learn in their Traditional classes when they fight and do it well, I really don't see this as much of an argument. It is the pot calling the kettle black.

"but at the same time you do not learn the concepts/principles/theories associated with that punch, nor do you learn how to condition the body to punch without fear of injuring yourself, nor do you learn a myriad of other things). So yes, I would agree that you can find viable martial techniques within the scope of the modern wushu taolu forms. However, I would greatly disagree with the oversimplification that they are the same thing, when in fact they are not. "

Not entirely true. Many Contemporary Wushu coaches do NOT teach these things. Others do. This depends entirely on the teacher.

"I have yet to year of a modern wushu coach who sits with his students and discusses martial philosophy."

There are those who do. I know a number of them in the US. However, these same coaches are very selective about which students they speak with about these things. Now, we may be bandying semantics. If you DEFINE a Contemporary Wushu coach as one who teaches only the forms and athletic part and then say that there are Traditional Coaches that teach the Contemporary forms and such as well as traditional methods...then I would say within that definition, you are correct.

"Hell, have you even heard of the body/mind/intent/spirit/chi? Don't try to feed me some bull**** about how they are the same thing, because *they are not*. Anyone who has the experience and knowledge of both will tell you the same. "

Those same coaches talk about such things in each class. How many of their students listen..that is another question.

" In fact, I would even go so far as to say that certain aspects of contemporary wushu training in fact promote *bad* long-term health."

As are certain aspects of Traditional training. Basically, anything that over-stresses a joint, puts the body in an unnatural situation, requires consistent injury and recovery to develop over time is going to lead to bad things. Contemporary Wushu does NOT have a lock on such training. Take a look at some of the Iron body and such training and some Qi Gong methods that can lead to serious side effects.

"For example, many movements stress that the arm or leg should be fully extended, when most traditional systems stress that doing so promotes bad habit, as it will leave the limb open to counter-trapping/breaking. It seems that oftentimes modern wushu will take the principle of overextension for training purposes (e.g. kicking to your head, even though you would never have to do so), and extend it even further and then place it at the forefront for aesthetic purposes. "

Zhaquan has the concept of extension to build strength and flexibility. However, the system also has guiding ideas such as "Train low, use high" - and many Zhaquan teachers do not give this idea to all of their students.

"In ending, I would say that there are similarities, but there are also differences."

No argument...but the differences are not as great as many try to claim.

"To have kungfu requires great dedication, great perseverence, and great diligence - whether it be kungfu in modern wushu or kungfu in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts."

Exactly.

Royal Dragon

05-08-2002, 08:08 AM

Ok, Wu Shu is the "Dance" Version of Kung Fu/Wu Gong, simple as that. Much of the mechanics is all wrong for true Kung Fu/Wu Gong, and most of it is for show and crowd appeal.

HOWEVER!, many modern Wushu schools DO TEACH some sort of traditonal art, and many traditional scools teach some WuShu.

The issue is whether or not your blending and confusing opposing principals. If your learning to stick your chest out, arch your back and fully extend you limbs and jionts, that is a performace, crowd pleasing art, and NOT true Kung Fu/Wu Gong.

If your learing to keep your elbows slightly bent to defend against locks and breaks, and your being taught ot kept the spine straight, and powergeneration is taught for the puroses of transmiting destructive forces into an opponent as apposed to projecting it to a crowd for emotional purposes, and you spend just as much time working and TESTING combat applications of the SAME forms you are working on until they become highly functional, your doing true Kung Fu/Wu Gong.

Both are cool, and have great merit. It's your GOALS that determin which is right for you. If you want to play and dance, Modern Wushu is for you, if you want to fight then a pure traditional art is correct. Many people wanrt to be somewhere in between, and maybe a combination of both, or Wushu mixed with KickBoxing or traditinal mixed with a few dance routines will be right for them.

The only thing that really "Irks" me is when Wushu types want to claim they are in the same league as a traditonally traing martial artists when it comes to combat, and preparing one for it, because they don't know squat about it.

Kaitain(UK)

05-08-2002, 08:14 AM

To me a sensible analogy would be the guys who play basketball or soccer in the adverts for Nike - they can do some amazing things with a ball, things that the superstar players can't do. Yet put them in a game and the tricks suddenly become irrelevant - there's more to it than tricks and flash, you need the substance behind it.

chingei

05-08-2002, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun

Didn't your sifu teach you not to judge anybody negatively until you TOUCH HANDS with them? Jiang Jianye makes wushu videotapes and I used to be his student - I'd be happy to oblige you. So will my CLASSMATES.

Challenge? I LIKE challenges, being a traditional man myself. Be careful of what you wish for, PaulLin.

hawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawhaw!

tough guy!

baichi.

HuangKaiVun

05-08-2002, 08:22 AM

If you want to disrespect people, do it to their faces and endure the consequences.

chingei

05-08-2002, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Liokault

And if you like challanges then come challange me. Im in the UK right now but i intend to be at the Florida open in july.

Come and find me there guy....just dont expect to be playing violin any time after that.

oooh! another tough guy!

babo

chingei

05-08-2002, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
If you want to disrespect people, do it to their faces and endure the consequences.

well, I just took the back off the computer and looked under the desk. nope. no face here.

grow up.

HuangKaiVun

05-08-2002, 08:28 AM

I'll admit, chingei, that at least you are FAIR in your flaming.

For that, you actually have my respect!

chingei

05-08-2002, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by Good, better, Me

Have you ever gotten into a fight where you've struggled for your life? I don't think so.

why don't you think so?

chingei

05-08-2002, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I'll admit, chingei, that at least you are FAIR in your flaming.

For that, you actually have my respect!

score!

Black Jack

05-08-2002, 08:46 AM

I was not going to post but this has got to be one of the most golden harvest kung fu moments I have heard on KFO in awhile.

"I will take a gold medalist wushu master, Jet Li, against any Muay Thai fighter in a true street fight anyday."

Yeah that makes friggin sense, take a gold medalist dancer/movie actor trained in entertaining the crowds with his funkadelic breakdance movie gong fu routine and place him against any Mauy Thai fighter from Thailand, one is a guy who is does martial aerobic for medals, the other a hardened fighter-thats right read the word fighter, who works off the agenda of training to beat the **** out of other people, using hardcore training methods designed for this appoarch, fighting is his bread and butter.

Pleazzzzzz ***** what planet are you from:rolleyes:

Stacey

05-08-2002, 09:37 AM

this is a mute point.

even Jet Li said he's not a fighter.

My money is on the guy that spars and trains on something besides air.

Wushu is kung fu castrated. If its not..feel free to enter a no hold barred competition calling your self chinese commie dancers.

They kick and punch beautifully....until they hit something solid.

That being said, it does look cool and it has amazing acrobatics.

Pan ching Fu? Ok, he can fight. he had traditional training as well. Name someone else who can fight?

Legendary_Fist

05-08-2002, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Ok, Wu Shu is the "Dance" Version of Kung Fu/Wu Gong, simple as that. Much of the mechanics is all wrong for true Kung Fu/Wu Gong, and most of it is for show and crowd appeal.

I'm sorry, but did you just completely ignore what's been written on this thread over and over again?

The issue is whether or not your blending and confusing opposing principals. If your learning to stick your chest out, arch your back and fully extend you limbs and jionts, that is a performace, crowd pleasing art, and NOT true Kung Fu/Wu Gong.

The issue of overextension has already been established. Traditional arts overextend for training and demonstrative purposes, just like Wushu stylists do.

If your learing to keep your elbows slightly bent to defend against locks and breaks, and your being taught ot kept the spine straight, and powergeneration is taught for the puroses of transmiting destructive forces into an opponent as apposed to projecting it to a crowd for emotional purposes, and you spend just as much time working and TESTING combat applications of the SAME forms you are working on until they become highly functional, your doing true Kung Fu/Wu Gong.

Looks like Wushu stylists are doing true Kung Fu then, using your own definition.

Both are cool, and have great merit. It's your GOALS that determin which is right for you. If you want to play and dance, Modern Wushu is for you, if you want to fight then a pure traditional art is correct. Many people wanrt to be somewhere in between, and maybe a combination of both, or Wushu mixed with KickBoxing or traditinal mixed with a few dance routines will be right for them.

How grossly incorrect. You can learn how to protect yourself with a pure traditional art by learning Wushu, and learning wushu only. Wushu quite readily provides the tools you need to defend yourself if those are your goals.

The only thing that really "Irks" me is when Wushu types want to claim they are in the same league as a traditonally traing martial artists when it comes to combat, and preparing one for it, because they don't know squat about it.

I'll gladly claim that I'm in the same league as any traditional martial artist or equal rank when it comes to fighting, and I 'll gladly laugh at anyone who thinks taking traditional Martial arts or any martial arts makes them combat "experts". Nothing you do in a training hall can totally prepare you for what you may encounter in a self defense situation.

GLW

05-08-2002, 10:42 AM

Jason Ming Yee...

National Forms Champion when he was competing in Contemporary Wushu (Nanquan was his specialty)

Team member for Sanshou and now a Wushu and Sanshou coach.

You didn't say name a bunch...

But, to be realistic, No ONE who just does basics and Taolu - Classical or Contemporary - can fight. You have to do other training to learn how to issue power, how to distance, how to get in, get out, deal with pressure (a hard one), deal with fear, pain, etc... This is missing from more than just the Contemporary Wushu folks (many Classical schools do not do this either)

brothernumber9

05-08-2002, 11:13 AM

regulator

05-08-2002, 12:08 PM

"I'm sorry, but did you just completely ignore what's been written on this thread over and over again? "

no, he just basically thinks you're full of sh!t, and so do i. it's not the same d@mn thing , if it was there wouldn't be a differentiation of 'traditional' cma and 'wushu' cma

and before you jump , i happen to like wushu - it's fun to watch jet li kick a$$ on screen.

it's just not tcma.

sorry for speaking for you, Royal Dragon.

Brad

05-08-2002, 12:46 PM

i was told the nanchuan forms are made up mostly of techniques borrowed from traditional styles. I see techniques that look like they could be hung ga, or choy lay fut, and others. Does anyone know if this is actually the case? If so then at least in nanchuen there could be found application to learn if one were looking for fighting examples in wushu, at least in a most obvious respect.

The main differences I think are in the stances/footwork which was taken from northern styles, and the added difficulty on the jump inside crecent kick. I don't do Southern though.

Inquisitor

05-08-2002, 12:46 PM

Okay, I think a point of my original post was misread, so I'll clarify here:

When I was referring to the principle of overextention, I thought it was explicit that I was acknowledging its presence in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts. Apparently I was wrong in that assumption (one of the problems with this medium, heh). What I was referring to was that modern wushu seems to take that traditional concept, and "extend it even further and then place it at the forefront for aesthetic purposes," rather than for its original martial training purpose.

====================

Please, at least concede to me this point - that the goals of contemporary wushu taolu and the goals of a traditional Chinese Martial Artist are completely different. Side-effects of training in one to give similarities of the other notwithstanding, their ultimate goals are not the same. If you cannot tell me that this is true, then we need to backpedal and clear up our definitions of what contemporary wushu is, and what the traditional Chinese Martial Arts are.

The regimen of your training seems to be in the very small minority of the modern wushu community. I have spoken to several people in the SF Bay Area wushu community, and when I raised my previous points, all of them have conceded that the depth of their training is not the same, nor is its purpose. However, I want to make clear that I am in no way trying to degrade the sport of contemporary wushu. I just want to clarify that they are not the same thing, and that modern wushu stylists with no background in both should not be making the oversimplification that they are - to ascribe something characteristics which it does not have is tantamount to a lie.

Also, you make the argument that Pan Qing Fu is a good example of a modern wushu exponent who is the equivalent to a good traditional CMA man. I would greatly disagree with you there. Pan Qing Fu was classically trained in the traditional arts before he partook in the modern wushu program at the behest of the People's Republic. This is true for every single one of the coaches/trainers/students of the "old school" of contemporary wushu. All were built with a traditional foundation, and trained in very nearly the exact same manner. They were pretty much the same as their traditional roots because at that point in time, they were right next to those roots. However, as time has passed, modern wushu has grown ****her and further from its traditional origins. Whether this is good or bad is dependent upon the point of view, but that this is a fact should not be disputed. Point out to me someone who has been trained only in the contemporary wushu of the past two or three decades who can do the same things Pan Qing Fu can. If you do this, then I will agree with you.

Hell, Pan Qing Fu professes to strike a steel block a thousand times a day for external kung training. Because of his traditional skills, he helped to track down and arrest gang leaders in China. Have you ever heard of any modern wushu taolu competitor who has done this?

Although I cannot speak for every traditional CMA school, and neither can you speak for every modern wushu school, I would generalize our argument to the difference between "good" schools of both. To be good in the traditional arts, one is required to learn things that are not necessary for achievement in contemporary wushu. And I would not say that a traditional school is "useless" because it does not teach all of those concepts - but I would say that it was not complete...one would not be able to reach the highest levels of the art if one learned in a school that did not contain the principles I spoke of before (and more).

If I might ask, where do you learn wushu? And who from? I would very much like to know this coach who has you do heavy bag training and regularly practice chin na locks (I mean regularly - if he has only shown you the lock once, and you never had to practice it, then I would argue that you learned nothing).

In regards to your comment of "If I'm learning chin na locks, and how hip rotation increases the power of a punch, how is that not learning theory, concpets, and principles behind your art?" with a quote from my first post. You can learn simple things such as "hip rotation increasing the power of a punch," but that is a far cry from learning "not only *how* to punch, but *why* you punch, and *where* you punch? Do you learn what to proect and how to protect it? When you learn the changquan compulsory, do only learn what you should be doing (back straight, leg bent, arm at this angle), or do you also learn *why* you are doing it (back straight because it allows for proper ging, leg bent because you are shifting foward to move his balance, arm at this angle because he may counter with this move, and you don't want him to)? " I know that many wushu coaches will teach proper traditional form, but very, very few of them teach the reasoning behind it, beyond simple body mechanics and "wushu flavor." In the traditional arts, there is a reason for everything. If you are doing something, and your sifu cannot give you a good reason for why you are doing it, then you should go elsewhere. If you are in modern wushu, and you are doing something, and your teacher cannot give you a good pugilistic reason for why you should be doing something, then who the hell cares? The judges can't tell whether or not you know the counters to the techniques in a compulsory form, nor do they care.

And ultimately, unless you have participated in both, you cannot truly argue your side. If you you do not truly know both, you cannot compare them. Sure, you can say "Oh but it LOOKS like this and it LOOKS like that," but it is not the same thing. That would be similar to a blacksmith telling a swordsmith how to make swords. They are close, but not the same thing; at deeper level, they are very different.

Legendary_Fist

05-08-2002, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by regulator
no, he just basically thinks you're full of sh!t, and so do i.

So let's get this straight, you think I'm full of sh!t because what I do in wushu contradicts your ignorant fantasy of what it is? Let's not forget that your entire experience with wushu stems from probably seeing it on a videotape, watching Jet Li movies, or what someone else has told you about it.

Yet you have people who actually practice wushu, telling you what its really about, and you still hold on to your childish little fantasy despite all the information that I, and other wushu practicioners have provided for you?

If anyone is full of sh!t my friend, its you. And if you represent the attitude of traditionalist in general, I fear for the future of the Chinese martial arts.

NorthernMantis

05-08-2002, 01:37 PM

Wrong it is you who is ignorant or you wouldn't be here in the first place. I have friends (whose names I won't mention) in wu shu who say most of it has no application. What gets me mad is that the PRC kills off and tortures traditional wu shu (kung fu) people, then come up with that modern dance and they dare call us fakes and that they are the real deal. My friend has a wu shu documentary ,made by the PRC of course, that clearly states that "kung fu styles such as the ones seen such as in Hong Kong and Taiwan are a degenerative form of kung fu". Degenerative? How is traitional wu shu degenerative? Modern contemporary wu shu is a slap in the face to all the people who died trying to refine it (in battle), the son/daughter/friend/relative who had to learn form the mistakes of the dearly departed, the founders of the style, the ones who died trying to protect something or someone, the ones killed by the PRC for just practicing wu shu.

I'm not sure if Raffi changed it but about two years ago when I checked out his website he was saying that kung fu is just a mixture of karate and a little of wu shu and that wu shu was much faster and flexible and superior to kung fu. The Chinese martial arts world has suffered greatly, even some styles have been lost, and it was the communist government that did it to itself.

Don't get me wrong. I have seen how good the Beijing wu shu team is and I admire their high level of skill plus the hard training that they endure.

Here are some of my rants about wu shu:

-The large amounts of styles taught in every school:

They teach every style in every modern wu shu guan and only ONE form for every style. What is that all about? If my memory serves me correct there's 12 northern mantis styles and they all have more than one form. Every mantis form is the same. What happened to bung bo, 18elders , mantis exiting the cave?

-Every form is the same:

See one form you've seen them all. Where' the flavor? Where's the diference? It's too standardized

-Misrepresentation of mantis:

Praying mantis doesn't only use hooks to fight. We punch,elbow, spear hand, break, and throw just like the rest.

-The modern wu shu people who think that kung fu is made up and that wu shu is the real traiditonal style from ancient China:

Man those people make me sick and I've seen a couple of those. They believe that kung fu is an inferior wannabe copy of wu shu when it is the other way way around.

-Every now and then they come up for a new routine:

If it's the same fighting methods that they used back in the day how come they keep coming with new forms? I just heard a while ago that they came out with a wing chun wu shu form, yes you people read it correctly a wing chun wu shu form!!

-The southern forms:

When has anyone seen hung gar or win chun hopping around like that? Ok, granted the jumping double kick is a southern kick but spinning on your head from the ground?

-The sloppy technique:

In my oppinion wu shu was better in the 80's. Even Jet Li admitted that all people care about is peed now adays.

Well before anyone jumps on me about what I just said here are some of the things I like about wu shu:

-The speed:

Woah those guys are faster than a speeding bullet. To tell the truth I don't think even Bruce Lee was that fast.

-Fluidity:

One thing that they do well is the fluidity. Way better than I can.

-Hard work ethic:

That's something a lot of people don't have. Not trying to be mean but some people tend to just lazy there way through when in life it doesn't work that way.

How do you know that we don't learn the concpets/principles/theories associated with any technique we do? If I'm learning chin na locks, and how hip rotation increases the power of a punch, how is that not learning theory, concpets, and principles behind your art? Whatever I have seen wu shu applications and kung fu applications. Some are very different. Like I said I have some friends in wu shu and I heard something other than wu shu being for fighting.

You're quite correct. Advanced Wushu exponents tend to lack the rather large pot-belly found on mid-section of traditional MA instructors. I know a pot belly intructor whose in better shape than your average wu shu player and knows how to lay the smack down bud.

Oh please. Both traditional and modern styles stress overextension for training purposes. Not in my school

So, you'll pardon me if I simply don't believe that there's some "secret" aspect that traditional arts possess and wushu lacks. Well go and spar a wing chun stylist and you will see.

If I want to learn history, I'll read a book. What interests me is what can YOU do, not your master's master.

How can you practice a martial art without knowing it's origins. How can you appreciate the art with out knowing it's history?If you just learn techniques then you're just a machine without culture and not a marrtial artist.

To me, the only true yardstick of ability is your ability. All that BS about who taught who means diddley squat to me, because if my life's on the line, the old man who taught my teacher isn't going to magically appear to save my butt.

True but you need to respect the fact that without that person you would not be learning everything.

NorthernMantis

05-08-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by GLW
Jason Ming Yee...

National Forms Champion when he was competing in Contemporary Wushu (Nanquan was his specialty)

true but before Jason was in wu shu he did learn traditional kung fu.

Legendary_Fist

05-08-2002, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Inquisitor
Okay, I think a point of my original post was misread, so I'll clarify here:

When I was referring to the principle of overextention, I thought it was explicit that I was acknowledging its presence in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts. Apparently I was wrong in that assumption (one of the problems with this medium, heh). What I was referring to was that modern wushu seems to take that traditional concept, and "extend it even further and then place it at the forefront for aesthetic purposes," rather than for its original martial training purpose.

No, overextension in modern wushu is for training and developing strength, just like it is in traditional arts. Of course people will preform overextension in form competitions, because doing so makes the form look much more exaggerated, and exciting to watch. Once again, Wushu stylists aren't the only practicioners who do that.

Please, at least concede to me this point - that the goals of contemporary wushu taolu and the goals of a traditional Chinese Martial Artist are completely different. Side-effects of training in one to give similarities of the other notwithstanding, their ultimate goals are not the same. If you cannot tell me that this is true, then we need to backpedal and clear up our definitions of what contemporary wushu is, and what the traditional Chinese Martial Arts are.

Despite what the original goals for the creation of either form may or may not have been, it really means nothing when it trickles down to interpretation by teachers and individuals. Choy Li Fut was created for revolutionary purposes, I seriously doubt that the majority of CLF practicioners today are practicing CLF with intent to overthrow the government with spears and broadswords.

People train in a variety of different martial arts for a variety of different reasons. Some people engage in Taijiquan for purely the health and excercise benefits, and some engage in Taijiquan practice for self defense purposes. Neither of those approaches are wrong. Wushu is no different.

The regimen of your training seems to be in the very small minority of the modern wushu community. I have spoken to several people in the SF Bay Area wushu community, and when I raised my previous points, all of them have conceded that the depth of their training is not the same, nor is its purpose. However, I want to make clear that I am in no way trying to degrade the sport of contemporary wushu.

All Wushu schools aren't the same, nor are all traditional CMA schools. There are definitely some wushu schools out there that are all about competition, but there are also wushu schools that are all about self defense and self-preservation. The same can be said about traditional CMA schools.

I just want to clarify that they are not the same thing, and that modern wushu stylists with no background in both should not be making the oversimplification that they are - to ascribe something characteristics which it does not have is tantamount to a lie

I don't think I have ever stated on this forum that traditional CMA and modern Wushu are the same. Given that, you need to take your own advice, because you have no background in both systems as well. Thus, you have no basis to comment on the values/pitfalls of wushu practice.

Also, you make the argument that Pan Qing Fu is a good example of a modern wushu exponent who is the equivalent to a good traditional CMA man. I would greatly disagree with you there. Pan Qing Fu was classically trained in the traditional arts before he partook in the modern wushu program at the behest of the People's Republic. This is true for every single one of the coaches/trainers/students of the "old school" of contemporary wushu. All were built with a traditional foundation, and trained in very nearly the exact same manner. They were pretty much the same as their traditional roots because at that point in time, they were right next to those roots. However, as time has passed, modern wushu has grown ****her and further from its traditional origins. Whether this is good or bad is dependent upon the point of view, but that this is a fact should not be disputed. Point out to me someone who has been trained only in the contemporary wushu of the past two or three decades who can do the same things Pan Qing Fu can. If you do this, then I will agree with you.

Sifu Pan's example was used solely for the purpose to show that Wushu exponents are fully capable of defending themselves, and that wushu is not merely a form of dancing. Whatever Sifu Pan's background may be, he teaches modern wushu. Thus, I can claim Sifu Pan as a wushu man, because it is wushu that he is teaching his students. Heck, my Sifu also has background in traditional styles, but he teaches modern wushu. There is no "pure" modern wushu system, because modern wushu itself is made up of several forms that I've discussed earlier. Each instructor adds his/her own flavor to it, just like they do in traditional styles. In other words, the practice of modern wushu is not as clear-cut as you'd like it to be.

Although I cannot speak for every traditional CMA school, and neither can you speak for every modern wushu school, I would generalize our argument to the difference between "good" schools of both. To be good in the traditional arts, one is required to learn things that are not necessary for achievement in contemporary wushu. And I would not say that a traditional school is "useless" because it does not teach all of those concepts - but I would say that it was not complete...one would not be able to reach the highest levels of the art if one learned in a school that did not contain the principles I spoke of before (and more).

That is your opinion, and a fairly incorrect one, because we both know that all traditional schools do not follow the same principles and concepts to achieve their more advanced levels of training. You're feeling that a school that doesn't teach all of those concepts that you deem to be important is "incomplete" and not be capable of transcending to the higher levels of their art is argumenative.

And ultimately, unless you have participated in both, you cannot truly argue your side. If you you do not truly know both, you cannot compare them. Sure, you can say "Oh but it LOOKS like this and it LOOKS like that," but it is not the same thing. That would be similar to a blacksmith telling a swordsmith how to make swords. They are close, but not the same thing; at deeper level, they are very different.

And yet despite that you're comparing traditional arts with modern arts, and claiming one is superior to another, with no background in the latter. I was comparing the two arts because you deem it necessary to deem one as useless beyond a form of dancing or showmanship. I and others have shown that that is simply not the case numerous times. However, its extremely apparant that you have no desire to change your personal opinion, but prefer to wallow in your own pit of ignorance. In that, I do hope you enjoy yourself.

NorthernMantis

05-08-2002, 02:14 PM

L_F-

Now that you're done dissecting his post do mines.

Legendary_Fist

05-08-2002, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
L_F-

Now that you're done dissecting his post do mines.

Why bother? Your post contained nothing but utter disgust towards my art, and that disgust is based on what your "friends who do wushu" say about the art, and your own personal biases. Literally, to sift through all of that would be a waste of my time.

Though I do have interest in working out with a Wing Chun or a Mantis practicioner sometime.

red5angel

05-08-2002, 02:27 PM

Hey LF, where you at? You come through the Minneapolis area I will spar with you, I think it would be cool!

Brad

05-08-2002, 02:31 PM

-The large amounts of styles taught in every school:

They teach every style in every modern wu shu guan and only ONE form for every style. What is that all about? If my memory serves me correct there's 12 northern mantis styles and they all have more than one form. Every mantis form is the same. What happened to bung bo, 18elders , mantis exiting the cave?

Every school does not teach just one for for every style. At least ours doesn't. But I do see your point because most do. I just hate broad generalizations like "every" and "all". My first wushu coach said the point was to find a style that you felt fit you best and to find a teacher that can take you to more depth. Or something like that. Because modern wushu just doesn't contain the sheer amount of depth that traditional styles do. Eventually you will run out of stuff to learn and/or won't be able to jump and run around like that anymore.

-Every form is the same:

See one form you've seen them all. Where' the flavor? Where's the diference? It's too standardized

I disagree somewhat, but if you don't know the style well it does get pretty boring. It's subjective I guess.

-The modern wu shu people who think that kung fu is made up and that wu shu is the real traiditonal style from ancient China:

Man those people make me sick and I've seen a couple of those. They believe that kung fu is an inferior wannabe copy of wu shu when it is the other way way around.

I think those people are defenitely in the minority. I think most serious wushu athletes love the traditional arts and know perfectly well that KF is older and modern branched off of that. As far as I know mod. wushu was never (originaly) meant to replace traditional wushu. Unfortunately, the comunist government seemed to feel otherwise during the cultural revolution.

-Every now and then they come up for a new routine:

If it's the same fighting methods that they used back in the day how come they keep coming with new forms? I just heard a while ago that they came out with a wing chun wu shu form, yes you people read it correctly a wing chun wu shu form!!

Yeah, that does sound pretty wierd... lol

-The southern forms:

When has anyone seen hung gar or win chun hopping around like that? Ok, granted the jumping double kick is a southern kick but spinning on your head from the ground?

I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. As far as I know there is know "spinning on your head from the ground" in Nan Quan. Or much "hopping around". The footwork in Nan Quan is defenitely not Southern inspired though. Ask any wushu instructor who knows anything.

The sloppy technique:

In my oppinion wu shu was better in the 80's. Even Jet Li admitted that all people care about is peed now adays.

Agreed upon completely. The older wushu was much better.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh please. Both traditional and modern styles stress overextension for training purposes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not in my school

Some longfist styles do.

then how can you practice a martial art without knowing it's origins. How can you appreciate the art with out knwoing it's ilustrious history. if you just learn techniques then you're just a machine without culture and not a marrtial artist.

Very true. Without traditional, the modern styles are nothing. When you don't research your roots, your wushu does become an empty dance.

NorthernMantis

05-08-2002, 02:33 PM

What ,man you misunderstood me . I don't have utter disgust for wu shu. I got and seen so many wu shu tapes it isn't even funny. What I was trying to get at is th things that was done to martial artists by the PRC and the fact that they claim that we are degenerates irritates me.

I like and respect wu shu ,not the the practitioners with swelled heads who call us fakes, and so do my friends. It's just that they saw a few faults but it doesn't mean a thing or they wouldn't be doing it would they?

Brad

05-08-2002, 02:39 PM

Why bother? Your post contained nothing but utter disgust towards my art, and that disgust is based on what your "friends who do wushu" say about the art, and your own personal biases. Literally, to sift through all of that would be a waste of my time.

Though I do have interest in working out with a Wing Chun or a Mantis practicioner sometime.
Dude, except for maybe one sentence, I felt his post was pretty respectful, and actually contained some valid complaints. Pretty well restrained actually. People can disagree strongly on a subject and still show respect for each other.

rogue

05-08-2002, 02:57 PM

See what happens when nobody posts a BJJ rules and Kung Fu su cks thread for a few days. :D

Brad

05-08-2002, 02:58 PM

Hey L_F,

Do you train under Pan Ching Fu or one of his former students? I was wondering, because I think my teacher may have been classmates with him at one time. And my first coach learned from him for a short time. You should email me: bradbauman@worldnet.att.net

Stacey

05-08-2002, 03:18 PM

Hey *******,

that Potbelly is proper breathing.

I think its rich to see wushu dancers huffing and puffing from their chests.

No wonder they have no roots, they can't even breath.

Daredevil

05-08-2002, 04:13 PM

Heya,

It's possible that some mod. wushu schools stress and train applications. So, maybe its possible there are good wushu fighters, too. Often I think it's a case of a traditional art and a wushu art being taught together, or a matter of some teacher mixing 'em up.

The world is not so clear cut and a wushu teacher may be more than meets the eye. However, I will argue that for combat purposes modern wushu is commonly not the best choice and watered down. There will be exceptions.

But again, I respect modern wushu in other respects and would probably train it for acrobatic conditioning myself if I had the time to devote to training beyond what I am already doing.

I would like, though, for the wushu advocates who do trust their arts' combat efficiency to give me a definition for modern wushu, as it may well vary from the definition many traditional artists have in their heads -- myself included. And I'd like to hear an honest appraisal out of those modern wushu guys that do train self-defense, that is the emphasis on that specific to your school or teacher, or something that is a defining trait of modern wushu?

joedoe

05-08-2002, 04:23 PM

The only thing I would like to add is that I found it very amusing to see L_F going on about how he doesn't care about what your grandmaster's grandmaster did, but is more interested in what you can do, then continually carries on about the fighting abilities of Sifu Pan Qing Fu. :D

Other than that, this argument is pretty pointless - it is simply a style vs. style argument and there is no real answer to that argument. It always comes down to : It is the practitioner, not the style.

Inquisitor

05-08-2002, 06:25 PM

LOL I find it funny that you have somehow magically ascertained that I have never participated in modern wushu, when that is far from the truth. I trained in modern wushu for two years before deciding that it was not for me. Believe me, I am far from being a hypocrite. Nice try, though.

And your argument that because "people have different reasons for learning," that there should be no distinction made between the main purpose of the traditional Chinese Martial Arts and contemporary wushu as created and propogated by the People's Republic of China does not hold water. Just because *people* learn for different reasons, it does not mean that they arts/sports themselves cannot have set goals. Let's say that someone goes to a modern wushu coach (I'm talking about a pure modern wushu coach, not someone like Pan Qing Fu, who, regardless of what you may believe, has a very strong traditional foundation) and expects to learn a traditional CMA for the purpose of learning how to fight and defend himself. Sure, he may be able to derive some form of pugilism from the modern wushu training, but his time would be better served learning from a good traditional master. Modern wushu was created as a form of competition - whoever conforms to the set of aesthetic standards the best, wins. You don't think this is true? Then why is it going to be an Olympic SPORT? And don't try to feed me some bull that "Karate" and "Tae Kwon Do" are martial arts and sports, because people involved in those two disciplines make a clear distinction between the "sport" aspect and the "art" aspect (and yes, I was involved in both Shotokan Karate-do and WTF Tae Kwon Do, so I know what I am talking about). The traditional Chinese Martial Arts, no matter the specific *reason* they were created for, have one set purpose in mind - to have an efficient system of fighting (which nullifies your point that "CLF was created because of revolution"; yes, it was created to train revolutionaries, but it was created to train them *how to fight*).

This argument is not about specific schools, people, or styles (modern wushu is not a "style" of the Chinese Martial Arts - it is a sport derived from them). Please stop sidetracking the issue by bringing those factors into the debate. What we are talking about is the specific things in and of themselves: the Chinese Martial Arts and modern wushu, pure and independent of each other.

Also, you have clearly contradicted yourself in your counterarguments. In one, you state that "overextension in modern wushu is for training and developing strength, just like it is in traditional arts." But then, you continue by saying "Of course people will preform overextension in form competitions, ***because doing so makes the form look much more exaggerated, and exciting to watch***." Here, you have specifically contradicted yourself. What is the purpose of doing overextension in modern wushu? For training and building strength, or for making it "exciting to watch"? Sure, by doing such training, one can build strength, but what we are concerned with here is the purpose, not the means. Traditional Chinese Martial Artists will tell you to perform specific types of overextension for the purpose of *becoming a better martial artist*. The modern wushu coach will tell you to overextend *because it looks better* and *because it conforms with the tournament competition standards*. And sure, "Wushu stylists aren't the only practicioners who [do overextension because "it looks good]," but the only time a traditionalist would do it is, in three words, to show off. However, the underlying reason remains the same. They show off the ability to overextend and push beyond normal limits not because it looks good on its own merit, but because it shows a certain level of skill *in the martial arts*.

And when you speak of Pan Qing Fu, you again contradict yourself. You say that "Sifu Pan's example was used solely for the purpose to show that Wushu exponents are fully capable of defending themselves, and that wushu is not merely a form of dancing." I already knew that, which is why I said that your example was invalid and not applicable, because Pan Qing Fu is not a pure modern wushu exponent. He was originally trained in the traditional arts, and continues some aspects of that training to this day. You even implicitly agree with my point, continuing with "Whatever Sifu Pan's background may be, he teaches modern wushu. Thus, I can claim Sifu Pan as a wushu man, because it is wushu that he is teaching his students." Sure, he may *teach* modern wushu, but that does not mean that he himself only knows and does modern wushu. You can't claim that contemporary wushu is a legitimate Chinese Martial Art with an example of someone who does BOTH. That is bad logic. Also, Pan Qing Fu does not solely teach wushu. I know for a fact that he teaches the more traditionally-oriented aspects of his training to his "disciples."

Your argument continues with "There is no "pure" modern wushu system, because modern wushu itself is made up of several forms that I've discussed earlier. Each instructor adds his/her own flavor to it, just like they do in traditional styles. In other words, the practice of modern wushu is not as clear-cut as you'd like it to be." I know this, but it adds nothing to your claim. I have already agreed that in recent history, modern wushu was very close to its traditional roots. Back then, things were not as "clear cut" because contemporary wushu was still being created. However, with the way things are now, it is very much its own distinct, separate, entity. Again, I point out that we are not discussing the people, we are discussing the "things" themselves (the Chinese Martial Arts and modern wushu). You can teach someone pure modern wushu, without the traditional trappings, having that person do wushu drill after wushu drill, and perform the Changquan compulsory for hours on end, day after day. That person would be able to win the gold medal in wushu in the Olympics, because modern wushu does not judge based on knowledge or fighting ability. It judges purely on aesthetics.

I have yet to resort to name-calling, but for some reason you seem to want to end the debate there. I, for one, refuse to allow you to drag it down to that point. So far this has been nothing but a spirited debate on the difference between modern wushu and the Chinese Martial Arts. I may very well "wallow in [my] own pit of ignorance," but you have yet to disprove anything I have said. All you have done is attempted to sidetrack the point or use illogical examples. Address the arguments specifically, don't get frustrated because you can't come up with logical counterpoints, and then fall into name-calling.

Are or are not the purposes of the Chinese Martial Arts and modern wushu in and of themselves, different?

If you believe that they are two approaches to the same thing, then give me an example of a pure modern wushu practitioner who has achieved the same level of mastery in the Chinese Martial Arts as those who have trained purely in the traditional arts. Conversely, show me someone who has trained purely in the traditional CMA who can get in the top ten places in a modern wushu tournament.

I would bring out more specifics, but I'll leave it at that for debate purposes (to keep the discussion on a clear issue). Another thing - I have never once claimed that the CMA was somehow "superior" to modern wushu. What I *have* done is claim that they are different, and then stated my reasons why. I have shown nothing but respect and admiration for those who participate in contemporary wushu, and for the sport itself. I would appreciate it if you would not shove words down my throat.

Legendary_Fist

05-08-2002, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by joedoe
The only thing I would like to add is that I found it very amusing to see L_F going on about how he doesn't care about what your grandmaster's grandmaster did, but is more interested in what you can do, then continually carries on about the fighting abilities of Sifu Pan Qing Fu. :D

I used Sifu Pan's example because the argument is that wushu has no fighting application. Pan Quing Fu proves that false, since he is a fighter, and uses wushu.

It always comes down to : It is the practitioner, not the style.

I certainly agree.

Legendary_Fist

05-08-2002, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Daredevil
Heya,

It's possible that some mod. wushu schools stress and train applications. So, maybe its possible there are good wushu fighters, too. Often I think it's a case of a traditional art and a wushu art being taught together, or a matter of some teacher mixing 'em up.

My sifu is trained in both traditional, and contempoary, and as students, after we learn Chang Quan we choose which form sets to specialize in. Some choose all traditional, some choose all contempoary, and some choose a mix . Its all wushu.

The world is not so clear cut and a wushu teacher may be more than meets the eye. However, I will argue that for combat purposes modern wushu is commonly not the best choice and watered down. There will be exceptions.

I would argue that there is very little that is the universal "best choice" for combat purposes. The best choice highly depends on how well the individual can make it work for themselves.

But again, I respect modern wushu in other respects and would probably train it for acrobatic conditioning myself if I had the time to devote to training beyond what I am already doing.

Go for it. I'd recommend contempoary wushu training for anyone. Its not just for acrobatic conditioning however. It works everything, and you'll definitely feel it after your first class. :D

I would like, though, for the wushu advocates who do trust their arts' combat efficiency to give me a definition for modern wushu, as it may well vary from the definition many traditional artists have in their heads -- myself included. And I'd like to hear an honest appraisal out of those modern wushu guys that do train self-defense, that is the emphasis on that specific to your school or teacher, or something that is a defining trait of modern wushu?

I think I already answered this question. If I haven't, let me know.

Legendary_Fist

05-08-2002, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Brad

Dude, except for maybe one sentence, I felt his post was pretty respectful, and actually contained some valid complaints. Pretty well restrained actually. People can disagree strongly on a subject and still show respect for each other.

Yeah, and after re-reading the post, I owe NorthernMantis an apology.

NorthernMantis;

My deepest, humblest apologies. I misread your response and took it the wrong way. Sorry bro', it won't happen again, I promise.

As for your response, I'll get to it when I have some time. Guaranteed. ;)

CLFNole

05-08-2002, 07:49 PM

I wanted to stay away from this but I just got finished talking to one of my kung fu brothers and I thought I would share something with you.

My kf brother just got back from a 2 month stint in Hong Kong. Although being a CLF student first he has always liked wushu, he jumps real good and has a flair for the dramatic. While in Hong Kong he trained privately with a guy who one the Gold Medal in All-Around in the 1989 Asian Olympic Games. He taught him a hand form and a broadsword form. I asked him if their were any good techniques in the form and he "none what so ever". I then asked him if they talked about fight and techniques.

The guy went on to explain to my kf brother that fighting and techniques was something separate and different from the forms that people see.

OK, if you as a wushu practioner feel that traditional martial artists don't give you respect then we (the uneducated) need to see the goods. People will respect what they can see not hear someone talk about.

This guy was a Gold Medalist in Asia and he said the stuff you see does contain the techniques.

I am not questioning the fact the "good" wushu performers are incredible athletes but the fact remains that the stuff people see in the tournaments contains very little techniques. Now this doesn't mean the performer can't fight however since a lot of wushu performers don't spar the perception is there.

This is not an attack on you Lengendary Fist only an explanation of what many people have been saying over and over in this post although some not as pleasant as others.

To gain respect people need to be showed that wushu can work until then just seeing the flashy stuff and jumps into splits will amazing to look at will just be thought of a "eye candy" and not taken seriously. As you have said your school does train fighting to what degree you have not full elaborated on but however a vast majority in the US at least do not.

Peace.

CLFNole

05-09-2002, 08:21 AM

...

Legendary_Fist

05-09-2002, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by CLFNole
To gain respect people need to be showed that wushu can work until then just seeing the flashy stuff and jumps into splits will amazing to look at will just be thought of a "eye candy" and not taken seriously. As you have said your school does train fighting to what degree you have not full elaborated on but however a vast majority in the US at least do not.

Once again, it shouldn't be up to the Wushu community to "prove themselves" to the classical CMA community. The latter should be willing to learn from the wushu community, and accept the reality that every wushu school, just like every classical school, isn't the same, and what is seen at tournaments and competitions doesn't represent the entire art.

This argument reminds me of NHB individuals who demand that traditional stylists enter NHB tournaments and prove the effectiveness of their arts. I have yet to see any takers, especially from the traditional CMA community who are "trained to fight".

Am I to take this reluctance to enter the NHB tournament scene on the part of the TCMA community as a sign of their lack of combat ability? Afterall, there are many NHB exponents who feel that ALL Chinese Martial Arts, whether they be classical, or contempoary, are nothing but "eye candy".

Ironically, the response by TCMA practioners to that particuliar argument, was not much different than my own on this thread.

Brad

05-09-2002, 10:35 AM

I'm curious what public fighting formats would be aceptable for an art to prove itself. Also I feel through this that a "style" can't be proven effective, but only added respect for an school/organization's way of training. I wouldn't mind trying full contact tournement fighting someday, but since our school teaches traditional with the modern it wouldn't prove much if I had sucess. Just that our schools teaching system is capable of producing fighters.

mantis108

05-09-2002, 10:52 AM

The Issue for me is simple. Just like most Wushu people couldn't careless of Kung Fu and the real stuff, I couldn't careless of what Wushu is about. That's perfectly fine by me. So no need to prove anything to me since I have seen enough of how "great" it can be. All that I care is that at least make that crystal clear that Kung Fu and Wushu are SEPARATE AND INDENPENDENT of each other. I am pretty sure most of the Kung Fu folk would have no problem standing alone and need not riding on the tail coat of other martial arts. Can the Wushu people do that? Don't try to sneakly blend Kung Fu into Wushu and make it like "it has always been that way" BS. I know Intellectual property right is not respected in China but that doesn't mean a true martial arts student has that right to liberally alter the truth. It is the obligation of a true martial arts student to learn (if he/she doesn't know) and to speak the truth. BTW, what kind of conditioning forms there are in Wushu? I am not talking western calisthenic routine. I am talking genuine forms that is handed down since the dawn of Wushu. Please don't give me that breathing while doing a form is Qigong thing. If that logic is true then you are doing Qigong while taking part in all events in the olympic. Are they really doing Qigong in olympic figure skating these days? Personally, I found that is not only a sallow understanding of Qigong and a very low blow (pun intended) of character assination of Kung Fu. It is done in a bad taste trying to win a debate.

Mantis108

HuangKaiVun

05-09-2002, 11:06 AM

If wushu works for Legendary Fist, then wushu works for Legendary Fist.

Case closed.

NorthernMantis

05-09-2002, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by Brad

The older wushu was much better.

Very true. What I liked was that you could actually see solid technique. Not only that some of those guys could do wayy better athan anyone now.

DelicateSound

05-09-2002, 11:39 AM

If Wushu works for you LF, then good. I'm happy for you. If you can say that it is the best art for YOU - that it offers the right balance of self-defense, fitness, forms, and tradition that you like then fine. You have found an art you are comfortable with and I am happy for you.

However, what right do you have to degrade other peoples opinions?

I'm sure I'm not alone in thiking that Contemporary Wushu is a joke of an art - a *******isation of a once great art and that it deserves all the ridicule it gets.

At the end of the day you stick with what you like. I CAN appreciate the plus points of Wushu - but I don't rate it that highly. Same with me and BJJ :)

If you can face telling people you're a Wushu guy - fine by me :D

Sho

05-09-2002, 11:48 AM

Just remember that some people are not into the practical side of wushu. People have their own goals. However wushu happens to be an excellent system to act as a base structure for any further styles one may study, because it requires good physical abilities which are maintained over time.

Le nOObi

05-09-2002, 01:12 PM

My views on wushu are these, good thing to take bad martial art. Wushu was pretty much created by the P.R.C. to be a replacement to actual kung-fu not a supplement. Wushu will make you stronger/ more flexible but it does but alot of stress on the knees and can mess them up. Wushu styles are nothing more than versions of actual martial arts with most of the applications removed. Many people dont know this but changchuan is based on a number of northern islamic longfist(changquan) styles. This is the reason i dont like wushu at all because it gives the traditional martial arts that it imitates a bad name.

Legendary_Fist

05-09-2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Le nOObi
My views on wushu are these, good thing to take bad martial art. Wushu was pretty much created by the P.R.C. to be a replacement to actual kung-fu not a supplement. Wushu will make you stronger/ more flexible but it does but alot of stress on the knees and can mess them up. Wushu styles are nothing more than versions of actual martial arts with most of the applications removed. Many people dont know this but changchuan is based on a number of northern islamic longfist(changquan) styles. This is the reason i dont like wushu at all because it gives the traditional martial arts that it imitates a bad name.

Maybe you should read the posts that's already been posted on this thread, before you decide add your stupidity to it.

Legendary_Fist

05-09-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by DelicateSound
If Wushu works for you LF, then good. I'm happy for you. If you can say that it is the best art for YOU - that it offers the right balance of self-defense, fitness, forms, and tradition that you like then fine. You have found an art you are comfortable with and I am happy for you.

However, what right do you have to degrade other peoples opinions?

When one's opinions are based on nonsense, and lack reason, and have been debased by people who are experienced in that which they criticize, that gives me every right to degrade it.

Legendary_Fist

05-09-2002, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
If wushu works for Legendary Fist, then wushu works for Legendary Fist.

Case closed.

If only it were that simple Huang.

DelicateSound

05-09-2002, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist

When one's opinions are based on nonsense, and lack reason, and have been debased by people who are experienced in that which they criticize, that gives me every right to degrade it.

I can't answer for others, but my opinions are based on pretty sound experience, through friends that have studies the style and through observation of classes.

And you have no right to degrade that opinion.

It's obvious you have the hump about peoples views on Wushu. Instead of moaning like a girl on an internet forum why not SHOW us how good it is. Post a list of websites that argue your point, some statistics for any NHB tournaments, lists of talented rising stars from the art.

And that does NOT include movie stars or guys long dead. If this thread was to convince us to like Wushu then so far you are failing. You writing style, though offensive, is quite accomplished. However it is backed up by little or no evidence and fact - and for this I find the main body of your argument pretty flimsy.

Sorry, but I need more than one guys ranting to sway me.

Liokault

05-09-2002, 02:16 PM

We really should have a Wushu forum on here.

We could make it open to wushu dance, tap dance and ballroom dance.

Legendary_Fist

05-09-2002, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by DelicateSound

I can't answer for others, but my opinions are based on pretty sound experience, through friends that have studies the style and through observation of classes.

And you have no right to degrade that opinion.

Your opinion is based on second hand information, and pure outright bias.

If I had heard that Tai Chi was useless through "friends who had studied the style", and I sat through a few Tai Chi classes, that would hardly make me an authority on Tai Chi. Nor would it grant any sort of weight to my opinion, because my experience with Tai Chi would be worthless at best.

Given that, I'd hardly call your wushu experience "sound".

It's obvious you have the hump about peoples views on Wushu. Instead of moaning like a girl on an internet forum why not SHOW us how good it is. Post a list of websites that argue your point, some statistics for any NHB tournaments, lists of talented rising stars from the art.

So for wushu to be considered "good", there has to be exponents within the NHB circut? How ridiculous. NHB is not the yard stick in which to judge which art is effective, and which is not.

DelicateSound

05-09-2002, 03:00 PM

I'd hardly call your wushu experience "sound".

I would. I have observed at least 3 different classes and the methods and application I found to be VERY underwhelming. In a self-defence situation the skills learnt there would get you killed. This is not a slander of Wusu - I understand that many places just like the competitive form aspect, and this is fine. But these places were claiming to teach "self-defence". This is misleading, and exploitation is one of the things I hate.

How ridiculous. NHB is not the yard stick in which to judge which art is effective, and which is not.

No, NHB is not the yardstick in which to judge an art's effectiveness, but it is one venue where an art can be tested in a mixed full-contact environment.

*Where are the websites I suggested?
*Where is there any information backing up your viewpoint.
*Are there any articles of interest from respected writers in the MA field?
*Is there any evidence of the effectiveness of Wushu in a modern combat situation? Doesn't have to be an NHB event, or a recorded fight, it can be theoretical - as long as you can prove it.
*How does Wushu work in a combat situation? What principles does it rely on?
*How can Wushu adapt to other practitioners? To grapplers? To defending the sprawl? To knees, headbutts and elbows?

Up to now you have successfully questioned my points but you have NOT provided me with any weight to your argument. How is this possibly supposed to convince me.

?

DelicateSound

05-09-2002, 03:10 PM

Wall:

Wushu is amongst the best arts for developing... blah de blah......

Don't just pass of personal viewpoint as Word of God. Back it up.

*How does Wushu develop these things?
*How do they relate to modern combat?

ONCE AGAIN:

*Where are the websites I suggested?
*Where is there any information backing up your viewpoint.
*Are there any articles of interest from respected writers in the MA field?
*Is there any evidence of the effectiveness of Wushu in a modern combat situation? Doesn't have to be an NHB event, or a recorded fight, it can be theoretical - as long as you can prove it.
*How does Wushu work in a combat situation? What principles does it rely on?
*How can Wushu adapt to other practitioners? To grapplers? To defending the sprawl? To knees, headbutts and elbows?

it's perhaps far more complete and efficient than any single traditional style

How so? How is the power generation and agility etc.. better than any single style?

Legendary_Fist

05-09-2002, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by DelicateSound

I would. I have observed at least 3 different classes and the methods and application I found to be VERY underwhelming.

Your whopping 3 classes of wushu experience hardly makes you an authority on the methodology of wushu techniques, or how wushu techniques are applied. That's like me visiting 3 classes of Tai Chi and determining that their methods and application are underwhelming. My "experience" would be considered shoddy in that scenario, just like your "experience" is in this one.

In a self-defence situation the skills learnt there would get you killed. This is not a slander of Wusu - I understand that many places just like the competitive form aspect, and this is fine. But these places were claiming to teach "self-defence". This is misleading, and exploitation is one of the things I hate.

That's your opinion. What "works" in a self-defense scenario is determined by several factors, not just what you learn in a martial arts school. Furthermore, what works for some in a self-defense situation, may not work for another individual.

If there were a universal self-defense system that was 100% reliable, I highly doubt people would be taking the myriad of MA styles available for precisely that purpose. The fact of the matter is what you view as "ineffective" is highly subjective, and when applied to another individual, meaningless.

No, NHB is not the yardstick in which to judge an art's effectiveness, but it is one venue where an art can be tested in a mixed full-contact environment.

This is where we disagree. What occurs in the padded ring of the NHB is not indicative of what occurs in a street situation. Futhermore, the NHB's rules highly favor a certain type of response, which is why so many NHB competitiors cross-train in wrestling, and kickboxing. To compete in a NHB competition, you'd have to train like a NHB competitor. You don't have to train like a NHB competitor to be prepared for a self-defense scenario.

Full-contact? I would use that term loosely. "Full-contact" is no gloves, no cups, no pads, weapons, the whole nine-yards. Very rarely are you going to encounter a muscle-bound thug thoroughly trained in Russian Sambo and Muay Thai kickboxing. It simply doesn't happen. So no, I'd say that NHB competition is far from the yard stick in which to judge the effectiveness of a particulair style. I'd say that NHB is a proving ground for the next "fad" Martial art/sport for MMA fanboys to cross- train in.

*Where are the websites I suggested?

You mean the statistics, or paticipation of wushu in NHB competitions? See above.

*Where is there any information backing up your viewpoint.

That wushu is a fighting art? Simply backtrack through this thread, you'll find the information that what you seek.

*Are there any articles of interest from respected writers in the MA field?

I'm sure if you searched the web, you'll find plently of articles about wushu, its development, and its current status in the world of martial arts.

*Is there any evidence of the effectiveness of Wushu in a modern combat situation? Doesn't have to be an NHB event, or a recorded fight, it can be theoretical - as long as you can prove it.

Once again, that point has been brought up on this thread numerous times, and it's been addressed.

*How does Wushu work in a combat situation? What principles does it rely on?

Same as the former answer.

*How can Wushu adapt to other practitioners? To grapplers? To defending the sprawl? To knees, headbutts and elbows?

Some specifics would be helpful.

Up to now you have successfully questioned my points but you have NOT provided me with any weight to your argument. How is this possibly supposed to convince me.

My "weight" is my wushu experience, which far outdistances your "three class visit", so I think I have a little more knowledge about my art, than you do.

Whether that "convinces you" is none of my concern.

Fu-Pow

05-09-2002, 09:04 PM

http://www.partnersweb.com/masterpan/jpegs/s_pan12.jpg

Here's some wushu fighting application for you guys. Wow that piece of iron looks like its in a lot of pain.

Braden

05-09-2002, 09:16 PM

http://www.beijingwushuteam.com/BeiJing/95/BJbasics.html

Great stuff. :)

Legendary_Fist

05-09-2002, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Braden
http://www.beijingwushuteam.com/BeiJing/95/BJbasics.html

Great stuff. :)

::laughs:: Those aren't the basics of wushu.

wushu chik

05-09-2002, 10:10 PM

Legendary Fist...
I think you seriously need to calm down. This is the same ol' same ol' argument, it's been done to death. No use in keeping the coals burning, if you know what i mean. I have my own personal opinions of the Wushu vs. Traditional argument, but it's SOOOO overdone, it's not even worth it anymore! All in all...CALM DOWN and GET OVER IT...

~Wen~

Legendary_Fist

05-09-2002, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by wushu chik
Legendary Fist...
I think you seriously need to calm down. This is the same ol' same ol' argument, it's been done to death. No use in keeping the coals burning, if you know what i mean. I have my own personal opinions of the Wushu vs. Traditional argument, but it's SOOOO overdone, it's not even worth it anymore! All in all...CALM DOWN and GET OVER IT...

~Wen~

I'm defending my art "Wen".

If you don't like it, don't post on this thread.

Legendary_Fist

05-10-2002, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by wall
Legendary_Fist - if your objective is to inform others about real wushu, then that is an admirable reason to post here and elsewhere. If you objective is (quote from your post) to "defend your art" then that is perhaps a futile and useless mission.[/b]

Actually, its a little of both. However, its clear that both goals are futile. But hey, whateva!

Just enjoy your wushu, and if your teacher does not cover the applications/power delivery/sparring side of wushu then why not complement it with some traditional stile at the same time.

My teacher does cover applications, etc. However, I have always intended to branch out to other styles of Chinese Martial Arts once I get a firm grasp of wushu. Hopefully I'll be in the art as long as you have. ;)

PaulLin

05-10-2002, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Once again, PaulLin and Stacey show their childish bravado and utter ignorance by trashing those that are far more trained and far more DANGEROUS than they are.

I will guarantee each of you that Jet Li or Pan Qing Fu would utterly blow either of you away. I'm not a wushu stylist myself, but I know wushu experts that would willingly fight either of you if you were to challenge them.

PaulLin, you show your lack of skill by judging an art and its practitioners via videotapes and heresay. Didn't your sifu teach you not to judge anybody negatively until you TOUCH HANDS with them? Jiang Jianye makes wushu videotapes and I used to be his student - I'd be happy to oblige you. So will my CLASSMATES.

As far as collecting a bunch of different arts, PaulLin, who are YOU to talk? You practice "Yang Taichi, Xing-Yi, BaGua, BaBuTangLang, ShiaoLing ChinNa, TanTui, BaoDingShuaiChiao, KunLunDanTao, LainBuChuan, LiauHeChuan, and TsonHe". You're no different from the wushu guys that learn different styles of sets.

Challenge? I LIKE challenges, being a traditional man myself. Be careful of what you wish for, PaulLin.

Only a low class MA practicer would show this kind of manner. Go check on the rule of "Shr Chuan Shr Bu Chuan." No wandered you guys are only in Wushu, the ture Traditional CMA should reject your kind of manner as tudi.

Jet Lee? you are not thinking after I have more than 22 years of experiances on my arts that I am like what you are talking to? You must have been hanging around with kids all the time to bluff like that. I know Lee, you can't scare me whit him. You can set it on any time you like. Just because you guys have never seen any good traiditional artist, only the fake or low one, don't mean you can just think Wushu can really accomplish what ture traditional CMA can. Don't forget that I am a Chines myself and I have been to China and checked out Wushu 9 years ago. If you have come up with new things that you have collected form other traditional arts and put them in Wushu, I wouldn't give a dam about them. If you guys have bad experiences with the low traditional CMA out there, told you what, I hate them to gutts too. They brought down Traditional CMA's immage greatly.

And there, I am very different form Wushu people, I lived with my master--my father. And I learned all about how they supposed to be and what is each of the advantages.

I would like to visit Pan in the future if I can, he seems to be an External specialist.

scotty1

05-10-2002, 01:50 AM

I think Wall's first post was very good.

But you are all going round in circles.

A: "The official version of Wushu is crap. Just dance, with no applications. "

B: "Well, yeah mostly, but its not "just dance", its actually very difficult. And some peoples teachers do retain and teach the applications. In fact I've seen some very good Wushu fighters."

A: "All the stuff I've ever seen is crap dance. "

B: "Yes but it depends on the teacher. Some of it is crap dance. But not all. You just haven't experienced the minority of combat applied Wushu. "

A: "Yes but it's just crap dance though isn't it?"

B: :rolleyes: *sigh*

DS - as far as asking for websites etc. what are you looking for, a website about fighting Wushu? Websites mean nothing. Those 3 classes you saw probably had a website. BTW, were they 3 different classes, with different teachers, or 3 of the same class?

There is anecdotal evidence on this thread by Wall, Legendary Fist and a couple of others supporting their views. Now, either some people are deciding not to listen to them or not to believe them.

There are some issues where "documented evidence" is a reasonable request, but I don't think this is one of them.

Carry on...

PaulLin

05-10-2002, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist

::laughs:: Those aren't the basics of wushu.

From your laughing at that, I think you are better than the other Wushu people that I have seen.

PaulLin

05-10-2002, 03:53 AM

First of all, to only focusing on eating the fruits and not care about where they came form, is not a healthy attitude for any kind of learning. Not to mention the life long developments, just how wellingly the master would pass down all arts to students who don't care about the roots are and only care about his/her own guts? 9 years ago, a coach in Peijin told my father as we visited. We first saw the students perform (badly in fulfilling the traditional requirement needs, like a combination of Chinese Opera + Gymnastics). Up on seeing my father shaking his head, the coach told my father: Who says we have no real arts? watch me. The he go on show some forms, very high level in traditional aspect. Then he told my father that he has taught his own tradtional tudi tradtional way, and don't value him up on seeing the Wushu students. He hide many arts and only teach some general skills in Wushu. He don't want to discontinue the tradition lineage. I don't know if now a days that situation has changed.

I think some one can try to find out if any Wushu coach, with tradtional CMA training who has also taught out side of Wushu class, has teaching in Wushu class and out in his own in different ways. Go visit the private school of that coach?

With in the 10 rules of accepting a tudi, there are "hao yung do hen ze bu chuan, and qi shi miea chu ze bu chuan." If following the traditional rules, you L_F are a subject of recting since you violated both.

If the most mentionable things in Taichi is slow movements like you said, you don't know Taichi. The Chen style Taichi is not as slow as you think. There is a reason for it's appearently slow moves and only very advanced practioners can apply Taichi as it was practiced. Lower level in Taichi can only apply it like chungchung or ShiaoLin. Until the internal skills and energy has breaking through the required level, you can't show Taichi's applications in character.

I don't really respect Wushu for it's unvaluing of the original credit. I can't respect the pirating of the traditional CMA. I just hate them, I willnot change that. Unless the subject is not pirating and value the roots. Any one in any system of traditional CMA taught tudi not to value it's lineage, by rule, should be kicked out of the system himself. And that has NOTHING to do with lowering the fighting ability, you can have them both. Don't assume I am one of these book warm whimp out there (I hate them too), I learn all orally and memberized in mind. I don't considered learning form book a proper traditional way any ways.

If you just want to enjoy what you felt fit, nothing to do with me. But if you publicly put your views and feelings into a forum like this, then there will be people try to set things straight. You can't stop that.

PaulLin

05-10-2002, 04:18 AM

If you keep on post in RED and defending Wushu, people will start to think that you are a Communist.

GLW

05-10-2002, 05:38 AM

Finally...

Paul Lin actually hit on the major problem I have with Contemporary Wushu.

It is NOT the technique. Having a traditional teacher who was also one of the originators of Contemporary - and KNOWING what their intent was - and it was NOT to water it down. In fact, the old generation looks at things like the butterfly twists in routines and mentally deduct for it. The intent with them was to standardize on competition judging and apply a scientific approach to training. Long way from that now....

Anyway, the problem is that in Classical Wushu there is a direct teacher student relationship that is very close. With Contemporary Wushu, the student may go from teacher to teacher and learn a bit here, there.... Their physical abilities develop but their understanding of the moves does not...hence the flowery stuff.... even though the construction of the routines does NOT specify that. Their level of respect does not develop either. So, they miss out on one of the big benefits of Classical training.

The problem then compounds because later, the same person becomes a 'coach' and since they do not have that depth, they can offer even less to their group of students.

This is NOT only a Contemporary Wushu problem. The MMA group has it too. Learning respect for others and when to use and more importantly NOT to use what you have learned and how to show courtesy to everyone is simply not taught. Now, many will say that is not the point of Martial training...but if you do not teach how to temper the blade and control it, you will find your creations running amok. It is simply irresponsible.

Now, this is NOT only a Contemporary problem. It is a problem with any group that (a) may not have a fully trained person in charge and (b) does not teach from the core values and ethics first.

KC Elbows

05-10-2002, 05:57 AM

My first real kung fu teacher taught wushu.

I'm probably gonna get flack for that, but there it is.

However, he knew his stuff, and for us fighters, he kept the forms "traditional"(i.e. less of the flashy stuff), unless you wanted to learn some of that stuff.

In addition, as has already been stated, the early wushu routines remained true to the styles, and included applications. In addition, for those who wanted to be able to fight with their kung fu, he pushed sparring.

The fact is, though he learned wushu oftentimes in a non-traditional manner, it benefitted him greatly. He has many stories of traditional stylists trading form with him because they liked something he knew. That was how he learned Sun style tai chi.

Oddly enough, he was fairly traditional. Mind you, he had a traditional chi kung teacher throughout his training, and that probably influenced his teaching style.

So, I respect wushu that remains true to these things. And the non-combat stuff I respect as well, as it usually has combative aspects in it, the practitioners are just not focussed on that side of it. As long as they don't claim to be butt kickers, I'm OK with that.

In my experience, they generally don't make such claims.

Legendary_Fist

05-10-2002, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by PaulLin

From your laughing at that, I think you are better than the other Wushu people that I have seen.

I wasn't laughing at what they were doing, I was laughing at the notion that those are the basics. The basics of wushu are stances, kicking and punching drills, and forms. The aerial stuff is for advanced students who have a strong understanding of the basics.

As for Tai Chi, I was using it as an example Paul, because DS said that he could guage the essence of wushu by watching 3 classes. I used Tai Chi as an example, because there's no way you can guage the essence of Tai Chi, or any martial art for that matter, by watching 3 classes.

rogue

05-10-2002, 11:08 AM

TTT

GLW

05-10-2002, 11:17 AM

For some clarity...a GOOD Contemporary Wushu school should do the following in a class:

(1) Beginning Ya Tui (leg pressing with a stretching bar).
(2) upper and lower body warm ups
(3) Basic Stance work
Ma Bu
Zha Quan Punch (Smashing Stamping fist to Ma Bu...then to Gong Bu
Gong Bu punching
Pu Bu (crouch stance training)
Xubu (Scissor stance)
Xebu (sitting stance)
(4) a bit more stretching and things like jumping, fish jumping, etc...
(5) line drills
straight leg kicks
Slap kicks
Side kicks
Crescent Kicks (inner and outer)
etc....
(6) puching line drills
straight reverse punch stepping
round punch
hook punch
upper cut
etc.....
(7) combination drills
slap kick to jumping kick to scissor stance punch for example
etc....

All of this can take 1 our 15 minutes to 2 hours. And there have been NO forms done.

Then you hit forms.

That is more drills. sections learning new stuff....

Now, interesting enough, a traditional northern class is pretty much the same....

But if you do applications, you do all of this and then do an hour of things like Pai Dar (body conditioning for getting hit), drills, Wrestling, bag training, weight training....

So, if any class is not doing the first part - they are not doing much. That part is all called Jibengong (Basic work). Traditional and Contemporary is the same for this... - at least with the old school coaches.

The big problem with all fighting in schools is this way:
Student comes in and spends X hours a class on basics for many months. Now they want to learn to use it. Traditionally, they would continue doing X hours a class on basics and ADD Y hours on applications. The more you learn, the more you have to practice.

In many schools now, they start with X hours a class in basics, then when fighting is added in, instead of X + Y hours, it is X-Y hours in basics and Y hours in applications.

No wonder the level drops...

But the point of these illustrations is that if basics are not a key focus of all classes (Traditional and Contemporary) it is a garbage class. AND...the difference if you do a northern style between the Contemporary basics and the Traditional basics....with a GOOD teacher....try to live on the difference. With a BAD or MEDIOCRE teacher....there can be an ocean of differences.

DelicateSound

05-10-2002, 11:20 AM

Your whopping 3 classes of wushu experience hardly makes you an authority on the methodology of wushu techniques, or how wushu techniques are applied.

That is correct. But I can only judge what I have seen myself. And all I have seen is sh!te. If you watch 3 Brazil VS Argentina games and each time Brazil thrash the Argies 4-0, aren't you going to presume that Brazil are far the better team?

That's your opinion. What "works" in a self-defense scenario is determined by several factors, not just what you learn in a martial arts school. Furthermore, what works for some in a self-defense situation, may not work for another individual.

If there were a universal self-defense system that was 100% reliable, I highly doubt people would be taking the myriad of MA styles available for precisely that purpose. The fact of the matter is what you view as "ineffective" is highly subjective, and when applied to another individual, meaningless.

Many arts work in a self-defence situation, some don't. I am asking you to provide some theory/evidence of your art working. You expect me to bow down to your belief through mere internet waffle. If I told you that Origami was an effective art for self-defence, and you attended three origami classes and found this to be untrue, would me saying "there is no universal system but origami does work, it's all subjective" convince you?!

You don't have to train like a NHB competitor to be prepared for a self-defense scenario.

"Full-contact" is no gloves, no cups, no pads, weapons, the whole nine-yards. Very rarely are you going to encounter a muscle-bound thug thoroughly trained in Russian Sambo and Muay Thai kickboxing.

I agree wholeheartedly - and it's good to see that people out there recognise this. However, you see a kickboxer in NHB and you can see his style against others. You can see HOW it works, not just IF it works. When I first took Judo I was convinced to take it because I could watch people spar, watch them train, to see HOW their art worked. Out of the 3 Wushu classes I saw, none sparred. Therefore I am asking you to describe HOW Wushu works. Is it really that difficult? Just some principles please..

You mean the statistics, or paticipation of wushu in NHB competitions? See above.

There are none. That is useless information.

That wushu is a fighting art? Simply backtrack through this thread, you'll find the information that what you seek.

No. The specific information I require is not present in this thread.

I'm sure if you searched the web, you'll find plently of articles about wushu, its development, and its current status in the world of martial arts.

Why should I take the trouble. Isn't this thread aiming to gain "respect" for Wushu? I don't care where Wushu stands. You obviously do.

Some specifics would be helpful.

Ok then: Here's one. As a Wushu guy how would you deal with a tackle from an accomplished grappler? Simple tackle. If I ask anyone here they can give me some info. Anything from loose principles to a full on step-by-step guide.

[Color=firebrick]My "weight" is my wushu experience, which far outdistances your "three class visit", so I think I have a little more knowledge about my art, than you do.

Whether that "convinces you" is none of my concern.

Then why post this?!!!?!?!?!?! :rolleyes:

KC Elbows

05-10-2002, 11:28 AM

DS,

Old school wushu IS traditional kung fu, just standardized. Its the very new versions that lost their martial component in some schools, probably because of the PRC's need for kung fu to not involve fighting.

However, the BEST iron body practitioner I've known, and I've known quite a few of them, was a wushu coach. Zhang Hongzhao in Chicago, his arms are like corded steel. He also had old san shao/kuosho pics of his early years(I don't know now if it was sna shao or kuoshu, but same difference). And the techniques work in a way that depends on what style he's fighting with, just like the rest of us.

This guy also rocked at aerials. He had a bone spur on his heel, but he wanted to teach my friend eagle, which has quite a bit of aerial stuff in it. One day, he was doing eagle when class started, aerials and all. He sat down to check his heel, took off his sock, and there were a ton of accupuncture needles in his ankle, folded under an ace bandage.

Wushu is like everything else. If you can find the good stuff, you're on your way, if not, hopefully you start to get a taste for the good stuff.

DelicateSound

05-10-2002, 11:37 AM

KC: You know me. You know I know that :)

Any art can be good - if the teacher and student are right. Even BJJ can work :D

In a way I feel like saying "OK, yes, Wushu CAN be good, it's a shame that 90% of it is commercialised crap"

But hell, if a guy comes on here and tries to demand everyones respect for his art, I'm going to argue. Saying that:

the ignorance on this form regarding Wushu is saddening

..is not only a generalisation, but a slander to the board, and to those of us that pride themselves on being open-minded about all arts.

In all honesty, I never have seen good Wushu, but I'm pretty sure it exists, and I'm pretty sure it is effective.

However, for the sole reason mentioned above, I will fight for every sentance, every letter, every fullstop.

Because NO-ONE has the right to tell me how I should think.

KC Elbows

05-10-2002, 11:45 AM

BJJ can work?

wushu chik

05-10-2002, 12:02 PM

Legendary_Fist-

It seems at the beginning of this thread you were looking to gain respect for your style, and let everyone know how you felt. In the last FEW PAGES, you have been stumbling over yourself TRYING to make an argument. AND FOR WHAT?? The sake of arguing? Like i said before....it's the SAME ol argument over and over. Stop being an ass, and get over it. If you like training in Wushu, then train....if you don't....take up a new style. But stop WHINING.

~Wen~

ewallace

05-10-2002, 12:04 PM

Man it's great to have you back wendy.

Legendary_Fist

05-10-2002, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by DelicateSound
KC: You know me. You know I know that :)

Any art can be good - if the teacher and student are right. Even BJJ can work :D

In a way I feel like saying "OK, yes, Wushu CAN be good, it's a shame that 90% of it is commercialised crap"

But hell, if a guy comes on here and tries to demand everyones respect for his art, I'm going to argue. Saying that:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the ignorance on this form regarding Wushu is saddening
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

..is not only a generalisation, but a slander to the board, and to those of us that pride themselves on being open-minded about all arts.

Hardly a generalization, considering the types of responses that were being posted regarding wushu practice as "A useless dance with no fighting application." Then when asked "Had you yourself practiced wushu?" The answer was always a resounding "no", or "I've watched 3 wushu classes." That is ignorance, whether you like it or not.

If this board has no desire to be slandered, then perhaps it should attempt to live up to the open-mindedness it preaches.

And you can not create an open-minded opinion about an art by watching 3 classes of it.

DelicateSound

05-10-2002, 02:07 PM

If this board has no desire to be slandered, then perhaps it should attempt to live up to the open-mindedness it preaches.

The board does not "preach" open mindedness, merely a few of us like to think we can live up to it.

And you can not create an open-minded opinion about an art by watching 3 classes of it.

Of course you can. I gave the art all the time I think it deserved. I observed once, it was crap, I put it down to a bad school. When I found the same at another school, I tried again. 3rd time I gave up trying.

What do you suggest I should do, devote my time to hunting down a decent school for an art I have no desire in learning? No offence mate but I have better things to do. I have found the art that I like. It is not Wushu. The time spent looking into Wushu could have been used far better - I could have looked at Ninjitsu, Aikido or Muay Thai. All I found at Wushu classes was bullcrap. Why waste my time.

One question: What exactly was the aim of this thread?

Brad

05-10-2002, 02:29 PM

I think all that can be said, has been said for now... time to let the thread die...

It's just turned into a bunch of "is too!" and "is not!" But, I did learn a few things sifting through all the mud slinging :cool: Even though arguing on a message board can be fun(though I'm terrible at debate), it's important not to take it too seriously. So a few people we'll probably never meet trash our art. Big deal. Just train hard, get good, and then you can prove yourself through your actions...

rogue

05-10-2002, 02:52 PM

What's been established.

DelicateSound has taken 3 Wu Shu (bless you) classes.

BJJ may work.

Wendy is back.

And Wu shu still isn't getting the respect Legendary_fist thinks it should.

That was worth ten pages of posts! :D

KC Elbows

05-10-2002, 03:04 PM

A little more about this bjj working thing. What's that about?

rogue

05-10-2002, 03:07 PM

I don't know, it's something I read on the web. Has anybody ever really seen BJJ being used in any kind of a fight, street or ring?

Brad

05-10-2002, 03:10 PM

lol @ Rouge :D

Since this does seem to be the most active thread I thought I'd put a link up to a very cool Baji vid that's from a website RAF posted over on the internal forum:

http://www.wutang.org/styles/demo/baji_film.wmv

It's got footage of the late grandmaster Liu Yuen Chiao and more very cool Baji

Hope no one minds the offtopic post, lol :D Just thought I'd get some use out of this thread before it goes completely to the crapper!

More film can be seen at htttp://www.wutanorg.com !!!

I'll also start a new topic for this :)

rogue

05-10-2002, 03:16 PM

I read this thread and the Jet Li one all in one sitting. I believe that this act killed more brain cells than all the drinking I did in my younger days.

Le nOObi

05-10-2002, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist

Maybe you should read the posts that's already been posted on this thread, before you decide add your stupidity to it.

First of all that sentence should be
"Maybe you should read the posts that's already been posted on this thread, before you decide to add your stupidity to it"
As a rule when you call someone stupid you dont want to make grammatical mistakes.

Second of all My post concerning wushu was perfectly well informed. I did say i thought wushu was a bad martial art
i also said that my views on wushu are "My views".
No offense but wushu is exactly as my post made it out to be, ancient styles with many of their applications removed. Wushu litterally means martial arts but the wushu created by the peoples republic of china is very forms competition based.
Wushu still does have some application but what exactly is the point of studying forms competitions based P.R.C. wushu when you could study the martial arts the different styles of wushu take their names from?

I have to admit that i have not read the vast majority of the posts on the giant thread but from the posts if read of yours it seems like you believe Wushu to be created for self defense purposes which it clearly was not! Here is my advice to you, study TRADITIONAL cha'chuan or one of the other islamic longfist styles on which chang-chuan is based then compare it to wushu chang-chuan see if you still think wushu is effective in self defense!

below is my post so you dont have to go back to figure out what im talking about.

"My views on wushu are these, good thing to take bad martial art. Wushu was pretty much created by the P.R.C. to be a replacement to actual kung-fu not a supplement. Wushu will make you stronger/ more flexible but it does but alot of stress on the knees and can mess them up. Wushu styles are nothing more than versions of actual martial arts with most of the applications removed. Many people dont know this but changchuan is based on a number of northern islamic longfist(changquan) styles. This is the reason i dont like wushu at all because it gives the traditional martial arts that it imitates a bad name. "

Le nOObi

05-10-2002, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Brad
lol @ Rouge :D

Since this does seem to be the most active thread I thought I'd put a link up to a very cool Baji vid that's from a website RAF posted over on the internal forum:

http://www.wutang.org/styles/demo/baji_film.wmv

It's got footage of the late grandmaster Liu Yuen Chiao and more very cool Baji

Hope no one minds the offtopic post, lol :D Just thought I'd get some use out of this thread before it goes completely to the crapper!

More film can be seen at htttp://www.wutanorg.com !!!

I'll also start a new topic for this :)

Coincedentally im just now studying under Kay chi leung one of liu yun chiao's disciples.

wushu chik

05-10-2002, 08:31 PM

Thanks guys! It's good to be missed!

I honestly don't think there was ANY point to this thread...and I honestly think there won't be any point when it's all over! But, you know, this thread will probably beat Tae Li's Jet Li thread....JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT!

~Wen~

P.S. I still say my Capofudo™ would ROCK wushu anyday!!!!

PaulLin

05-11-2002, 12:17 AM

WuShu not = Martial Arts. Wu = Martial, Shu=technique or skill.

WuYi would be Martial Arts.

Even though I don't respect Wushu as much as traiditional CMA, but I would put Wushu above TKD and Karate.

On BJJ, you can't stood on foot, you can't counter na, or you can't hit the presure points, then it is useful.

Raffi

05-11-2002, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
I'm not sure if Raffi changed it but about two years ago when I checked out his website he was saying that kung fu is just a mixture of karate and a little of wu shu and that wu shu was much faster and flexible and superior to kung fu. The Chinese martial arts world has suffered greatly, even some styles have been lost, and it was the communist government that did it to itself.

I don't know where you got that from because thats not something I've ever thought or said. How the hell would anyone think that to begin with, seeing as Japanese arts are based on Chinese in the first place (just as the lingistics, religions and customs of Japan are in part of Chinese origin).

You probably heard me talking about Kempo and mistook what I was trying to say.

I also said that there are a few so-called traditional wushu experts (aka 'kungfu people') claim to know lethal techniques they never use,etc and are inflexible, slow and out of shape. Can't do a decent stance if their lives depended on it etc. In that case if put in a fight a person who practices contemporary wushu can run circles around chubby til he falls over from exhaustion (basically recounting a fact that we all know, that conditioning is a HUGE aspect of fighting, and that unfortunately a lot of traditionalists are lacking in that department). By its very nature contemporary wushu requires much higher standards of physical conditioning. (again, not ALLL traditionalists are like this, I'm saying there are SOME, and I'm sure a lot of them are reading this right now saying "hey, thats my chi-ball, not a pot-belly!") -- this is an indictment of the state of traditional wushu in America, has nothing to do with the style itself.

Now I hope I haven't started a flame war here or anything, but my name was mentioned and quoted incorrectly so I thought I would clear it up. I actually agree with a lot thats been said here by people on both sides of the fence.

One thing that would really help is if people started using the correct terminology[since personally I'm pretty anal about that kind of stuff], since a lot of people seem to get upset that "wushu" is 'replacing' "kungfu", or "taking over the name" or "misleading people" or stuff like that. If you called traditional "traditional", and called contemporary "contemporary", people would know the difference... they're both chinese martial art forms, one is the origin and one is a contemporary version of it. AND let us ALSO note that contemporary wushu includes EVERYTHING that is contemporary and based on traditional wushu. That means SANSHOU competition, that means TAOLU competition, that means modern self-defense stuff, that means military fighting stuff, that means police beating techniques, etc. etc.

-Raffi