Southern Praying Mantis Discussion

[MantisWill]

Since I don't have my own site and I can't create a new forum or folder, I just wanted to start a free-discussion thread for practitioners (and the curious-minded) of all branches of Southern Praying Mantis Gong Fu.

NOTICE FOR FLAMERS/DETRACTORS: I don't think SPM is superior to any style. I don't think it's the best in a street fight. I don't think it's the best in the ring/cage/whatever. I don't think it's best for a death-match. I don't think it is the purest classical style. I don't think it's a complete martial art. I simply like it, practice it, and wish to speak with other like-minded individuals.

To start things off:

Bio: I practice Jook Lum (Bamboo Temple) SPM

Statement: SPM is the classical CMA that I feel is closest to more modern, practical fighting styles.

Question: Does anybody know how many forms there are that have been passed down since the beginning? Or at all, for that matter?

Another Question: Is SPM more suited for smaller or larger individuals?

Thanks

Will

[dre_doggX]

You said you dont think it is a complete martial art style???
I think that any style can be complete if you look at it in a right way.?
but tell me what do you like about SPM and how does southern parying mantis and kungfu in general compare to ninjutsu I always wanted to know. I know the first ninja families where taught by Chinese mystic preist(assumly Taoist but could of been buddhist to). Anyway Kungfu of some kind a part , but I think it was the philosophy (assumeing Taoism) that lead to Ninjutsu over all. I study tai chi chuan and that is deeply rooted in Taoism to. However alot of Tai chi sytlist uses their knowledge to heal and such, where ninjutsu use it in espionage. The same theory that is used to duck and remotion an attack can duck and remotion and agruement, or intrigation.

So I guess the only question is who could/does Southern Praying Mantis do this.

[mantis-1]

I am sorry but I don't understand a word in that last thread and am not sure what you are asking.

mantis-1

[sean_stonehart]

I didn't either.

I think he's trying to trace the roots of ninjutsu to its Chinese origins. That's easy... go ask at E-budo (http://www.e-budo.com) or at Kutaki (http://www.kutaki.org) . E-budo has practitioners of Bujinkan, Genbukan & Jinenkan on board. Kutaki is strictly Bujinkan people only.

[JMagnano]

I think SPM is suited for short individuals since I've been told styles like White Crane is suited for taller individuals. By the way if you want to visit an interesting and fun site, visit James Sun's 8 Step Praying Mantis Kung Fu site, it's at www.8step.com

Have Fun,

JOE

[MantisWill]

I am discovering it is REALLY hard to find people to talk about SOUTHERN Praying Mantis with. <sigh>

[mantis-1]

MantisWill,
Which Lineage of JookLum are you studying. I studied a small amount of JookLum, but it was a combination style and it was mantis that i really liked so I changed schools so concentrate on Chow Gar, ok I'm quickly going to answer the questions posted as I am trying to leave work and get to training.

Mantis suited to certain sized people...I personally dont think it matters, in our pai we have small skinny guys and huge well built guys if the techinques are learnt correct then strengh is not an issue. It is mostly in the mind if you are facing a big guy and you feel intimidated then you have lost already, it all comes down to confidence, no confidence no kung fu.

As for forms to tell you the truth I am not sure most of the mantis sets started off with a few 3/4 core forms (so I have been told)Its difficult to work out how many forms are in Chow Gar as some have 2nd and 3rd stages and then there are the fighting forms and weapon forms not necissarily in that order.The best thing is to ask your sifu or you could look over the f blanco artical its on the net somewhere that had a lot of interesting info, but dont take it all as the truth.

Do I think it is closest to todays modern fighting styles, JKD??? (if this is what you mean) I don't think it is like any other fighting style other than it's Hakka relatives pak mai, lung ying (i probably spelt both those wrong sorry) I remember starting out in MA's tried Karate,Ju Jit Su and kickboxing. Most of these where similar in there methods of counter then strike/attack, in Chow Gar and JookLum the equasion is broken down to just strike/attack incomming attacks are countered with an attack of our own making it very efficient.

[dre_doggX]

You said you didnt think of it as a complete system or anything special, but what I was saying is how does Southern Mantis Compare to other martial arts. How can you find similarites between them and how can you adapt the principles of SPM to generate attributes like something in Northern Shaolin, Judo, etc.

I mean finding similarites between SPM and another style by using the concepts and principles of physics that are in SPM

silimar principles + modification (could)= similar movements, skills etc.

this is where Ninjutsu I think, comes into play because Chinese kungfu stylist and there Japanese disiples modifed in used innavation to adapt there art.




ok in short simply terms.
What can you do with learn in Southern Praying Mantis?

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by MantisWill


Statement: SPM is the classical CMA that I feel is closest to more modern, practical fighting styles.

Will

Do you mean in application or practicality?
If you mean practicality i dont think thats fair i mean styles such as pa-kua, baji, choy li fut, wing chun and hung gar have been quite time tested and i dont think its fair simply to say southern praying mantis is more pratical. I dont think you can say any martial art that contains principles as SPM does it can be incomplete. Forms are not set in stone and you cannot say these are all the techniques that can exist in SPM simply because they are all the techniques in forms. Why not apply SPM principles to groundfighting?

[Le nOObi]

oh and sorry for using inference in a reply as i now realize i did.

[MantisWill]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mantis-1
[B]MantisWill,
Which Lineage of JookLum are you studying.


Here's my branch of the family tree:
1) Som Dot - founder (Si-Jo) of Jook Lum Branch (certainly). Possibly founder of whole SPM system (some dispute here).

2) Lee Sum See - next Master (and then Grandmaster) under Som Dot at Bamboo Temple. Lived to be 100.

3) Chung Yei Jung - learned under Lee Sum See in Bamboo Temple; opened school in Ping Som in the 1910's. Gave name of Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Pai to system.

4) Lum Wing Fay (Lum Sang See) - first learned under Master Chung Yei Jung. Then learned under (then) Grandmaster Lee Sum See. Possessed knowledge and practice of entire system, including some extra Qi Gongs. Brought Jook Lum to USA. Recieved altar and became Grandmaster after Lee Sum and Chung Yei died in fairly quick succession. My Si-Gung (teacher's teacher).

5) Louie Jack Man (Ah Louie) - learned under Lum Sang in NYC Chinatown. Admitted into Lum Sang's second group of disciples. Was Si-Hing (older brother) to Mark Gin Foon (current Grandmaster per Lum Sang, who has since died in 1991). My Sifu in Philadelphia (I'm in LA now, but he'll always be my teacher). I learned primarily under 2 of his students (Maurice Tunstall and, boy I can't remember his name) who have been studying for 15-20 years with Sifu, though Louie Sifu would sometimes show forms and play hands.

6) Me, William Kilmer. Studied for very brief period. I know only enough to know I want to learn more. My deepest goal is to use SPM as a path towards making myself a better person. Someday I'd like to go to the Jook Lum temple, pay respects, and maybe witness some SPM in its homeland. My more shallow goal is to be good enought to be taught the 108 form and some SPM-specific internal training.

[MantisWill]

Originally posted by dre_doggX

ok in short simply terms.
What can you do with learn in Southern Praying Mantis? [/B]

I'm having trouble understanding your language and meaning. But, here goes: You can learn to use your internal power and your opponents own power to defeat him. SPM is a soft style. Sort of a cross between..well, I dunno. You learn quick, protective footwork, fast hands, rapid strikes, centerline protection, sensitivety training, body conditioning, "boxing" tactics, etc...

[MantisWill]

I'll address two points here.

1) When I said it's not a complete martial art, I was only trying to keep the flamers off the thread. A sure way of getting a lot of guff is by saying, "My style has it all." You can take what you learn in SPM and apply it to anything martial in nature, and even to non-martial situations. So, if that makes it complete in your mind, so be it. I just meant that, it, like most styles, doesn't address every possible way to defend yourself (the only purpose) in every situation. It's impossible to learn all of that in 1 lifetime; that's why martial "sciences" (to quote myself from another thread) are a lifelong journey.

2) I guess all that I really meant about the "moderness" of SPM was that when I was auditing a TON of schools to determine where I would practice next, I felt that SPM reminded me of Western Boxing, Krav Maga, and bare-knuckles fighting most. You know, protect the soft tissues and hit first, hit often, hit to win. Just my observation.

[Le nOObi]

Oh okay!
Sorry i went off on you like that especially since you obviously meant things differently then i thought you did!

[JMagnano]

Originally posted by MantisWill
I am discovering it is REALLY hard to find people to talk about SOUTHERN Praying Mantis with. <sigh>


I know it is and there are a few places on the web to talk about SPM. It's even tougher to find places to talk about ones own style but one place to read about 8step praying mantis is James Sun's page 8step.com. This forum is really good and is most welcome for talking about SPM. I wish you luck as it can be frustrating to find someone to talk about SPM with.


JOE

[mantis-1]

There is a specific SPM forum which you will have to apply to for membership, it doesn't cost but your background/legitamacy will be checked. You could find out about this forum through Steve T Richards he's the Disciple to Grandmaster Lee-Lien: Lee-Yin-Sing Pai Kwangsi Jook-Lum. Do a member search for him and mail him to ask about membership,

Goodluck

[sanjia]

mantis-1 : "You could find out about this forum through Steve T Richards he's the Disciple to Grandmaster Lee-Lien: Lee-Yin-Sing Pai Kwangsi Jook-Lum. Do a member search for him and mail him to ask about membership,"

I think you will find he is no longer a member of the forum, plus he has changed his e-mail addresses.
BTW if you happen to have his new e-mail I would appreciate it (by e-mail of course) I need to get in touch with him.

Mark S

[mantis-1]

I'll look around for it I don't have it on hand

[GAZ]

I am new to martial art and i was thinking of starting up Praying Mantis but which one shall i do. Can anyone please tell me what the difference between the difference styles of Praying Mantis? Any help would be much appreciated.

[mantis-1]

Ok I’m not going to go into too much detail, and for any northern mantis practitioners please correct me if I am wrong as northern mantis is not my style.The southern branches of mantis are specifically short range systems with it’s northern counterparts seem more geared to a longer range, this maybe due to the lack of high footwork in the southern systems. From what I can gather as I stated before northern is not my style, there are far fewer techniques in the southern systems i.e. There are ho high kicks and fewer stances. Also if I am correct in saying (as I have not come across it within CG southern mantis) southern mantis lacks the trademark ‘mantis hook’ found in the northern systems. Southern mantis emphasises the borrowing of your opponents power and redirecting it back, there is also a lack of ‘blocks’ within the systems breaking down the need to block then counter, simply attack with a counter attack. The northern varieties seem more energetic with a larger range of movements to there applications. I don’t know about the power generation within northern mantis but specific exercises and lines of movement through forms helps the southern practitioner to develop a shock or short power. This allows attacks to originate from wherever the hands happen to be, there is no need to draw back or chamber the attack. Well I have gone on long enough so I will let someone else have their say and hopefully some of the northern guys will contribute aswell.

[GAZ]

Thanks 4 the info Mantis 1, but can you tell me does SPM use DIM MAK because I read some where that PM is sometimes called Acupunture Boxing. Also do you know of any good places to train in London?

[MantisWill]

Mantis-1: Pretty good description. SPM *does* use the mantis fist, just not a lot.

GAZ: Yes, SPM does have Dim Mak, but you won't learn it for a very long time and usually only if you're the Sifu's top student or so.

[TenTigers]

Can you go into a thorough description of the forms? I have only learned sam bo gin, (two different versions)but have seen sup bot dim, and was taught some of it. I have heard many different versions of how these forms were created. Some say the next form is 36 points, then 72 points followed by disciple only form, 108 points, which is a combination of the previous two, including the dim mak striking. In some systems, such as Ngoh Mei P'ai, the 36 points refer to 36 dim mak points broken into three groups of nine-nine for paralysis, nine for mute-or bai-hei, and nine for death. Any similarities? I know different SPM styles have different forms, Chow Ga having quite a few, and Poo Yee's SPM having several as well, any input-without being polotical? -gee that's a hard one!

[TenTigers]

Yes, we certainly wouldn't want to be 'polotical' now, would we? Dang, I need a spell check!

[MantisWill]

When it's up, this site has an awesome history of SPM, including a list of forms for the different branches: http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/ martart/wushu/sm.html

[MantisWill]

Hate when it does that:

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/ martart/wushu/sm.html

[mantis-1]

Depends where you live, I study Chow Gar Southern mantis, we have classes accross London.

Hounslow on mondays

Old street on Tuesdays

Hammersmith on Thursdays

Check out the web site, the tuesday classes won't be on there yet as it is a new class.

www.chowgar.freewebspace.com

Our system uses short range shock powers that deliver accurate strikes to nerve points (dim mak). As for the forms within the chow system.
Saam Bo Gin (Three step arrow) this is our foundation form and has 3 levels.
Saam Jin Yui Kui (Three step shake off the bridge)
Saam Bo Pai Kui (Three step slicing bridge)
Saam Bo Pin Kui (Three step level arm)
Fut Sau (buddhist hands) similar to your 108 point form tentigers
Yum Yearn Kum La Sau (Ying Yang seizing hands)
Kau Da Sau (Continuous hitting hands)

There are also chi Gung Forms
Sup Bat Um Gen Sau (18 internal dark hands)
Sup Baat Yau Loong (Eighteen Swimming Dragons)

There is also the 36 section 2 man fighting form along with other forms I'm sure I don't know and of course the weapon forms. And all the training chongs.

But I'm sure there is so much I haven't even heard of but it gives you an idea of our system

Good luck and maybe we will see you at training one day Gaz.

[GAZ]

Mantis1: I actually live in Hounslow, can you give me an address or phone number please?

[mantis-1]

Gaz check your pvt messages..

Regards

[GAZ]

Cheers 4 that info mantis1, i was going to send a private message but it wouldn't let me. Hope to see you down there soon.

[mixxalot]

Yeah I agree, each style of kung fu has its merits. A master of one form
whether it be tai chi, choy li fut or praying mantis can easily defend against attacks. Each one has a flavor unique to itself. I like the cool claw hands in praying mantis combined with monkey style footwork. I just wish that a master would open up a praying mantis studio in northern california! We have plenty of other schools on tae kwon do and karate but not one that teaches SPM or monkey style gung fu!

[NorthernMantis]

Mixxalot-

I think you mistook it for the northern mantis styles. The southern mantis styles use a differnt type of footwork and power generation and from what I've seen they don't use the same claw that we do.

[mantis-1]

We don't have the same claw/hook hands although some will say we do but I know I havn't seen it in CG SPM, but we do have our southern versions and also have some monkey footwork but if I am correct in saying these I think are found in some of the more advanced Chi Kung sets (18 swimming dragons) but thats a guess as I don't know the set myself.

[Gum Gong]

Are any of you SPM guys going to the Tai Chi Legacy tournament in Texas in July?



Jon

[diego]

goto my forum and checkout the links thread, Have you been to steveR's tibetsite?, i was going to emial the link but you dont accept that nor pm's. Keep it on the hush unless he mentions otherwise:)
Peace

[GAZ]

Can anyone tell me what "Iron Shirt" is?

[JMagnano]

Originally posted by GAZ
I am new to martial art and i was thinking of starting up Praying Mantis but which one shall i do. Can anyone please tell me what the difference between the difference styles of Praying Mantis? Any help would be much appreciated.


For starters why don't you pick up a copy of the CURRENT Kung Fu Qigong Magazine now out. I just got mine in the mail and I'm sure it's now at the newstand. This month there are articles on the various styles of Mantis. You can get a good base of information on mantis by taking a look at this months Kung Fu Magazine. If you want to look at one of the styles I think is BEST have a look at Grandmaster James Sun's www.8step.com on 8 Step Praying Mantis.

And if you want to save some money and always have the latest info on any style-Subscribe to Kung Fu Qigong Magazine.

Joseph T. Magnano :D

[JMagnano]

Originally posted by mixxalot
Yeah I agree, each style of kung fu has its merits. A master of one form
whether it be tai chi, choy li fut or praying mantis can easily defend against attacks. Each one has a flavor unique to itself. I like the cool claw hands in praying mantis combined with monkey style footwork. I just wish that a master would open up a praying mantis studio in northern california! We have plenty of other schools on tae kwon do and karate but not one that teaches SPM or monkey style gung fu!


I love to dance which is one of the reasons I love Kung Fu.

Bruce Lee said he loved to dance too.:cool:

[NorthernMantis]

Mantis-1

I think I know what you mean. To tell the truth I found southern mantis interesting after I saw some guys form Henry Poo Yee's school up close. I like the whole mantis flavor they had going. Pretty neat stuff.

[JMagnano]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Mantis-1

I think I know what you mean. To tell the truth I found southern mantis interesting after I saw some guys form Henry Poo Yee's school up close. I like the whole mantis flavor they had going. Pretty neat stuff.


If your really looking to study a great style try 8 Step. What southern style does Henry Poo Yee teach? If you want to find out more about 8 step go to www.8step.com where you'll find info on James Sun's 8 Step Southern Mantis.

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

JMagnano,

8 Step Mantis is a offshoot from Northern Mantis, not Southern Mantis which is a different system. Henry Poo Yee is from the Jook Lum (Bamboo Temple) branch of Southern Mantis.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by GOLDEN ARMOR
JMagnano,

8 Step Mantis is a offshoot from Northern Mantis, not Southern Mantis which is a different system. Henry Poo Yee is from the Jook Lum (Bamboo Temple) branch of Southern Mantis.

Actually 8step mantis is mantis just a different family but of the same style. All northern mantis styles are related and are considered as mantis, just different variations. The difference is that some favor certain elements more i.e. stomping, quicker footwork, etc.

There's 7 star ,which is considered the closest to the original mantis,8step,plumflower,6 harmony, taiji, plumflower taiji,secret door and a couple of others.

[mixxalot]

One is called Eagle Claw versus Mantis. I wonder how you punch with a fist with one finger sticking out? How do mantis kung fu martial artists use this style to attack without breaking the finger or hands? Just curious.

[SPMantisHands]

Originally posted by MantisWill
I am discovering it is REALLY hard to find people to talk about SOUTHERN Praying Mantis with. <sigh>

Aloha Will

If you or other artists reading this forum are genuinely interested in seeing the system in it's original form, we invite you to a 2 seminar at the Blaisedale in Honolulu on July 13th and 14th, 2002.

Master Gin Foon Mark (the Direct Linage 5th Generation World Master of the style), will be demonstrating and teaching SPM Kung Fu, 6 sounds Chi Kung, Calligraphy and SPM Chin Na techniques.

You are welcome to join us on this RARE visit to Hawaiian shores by Master Gin Foon Mark, please see the "Hawaii Branch" Link for more details at http://www.masterginfoonmark.com .

Sincerely
Andy Heaton

SPM Hawaii Branch

[JMagnano]

Originally posted by GOLDEN ARMOR
JMagnano,

8 Step Mantis is a offshoot from Northern Mantis, not Southern Mantis which is a different system. Henry Poo Yee is from the Jook Lum (Bamboo Temple) branch of Southern Mantis.


Yes it did come from the North (Plum Blossom I believe) but 8 Step IS a Southern System. And 8 step is Bamboo Forest Temple. But I like 8 step but who really cares as long as it's martial arts.

[JMagnano]

Originally posted by JMagnano



I love to dance which is one of the reasons I love Kung Fu.

Bruce Lee said he loved to dance too.:cool:

I like the monkey moves in SPM but don't tell the monkees they might get upset!

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by mixxalot
One is called Eagle Claw versus Mantis. I wonder how you punch with a fist with one finger sticking out? How do mantis kung fu martial artists use this style to attack without breaking the finger or hands? Just curious.

Strikes are done with the wrist when the hooks are formed but northern mantis has punches also. They are also done with the fingers to soft areas such as the eyes and the throat.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by JMagnano



Yes it did come from the North (Plum Blossom I believe) but 8 Step IS a Southern System. And 8 step is Bamboo Forest Temple. But I like 8 step but who really cares as long as it's martial arts.


Umm I don't mean to be rude but 8 step is northern,trust me on this, and has no ties to southern mantis. I think you mught have confused it ith some other style perhaps?

[greendragon]

SPM mantis fist : thumb behind forefinger or thumb on top of forefinger, which for when or why ?

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Retracted index finger in preparatory ginger fist formation, with thumb-on-top for contact acceleration hits. With or wthout wrist snapping and knuckle impacting downwardly. Depends on orientation of wrist to target. Dim-mak or simple pressure point striking.

'Standard' Phoenix fist form is useful also of course - so not either but both and more.

see: www.south-mantis-kung-fu.info (fist forms gallery).

Tao.

[greendragon]

Tao, thanks for the great link!!

[greendragon]

does Henry Poo Yee give a good seminar ? I've had a little SPM, not much, can an outsider benefit ?

[108kuen]

If you have ANY interest in spm at all, you owe it to yourself to see Yee sifu in action. He is an amazing martial artist, and if you go with an open mind, you can learn a lot from him.

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

No problem, the server is not showimg the sequence properly on that site.

Try: www.tibetankungfu.com (Fist Forms -1 Gallery)

Tao.

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Scratch the above:

www.south-mantis-kung-fu.info

is working OK now.

Tao.

[mantis-1]

Originally posted by JMagnano



Yes it did come from the North (Plum Blossom I believe) but 8 Step IS a Southern System. And 8 step is Bamboo Forest Temple. But I like 8 step but who really cares as long as it's martial arts.


I am sorry dude but you are confused a bit I think, 8 step is not a southern mantis system. I have just looked over the 8 step web site and I am afraid it looks nothing like any of the southern mantis systems neither did it have anything linking it to southern mantis. Other than the name 'mantis' thats about it.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis


Strikes are done with the wrist when the hooks are formed but northern mantis has punches also. They are also done with the fingers to soft areas such as the eyes and the throat.

Not to mention the punches which are just punches! done when the mantis hook isnt formed.

Also northern mantis is correct 8-step is northern for sure! it has very little in common with southern praying mantis. and also northern is what has monkey style foot work.