Yim Sheung Mo question...

[QuanpingYang]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum, and this is my first post (so be gentle with me :-) ). I'm really impressed with the quality of information to be found here.

I'm trying to find out some information about Yim Sheung Mo (I've also seen his name written as Yang Shang Wu). I've read the posts here in this Shaolin Kung Fu forum about him (and his teacher Ku Yu Cheung) and have learned lots of valuable information, particularly from the poster called NorthernShaolin, so if he or anybody else could provide a little more information I'd be very grateful.

The old Yang style of Tai Chi Chuan I practice (and some Northern Shaolin weapons and Pak Sing Choy Lee Fut) was taught to my teacher by Master Lam Kam Cheun, who was taught by Yim Sheung Mo and Lung Tse Chung in Hong Kong.

You often read about Yim Sheung Mo in relation to Northern Shaolin, but it's his Tai Chi Chuan lineage that I'm particularly interested in - does anyone know where he got it from - was it Ku Yu Cheung or another source?

(Our form is also known as the Quanping Yang form, which indicates it's from the Quanping area of China).

Incidentally, if anyone would like to see some cool pictures of Yim Sheung Mo doing Tai Chi Chuan and Northern Shaolin then have a look here:

http://institutodewushu.eresmas.com/Grandes%20Maestros/YanSeungMo.html

It's a page in Spanish that I found in a Google search. It states that he died in 1971, but does anyone know if this is true?

Looking forward to some replies.

best,
Graham

p.s. From looking at the posts here I'm assuming that "Pak Sing" means "north wind" - is that right?

[Nevermind]

Greetings! Check out Shaolinboxingmethods.com. There is a lineage family tree that shows him also learning Tai Chi from Ku Yu Cheung. Ku Yu Cheung apparently learned it from Li Jing Lin and Sun Lu Tang. Hope this helps!

[QuanpingYang]

Thanks!

Can anyone shed any more light on who Li Jing Lin was and how he came to learn from Yang Jian Hou?

The lineage tree lists him as a General of PRC, but doesn't provide any further information.

best,
Graham

[NorthernShaolin]

I once wrote an article about Wu Tang Sword and Li Ching Lin in a French mag called Bushido back in 1984. I've misplaced my the original English version so this is from my memory.

Li Ching Lin was one of China Seven Swordsmen who was trained by Tsung Wei I in the early 1900's. The other swordsmen were Lau Chan K'uei, Chang Te Chun, Hsiao Fung Hsing, Chen Yu Kuan, Lau Hai Yen and Kuo Chih Fung. Li Ching Lin had an open inventation at his house to any swordman who who match or beat him. He want to match his skill against any MA sword skills. He was defeating everyone and became known as China's Greatest Swordsman. He was a General in the KMT and many masters came to learn from him. Kuo Yu Chang and Wan Li Sheng were some of his students.

Of all the matches that Li had, he was defeated once when he faced the famous Tai Chi master, Yang Chien Hou. Right after they squared off, Yang knocked Li's sword out of his hand. From that moment, Li became Yang student and learned Tai Chi and Tai Chi Sword.

The Tai Chi that he learned was before Yang Chien Hou's son, Yang Chang Fu, wrote his Tai Chi book which became the standard Tai Chi set so it is a set that is not widely practiced. KYC taught the set to Yim Shan Wu.

Li Ching Lin taught KYC the Tai Chi, Tai Chi Sword, Wu Tang swords and Tai Yu Sword. The other sword sets that KYC knew,.i.e. Dragon Shape, Seven Star, Tamo and Eight Faries are Shaolin swords, not Wu Tang

[Tainan Mantis]

NorthernShaolin,
Li Jingling is mentioned in a 1931 who's who book of famous MArtists.
The book is written by Jing Enzhong.

I would like to know how much weight can be given to this book of biographies.

Have you heard of Jing(metal) Enzhong?

[NorthernShaolin]

QuanpingYang,

Yes it is true that Yim Shan Wu died in 1971. But the web site is wrong about YSW and Hung Gar. He was a pure Northerner with Northern Shaolin, Lui Ho and Ch'a Chuan. KYC kept two of his disciples from being traded to Tam Sam and other Southern Masters because he wanted at least two of his disciples to be pure Northerners in Southern China.

[NorthernShaolin]

Tainan Mantis


I do not have a copy of this book but if it was written in 1931 it probablysays a lot of good things about Li Ching Lin because he was a powerful person in the government and in CMA. He did not died until 1932 from a poison pill so since he was alive he might have had some input.

[QuanpingYang]

NorthernShaolin,

Thanks for your detailed answers.

Re: Yang Chien Hou Tai Chi

What you've said about our Tai Chi Chuan coming from Yang Chien Hou makes perfect sense to me,

1) It's not well known - I've only once seen our form done by one other Tai Chi school outside Master Lam's lineage, and that was in South America from the lineage of another student of Yim Sheung Mo.

2) It is differnet to the standardised Yang Cheng Fu verison - not as large frame, no slight leaning (vertical alignment of spine), more martial flavour to the movements and "softer".


Re: Ku Yu Cheung

Do you know why KYC traded his students with Tam Sam (Choy Lee Fut practioner?) what was the logic behind that? Was it to spread Northern Shaolin to other areas of China, or was it to exchange skills from the students he received? or was it to keep the peace? or perhaps a mixture of all three?


Re: Sword forms

There's a form we practice called "Northern Shaolin Dragon Sword" - I wonder if this is the "Dragon Shape" sword form you mention?

Finally - where do you get all this information from? I'm really impressed with your in-depth knowledge - is it from research or from your teachers? I guess, what I'm trying to say is, 'who are you?' :-)

Many thanks,
Graham

[NorthernShaolin]

QuanpingYang,

One of the main objective of KMT was to unify the China during the 1920's. They developed a motto: "A Strong Mind and a Strong Body builds a Strong Country". Part of their plan was to use CMA to build strong bodies. When KYC was appointed one of the Five Tigers of the North who went South, he, with the other four masters, were to open National Martial Art Schools and teach CMA to the masses. VP General Li Ching Lin, along with President General Chang Chih Chiang, decided that the two most important styles of CMA were Shaolin and Wu Tang and thus these were the styles to be taught in the government schools.

The Five Tigers were ordered to convince the southern population that all CMA were one big family and as part of the 'buy-in plan' was to trade students with the Southern Masters.

Yes, the Dragon Shape sword is the same one.

As to where I get my information...Much of my research has been collected 20 years ago when disciples of Yim Shan Wu and Lung Tzu Hsing were alive and willing to share their knowledge of NSL. Large parts came from reading numerous old Chinese documents, translating and interviewing the older disciples of NLS. Some of the information has come from my own sifu. Pieces and fragments of information over a long period of time that finally fitted together to get the bigger picture.

Who am I? By reading my profile you'll notice that I'm from the older generation. I'm the second most senior of Sifu Wong Jack Man and I'm the most active in NSL of all his senior disciples. I have witness the spread of CMA seeds across America and witness the CMA as its roots grew deep while its flowers blossom across the Non Asian Western World.

[QuanpingYang]

NorthernShaolin,

Many thanks for sharing your knowledge.

best,
Graham

[kai men]

I have been enighted by some important information here, thanks a lot.
I practice Northern shaolin with GM Chan Kowk Wai, in Sao Paulo, Brazil.
Chan Kowk Wai was the first student of Yim Sheung Mo, and introduced the style (and chinese martial arts) in South America in 1960.
He is nowadays 68 years old and has a very good shape!.
By the way , Yim Sheung Mo was INDEED a Hung Gar Teacher Before he met KYC. It was after a fight with the Master that he decided to leave Hung Gar and begin training BeiShaolin.
Kindest regards
horacio di renzo
http://www.kaimen.com.ar

[NorthernShaolin]

kai men,

Remember me? I e-mailed you three times in the past four years and you stated you were too busy to converse but would get back to me. You never did.

Several years ago I read in your web site that YSW learnt Hung Gar and I wanted to discuss this particular issue with you. First, I respect your sifu because we are one large family. Secondly, your sifu is my sifus lower classmate so that makes us cousins.

Now with regards to your information that YSW was a Hung gar teacher. Where did you pick up this infomation? Who did he fight? According to my sources which is not only my sifu but also from YSW's older senior disciples and also numerous documentations on NSL translated from New Martial Hero mag., Hong Kong Chinese Martial Arts Mag, and Martial Hero mag.

It is documented the only style that YSW learnt before NSL was Liu Ho chuan from Wan Li Sheng. He had to ask permission from WLS and get a letter of introduction from WLS to give to KYC before learning NSL.

Please enlighten me and direct me to your source of information on this topic.

With much Respect.

[kai men]

Dear Northern Shaolin:
How could I remember you as you use a nickname? I am very sorry for this, I didn´t notice you were the same person.
for my lack of a proper answer, I sincerely apologyze. For sure, I didn't tell you I was busy in the way you make it look here. Anyway, again , my apologies.
I didn´t discuss about the subject but I don't remember having received "four" mails from you ¿may be one or two? well, it has been so long time ago, let's doit now.
First of all, I don't know for sure this situation about Yim Sheung Mo. All I know is by my Teacher Chan Kowk Wai, so I can't assure this. You are looking for some documents, I don't have these. All I have is my teacher's words. He could be wrong...so I give up.
May be I am wrong but I think I read this from Kwong Wing Lam Too, may be our cousin Gene Ching could let us know.
As I told you, as far as I know my teacher has been YSM first formal student, so I can assume he knew YSM very well. My teacher has a lot of respect for your teacher, so for sure Master Wong knew YSM very well too....we are even here.
I am very sorry not to be able to help you. For me this is not an important matter, but as my teacher told me this, I tell it to others.
Kindest regards
horacio
PD if you write me in private this time I promise you will have a proper answer. I hope you are not angry (may be I misunderstand you but it seems you are a bit so ;-)
BTW how many years have you been practicing Bak siu Lam?

[NorthernShaolin]

kai men,

Plus 38 years and still ticking.

How about you?

[GeneChing]

NS- You wrote an article for a french mag? When are you going to write on for us? http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.html :)

KM- By the time my sifu Wing Lam was under YSM, your sifu had already left for Brazil. My sifu and your sifu never trained together, at least according to Wing Lam. He said that the only way he knew of CKW was because just before he left to come to the U.S.A. YSM told him he had a student in Brazil. I don't beleive they ever met.

BTW, we ran a nice article on CKW on our Oct 2000 issue http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=126

[Day Tong]

Northern Shaolin - First on all I am very impressed with your knowledge of Buk Sil Lum, martial arts history...etc. I noticed that Kai Men stated that Chan Kwok Wai was Yim Sheung Mo's first student, but you said that he is a lower classmate to your teacher.

Could you please explain in more details what you mean by Chan Kwok Wai being a lower classmate of your teacher?

[Lokhopkuen]

One year ago I had the pleasure to visit with Lung Kai Ming son of Lung Tse Chung in Kowloon and I was told by him and shown Ku's Tai Chi which he said came directly to his father from Yim Shang Mo and Ku Yu Cheong. It looked similar to Yang's short set with subtle variation. I have it on tape along with the interview and Q&A. if I can ever figure out the Ftp problem I am having I might post a fragment on my website.

Lokhopkuen



>Yim Sheung Mo question...

Hi,

I'm new to this forum, and this is my first post (so be gentle with me :-) ). I'm really impressed with the quality of information to be found here.

I'm trying to find out some information about Yim Sheung Mo (I've also seen his name written as Yang Shang Wu). I've read the posts here in this Shaolin Kung Fu forum about him (and his teacher Ku Yu Cheung) and have learned lots of valuable information, particularly from the poster called NorthernShaolin, so if he or anybody else could provide a little more information I'd be very grateful.

The old Yang style of Tai Chi Chuan I practice (and some Northern Shaolin weapons and Pak Sing Choy Lee Fut) was taught to my teacher by Master Lam Kam Cheun, who was taught by Yim Sheung Mo and Lung Tse Chung in Hong Kong.

You often read about Yim Sheung Mo in relation to Northern Shaolin, but it's his Tai Chi Chuan lineage that I'm particularly interested in - does anyone know where he got it from - was it Ku Yu Cheung or another source?

(Our form is also known as the Quanping Yang form, which indicates it's from the Quanping area of China).

Incidentally, if anyone would like to see some cool pictures of Yim Sheung Mo doing Tai Chi Chuan and Northern Shaolin then have a look here:

http://institutodewushu.eresmas.com...YanSeungMo.html

It's a page in Spanish that I found in a Google search. It states that he died in 1971, but does anyone know if this is true?

Looking forward to some replies.

best,
Graham

p.s. From looking at the posts here I'm assuming that "Pak Sing" means "north wind" - is that right?

[NorthernShaolin]

Lokhopkuen,

Yes "Pak Sing" does means "north wind" So in total content, Pak Sing Choy Lay Fut means Northern influence on Choy Lay Fut.

Yes YSM passed away in 1971. In his later life he tend to practice more Tai Chi than NSL. He learnt his TC from Kuo Yu Chang who learnt it from Li Ching Lin who learnt it from Yang Chien Hou who is the second generation of Yang Tai Chi. It was the third yang, Yang Cheng Fu that established the standard Yang set as we see today.

During the time of Li Chang Lin, he had a MARTIAL ARTS THINK TANK who consist of many internal masters such as Sun Lu Tang, Fu Chen Sheng, Yang Chien Hou, etc, and it was here that they exchanged knowledge freely between themselves. Much info was exchange and aided in the development of their styles. Hence Sun's Tai Chi, Fu's Tai Chi which were developed after the Think Tank session. It is also noted that Yang Chien Hou's Tai Chi, as you learnt it, is often refered as the old style Tai Chi. It also contains many Sun Lu Tang's Tai Chi principles.

Please re-read earlier posting above.

[Lokhopkuen]

Northern Shaolin;
I am by no means a historian so I only know what I hear from my teacher and associates. I have heard that Sun Lu Tang exchanged and taught to Ku Yu Cheong tai chi, bagua and hsing yi. there is a noted influence of hsing yi in the last forms of 9 and 10. Can you shed some light on any influences the exchange might have had on the whole of Northern shaolin style ? Did Sun Lu Tang's Tai Chi become a part of Ku's Tai Chi?
Regards

Lokhopkuen

[NorthernShaolin]

Day Tong,

According to traditional CMA sifu means father, and his students are his children. When people join the school, regardless of their age, they become his children and are ranked according to when they join.

In other words, if I join a school at age 26 yrs old, and there is 20 yr old who joined one month before me, according to tradition, he is my older classmate and I would have to listen to him. I would have to call him Sihing and give him all the respect that is attached to that title. Anything less is disrespect to him, to my Sifu and to the school.

So in the case of my sifu, he joined long before sifu Chan and therefore is the older classmate. In fact my sifu completed his studies long before sifu Chan. I remember showing a Chinese article to my sifu about Sifu Chan going to South America and my teacher said he is a lower classmate.

Now what really places bugs in my bed is when Kai Men states that Sifu Chan is YSW's first student with complete disregard and disrespect to all of Sifu Chan older classmates, including my sifu. All of us would like to feel special, but would a sifu really say such a thing to any of his students? I do not believe any reasonable sifu would make such a statement to any of his students.

As much experience that Kai Men has, he should think before making statements like that. To state that my sifu told me ...is a poor excuse.

Kai Men should really know better and should follow the proper protocal and as you can see, he blew me away again by not answering me nor giving me the proper respect.

[NorthernShaolin]

Lokhopkuen,

It is my understanding that the Tai Chi as it was pass to Kuo was originally 2nd generation Yang Style and Sun made some minor adjustments as to breathing and stepping. But the overall set is still old Yang.

Now Li Ching Lin and his think tank mambers made a decision that influence the rest of the CMA world. They decided that there are only two style that are really important, Wu Tang and Shaolin and thus work on these two styles to improve and spread the arts. (It was here that the group decided to group all internal styles, Pa Kau , Tai Chi and Hsing-i under one, Wu Tang)

Now KYC was a general under the command of Li Ching Lin and he requested Sun to teach his officers Pa Kua and Hsing-i. Sun and Li are at a higher level than Kuo so there was no exchange of knowledge. Kuo was the student and acted accordingly. As a result of these priviate lesssons, many of these students went to the 1928 1st China National Tournament in Nanking. The top 13 champions used not their original style but Hsing-i techniques to defeat their opponents.

The priniciple and concepts of of internal styles are very close to NSL unlike many other shaolin styles and so techniques from Hsing-i were easily tranported into #9 and #10 but as wise sifus being that they are, made sure that the NSL's flavor was kept within the set. The hsing-i techniques are there but they do not change the set's flavor nor overpower the other NSL techniques.

[Day Tong]

NorthernShaolin,

thanks for your detailed answer concerning Chan Kwok Wai being a junior to your sifu.

Years ago a friend of mine told me that your teacher, Sifu Wong Jack Man not only completed his training in the Northern Shaolin system at a young age, but he was one of the few students that Yim Sheung Mo allowed to study Northern Shaolin Lo Han from under Ma Kin Fung.

Is this true? And if so how long did he study under Ma Kin Fung?

[NorthernShaolin]

Day Tong,

Yes it is true but I do not know the exact number of years he studied with GGM Ma. MY sifu started his studies with YSW in China and together ended up in HK. He completed his studies after 11 years with YSW. During the time in HK and after LTH's sudden death, YSW and MKF shared the same practice facility so my sifu was one of the few selected individuals that could learn from two different masters at the same time. He would spend the mornings with one and the afternoon with other sifu; all of which were private lessons. He was learning and practicing kung fu day and night except on Sundays for at least 11 continious years.

After completion of his studies in both Northen Shaolin and Northern Shaolin Lo Han, both sifus wrote another letter of introduction to GGM Yip Yee Ting so that he can study Mi Tsung Lo Han. I do not know how long he stayed with YYT because he had made arrangements to leave for USA by then.

[JAZA]

Pak Sing Choy Li Fut is not named in this way because of Pak Sil Lum influences. I use to believe the same because of KYC influences.
But the reasons is that Tam Sam have his gwoon and all of his students belong to Sil Pak in Canton, and that's why his branch have the Pak name.
I've read that Pak Sing name intention more than north wind is north victory, as in all Sing of CLF branches.

Pax

[Day Tong]

NorthernShaolin,

Your teacher was very lucky to have been giving the opportunity to learn as much traditional northern kung-fu as he did while living in Hong Kong from famous masters such as GM Yim Sheung Mo, GM Ma Kin Fung and GM Yip Yee Ting.

With GM Yim Sheung Mo and GM Ma Kin Fung sharing the same training facility in Hong Kong did they ever exchange forms, principles, techniques...etc? Also I read somewhere that Ma Kin Fung was also a student of Ku Yu Chang, do you know how long he studied with Ku Yu Chang? And if so, did he also teach Northern Shaolin at his school as well.

We hear alot about the Northern Shaolin Lo Han system that was taught by GM Ma Kin Fung in Canada, but rarely get a chance to see the system performed in public. How close or similar are the Northern Shaolin and Northern Shaolin Lo Han forms?

Whew! Sorry for asking so many questions. :)

[NorthernShaolin]

Day Tong,

I do not know if MKF exchanged info with YSW. However, they did respected each other skills but there was a generation gap because YSW was 20 years older than MKF and this may have created a communication problem. Also they had different personalities, where one was outgoing, aggressive and known to be a no hold bar fighter while the other was quiet, kept to himself and very passive person.

MKF stated that he had three teachers, Wong Duk Hing, Sun Yu Fung and Kuo Yu Chang. However, YSW never acknowledge that KYC taught MKF directly nor did he ever state that he personally witness KYC teaching MKF.

But MKF did teach all 10 NSL sets in his curriculum in addition to his normal NSL- Lo Han curriculum in HK but when he left for Canada, he changed his curriculum and stop teaching NSL. (The old timers use NSL#6 as a method of where one learn NSL because YSW’s and MKF’s ending was different.) Sadly, MKF passed away in the year 2000 but his son continues to teach in Canada. His curriculum has NSL, NSL-LH and some Wu Shu.

NSL Lo Han’s concepts and theories are very similar to NSL and thus compliment each other well. Comparing the two styles, the flavor is different with NSL-LH being more aggressive in attacking techniques while NSL is a more balance style with deeper techniques in both attacking and defensive. In general, NSL-LH attracts the younger group because of the appearance of being a very aggressive attacking style and its quicker pace and high-energy style (lots of jumping and low stances) while NSL attracts the older group for whatever reason. (slower pace, less jumping). Most curriculums will teach NSL first before slowly starting the NSL-LH.

[kai men]

Dear NorthernShaolin:
I am in the Northern Shaolin since 1975. But I am following GM Chan Kowk Wai since 1990. I haver leartn the ten core forms, many weapon sets and 9 of the Siu Can Tson exercises. I also have learnt Tai chi Chuan, Hsing Yi (first two forms) and Mantis with my Teacher.
I am 42 and always glad to hear from Beishaolin Older and Younger colleagues!!!

Dear Gene ching:
I already know they have never met. My teacher has told me exactly the same. Master Kwong wing Lam begun his training when GM Chan had already gone to Brazl as you well say.

Kindest regards to both, and my deepest respect to your admirable Teachers.
horacio

http://www.kaimen.com.ar

[NorthernShaolin]

kai men,

Nice to hear from you and unfortunately I'm alot older but not wiser.

[kai men]

Dear NS:
I have been writing you both in private and in some forums asking for some clarification about my lack of protocol.
Now, I have understood, I have just read your post in this thread where you explain it very clearly.
I have to point out that even being a 28 years practicioner, I had no information about your Teacher's background.
As I DIDN T KNOW that GM Wong had studies Bak siu Lam in China, I stated that my sifu was the oldest YSM student.
I understand your reaction but please try not to get confused, my intention never was to put my sifu over your sifu's head. I think that every good student respects his sifu whether he is older o lower classmate. That's my case. I have never been told about your sifu as being the oldest. I am VERY SORRY for my mistake, and want to present my apologies publicly here.
I really expect you to understand and accept my sincere apologies, including my deepest respect for your GrandMaster. I really believed what I have writen. My mistake could have dishonoured my sifu too, nothing more far away from my intentions.
I believe Wong Jack Man, Kwong Wing Lam, Johny So, etc, are all very respectable teachers no matter who begun earlier with this BSL training.
Sincerely and respectfully:
Horacio

[NorthernShaolin]

kai men,

Being humble, forgiving and respectful is always the martial way.

I have deep respect for you and your sifu.

It is understood that we are all here to learn and share knowledge with each other. We are all cousins under one umbrella of NSL and with one thought of spreading CMA as much as we can.