What is "Martial Art"??

[Shadow Dragon]

Hiya all.

I get the feeling that a LOT of people here are confused what the term "Martial Art" really means and what Arts are covered under it.

The Term is fairly new it was only coined around 1933.

Here is what one of the Dictionaries has to say about "Martial Art".


Martial arts are the traditional skills of fighting or defending yourself which originated in Asian countries such as Japan and China and are now popular sports in western countries.
Kung fu, kendo and karate are martial arts.
The basic principles of martial arts are discipline, respect, confidence and self-defence.

And every Dictionary so far that I have seen said the same thing.

So by this Fencing, Boxing, Greco/Roman Wrestling, etc are NOT Martial Arts.
Peace.

P.S.: If you got a Dictionary that differs feel free to tell me about it.

[Budokan]

"The basic principles of martial arts are discipline, respect, confidence and self-defence."

Sounds to me like those other arts fit that description just as well as the Asian ones.

[Shadow Dragon]

Don't disagree there.

But it appears that the Dicitionary writers felt differently.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Budokan]

Yeah, but how many dictionary writers are martial artists...?:)

[Shadow Dragon]

I guess not many.

But it looks like that the term was coined to differentiate between asian/Far East and western combat/fighting systems.

[OdderMensch]

no "Martial Art" entry however
martial \adj\ [from the latin Mars] god of war, of, relating to, or suited for
war or a warrior. experieced in or inclined to war.

also it says about
Art \n\ archaic : learning; sholarship; a skillful plan.

simmilar to art are cunning, skill, artifice & craft. Craft with a shared meaning element : the faculuty of carrying out expertly what is planned or devised.

And it was a translation for sure, but I seem to recal Macciavli useing the combined term in his works "Art of War" & "the Prince"

[Shadow Dragon]

Here is what the Online Version of the
Merriam-Webster Collegiate (http://www.m-w.com/home.htm) has to say:

One entry found for martial art.
Main Entry: martial art
Function: noun
Date: 1933
: any of several arts of combat and self-defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport
- martial artist noun

I also think that if you look certain "terms" up in their split up version you will come to a slightly different meaning than the combined one.
Peace.

[Maestro1700]

hey shadow my dictionary has the same definition

but i think even though they may be mistaken on some ma systems that basically they are right in the assumption that western boxing, fencing and wresting etc arent martial arts..

my reason for thinking this is..i think of art as something that is complex,beautiful and has a depth of which is "fathomless" which is limited only by our phenominal imagination

now..western boxing ie title fights in the heavy weight or in the lightweight, either will do in this example..

how is that an art? the fight serves only 1 purpose, making money. thats what it all comes down to, besides entertaining large crowds, and making a huge amount of followers/business opportunities. i live in america and i actually live near foxwoods(about 30 mins from my house) which is the biggest casino in the world..and i have been ther many times and all ive seen of the fights there..there is nothing about them that is beautiful..or complex

ill admit to be a great title fighter it takes alot of dedication, mechanical strength and stamina training, dieting etc also the huge amount of competition and pressure by almost everyone around you and counting on you to succeed but still is that really a martial art? how much can someone grow in boxing? when they limit it to what it is how can it grow beyond what it is?

the same thing goes with fencing..its just sword play, the opponents are taught to use trickery and to decieve their opponents as well as being aggresive and defensive..they train in timing and sword techniques and some footwork from what i hear? but is that an art? how could it be..it cant be because they were fancy get up etc i dont know to much about fencing but i do know that they have some one man forms as well as 2 man forms, but they all seem alike and without a flavor of their own..i think fencing can be fun and entertaining i dont know about beautiful or how much more it can grow?

but whoever reads this passage should get my point..things like western boxing or fencing..or maybe wrestling(im undecided on wrestling because their are many forms of it..) cant compare to some of these asian martial arts because they are so complex and beautiful and serve more than 1 purpose and are constantly being reworked etc

thats just my 2cents anyway..

[scotty1]

You're young. You're into Asian martial arts. But you can't go around saying things like

"fights there..there is nothing about them that is beautiful..or complex "

or "fencing..its just sword play, the opponents are taught to use trickery and to decieve their opponents as well as being aggresive and defensive..they train in timing and sword techniques and some footwork from what i hear? but is that an art? how could it be"

Dude, the above are your opinions, based on (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong) a lack of experience in either boxing or fencing.
If you have taken either boxing or fencing then I would venture to say that you didn't get into it very deeply.

You cannot base your definition of martial art on whether something is beautiful to your eyes or not, because that is a deeply personal thing. That would serve as a personal definition of martial art, but not one that can be applied across the board, to other people, because then you are forcing your opinion onto others through your definition.

Boxing and fencing are both complex ARTS that you could train in for 10 years and still improve. Just because you do not see the subtleties within them does not mean they are not there.

I can understand what you are saying about boxing seeming simple (I can't understand that about fencing but there you go)
BUT, sometimes the simpler the art, the more complex it becomes. If you have less weapons, then you must know those weapons and know how to apply them with a great level of skill.
It is not the external appearance, nor the simplicity of the weapons that makes an art, it is the application of the skills learnt.

Take minimalist artists. Or anyone that's won the Turner Prize in the last, oooh, 5 years. I don't like their pieces, I think they are oversimplified and did not take much skill in producing, but that does not mean that I would say they are not pieces of art.

What about Wing Chun, simplified for effectiveness. Is that an art to you?

My own definition of a martial art is a standardised system of combat. Improve on it as you will.

But screw the dictionaries! :)

[Black Jack]

How common, another Asainophile post based on a personal viewpoints and not any research on the subject.

The history and art of personal combat did NOT START NOR END in the orient. The martial disciplines of the West are vast and in most Western European cases very well codified in combat training manuels of the time, something the East can not vouch for as the same.

Occidental fighting strategems both combative sport and pure martial are still practiced to this day, it is a great legacy of fighting heritage for those who wish to pursue it on either a practical or academic level, left down not from some ? monk 3,000 years ago who always comes with the standard bogus mythos invented by those wanting something greater than themselves, but by a line directly connected to reality without the needed storytelling, a line fussed in real use.

IMHO the art form of Renaissance classical swordplay is leaps and bounds above anything that the Asian world can toss its way in terms of material depth and skill. The French, Italian, Spanish, German and Elizabethan dualling schools of fencing should not be confused with want you see at your local community college sport fencing class.

Sword and dagger, sword and cloak, sword and buckler, dagger, grappling, unarmed combat, polearms, they taught it all, and not in a pretty by-rote form either, all of it codified and past down from one teacher to the next, Camillo Agrippa, Achille Marozzo, Viggiani, Di grassi, Talhoffer, the Spanish master Hieronimo de Caranza was the creator of the infamous "La Destreza" mystery school of sword combat, a method that has been passed down for over 300 years and is as close to a science as anything involving a bladed weapon with its use of geometry and advanced mathematics.

The spanish blade culture also has the Navaja, a folding dagger used in the 19th century, one of the gypsy methods is codified in the Manuel del Baratero, I have met and spoken to people where this has been passed down from grandfather to father, from father to son, contemporay books have been written about these lethal methods, methods which a number of bowie fighters and bowie dualling schools in early America also used, as well as a number of other western systems based on the user, his heritage and personal background, the spanish system of knifefighting can also be seen in the WWII American military knife system of Styers in his training book "Cold Steel", the Sicilians also have the switchblade/stellitto method of duelling which has been passed down from father to son, the Native American Indians are also fierce knife fighters, with there own armed and unarmed combat systems, we even have a member of this board who has been trained in Inoui knife fighting methods, the Basque knife system of Makila which uses a hawk bill shaped balde, not to mention the countless other countries with their own approaches.

There are many baton/stick/cane arts like La Canne and the french Canne de Combat, Irish Faction Stick Fighting, Canary Island stick fighting, Engilsh quater staff and 19th century Engilsh walking stick methods self defense , bayonet and a zillion other polearms and impact methods.

For unarmed combat we have the forrunner to modern boxing, the old methods of bare knuckle pugilism, Danse de Rue Savate which is the street combat system where the combat sport of Box Francaise-Savate comes from, Lutte Parisiene french street fighting, French Chausson-still practiced to this day and may of influenced Caporia by the saliors who practiced it on the ships, the Basque system of Zipota which may of created Savate, there is the Hawiiwan bone-breaking art of Lua, a VERY indepth unarmed and armed style which greatly influenced Danzan-Ryu Ju Jitsu and Small Circle Ju Jitsu, we have native Russian family martial arts and there sport/military runners like Sambo, we have British Purring/Cuttlegging a system used by coalminers who fought with metal toed shoes to settle disputes, tons and tons and tons of wrestling systems, everything from Folkstyle, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Scottish Backhold, Irish Collar and Elbow, Cumberland, Devonshire, American Catch as Catch Can to Native American wrestling methods, we have numerous military cqc methods of combat, I would also consider Ed Parkers Kenpo to be a American martial art and BJJ as a western art.

Plus we have firearms, a whole martial art onto itself, with a depth of civilan, law enforcement and military tactical training viewpoints, method after method, WWII point shooting, Vietnam Recondo Quick Kill shooting, Weaver, Colonel Copper, hundreds of years of material.

This is just a very small post on all of the fighting arts of the west, so don't be so narrow minded in your viewpoints, get educated on the subject, on what you THINK is martial or a complete system or whatever nonsense you want to base you vote off of.

[MantisWill]

IMO: I think they ALL should be called Martial Sciences. They use more scientific method than art in figuring out how to destroy your opponent. Besides, there is beauty in science. It doesn't have to be an art to be beautiful.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

maestro ..

martial art

[dezhen2001]

Black Jack: that was a very imformative post regarding Western MA. thanks :)

Art, skill, method, way... are they all words that describe the same thing? or different facets of the same thing?

Maestro: mate, that's a very naive thing to say if you have never trained in them... EVERYTHING requires a degree of skill to do well, eating, typing, talking... running, so how can u say that?

Also: "i dont know to much about fencing but i do know that they have some one man forms as well as 2 man forms, but they all seem alike and without a flavor of their own.." <-- isn't THAT their 'flavour'? ie. the style?

Wing chun forms are all similar, Hung Gar is different etc. Shaolin sword is different from Wudang sword - still sword but different essence (principles, strategy etc.).

Fighting isn't complex? Then how come some people always get beat up? 1 person is 'better' than the other...

actually, i lost my train of thought - GDA summed it up :p

david

[red5angel]

BlackJack - you must have a brain like a freakin sponge!

MantisWill - you would only be correct if you chose to approach them from that point of view, but for some of us it is an art form.

[apoweyn]

the dictionary is a follower, not a leader. the definitions therein are based on use. so if the majority of people use the term 'martial art' thinking that it refers only to asian systems, then that's what the dictionary will say. but those of us who actually train are in a better position to make educated decisions about the definition.

as most of us recognize, not all martial arts are asian, or traditional, or practiced as sports in the west. the writers of the dictionary had to make a generalization. and they did.

now if the rest of the world started discussing fencing and boxing as martial arts, in time, the dictionary would too. but it's not going to happen the other way around.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

maestro1700,

as has already been stated in this thread and the previous one on shaolin, you have a right to your opinion. personally, i strenuously disagree with this one too.

if you don't see beauty and growth in boxing and fencing, that's fine. i can't argue with your personal experience. but that doesn't represent truth any more than your take on the shaolin history did. even less so, in fact. at least the shaolin thing was based on some historic events.

like scotty1 said, you're into your art. and that's great. but you espouse it to such a degree that you actually look to alienate everyone that isn't your art.

why sit there and tell other people that they haven't grown through boxing or fencing, that their art isn't complex or expansive enough to be an art?


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Maestro1700 - Ap has a point, you need to walk a mile in someone elses shoes before making a judgement like that. If you have come to find some honest depth in your art, do you not think that a boxer has reached the same conclusion on a different path? although something seems simple, that could be just a facade for something much more complicated. Take wing chun for example. alot of people like to try to break it down into a few techniques. I see people all the time who have taken a little from wing chun, all the "good stuff". The problem with this is that without all the OTHER stuff, that good stuff isnt so good.
I like to look at most arts as a clock. You can watch a cloack tick away, its all very simple, three hands, moving in a timely circle around a flat face, but remove that face and it suddenly gets much more complicated.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

i am so ripping that analogy off and passing it off as my own. :)

[red5angel]

;) no problem man, it was a moment of clarity in my mostly delusional world......