Chinese MA + Western Sport Fencing [Archive]

Repulsive Monkey

05-09-2002, 02:53 AM

Don't bother because what you learn from Western fencing is completely different from CMA sword play. Different swords different techniques, applications, its a completely different ball game.
There was also the famous story of a French world champion fencer squaring up against the Taiji Master, Cheng Man-ching. Cheng used Taiji sword technique and absolutely wasted the fencer. Agagin this can come down to many factors, mainly skill is quite probably, but techniques are differnt too. I fear that learning western fencing will di little to lay a foundation, in fact even detract from what you learn in your art later.
The principles for weapons will be found in the empty hand forms why run before you can walk?

Richie

05-09-2002, 03:28 AM

Come on man! I hear stories like that all of the time. I really dont put too much into Chinese tales of greatness anymore. I not saying that there wasnt greatness in the old days, but i noticed that a lot of Chinese tales have been sweetin up. For example(fake story),a guy would tell a story like "there was an umarmed monk that beat a swordsman." It probably is true, but then the next person will tell it like "... beat two swordsmen." The next guy would say ".... three swordmen and the monk was tied up." Things get way out of whack in Chinese lore. Not all, but some.

Anyway, I agree with r. monkey when he it is different. However, it could be fun and you might learn SOMETHING helpful.

Thomas Chen

05-09-2002, 06:03 AM

Hi Xebsball

You know what, I have read that Bruce Lee had also dabbled in Western-style fencing.....probably learning it from his elder brother...............So, what you are intending to do is probably approved by the good old master himself :D

Repulsive Monkey

05-09-2002, 06:15 AM

why do people make so mant presumptions here? It is not an age old Chinese tale of greatness, it happen in New York during the Seventies, and my teacher was standing there watching it amongst the other 200 spectators present. Its even on video too.

Richie

05-09-2002, 06:20 AM

What was the name of the Champion?

Ky-Fi

05-09-2002, 06:32 AM

I’ve been studying CMA for almost 5 years, and I started fencing this past January---I’m lovin’ em both, and plan to continue with both, so I’ll give you my perspective. First, if you think Chinese swordsmanship is vastly superior, and that fencing has shallow sword techniques and strategies, then you really should attend a fencing class, and put yourself to the test against a good fencer. That’s what I did.

In Taiji, I’ve mostly studied saber, and just a tiny bit of sword. In my honest opinion, if you were to put a real saber in the hand of your average Taiji guy with 2 yrs. saber experience, and you put a real rapier in the hand of the average fencer with 2 or 3 yrs experience, and had them fight, IMO the fencer would win about 95% of the time. When you start talking about 10 yrs experience, and the Taiji guy has done a LOT more sparring, then the skill levels would equal out, and probably the Taiji guy would be at an advantage because of all the supplemental things he’s learned. I don’t think that either my Taiji or fencing teacher would disagree with that.

Fencing is a great cardiovascular workout---we do about 20 minutes of intense conditioning/footwork drills per class without weapons, and we even do “wall sits”---sort of where you sit in a horse stance with your back against the wall. I do feel that the full speed bouting against a resisting opponent is necessary to really get good at swordfighting, and this is really stressed a lot in fencing.

From my experience, I’ve found a number of similarities between the two---both stress keeping the body really relaxed, both stress keeping the knees slightly bent to maintain a low, stable center of gravity, and keeping your height constant and not bouncing up and down. In fencing you control the weapon primarily with your thumb and forefinger, and you try to develop the “sentiment du fer”---a real sensitivity and subtle control. You start out learning a lot of the parrying techniques in wider circles, and as you advance you try to make the circles smaller and all your movements more subtle. The body mechanics of the fencing lunge are very similar to the “press” from Taiji.

Of course, there’s a lot of differences, too. The foil and epee are both stabbing weapons---the point is the only way to inflict damage. This means there’s a different arsenal of offensive techniques than you would find in CMA. Also, the sporting aspect of fencing means that some of the stuff is martially unrealistic----lighter weapons, limited target areas, techniques that score points but would not be lethal in a real fight, rules such as “right of way”, where only the attacker can score a point even if both hit, etc. CMAs retain more martially realistic techniques, and of course there’s a lot more depth to the additional aspects of the art---barehand techniques, qigong, meditation, health, etc.

One important thing I got from my Taiji teacher is the ol’ “empty your cup” philosophy----I went into fencing with the attitude that I didn’t know anything about swordfighting, and that’s been useful. I try to notice differences and similarities between them, and I’m sure useful things that I learn in one may sometimes come out in the other, but for the most part I try to focus on what my teacher is telling me in each art. Personally, I’ve found them more mutually supportive rather than detrimental to my swordsmanship---you just have to remember that they’re different arts with a different focus. I love them both.

shaolinboxer

05-09-2002, 07:06 AM

I don't want to place too much meaning on this, but a friend of mine, Jessie Burke, is a world class fencer. She was homeschooled and raised on fencing and is now training for the 2004 olympic games.

We've talked a bit about martial arts and fencing and her comments can be summed up as: fencing is a sport with very limiting rules, totally different from the martial arts. If you wanna be good at fencing, fence, don't fight with swords.

GeneChing

05-09-2002, 09:40 AM

Fencing was high among my martial pursuits. I am certified as a provost master (in fact at the time, I was the youngest to be double certified in the USA) competed NCAA and nationally (although I'll be honest, my record was unspectacular) and worked as a full time armorer at American Fencers for several years (although again to be honest, my position was more focused on the historic weapons, but I could still rig an electric if I needed to...) check out they're website - www.amfence.com - I think they still have my original line drawings as part of their catalog.

Fencing is one of the closest games you can get to actual sword combat, especially epee. I think only the Japnese arts get a better piece of it. Padded sticks and nerf swords just don't give you the proper 'sentiment du fer.' Fencing theory is one of the most elegant ways to describe combat, it's so mathematical and scientific. In fact, if you study it, you can penetrate Bruce Lee's theories rather quickly, since much of his work was based on fencing theory. But the key is you have to study the historical stuff to make it all make sense. Modern fencing has made many compromises, not unlike modern wushu, but a little research can quickly reveal the essence of combat fencing. That's always the key, get to the root.

Personally, fencing taught my a lot about sword and really fed into my broadsword and straight sword. There's a lot of overlap, but you have to consider a few factors. Fencing was a duelling art, so it was one-on-one. Kungfu sword forms address multiple opponents. Also, there was a code of honor in duelling, so no kicking, punching, etc. Kungfu, well, there's honor there, but not in the same way. You can roll on the ground and throw dirt in their face and that's a cool move. So it's very true that fencing is more limited than kungfu. Additionally, fencing weapons were highly developed to be light, fast and sharp, so power is not a factor. With this kind of weapon, you can just pierce the vitals and be done. Kungfu weapons were heavier and required power.

But fencing moves in real time, real fast, so you get a good sense of what sword combat would be like, much better form practice. And best of all, every once in a while, you can really run some one through safely. :D

Repulsive Monkey

05-09-2002, 09:44 AM

Let me be more clear here. I don't want to put down Wesdtern Fencing I'm saying as an opinion that if one is to learn internal Sword form, I couldn't see the point in learning wetsern fencing as they are 2 different schools of thought. I don't want to critisise or uphold one over the other, and maybe I shouldn't of included the Taiji story as it isn't totally relevant I guess. This may of not provided an example of superiority over arts merely the individuals skills.
However I will try to find out his name, the fencer that is, but it is documented.

Xebsball

05-09-2002, 09:51 AM

Repulsive M, Richie, Thomas, Ky-Fi and shaolinboxer, Gene...
I apreciate your opinions, keep em coming.

I dont mean to be authoritary or anything but, well this is MY THREAD :D, and i apreciate if this didnt turn into a European vs Chinese vs Japanese swordsmaship discussion. Thats simply not the point of this post.
We can go on blah blah blah about a italian master defeating a japanese master that defeated the mother of a chinese master that worked on a restaurant and humiliated a french swordsman that was cousin of a famous painter who used to drive a BMW on summers and a Mercedes on winters but never really flyed on a plane that cut the throat of a disciple of Myiamoto Musashi wich defeated a British master who wanted to be queen of England...
and wed get nowhere.

About the taiji 2 years vs the fencing, i think that a person that specialises in sword training will always defeat the one that doesnt. In this case, the fencer trains full time sword while the taiji guy maybe, just maybe does 50% training with weapons.

Thomas
:D The way of the rapier fist

chingei

05-09-2002, 10:19 AM

why not give kendo a go?

dre

05-09-2002, 10:22 AM

Xebs - I'm consdering getting my certicifation in French fencing right now, I've been a Fencer for about 6 years , and I'm also a very new prctitioner of Praying Mantis KF.

It's very herd to describe on art in terms of the other, sicne they are for the most part totally different. Fencing will quickly give you a functional weapons base however. Knife tactics are pretty easily grafted on to fencing. A while ago,on this board, someone posted a Millitary manual on comatives, in the manual , the lines of attack , the stance and the attacks were for the most part borrowed from Fencing.

I know I chornically use Fencing footwork in sparring, I think it makes me much faster. I tend to "shuffle" a lot. I don't really know what else to say, do you have any other questions?

To those who say fencing is heavily restricted in target area etc, this is not true, epee fencing has a whole body target, and contact rules here are looser.

chingei

05-09-2002, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by dre
Xebs - I've been a Fencer for about 6 years

.

picket, or chain link?

dre

05-09-2002, 10:54 AM

Stone.

chingei

05-09-2002, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by dre
Stone.

isn't that more of a wall?

Xebsball

05-09-2002, 01:59 PM

Hey this is probably my 2nd most popular thread ever haha :D

-It would be also interesting if any of you guys happen to do a internal style tell me if doing such external could hold back my progress on internal.

-So Gene, are you what they call a "Mestre D'Armas"?

-There is no kendo in my area, and also im the kind of guy that doesnt like doing the kiai.

-Repulsive, my idea is that since ill only be able to train Xing Yi one time a week (i gotta travel 3 hours), it will really take a great deal of time until i can get to the weapons, plus the fact that the school is pointed towards empty hand fighting. So with the short time avalible i think it would be hard to be able to do all the drills/sparring of weapons since so much time is spent on empty hands.
Also i dont intend to start both right away, that wouldnt be wise. I want to learn the very basics of Xing Yi before getting to fence.

A interesting question:
-What about using the principles/forces of internal (assuming i learn them) in fencing?

Tvebak

05-09-2002, 02:27 PM

I have been practising Xingyi for some years now and one of the senior students at the school used to be a fencer...he has a lot of good points about xingyi and other MA from his background i fencing.
I think its very different with people...what they see in their arts.

Ky-Fi

05-09-2002, 02:49 PM

Well, I think it kind of depends on what kind of an approach to "internal principles" you're being taught. My Taiji teacher always explained them in a very logical, non-mystical way, and he always gave lots of non-taiji examples for everything. While there are some unique methods and principles in taiji, to a large extent I find the whole qigong thing to just be a different paradigm than the western model---it just uses a different framework to describe a lot of the same physical processes. I always use my analogy of a baseball pitcher doing something very similar to taiji---for his pitch, he relaxes his body, calms and focuses his mind, then he starts his windup, sinking in his chest to store his jing while reversing his breathing to draw in his dantien on the inhale, then he pushes off from his rooted foot and the energy goes through his waist and relaxed upper body in a whiplike pulse, while sharply exhaling and pushing out his dantien for the release of the ball---all very similar to "brush knee, step forward" in taiji.

I know there's some things in taiji (and taiji saber) like "peng", that doesn't really translate to fencing, but I find a good deal of the stuff applies. And, as has been mentioned, and from my limited experience, fencing relies VERY little on muscular strength-dominant techniques---so I don't think your're going to be doing tons of exercises that run counter to "internal" styles.

OK, I have a question for Gene:

As you seem to be into the historical roots of fencing, maybe you can understand where I'm coming from----I've been learning the foil with the French grip, and the traditional side of me want to remain with that grip permanently. However, I believe most competetive foil people eventually adopt the pistol grips. What's your take on that?

Ky-Fi

05-09-2002, 02:58 PM

Actually I take that back about "peng" not applying----I was thinking of it in a more offensive manner with taiji saber, but I guess defensively peng could certainly apply---particularly when you're defending against an overhead strike to the head when you're fencing saber......hmmmm.......it's got me thinking........:)

joedoe

05-09-2002, 04:21 PM

I have trained in CMA for 15 years, but started fencing at the start of this year. I love it! It is great fun.

However, if you are going to train both, you should make sure you make it clear to yourself that they are seperate things. Sure there is some crossover, but that is more in strategy than technique. Like they say, empty your cup first :)

I found in bouts, the hardest thing to get used to was not driving for power, but rather agility. I was so used to attacking with power that the first time I actually fenced (as opposed to drilling) I broke 2 foils - the master at arms was not happy :(.

Apart from that, I really enjoy fencing. I think it trains up different attributes to what my CMA does, and it does force you to think differently (mainly because in foil fencing you are restricted in several ways).

My advice though - make sure you are confortable in your Xing Yi before you take up fencing, otherwise you may end up confusing yourself :).

David Jamieson

05-09-2002, 04:47 PM

I have fenced all my life since I was nine and it never conflicted with martial arts practice at all and is truly a great passtime, passion and endeavour.

Gene, I didn't realize you fence. I knew you were big on swords but anyway...I digress.

One of the cool things I found after I had been doing Kung Fu for a while was an old fencing manual, or at least a part of it in another publication.
What it showed was attacks, defenses and techniques associated with epee, foil and sabre of the european traditions.

Mirrored against these prints were woodcuttings of japanese swordplay.

Wouldn't you know it, many techniques using like blades were very similar. Many of the footwork stances and patterns of attack were also similar.

Mathematical and scientific for sure, the human body works thus and with a sword in hand it does this. :D
I still have a pair of Paul Foils in good shape. Muchos fun.

peace

Julien

05-09-2002, 06:27 PM

hmmmm... everyone that i have talked to before has hated fencing with epees. something about using a car antenna for a sword isn't as appealing as a nice, luxurious rapier.

i would suggest that if u do go into fencing, go into rapier fencing or sword-and-parrying-dagger fencing... most people like these alot, but some people question the effectiveness of the sword-and-parring-dagger style... (it is cool :P)

i believe if u can find an AEMMA school, they teach fencing... they teach everything in western combat :P

anywayz, just a heads up there
Julien

p.s. (ya, i don't like epees too... i find that fencing with epees isn't as much skill as chance... u watch the olympics and the duels only last about 1 second. just a bunch of poking and then a scream of frustration. gambling... i could be wrong but i see this as another reason people don't like epee fencing.)

dre

05-09-2002, 06:50 PM

Xebsball:

-It would be also interesting if any of you guys happen to do a internal style tell me if doing such external could hold back my progress on internal.

Never done much internal stuff. You will develop explosive power with weapons in Fencing. Lunges and Fleche attacks have to be fast and furious to work.

-There is no kendo in my area, and also im the kind of guy that doesnt like doing the kiai.

Me nether. Yelling is not my thing. I take tow yell-less arts.

-my idea is that since ill only be able to train Xing Yi one time a week (i gotta travel 3 hours), it will really take a great deal of time until i can get to the weapons, plus the fact that the school is pointed towards empty hand fighting. So with the short time avalible i think it would be hard to be able to do all the drills/sparring of weapons since so much time is spent on empty hands.Also i dont intend to start both right away, that wouldnt be wise. I want to learn the very basics of Xing Yi before getting to fence.

Fencing is Superior! (ala Realek). lol , j/k.

A interesting question:
-What about using the principles/forces of internal (assuming i learn them) in fencing?

Jeez, I don't know about this, but I KNOW for a fact, that the longer you fence, the more you get a feel for the people you sparr. So you can easily pick out the holes in a person's defence with a look when you get pretty good. You can spot bad footwork , or holes in the gaurd , and from there you can lay your plans. . . . It's hard for me to really tell you , since I've been a fencer since 10 or 9. European weapons are home for me :)

Julien :
"hmmmm... everyone that i have talked to before has hated fencing with epees. something about using a car antenna for a sword isn't as appealing as a nice, luxurious rapier"

For some reason, everyone fixates on Foil , there are 3 big weapons! There is Foil, then Saber , then Epee! The Epee is actually much heavier than the other two, and you can get quite hurt if you don't know how to use it correctly! A few months ago we had someone with two broken ribs.

"p.s. (ya, i don't like epees too... i find that fencing with epees isn't as much skill as chance... u watch the olympics and the duels only last about 1 second. just a bunch of poking and then a scream of frustration. gambling... i could be wrong but i see this as another reason people don't like epee fencing.)"

Wow, you are very stupid. Epee is the highest level of Fencing, it is no longer a pracitce weapon at that point, one hit to any part of the body, and you're out.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Julien

05-09-2002, 07:11 PM

i'm stupid because i don't like epees?

what u just said about it being 'one hit to any part of the body, and you're out' completely confirms the luck theory...

sure, if u hold the title as the best epee fighter in the world and u are constantly challenged, 1 lucky poke could change that because one poke and u're out....

if u go by scoring hits, it may be 8... that green swordsman will have to get in 8 lucky shots. (unless he hits in critical areas... i forget what school uses this system)

epees are alright, but rapiers just have that much more oomph.

if you're fighting someone with, say, hardened leather armor, u are most likely screwed unless u practice sharpening it everyday. (swords rarely stayed sharp... constant use caused they to dull and owners just didn't bother with the tedious exercise.)

epees are probably unparalelled (sp?) in unarmored combat but in armored combat, u need something with more weight behind it's blade (the blade doesn't have to be heavier, just balanced differently)

u can probably see what i am talking about.

oh, and we probably focus on rapiers more than epees because rapiers look cooler and have an actual blade... they don't just pick up radio waves hehe

no hard feelings
Julien.

joedoe

05-09-2002, 08:36 PM

Ummmm, the epee is supposed to be a rapier but modified for competition fencing.

Braden

05-09-2002, 08:53 PM

My favorite sword to fence with is the foil. Most people like it the least as it is generally taught first (and thus seen as inferior) and has the most restrictive rules. However, these same factors also make it the fastest and the most technical. No matter what sword you fence with, you won't be learning a self-defense sword art (and even if you were, the value of such a thing is obviously limited these days). The specialization in foil allows you to concentrate more on the attributes that can be built through fencing practice, which will benefit your other martial endeavors.

Xebs - Don't worry too much about the internal/external stuff. Mostly, in terms of the internals, you want to avoid training which promotes tension and/or resistance. This shouldn't be a problem with fencing. There will be a few bad habits you are at risk of picking up, but this will be true of any two arts.

dre

05-09-2002, 09:41 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Julien
[B]
"what u just said about it being 'one hit to any part of the body, and you're out' completely confirms the luck theory..."

Well thats where the Martial Art part comes in, you must evade getting hit, yet hit yourself.

"sure, if u hold the title as the best epee fighter in the world and u are constantly challenged, 1 lucky poke could change that because one poke and u're out...."

Most epee Matches aren't 1 pointers, but it's often used as a tie-braker.

"if u go by scoring hits, it may be 8... that green swordsman will have to get in 8 lucky shots. (unless he hits in critical areas... i forget what school uses this system)"

It's actually 15. And FYI , green swordsman really suck. All they can do is swing, they have no defence, no movement, they are just targets.

"epees are alright, but rapiers just have that much more oomph."

An epee is a sport Rapier.

"if you're fighting someone with, say, hardened leather armor, u are most likely screwed unless u practice sharpening it everyday. (swords rarely stayed sharp... constant use caused they to dull and owners just didn't bother with the tedious exercise.)"

Umm, actually no, the reason western systems concentrate on stabbing is becuase it conentrates power in the tip , power that can go though light armour. Stabbing is also much more deadly than slashing.

"epees are probably unparalelled (sp?) in unarmored combat but in armored combat, u need something with more weight behind it's blade (the blade doesn't have to be heavier, just balanced differently)"

Maybe , but in the West, westill favor stabs over slashes.

"oh, and we probably focus on rapiers more than epees because rapiers look cooler and have an actual blade... they don't just pick up radio waves hehe"

UGh. Epees are sport rapiers.

dre

05-09-2002, 09:44 PM

Of couse it's a self-defence sword art. What other purpose was it invented for? Thats why you advance in fencing to swords with less rules and restrictions.

Braden

05-09-2002, 09:48 PM

I don't think the fencing we do today is quite like the fencing that was done for people training to defend their lives with their swords. Even with epee, the restrictions on your movement and "secondary" techniques are so strict that it could not even be an rough approximation of a self-defense encounter with swords. Which is not to say that it won't build great attributes for such a situation, but I allready said that.

Ky-Fi

05-10-2002, 05:27 AM

Braden, your take on the foil is interesting. I've mostly done foil since January, but the last class we got to try out epee and saber--no bouting, just some drills. And, the instructor explained a lot about the differences in bouts with the different weapons. I had initially assumed I would gravitate more towards epee or saber, and while I still will give them a chance, I think I may lean more towards foil. As I understand it, there seems to be more blade exchanges and parry/riposting stuff in foil, which I find the most fun. Also, while you could argue that having more targets in epee and saber is more realistic, I suppose you could also argue that being required to hit the body in foil means that you're focusing on more realistically lethal techniques.........at least that's my take as a beginner.

ddh

05-10-2002, 07:35 AM

I read an interesting book fairly recently titled "The Fencing
Master." The story, an interesting one, goes into the
mind of the fencer and the various schools during the 1800s.
I highly recommend it to fencers from any tradition.

David Jamieson

05-10-2002, 07:38 AM

Some of you will really like this. It's been floating around for a few years now (roughly 400 or so hahahaha)

check it out, definitely an interesting read.

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

peace

GeneChing

05-13-2002, 09:54 AM

XB: Just 'cause you started it, doesn't mean it's your thread. That's not the way a forum works.;) But I totally agree with you that we should resist the temptation to get into vs. arguments - it's not the art, it's the man.
I'm certified as a Provost, or prevost d' armes. I actually have two diplomas, one under the United States Fencing Coaches Assn. and another from the Army ROTC. The USFCA is recognized by the Federation Internationale D'Escrime, fencing's international governing body. There are three teaching degrees: Instructor (give beginning lesson in one weapon) Prevost (give a beginning lesson in one weapon and and advanced in one weapon) and Master (maestro - advacned lessons in all three.) A verbal, written and demonstrative examination is required with a board of 3 masters, plus a thesis. I specialized in epee and did my thesis on the Book of Five Rings applied to Western Fencing. I was trained in both the French and Italian schools.

KF: As for the old handle debate, use what makes you win the most. Don't be attached to a traditional grip or a modern grip. Be practical. Actually the Italian grip is the most traditional, but the french still dominates. I prefered a Belgium or German myself. It's all personal preference.

KL: Stop following me ;)

joedoe

05-13-2002, 07:40 PM

Gotta say I am enjoying fencing more and more each time I go to class. Fenced a guy who I beat, then found out later that he was fighting wrong-handed to rest his injured hand. Very humbling :).

Gene - you probably told us before, but how long have you been fencing?

dre

05-13-2002, 09:08 PM

The judges in my area don't really interpret the rules very strickty, I even had someone trying to hold me in one tournament. Becides it used to be that all you get for cora cora in epee was a warning.

joedoe

05-13-2002, 09:13 PM

Well, I don't compete, I am just doing training bouts right now and the refs are the senior students (or the Maestro) so the judging can be a little off sometimes. Ultimately I take the attitude that I am the newbie and I know nothing about refereeing.

Someone trying to hold onto you seems a bit much though :).

BTW in foil fencing, what are the rules surrounding contact with the ground e.g. are you allowed to put your free hand on the ground during an attack? What about if your slip/fall over?

dre

05-13-2002, 09:15 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeneChing
XB: Just 'cause you started it, doesn't mean it's your thread. That's not the way a forum works.;) But I totally agree with you that we should resist the temptation to get into vs. arguments - it's not the art, it's the man.

Aye it is. I would be a very poor judge of what is better or worse since my fencing has years on my KF.

. There are three teaching degrees: Instructor (give beginning lesson in one weapon) Prevost (give a beginning lesson in one weapon and and advanced in one weapon) and Master (maestro - advacned lessons in all three.) A verbal, written and demonstrative examination is required with a board of 3 masters, plus a thesis. I specialized in epee and did my thesis on the Book of Five Rings applied to Western Fencing. I was trained in both the French and Italian schools.

I'm thinking of applying to be an instructor , could you please tell me what the test is like? I don't think I want to teach right now, but it's a nice thing to have under my proverbial "belt". BTW, I'm a French Fencer, with a littel Hungarian for flavor.

"KF: As for the old handle debate, use what makes you win the most. Don't be attached to a traditional grip or a modern grip. Be practical. Actually the Italian grip is the most traditional, but the french still dominates. I prefered a Belgium or German myself. It's all personal preference. "

I've always had a lot of trouble with the Belgian and German, they always make my hand "stick" , so I'm one of the very few who uses the French. Although I do know a guy who uses the old handlebar Italian.

Thomas Chen

05-14-2002, 06:25 AM

To Xebsball:

Latest news release: HongKong-based Golden Harvest Film Studios has just announced a latest martial arts film, to be directed by Academy Award-winning director, Lee Ang. It is titled, " the Way of the Rapier Fist". The story is about a Brazilian martial artist, Xebsball aka Genital Grinder II, who had mastered the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and that of Western fencing, who then combines them both to form the Way of the Rapier Fist. The final climax in the movie would be that Xebsball would go level by level up a Chinese pagoda, not unlike " The Game of Death", and uses his rapier fists to go against top martial artists at every level. Potential villains being considered would include Samo Hung, Jacky Chan, Jet Li, a completely digital and computer-generated Bruce Lee, and Michael Jordan, whom Xebsball will fight at the top level of the pagoda. Expect lots of slow motion computer enhanced moves like that in the Matrix, and a ridiculous storyline that includes Xebsball learning to walk on water without sinking..... The film is expected to premiere in U.S. theatres in summer 2003. Stay tuned.

:D

Thomas Chen

SwaiingDragon

05-14-2002, 07:55 AM

I had the pleasure of fencing for over a decade- although saber is my preffered weapon- foil gives you excellent point control and epee helps ones focus and patience-

I've also tried a variety of martial arts- kendo, kumdo, arnis, kali, jiu-jitsu, judo, hapkido, tae kwon do, sambo, -just to try- but i've been practicing kung fu for about 7 years-

I've placed 1st or 2nd in about 12 weapon sparring events at kung fu tournaments- and to be honest - i'm not that good at either fencing or kung fu- it's my hobby (that i take seriously)-

I found that some current kung fu weapon practioners are more theory than application- if you win a forms division it doesnt mean that you will automatically win an actual combat situation.

how does a boxer handle a grappler? a kicker handle a boxer?

the way to find out is to try.....and western fencing is a safe way to experience weapon conact.

think about trying to hit a golf ball or baseball by only practicing you swing not actually ever hitting the ball!!

GeneChing

05-14-2002, 10:08 AM

jd: I started fencing in high school under Maestro Pitner and was competing as on the junior level. I competed NCAA in college under Maestro Dasaro and was captian of the epee squad. I was trained as a Provost under Maestro Gaugler then too. I gave up fencing in the mid 90's. He ran the only certification program in the USA that was univeristy based, but I'm not sure if he still is recognized by the USFCA. I was training towards my Maestro, but then blew my elbow pretty badly, and then my kungfu overwhelmed my fencing.

There is no bodily contact allowed in fencing and you cannot use your back hand. A fall ends the action. I haven't kept up with the rules, but last I remember you could touch the ground with your free hand in a passato soto (a ducking stop thrust) - this might have changed. Remember fencing is based on duelling, not street combat, so just like boxing doesn't allow kicking, fencing has it's restrictions. Same as Kendo vs. Kenjitsu.

dre: The instructors's exam is pretty light, an oral, a written and a demo. You can contact the USFCA for more info - the hardest part is assembling 3 masters to sit on your board. You need to know three masters.

I used the french occasionally in Epee since it was legal to grab it by the pommel in that weapon and it would give me an extra 3 inches. I'm 5'8" so kinda short for epee and L'd take any more reach I could get. I'd use this only against a fencer who had weak beats. Gaugler was a stickler for the Italian grip - it had it's usefulness but I never competed with it. I do think that it gives you a better sense of what if must have been like back in the day. I liked the heavy pistol grips because they were like a big push dagger and I could just punch through sometimes. Maybe that was a little shaolin bleeding into my fencing. That straight lunging punch is always dependable.:D

Xebsball

05-14-2002, 02:11 PM

Thomas :D
Dont tell Tae Li, but do i get to elbow Jet in the face? :D

I have come up with a final asnwer, basicly the idea is that i must first aquire "minimal sparringly proficiency" in XY before doing any fencing.

dre

05-14-2002, 08:53 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeneChing
There is no bodily contact allowed in fencing and you cannot use your back hand.

They are seriusly moving towards more contact and more protective equipment. Cora cora is quite normal here in NYC , and it usually goes without any comment.

A fall ends the action. I haven't kept up with the rules, but last I remember you could touch the ground with your free hand in a passato soto (a ducking stop thrust) - this might have changed.

It hasn't you can't use the other hand for anything. You can't block target.

dre: The instructors's exam is pretty light, an oral, a written and a demo. You can contact the USFCA for more info - the hardest part is assembling 3 masters to sit on your board. You need to know three masters.

Well, I know at least one, maybe I can scare up more.

I used the french occasionally in Epee since it was legal to grab it by the pommel in that weapon and it would give me an extra 3 inches.

LOL! I know someone who does EXACTLY this, and it's why he uses a french too.

I liked the heavy pistol grips because they were like a big push dagger and I could just punch through sometimes. Maybe that was a little shaolin bleeding into my fencing. That straight lunging punch is always dependable.:D

Naa, it's my fencing that dominates everything else, I migth as well train Savate. Lol, I do the whole fencing footwork thing, even in KF, line 'em up - drill 'em.

GeneChing

05-15-2002, 10:10 AM

While we're on the topic, let me recommend my favortie fencing book - On Fencing by Aldo Nadi - you'll find it available here - http://www.amfence.com/html/books_fencing.html . Nadi was one the the greatest fencers of last century and his description of fighting an actual duel is a must read for every swordsman.

dre: Actually my understanding was that they were moving away from body contact due to injuries. True, the equipment has greatly improved, but so have the restrictions. You got to remember, I was trained under the old AFLA rules, not USFA, so my take on this comes from when points were scored against (as they should be) not for.

If you fencing someone who grasps the epee by the pommel, just beat the hell out of his blade and he'll tire. Just be cautious, since if he has good blade evasions (and someone using this strategy usually does) he'll draw out that big beat just to open you for a wrist pick.

I always wanted to try Savate, especially since I worked shaolin cane a lot, but never found a teacher.

And I used a lot of the fencing drills too, not unlike Bruce Lee. There's a big flaw in Lee's technique because of this and I've toyed with writing a piece to address this, but it takes so long to set up the fundamental understanding of fencing time. Still, it's great reaction training and distance work. A lot of fencing footwork and the whole notion of feinting, second intention and right of way, are all great for sparring theory and training.