Want to talk about lineage???? [Archive]

red5angel

05-09-2002, 01:41 PM

This thread I am sure wil get banned faster then you can read the title but here it goes......

You guys are so fixated on arguing about your ******* lineages here you go, have at it, I'll start.

Whatever Lineage it is I am learning, It works, its solid the stance is low and rooted to the ground, after a few years you are like the willow, bending in the wind but solidly stuck to the ground. I have seen it and I have seen it work. Our hands are soft and supple, not flopping around like a chicken flapping its wings but always in contact. Your punch or kick comes it it I take it, and send the force right down through the ground. The top guys I have seen and met, in my opinion would wipe the floor with most wing chun people. Chi sau is cute if you are in a touchy feely mood, but the wing hcun I learn is not touchy feely, its a combat art. I am learning to fight, not look pretty. You want proof it works, next ime you stop by you let me know or anyone else who might train my stuff, you wll SEE.

Now, come one, lets hear all those cute poetic non answers and how in your opinions all things can work I like hearing pretty words like that., it makes you sound like you know what you are talking about and it makes me feel good.

red5angel

05-09-2002, 02:08 PM

Dave you want to knock this one down go ahead, I figure I am doing you a favor, all these guys are so interested in bickering like old women about whoes lineage is better they can do it here and maybe we wont have to see it anywhere else!

byond

05-09-2002, 03:05 PM

all right than,
there is no way your family could have even half the root my lineage has. leung sheung and chu shong tin students are simply know as the best. at leeast we share the fact of not flapping chicken arm skill wing chun. and both are families train for real life . but thats where the simularities stop. leung sheung lineage is the best..ive seen it and felt it for years. if you ever want to learn the truth please come see me...i will introduce your weak structure to our way,
p.s expect to hold something between your knees

planetwc

05-09-2002, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by byond
all right than,
there is no way your family could have even half the root my lineage has. leung sheung and chu shong tin students are simply know as the best. at leeast we share the fact of not flapping chicken arm skill wing chun. and both are families train for real life . but thats where the simularities stop. leung sheung lineage is the best..ive seen it and felt it for years. if you ever want to learn the truth please come see me...i will introduce your weak structure to our way,
p.s expect to hold something between your knees

Cause he eat's Kennel Ration. My dogs better than yours.
Lets see how old some of you are to remember that TV Ad.
Man Alpha Dog must be loving these references. :D

So of course, by implication if lineage X is stated to be the best,
and I'm from lineage Y, I'm going to not think you are being particularly polite. :rolleyes:

After all, we ALL think we are with a good lineage, otherwise why would we waste our time?

That said, going to the Tiger Woods school of Golf does not make me Tiger Woods. It merely indicates the approach I am attempting to take in golf. It could be that I am good, or I am lazy or I am not particularly physically coordinated.

The "best" is subjective. The proof is in the hands, and last time I checked, the various senior teachers/Grandmasters/etc. have not locked themselves in an octagon to duke it out, based on age and/or weight class.

Lineage points back in time and acknowledges source.
It is not in and of itself a guarentee of performance or skills of a student or even a teacher.

byond

05-09-2002, 04:00 PM

dont let the smooth taste fool ya:D

gnugear

05-09-2002, 04:06 PM

flapping chicken arm

Doesn't bong sao mean wing arm:)

Alpha Dog

05-10-2002, 04:14 AM

That was my favourite ad as a kid, PWC, used to feed em to mah dawg.

What's with all this "I'm here seeking justification for and approval of who I SAY I am (i.e. wish I were)" crap anyway? Sounds like McDavism is catching on.

Let's all have a big hug and be friends.

Ish

05-10-2002, 04:22 AM

everyone knows your wing chun is of poor quality if you don't have flapping chicken wings.

ps my lineage is the best

red5angel

05-10-2002, 06:25 AM

Planetwc - you make some good points, the 'best' is subjective and just because you are learning a thing does not mean you are a thing. But if you are training in the right stuff you are a long way towards getting there and far ahead of the pack. Thats what I am saying, I would take someone studying under Carl and Ken and put them up against guys in other schools who have much more experience. Why, because they have the tools and that is how much confidence I have in those tools.
Everybody wants to point out time spent doing this or that, Its bs, I know guys here in the minneapolis area who have been doing it for years, and cant hold a torch to what Carl and Ken are teaching.
As for Grandmasters and Seniors, thats all and good, if any of you wanted to teach wing chun for a while you could eventually call yourself a grandmaster, does that make you the best? Probably not, does it make you right? Probably not. I am not saying the GMs' of today dont have what it takes or dont deserve the respect they get but some people teach well some people do well, not everyone does both.
Regardless, I am no longer interested in being diplomatic and politically correct about what "can be" or what "should be". Everybody wants to be nice, present a nice "face" Great, if you are looking to be nice, but wing chun isnt teaching us how to be nice, its teching us how to fight. Or it should be.
As much as so many people want to spout off "ancient wisdom" about not needing to fight, the best fighters dont fight, the only way to fight is by not fighting, and any other crap like that might sound all pretty and flowery, its not real life. Wing Chun IS fighting. If you want to know that you have good skill, fight.
From what I have come to see and understand, most wing chun out there is worthless watered down crap being taught by people who have no understanding of what it is really about. I said it twice already I will say it a third time, wing chun is about FIGHTING. Yip Man, a smal guy, very spunky, liked to fight in his youth, encouraged his first few students to go out and FIGHT to show that what he had to teach was worth learning.

dezhen2001

05-10-2002, 07:31 AM

Grandmaster is a relative term anyway if u ask me. like Sifu, Sigong, Tai Sigong (Si Tai Gung). Even Sihing (elder brother).

I have a Sifu, his teacher is my Sigong, and his teacher is my Tai Sigung. In western terms it's like Father/Teacher, Grandfather/Master and Great Grandfather/Grandmaster... Because of my 'generation' if u like that's why i would say that. The generation above me would call my Tai Sigong just Sigong. so it's all relative. Grandmaster is used by other people just as a term of respect.

But can i ask: do any of these ppl who get called that call THEMSELVES that? i doubt it very much... as most skilled people are humble. It's just when ppl take the title upon themselves that it gives everyone a bad name :P Things like Grandmaster, Sijo, Soke, Shihan... u can tell by looking at someone if they have the skill, a title isn't really needed.

There is a difference in style and skill everywhere - any MA not just WC. But i think because WCK is something so personal that maybe that's why there is so much difference. who knows what the old training was like? i don't really think we should try and compare to that anyway.
Also everyone has a different 'angle' and method of teaching the skill. Some want to go all out fighting straight away, others spend much more time on forms trainng and chi sau... everyone is different. But the essence should still be the same. That's what WC is...

just my random thoughts, :)
david

red5angel

05-10-2002, 07:50 AM

Dezhen - I would say master, grandmaster, its all subjective. If you havebeen studying an art for while and are called Master, but I can still beat you in that art, then what qualifies you to be master? I s it age? I know plenty of old people who arent masters. Is it knowledge? I know alot personally about the craft of making a bow, but am far not very good at it. Is it Skill? We all know there is atleast one person out there better then us.
Its probably a combination of these things, but whatever it is it isnt quantifiable, and anyone can call themselves anything they want. Again, I am not saying these guys dont necessarily deserve these titles, but ultimately that is what they are titles. Regardless, you may know how to do something, you may have even mastered it, but are you doing it the best way?

"But i think because WCK is something so personal that maybe that's why there is so much difference. who knows what the old training was like? i don't really think we should try and compare to that anyway. "

I do have a problem with this quote though. We probably shouldnt be trying to rebuild the past but we should be working to improve on it. Wing Chun is well thought out and tested Art, so changing it is hard, especially for the better. But what if you loose sight of some important things? Take for instance rooting. To get your root down you have to work for it., working for it hurts, its uncomfortable to sink down that stance, and it can get to you. but if you push on through, work for it, take the pain, you will get it, and no one can take it away from you. If you stand around all day, toes bent sort o fin, sort o fdown in your root, thats great, but you arent doing it right, and you have missed it. Maybe not your fault, but it isnt where you should be.

Dezhen - The WC I study now has not only gone back to its roots (no pun intended) but there have been some good changes in the way we train, but not to WC itself. See the Tai Chi thread. The point is that we havent lost site of where it came from and what works, and have added to it successfuly and to our advantage. nothing fancy either, just the basics.....

dezhen2001

05-10-2002, 08:37 AM

Red5 - sounds good :)

What i was meaning in my post before was that the titles are RELATIVE to where YOU are in relation to THEM. My Sifu is someone elses Sihing etc. You can call people anything you want, but it's all relative. In that sense we both mean the same thing. Someone form outside the style or whatever - maybe it's just to be polite. I equate Grandmaster like Grandfather or Great-grandfather. Somoene who has a few generations after him learning the skill. Nowhere does it make any reference ot them being the 'best' or the only one...?

I still don't understand why you disagree with my statement before? Train hard and develop your own skill. Learn from the past as that's where the experience has come from but at the end of the day how good you get is up to YOU. Just train to be the best you can be, don't worry about what past masters have done or their legacy. Just develop the best you can be. Like i said the essence should still be the same That's what makes it WC. If it doesn't follow the principles, then in my mind it's no longer WC. Based on it maybe, but that's different.

I still think that WC is something personal. I don't do or use techniques the same as you will as we're both built differently and have a different character. That doesn't mean the principles are different though... just a different expression of them. Some people are more aggressive, others are softer. Still WC.

Actually i agree with what you said about rooting. That's why SLT is so important. It takes a long time to develop properly and shouldn't be rushed. But again, it depends on the purpose of the school. Fighting ability in a short amount of time, or studying the real skill? There is a HUGE difference there if you ask me.

Interesting about the Taijiquan and things :)
check ur PM,

david

dezhen2001

05-10-2002, 08:46 AM

Red5: i just sent u a PM but it says ur mailbox is full :)
i gotta run (Uni is closing)

c ya,
david

red5angel

05-10-2002, 08:50 AM

David, I like the way you look at those titles, its much more realistic, and still very respectful. I think, whether easterners think this way or not, westerners tend towards agrandizment when using terms like master or grandmaster. People tend to look at it as a level you reach.

Asfor disafreeing with your statement, I probably just misunderstood you. I think any art is personal, that is why I believe the word "art" is applicable even to the martial arts. At first, as in any art you learn the basics, how to do the things to 'be doing that "art". Once you have "mastered" these, then you begin to make that art your own. Diversity in doing things is just fine but what I see is that most have lost the basics, or quickly forget about them. For instance I like the word "Root" it has a double meaning to me, we root to the ground, much like a tree, but it is also the root from which WC grows......

byond

05-10-2002, 10:32 AM

hey red,
you know i was kidding about my lineage being better than yours right...lol.............:D ..wait no i wasnt..my lineage is best

red5angel

05-10-2002, 10:42 AM

byond, mine is best ;)

dezhen2001

05-11-2002, 02:26 AM

Hi Red, had to shoot off yesterday so it kinda cut the discussion short...

I thought that was how everyone viewed those titles:confused: As that's the way it always has been in my school as far as i know... kinda like the double meaning of Sifu as not only teacher, but more like teaching father (the family idea). :)

To be honest i haven't really seen much Wing Chun outside of my own school, as i'm too busy worrying about my own skill. hehe :p But from what i have seen, people put different emphasis on different things. I agree that the foundation and root SHOULD be developed properly - in all things, even painting, sculpture etc. They all have a 'foundation' that you have to learn. Rules are there to guide you, but once you transcend them you can push them to their limits/break them slightly. But you have to TRANSCEND them - how many people have that? Who knows?

That's why to me, lineage is important but also not important. My lineage to me is like the root of the tree - an oak tree that has lived for many generations and is still strong. If you train in the correct way, then you will develop the skill properly - if you don't you won't. No matter where you come from. period. :)

david

Alpha Dog

05-11-2002, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
From what I have come to see and understand, most wing chun out there is worthless watered down crap being taught by people who have no understanding of what it is really about.

How is it that your revered Carl and Ken haven't *****slapped you yet and told you to shut the **** up? I could see you posting your retarded drivel as your own opinions, but aren't they ashamed to be continually associated with it?

Anyway, as long as they don't mind, keep amusing me with your bumpkinesque prose.

Polaris

05-11-2002, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
I could see you posting your retarded drivel as your own opinions, but aren't they ashamed to be continually associated with it?

If they were aware of it, they probably would be.

Before I start I may as well point out that I use to live in Ohio and studied with a student of Carl's for a few years. I have met Carl on several occasions and do agree with what red5angel says about him.

red5angel- Now you are behaving yourself in a less than respectable manner, and that may very well reflect poorly upon your teacher. I gather that you have not been studying for very long, yet you still choose to badmouth others. Can YOU back up that which you are saying? If not then maybe you should keep your negative words to yourself.

urban tea

05-12-2002, 07:18 PM

Beyond

There are a few others that are good at wing chun as well such as Wong Long and Mun Siew ____. (forgot)

And did you know that Tsui Seung Tin's horse is very very high? Legs apart and the knees a tiny bit bent. It looks like it's straight!

But they do have the sinking sensation.

red5angel

05-13-2002, 07:38 AM

"To be honest i haven't really seen much Wing Chun outside of my own school, as i'm too busy worrying about my own skill"

Dezhen, I understand where you are coming from but how can you be sure what you are learning is the good stuff? how can you be sure you are not wasting your time learning what you are learning now? You are correct though, lineage isnt as important as skill is. Most Wing Chun people however are more concerned with what lineage they are learning then what skill they are gaining.

AD and Polaris - Carl and Ken are smart guys and am sure they are ware of my 'bad attitude', the problem is they have better things to do then police people on the internet. Maybe your sifu shoudl too? Polaris, I have been as repsectful as I can be. Asking questions isnt disrespectful, only if you feel threatened and that would be your problem not mine. I started this lineage thread because you people are so busy arguing what is real wing chun and what is the good lineage that you have lost site of what really matters. Regardless you are not my instructor and need not concern yourself with me. AD, if you talk long enough and loud enough, sometimes, someone will start to listen, for you, I am sure it will happen.

Ultimately this isnt about being disrespectful, as Yuanfen was kind enough to point out, me, speaking for Carl or Ken or any other esteemed instructor would be hubris and foolish. If this place were a place to be taken more serisouly then you might find me even more respectful. If you feel I am disrespecting you are your instructor or someone in you line, better stop and re read what I typed, or examine how you feel about it. Dont assume, its healthier and you will be happier.

dezhen2001

05-13-2002, 08:20 AM

Red5: how can i be so sure? Because i have been lucky enough to not only train with my Sifu and Sigung regularly, but also my Tai Sigung on 2 occasions and seeing everyone together tells me the bond is still strong.

If that bond wasn't there, then i would be wondering, but as such, i'm not at all.

Also anything i have asked or something i have been shown, have been answered and explained to me clearly. What more can you ask for in a teacher?

With both these things, i am quite happy. Now all i have to do is be a good student! :)

david

red5angel

05-13-2002, 08:39 AM

dezhen - you may have misunderstood me. When I said how do you know I was not talking about lineage so much as skill. If you do not go to see different types of wing chun how would you know that what you are practicing is good? Better yet, how about a little freindly competition? Some chi sao or sparring? I believe if you dont look around you wont have a measure of what it is you are doing?

dezhen2001

05-13-2002, 08:48 AM

well sure, i've played chi sao with other ppl from other schools b4, but a few ppl is no measure of another schools skill, only ours at the present time :)

But i think it's important to have a good foundation first by training within your own school - so u understand principles and movements. THEN you can play with them with other WC ppl and even other styles. Until then though, what's the point?

david

red5angel

05-13-2002, 09:10 AM

I think a few people from a school can be a good measure of the school, but not the lineage......you could of course just be touching hands with some of the bad students in a school but chances are equally goo you could be seeing the best they have to offer.

I agree to some degree about training first. Lets say you go to a martial arts tournemant, because you are interested in tournemant fighting. now would you say its a good bet that if one particular style seems to be winning consistantly, that may be the best choice to train in?
With wing chun, you may be correct in having to learn some before being able to say what is good and what is not, but in general you can get a feel for it by the way people are performing in the wing chun general populace. Some people will choose to stick stubbornly to what they have, without admitting they were wrong and going to another school, lineage, whatever. I have seen some good examples of this locally. For instance I am confident that once a few of my fellow students and I are ready to compete locally here with other wing chun schools, we will do much better then they, but most of those poeple who see this will decide they must train harder. However I believe it is better to train smarter.

dezhen2001

05-13-2002, 09:22 AM

Chi sau wise (infact everything wise) you can learn something from a bad person, just as much as a good person. Find out what makes them so and do your best to improve.

I'm quite happy to talk to ppl about other lineages, methods and even train with ppl from other schools and even other styles. It can only help my WC understanding develop. Actually i have done so locally here at University... a few of us met up for an informal Chi Sau session. It was fun :) So many different characters and ways of using the skill :)
But i do think that i need to have a solid foundation first, and that can't be gained through sparring other styles or lineages whatever. I think U need to learn how to use the structure and energy correctly first. Then u can do whatever you want...

People are all different: some open minded, some stubborn, some just want a past time to do a few times a week, health... as many different characters and reasons for training as there are people. So that's why i say just get on with what you're doing (whether that's trainig with other styles or whatever you want), develop your own skill the way you want to and other ppl will get on with theirs :)

I agree, train harder and smarter, but in the right way.

david

red5angel

05-13-2002, 09:36 AM

I pretty much agree with you on needing a good foundation first. Just arguing for the sake of digging deeper into the subject matter.

To soem extent it is your motivation, but that is part of my problem with the way people train. I dont see wing chun as a past time or a sport, for health or for 'self defense' per se. These may be side effects there of, but there are better MAs'out there for that, Tae Kwon Do makes a much better choice for health for example. But like many other arts wing chun is starting to fall into that marketing problem where you try to suck in everyone by advertising these 'benefits'. Wing chun is about fighting, its a fighting art. Thats the way I think those who want to practice it should practice it.
We have several different types of people in my class who are practicing wing chun for different reasons. But for most of those people they get to a certain level of ability and do not get any ****her.

urban tea

05-13-2002, 09:39 AM

Redangel,

Let it go. You have said what you have to say.

If he wants to work on his foundation before touching with others, let him be.

What's the point of going on with this discussion?

dezhen2001

05-13-2002, 09:46 AM

Quickly before the classroom closes (so much for study today...) :)

WC is a 'fighting art' as you put it. But what use is it if you're not healthy? Or don't have the right attitude? So surely those are the most important things to develop in the beginning? If ur not that then any technique you learn won't be strong or practical...

Thats the way I think those who want to practice it should practice it.

Key point is the I part... sure it is a fighting skill, but is that all there is to it? How come older ppl like Yip Chun for example (who's 79) still has so much energy and vitality? How come he can play chi sau with 50 ppl in a seminar one after the other and not even break a sweat? Sure it's fighting skill, but also because training has made him healthy, and developed the correct attitude. If he didn't have that - he'd just be like most other older generation people.

Also, how does the Taijiquan and Qi thing you mentioned before fit in to your fighting skill idea? (just curious)...

Personally, i think theres scope for everyone to learn whatever they want to learn. WC has a lot of depth... you can become immersed in it or just go for a paddle, but it's still WC skill :)

Be back in a few hours as it's 5.45pm and i need food :p

david

dezhen2001

05-13-2002, 09:48 AM

urban tea: finally someone else posts! :D

quite an interesting discussion actually. get to see someone elses view on things... wish some more ppl would chip in though (or do u all think it's pointless?) :)

david

red5angel

05-13-2002, 09:59 AM

UrbanTea - As dezhen says it is an interesting discussion. That is what this forum is for, discussing. We may differ on our view of things but can we not still learn from each other? Dezhen has some very good points, and it would seem we agree on most of it, the rest we are just talking about.

I agree that practicing wing chun can make you healthy but I dont think wing chun was designed to develope ones health, it is a side effect of working hard. For instance, I worked concrete for two summers, I was very healthy but I wasnt working concrete to get healthy. some people dont mind selling it as such though, especially if they think it will make them a buck or two.
I think that most wont reach the level they could because they are not willing to put the work into it. to get at the level that GMs and others at that level get, you have to make sacrifices. To get anywhere close, the same. I for one dont settle for mediocre, if I do something it is because I want to excel. If you want to do it for fun, or as a hobby that is fine, but dont go off and try to teach it as a hobby either.

As for Taiji and Qi- Qi is a part of any CMA, its just a question of to what degree. The tiaji is a warm up sort of thing. We do some excersises from Chen taiji for some basic reasons, to establish root being the biggest. A solid root is necessary to fight effectively, and the more solid the better you fight! along with everything else.

byond

05-13-2002, 11:41 AM

hey urban,
i hope you realise i was joshing around. red and i are from the same lineage.
i agree there are alot of great grandmasters out there ,tst comes to mind. wong long, chow tze chun, siu yuk man, ho kam min, ...i do believe that the first generation(early period)
really learned from yip man when he was at his prime. leung sheung, lok yiu, tst, wsl, and yip bo ching were really a cut above the norm.:D

dezhen2001

05-13-2002, 01:13 PM

hi Red5: back again after some food :)

Most of what you said above, to me comes from practising SLT. There you develop your rooting, relaxation, posture etc. which is appropriate for health as well as martial art skill. Actually, i've been having troubling times lately and my practise and attitude has really helped me survive it: if something happens or u can't see a way out, take a step back or to the side and approach from a different angle. Basic Chi Sau theory but is applicable to other situations as well.
I agree with the analogy you have said - working construction sure tones you up! But to be efficient at it and WC you have to be healthy and strong. The best way to be good at something is to train in that specifically. so by practising WC u become healthy for WC and in general also.

Just wondering: Qi is part of any martial art. So how come u use Chen instead of Wing Chun for that purpose? :)

david

gnugear

05-13-2002, 01:32 PM

Just wondering: Qi is part of any martial art. So how come u use Chen instead of Wing Chun for that purpose?

I'm not trying to answer for red5, but here's my take on it ...

The practice of Chen excercises in our warmups, help to engage the whole body. The larger movements make it easier to feel how the root effects the movement in the upper body.

I must stress that we are not practicing the form! We're just warming up! A similar analogy would be hip circles to loosen up the mid-section. We've just found that some particular Chen exercises reinforce the idea of "whole body unity".

red5angel

05-13-2002, 01:47 PM

Dezhen, I understand what you are saying, you do anything athletic if you are in better shape, what I am saying is that wing chun in and of itself is a.) not the best option for this, and b.) any health benefits it bestows are mostly happenstance. I agree that practicing wing chun will make you healthy for wing chun but health is relative. I have seen planty of 'unhealthy' people practicing Wing Chun.

Gnugear hit it right on the head, we ar enot necessarily practicing the taiji stuff for the qi but for the physical effects. Its a situation where you would probably have to see what we are doing to understand exactly what it is I am talking about........ needless to say, I am also one of those people who sees wingchun as mostly external. SLT has some internal qi developing type stuff going on but I dont think it is anything near most internal forms.

dezhen2001

05-13-2002, 01:50 PM

interesting guys :)
gotta go - this place is closing... maybe someone else will reply?

david

red5angel

05-13-2002, 02:39 PM

dezhen, sounds like you need to buy a laptop or something! ;)

dezhen2001

05-14-2002, 03:28 AM

Red5: lol - on my student budget i don't think so! So i'm at the mercy of when the IT room opens and closes i'm afraid...also the time difference is a pain in da ass as well :p

I think our views about WC differ slightly... but it's interesting. You see it as mostly External, but to me both Internal aspects and External aspects are balanced. Actually, i don't really see the classification at all. What makes something more Internal or External? Is it because we talk about Qi or muscle power? Or is it more how we use the structure and whole body, as well as the attitude we develop? This is something lately i've been wondering...?

Before our class starts, most of us do some general stretching and loosening exercises, but nothing at all like Chan Si Jin or other Chen movements. They do help develop the body connection, but i think WC has all it needs within it's own curriculum :)

david

red5angel

05-14-2002, 06:54 AM

Dezhen - I kind of figured that was the problem!

As for internal and external, well that could be argued for years and never come to any conclusion. Alot of times it is a matter of how you define each. For me internal is a more soft art, like Tai Chi. I know Bagua and Xingyi are supposed to be internal but I know next to nothing about the arts.

As for Wing Chun having all it needs in its cirriculum, you could be right. Wing Chun has everything it needs to do Wing Chun. But what if you found a tool or two to help you get there faster or stronger? I am sure things like this havebeen added and taken away from wing chun for a long time. We havent added anything to wing chun itself, just added some warm up excersises. For instance, I used to be a long distance runner. Running has all it needs to learn how to run, and run well. But we also varied out workout with hill workouts and sprint workouts. We also lifted weights periodically, all of this designed ot improve our performance. thats all these are designed to do, improve our performance. We do a lot of work on rooting, alot, especially in the first year and anything that can help us get there faster is always a boon.

gnugear

05-14-2002, 07:54 AM

I never quite understood why Xingyi is considered an internal style ... and not Wing Chun.

When practicing soft Wing Chun it cultivates much of the same internal chi. On the external side it does not rely on force ... so what's the difference?

yuanfen

05-14-2002, 08:06 AM

Not to worry-on empty labels.

red5angel

05-14-2002, 08:36 AM

gnugear, I have to agree with yuanfen. Wingchun has a good mix of both anyway.

dezhen2001

05-15-2002, 01:25 AM

yuanfen: that's what i mean - hence why i can't understand and am not really worried the classification anyway :)

Red5: again i agree to differ :) I've met plenty of people who have just trained WC and have very good skill. They just practised SLT, the other forms and chi sau a lot. But i do think that it's up to you what you train. If you feel that it's developing you, and things are ok with your Sifu then it's great.

Also why the rush? I'd rather develop the skill to it's clear and correct than try and rush something... (not saying that doing it any other way is of course). For me there is no rush in developing the skill - it will hapeen as long as i keep training. As for fighting, correct skill and application takes care of that. Meanwhile if i get beat up, then i get beatup... not much i can do about it :)

david

red5angel

05-15-2002, 08:01 AM

Dezhen - no real need to practice the warm ups we do to become good at wing chun, as I stated if you are a runner, and you just go out and run everyday, then you will run well. But if you want to compete, and I do, then you need every edge you can get. For running, wieght training, sprint workouts, etc.... for Wing Chun, throwing in some warm ups to help you develope root and structure.
I am in no particular rush. Carls teaching process is much slower then what I have seen and experienced in general. He focuses on precision and rootedness and we dont advance until we have a solid foundation in both. Alot of other wing chun schools will say this as well but in general, it seems instructors are willing to give up more, faster to keep students around. havent you walked into a school or class where all the students are doing "flopping hands"instead of sticky hands? Its pretty commn because people dont normally have the patience and for instructors they have to keep things fresh and new. Or atleast feel they have to.

"As for fighting, correct skill and application takes care of that"

You are correct here, my contention with this would be that most people dont know they do not posses this to the degree they should.

dezhen2001

05-15-2002, 08:19 AM

interesting: both of us agree, but form different viewpoints :)

Competing is a different kettle of fish from anything else though, and i do agree that being against hightly trained/conditioned atheletes you need an 'edge'. Whether that comes through supplementary training such as weights or anything else is up to you. Like i said, if it works (for you), then go for it.

For me, that's just not in my nature. We have slightly different reasons for training, so our attitude is different. That's a good thing. My main reasons are because i enjoy it, and would like to learn such a profound skill. Also health. That includes increasing my chances of defending myself, but that's not the be all...

Like i said before, i HAVE rolled with some other people, they have had differences to me and it was noticeable. But a few people form different schools are not good examples of a specific lineage or teacher. It's up to the student just as much as it's up to them. More i think just our understanding at the present time when we touched hands. If we meet again i'm sure it will be different as we all learned lessons.

I also agree that to learn WC takes a lot of patience and dedication... Again a different thing from fighting imo.

david

red5angel

05-15-2002, 08:44 AM

Dezhen - yes we agree from different sides of the same coin! I do not agree however that competeing is a different kettle of fish really. I do however agree that many people train in wing chun for many reasons and with different motivations. I do believe however that some of those reasons would be best served with other arts. Of course this is just my opinion.

It may not be the lineage in question when touching hands, but you can touch hands with a few students from a school and get an idea of how they train, if not then that tells you something about the worth of the school IMO.

"I also agree that to learn WC takes a lot of patience and dedication... Again a different thing from fighting imo"

I agree about patience etc.. but how is it different from fighting? you need patience and dedication to fight, sometimes even more so. For you, you are doing it for yourself, no need to push yourself harder if you dont feel like it. To compete one would have to push themselves whether they feel like it or not.

dezhen2001

05-15-2002, 09:05 AM

Well, of course i push myself as hard as i can. I want to learn the skill and not let myself, my sifu or anyone else down... what make syou think that's any different from those who compete?

I meant using WC skill is different form fighting in the sense that if i'm fighting i'm gonna scratch, claw, bite anything that moves and be a downright nasty bu*ger. That's not the same as WC to me (unless biting utilises the centreline principle ;)). Basically fighting i'm gonna do what i can to survive, WC is different. It's developing skill. Hopefully there is some crossover, but that's not 100%

Also - i can 'fight' without competing. I play with my friends from other styles sometimes and we all learn something from each other, no need for a competitive element at all. Competing develops a different attitude to just developing the skill or even just trying to survive (though there is some crossover). Again, different motivations for different ppl. I think WC can encompass all these things.

What i meant in the last thing you quoted is that many people are in a rush to start 'fighting', but with WC it doesn't really bother me at all. When my skill is good enough i can work on it, until then i need to get better... (thru forms and chi sau to develop my root).

you seem to be really enthusiastic about competing with ur skill.
good luck, i hope you do well (i'm sure you will).
for me i'm not, i just want to develop it as much as i can - it's a long term endeavour :)

david

red5angel

05-15-2002, 10:09 AM

"what make syou think that's any different from those who compete? "

Absolutely nothing! that was my point.
You make agood point about fighting and the difference. It is a subject I am still questioning, see my thread on fighting vs good ma. havent come to any of my own conclusions but you make a good argument for how they can be seperate.

Agreed, you can fight without competing.

"Competing develops a different attitude to just developing the skill or even just trying to survive "

I do disagree with this however. Like you said it could just be point of view but to me Wing Chun is stil a figting art and should be addressed as so. Even if you arent interested in competing or looking to fight on the street. Like I stated, walthough Wing Chun has some fringe benefits, I still believe that it was developed to be used for fighting. There is a strong spiritual side to the search soem have in the martial arts and that is fine but as I stated, there seem to be better arts for those things. Not saying you cant find those things in Wing chun but like running (my favorite example it seems!) you can do sprinting and weight lifting to possibly be able to run long distance but actually running long distance is the best most direct way.

Thanks for the encouragement, and I hope you find what you seek in Wing Chun whatever that may be.

dezhen2001

05-15-2002, 10:15 AM

Developing the skill covers all aspects including fighting skill, but the attitude is still different to that of competing or proving yourself.

david

urban tea

05-15-2002, 10:22 AM

Hi redangel and Dshenzehn,

I didnt know you were both from the same lineage! haha. Cool.

As for the post about how wc is healthy for you...I disagree that you compare the health benefits to working concrete.

Working concrete ...sure it gives you stamina and muscles (and a bad back) but wc gives you more than that. Not just wing chun but kung fu in general.

Sil Lum Tao when practiced for a while will give you internal benefits and your five major organs will sit in it's place. This is what my teacher told me. I'm not there yet..but it's similar to chi kung

dezhen2001

05-15-2002, 10:28 AM

urban tea: we are? mine is Yip Chun :)
Isn't your explanation basically what Qigong is? to be healthy?

david

red5angel

05-15-2002, 10:34 AM

Dezhen - Are you from the Leung sheung lineage?

UrbanTea - you and I know that, and obviously Dezhen knows that, but your average joe off the street may not know, or be interested in that. I have heard many theories on how much qi kung wing chun really has, almost all of them are different, and that is sort of my point. no one questions that it is for fighting right?
It would seem to me that for most chinese martial arts, qi kung is a part of them to some degree, some more then others. I think it is something the chinese just accepted as part of the martial arts.