What is Yin Fu Bagua?

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

I'd like to know what is it that distinguishes Yin style Bagua from other styles of Bagua. It seems that lately more and more people are becoming aware of the fact that there are other styles of Bagua, besides Jiang and Cheng.
So I'd like to know, what is it that set Yin style apart from other styles. What are some characteristics that determine wheter or not the style is Yin?

[count]

Just trying to stir the pot. Personally I don't think the differences are as great as you might think. Just read the songs, they apply to all styles of bagua. It's only the fact that Yin Fu is doing/teaching it that make it different. IMHO.

[blacktaoist]

Eight_Triagram_Boxer-what is it that set Yin style apart from other styles. What are some characteristics that determine wheter or not the style is Yin?



BT) I can say from my own experience, that I find Yin Style martial techniques more fierce in combat then other Ba Gua Zhang styles. For one there are so many things in Yin Style that set it apart from other Ba Gua Zhang systems , that a person would be dump not to see the difference, or two they just never train in a real Yin Style system to know the difference.

OK for one Eight, as you know Yin Style uses piercing palm as its main feature. Today there are Ba Gua practitioners utilizing dragon palm as their main feature, and calling it Yin Style. But the truth of the matter is the pirercing palm is the true palm for combat in Yin Style fighting systems.

A Yin style practitioner would utilize the piercing palm to set up their opponent or strike vital points on the face of their opponent. Other styles of Ba Gua utilize the dragon palm or pushing palm method as their main feature in form practice and fighting, and if you don't know by now, thats cheng and liu styles of Ba Gua main palm feature, not Yin style.

Yin Style form characteristics are also a far cry from other Ba Gua Zhang styles. If you ever see a real Yin style practitioner demonstrate their form, you will see more yang attacking energy evident in each Gua movement. Yin style movements are explosive and agressive, piercing palm, chopping palm , cutting palm, splitting palm, double headed snake palm, crab palm these are just a few of the palm techniques that a Yin style practitioner would use.

Today you see most Ba Gua Zhang practitioners that claim to practice Yin style demonstrate their So called Yin style Ba Gua Form smooth with nice looking flowing palms with no yang energy in any of their movements, they perform their Ba Gua like swimming dragon Ba Gua Zhang. Thats not Yin Style characteristics what so ever! But more of Cheng style features.

Yin Style utilize more yang characteristics in their movements because of the lohan shaolin , so the essential point is the merging of hard and soft, and powerful attack movements in form practice. This is why Yin style Ba Gua Zhang forms (GUA'S) under ones observation compare to other Ba Gua Zhang Styles, combat and form (GUA) features has grown separate from other Ba Gua systems characteristics.

Today most so called Yin Ba Gua Zhang practitioers only practice and perform soft and flowing swimming dragon movements with no kind of power or fa chin movements within the form they perform. Today what most of these practitoners are doing is cheng style. All they have to do is do the research to fnd out the truth, save money go to china, or just find a real Teacher, if thats what they what to do. I know I did mines, and I know Yin style when I see it. But most of all my viewpoint of Yin Style comes from my own experience in practicing the system.

Practice and live long


P.S.- Eight Triagram Boxer whats up with this week, I made you a copy of the tape of the Ba Gua Masters, That way you can see for yourself, What we talk about a week ago.

I hope you make me a copy of the Ba Gua tape you said you have for me? E-mail me so we can meet up in chinatown and exchange tapes sometime this week, Right now I'm at work, so if you like you can call me later on tonight.




Peace.

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Thanks BT.
So what you're saying is that Yin Fu's main characteristic is the Piercing Palm and none of that fancy "Swimming Dragon" jazz? It makes sense.
Good post!

[count]

Actually, the only swimming dragon I have seen was one performed by a Cheng stylist. The form was one of Sun Lu Tangs forms. There was a great deal of explosive, yang energy and did use many piercing palm strikes. This was not one of those "wushufied" forms either. I saw the intructor knock an opponent across the room with his palm stikes. I don't think this is exclusive to yin style and I also don't think yin style uses these methods exclusivly.

[blacktaoist]

Count you are right. Cheng style and other Ba Gua style utilize piercing palm, But the priercing palm is not other Ba Gua systems main palm, the dragon palm is what most other Ba Gua styles today practice. A cheng style practitioner maybe be able to utrilize the priercing palm in combat, as well as other Ba Gua fighting stsems.

But they will never obtain the same martial skill level or knowledge of making the piercing palm a powerful applicable weapon within combat like a Yin style practitioner. when it comes to utilizing the priercing palm as a great human weapon of variable powers and variables forms of attack, The Yin Fu practitioner is the expert on priercing palm.

Like I said before, today you have a lot of so called Yin style practitioners utilizeing the dragon palm and even the lotus leaf palm performing smooth flowing movements within each of their Gua's. Thats not Yin style characteristics what so ever or palm features. But they are Cheng style features all the way.


Real Yin style don't utilize and kind of gentle appearance within their form movements. We flow but each movement is power. Yang on the outside and yin in the inside (YI) the mind. From ones observation of seeing a real Yin Ba Gua practitioner perform Their Gua's, one will see all Yang movements explosive and agressive attacks of priercing palms, at the same time the Yin style practitioner facial expression is calm.

This is what the Yin Style master mean by, one must keep Yin inside and Yang on the outside, One practice their Yin Forms powerful and explosive like a lion (Ch'ien ) and simultaneously stay calm like a great sage, but have the attitude of a snake (K'an) showing no emotion.

But like I said Eight , all you see today and even at some web sites or even instructional so called Yin Ba Gua tapes is, people that claim to practice Yin Style doing Yin style like swimming dragon Ba Gua Zhang with no power or explosive fa chin movements within their Gua's , and they not even doing that right. What a joke!!

Peace

[Water Dragon]

OK Stupid question.

What's a piercing palm and what's a dragon palm? What do they do?
Thanks

[count]

Waterdragon,

I think BlackTaoist is possibly refering to willow palm where the fingers are slightly spread and the thumb is curved open to sight through the kwa(?) as described in the first song. The piercing palm holds the fingers together and thumb bent in. There was a thread about piercing palm not to long ago. Do a search. (BT, I only say this because our mother the palm that relates to the dragon gua, IS a piercing palm) I still say, and always have, that the zhang in baguazhang refers to the body and not the hand, since bagua is known for hitting with different fists, elbows, shoulders, hips etc, etc. as well as palms.

BlackTaoist, I have never seen any good video's, intructional or demonstrational that show Yin bagua. Maybe you could recommend some? What I have seen such as Xie's or He Jing Hans don't have the flavor of really good bagua. Teachers are well known to disguise things and hide things for the public so they can later tell where the person learned. Most teachers even in China never got the whole thing because teachers, later the government, would dictate what could be taught by whom. If it were not for some teachers like Dr. Painter and Jerry Alan Johnson, and Kumar threatening to spread what they were calling bagua at the time, I don't think the Chinese would be teaching bagua here in this country. Maybe that's a little to broad of a statement, but I think you get the idea. Have you ever seen any good video's showing Yin style?

[maoshan]

Peace All

What's up count?

I have to also point out some differancesin the styles.
Yin Fu forms have a tendancy to cut through the middle of the circle. Also, in the classic guard stance, the upper body is held more foreward with the butt protruding, but the back is still held straight.

As for the video,
I sell it.
The tape is of the successor of Sun Ru wen. Gong Bao Tian's classmate.
and it's a hot form. complete with Yin Charecteristics
E-mail me

Peace
Maoshan

[count]

Maoshan,
I don't know if you got the e-mail I sent through this site. Maybe your profile has changed (along with your phone, I guess) I'm having some problems with e-mail this month too. Let me know by e-mail where your at so you can hook me up with that video.

[razakdigital]

What I think distinguishes Yin from other Pa Kua styles are the palms the TBT talk about earlier in his post. I also see Lohan styles (that from my research and training is the style you should learn first before you learn Yin. Yin Fu and Dong Hai were Lohan fighters) mixed in with Yin. Yin is very aggresive and not as "pretty" as other forms of Pa Kua. It also seems to be one of the most straigthforward styles of Pa Kua that I've seen in my years of training.

I personally don't a person can say they are doing Yin Fu Pa Kua if their main and most effective palm is not Piercing and Cutting Palm.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I agree with razakdigital that a background in Lohanquan helps undertanding of Yin Fu Baguazhang. It provided the martial context from which these guys went internal. It was the basic skill upon which their Bagua was built.

In terms of application tendancy I also feel that Yin Fu differs from mot other Bagua. Cheng Tinghua was a mid-range grappler and it shows up in the form, which includes many more throwing set-ups than the Yin Fu style. As blacktaoist said "explosive and aggresive attacks of piercing palms." When I asked my teacher about throwing he said "In this style you don't worry about throwing him, just pierce. It doesn't mean you can't throw but the pierce is the primary weapon."

[Guandi]

>If it were not for some teachers like Dr. Painter and Jerry Alan Johnson, and Kumar threatening to spread what they were calling bagua at the time, I don't think the Chinese would be teaching bagua here in this country. <

Do you mean that what thay are or were teaching is not really Ba Gua, but is just called Ba Gua by them?

regards