ooh lookie, video clips!

[MaFuYee]

Brush Knee (http://yangtcc.com/brushknee.mov)


Single Whip (http://yangtcc.com/singlewhip.mov)

[IronFist]

Both links were broken for me. I got the broken quicktime image thing.

IronFist

[dezhen2001]

:confused:

[Shadow Dragon]

What style was that again??
:confused: :confused:

[Kristoffer]

broken link

[MaFuYee]

ironfist;
that sucks.
it seems to work ok on my pc.

shadowdragon;
tai chi.

[David Jamieson]

Uh, those movies were not only poor quality, but they were not what the links said they were.

The "brush knee" clip shows some guy throwing a jab in his cramped hallway and the "single whip" is the same blurry and pixelated individual throwing a cross or another jab(hard to tell at angle).

Either way, these look like home boxing videos showing "speed" techs or whatever.

peace

[Shadow Dragon]

shadowdragon;
tai chi.

I thought they would be from the names, but what was shown was NOT those moves.

[MaFuYee]

hey, i don't know what you guys are talking about.
looks like tai chi to me.

[Royal Dragon]

The first is just a Jab reverspunch combo, some sort of boxing

The second is a pull down with the lead hand and spear the throat with the back combo. It's some sort of external Kung Fu, definately not Taji, I have something similar in one of my Louhan texts, and my Southern Tai Tzu form "Four corners" only in that the attack is a punch instead of a spear hand.

[David Jamieson]

hmmm, barring the surmising that you are being facetious, :D , You honestly don't think that is Tai chi do you?

There are many here who can point you in the right direction to seeing what Tai chi actually does look like.

peace

[MaFuYee]

kung;
umm. i do honestly think that that is tai chi.
you don't honestly think that tai chi people fight in slow mo, do you?

RD;
some sort of boxing? - yes, exactly. - tai chi, aka loose boxing.

[David Jamieson]

No, I don't think that a person versed in Tai Chi would fight in slow motion. They would likely fight to the best of their ability and understanding, like anyone else.

The individual in the clips you posted was fighting no one.

peace

[Shadow Dragon]

MaFuYee.

Honestly, I don't know what those Videos are supposed to be.

As a Tai Chi student I can tell you it ain't Tai Chi and those ain't the 2 moves that the Clips are titled with.

As for fighting slow, yeah sure, I also believe that BaGua Guys circle their opponents till they get dizzy and fall over.

Peace.

[mantis-1]

I have never heard Tai Chi Chuan refered to as loose boxing, maybe it's just me...

[norther practitioner]

I see you using and advanced style....I wondered where you learned it from

It is Grand Ultimate fist

Taiji

Yes, I learned from an old man, named Chang San Fang, on Wudan mountain.

We are sworn enemies

wahhhhhhh

we must duel to the death

[Kristoffer]

pure crap --still broken link though

[MaFuYee]

you know, the last time me and my buddies beat someone up, it took 6 and a half hours. - granted we only hit him twice. ;)

kristoffer;
i think you probably don't have 'quicktime' installed on your computer.

mantis1;
supposedly, tai chi was once known as Hao Chuan; loosely translated to "loose boxing". (at least according to some yang jwing ming book)

shadow dragon;
ok, well, do you practice tai chi for health only?
or do you actually fight with it? (and i don't mean just having someone slowly feeding you a punch.) - when was the last time you put on the gear and went at it, in your tai chi class?
(and, were you actually using tai chi, or were you just kickboxing?)

* does no one recognize tai chi when they see it?

- what do you all think tai chi is supposed to look like?? - and where are all the other tai chi people? - surely someone out there has the tiniest clue(?) - no?

[Kristoffer]

Well you COULD post it on the internal forum :rolleyes: .. But I don't dare to go there, there all very touchy since I called them *******s. (After a rough day, but try explaining that to a bunch of *******s ;) )


MaFuYee
I have quicktime but my cp is all ****ed up lately. Virus and stuff, my advice to u is.. Delete Kazaa (if u use it) quick. Dont ask, just do it. Trust me you will thank me for it. *sigh*

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

that's you right MaFuYee ?

[MaFuYee]

uh... maybe.
:D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

it installs a sh!t load of spyware. you need to get adaware. you can download the program here http://www.lavasoftusa.com/downloads.html. run it and get rid of the adware files it finds. you can also remove the add page and change the max search results for kaza .. . i got calls coming in so ill dig for the directory and reg entry in a minute.

[Royal Dragon]

A stand up Grappeling system. Strikes do exist, but are like only 20-30% of the system at best. Show an Akido Clip done with guys In Tai Chi uniforms, and you would fool many more people.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you go to C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc

and open up the hosts file in notepad. add this to the very bottom:

127.0.0.1 localhost
127.0.0.1 www.brilliantdigital.com
127.0.0.1 desktop.kazaa.com
127.0.0.1 shop.kazaa.com
127.0.0.1 www.bonzi.com

you can just cut and paste it right from above. this will remove the add page from morepheus and kazaa.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if you want to change the max search results go to start, run, and type in regedit. you will then double click on hkey current user, software, kazaa, and advanced. you will see an entry for max search result. right click on this and select modify. you can change the value number to anything you want for more search results. i put mine at 500 which upped it to a little over a thousand.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

sh1t . . . there is one file you need to keep after running adaware in order for kaza to work. i can remember what it is, and was going to check my list of ingnore files, but i just noticed my version of adaware at work is in german. i had just screwed with it the day before at home and didn't really care that it was in germen cause i knew where to add that file to.

when you run adaware you will have to check everything it found that you want deleted. for now just keep anything that has the c:/program files/kazaa lite directory. you'll still be running allot better for getting rid of 90% of that stuff.

[Shadow Dragon]

shadow dragon;
ok, well, do you practice tai chi for health only?
Nope

or do you actually fight with it? (and i don't mean just having someone slowly feeding you a punch.) - when was the last time you put on the gear and went at it, in your tai chi class?
(and, were you actually using tai chi, or were you just kickboxing?)


Yes, we do spar, but put no gear on when doing so.

Have a nice Day, sir.

[Royal Dragon]

I just work the mechanics. So far every time I tried to fight with Mb taji in practice my partner never came back afterwards :confused: :confused:

[MaFuYee]

royal dragon;

i am shocked. - you've never seen brush knee before? - good lord almighty! - this is BASIC snit! tai chi 101 ... hello?!? anybody home?!?

- stand up grappling system? - thats an odd way of describing it.

- i would say aikido is far more like certain schools of bagua, than tai chi.

tai chi has many of the same techniques as shuai chaio. (which makes more sense than tai chi resembling aikido) ... it has lots of throws, but, i don't really see too much chin na type stuff in it. (did you mean that tai chi has lots of throws, or siezing and locking?)

frankly, i am very surprised that you would say that i am trying to "fool" people. - what is that about?!? - now, i understand that i'm moving a little faster than those old folks you may see in the park; but, remember, tai chi IS a martial art. - and, if you want to actually hit someone, you sometimes have to move a little bit faster than you do when practicing the form.

and, what kind of statement is that, that tai chi is only 20-30% strikes??

hmmm... lets see.

brush knee - strike.
single whip - strke.
lift hands - strike.
snake creeps down - strike.
grasp sparrows tail - strike.
ward off - strike.
crane spreads wings - strike.
fan through back - strike.
repulse monkey - strike.
press - strike.
push - strike.
hit tiger - strike.
box ears - strike.
lotus sweeping kick - strike.
fist under elbow - strike.
elbow - strike.
shoulder - strike.
punch to heart - strike.
squatting side punch - strike.
golden rooster - strike.
jab clouds - strike.
deflect down, back fist, punch - strikes.
fair lady works at shuttles - strike.
separate right/left - strike.
forward groin punch - strike.
step back, block and slap - strike.
bend bow shoot tiger - strike.
heel kick - strike.
white snake sticks out tongue - strike.
...

in the tai chi i do, every move is a strike.
what kind of tai chi do you do??

please, if you really think that what i was doing in those clips was not correct, please let me know the right way to do it, because, i guess i must have been doing it wrong for all this time. - thanks.

shadow dragon;
ok. i understand.

[Royal Dragon]

brush knee - strike. - Redirect and clear
single whip - strke. - Throw
lift hands - strike. - Elbow break
snake creeps down - strike. - Throw
grasp sparrows tail - strike. Elbow break
ward off - strike. - Elbow break
crane spreads wings - strike. - Redirections of incomming attacks
fan through back - strike. ?
repulse monkey - strike.
press - strike. ?
push - strike.
hit tiger - strike. Same as cary tiger home from mountian?- Throw
box ears - strike.
lotus sweeping kick - strike. - Disrupts structure
fist under elbow - strike. Breaks elbow, and sets up a throw
elbow - strike.
shoulder - strike.
punch to heart - strike.
squatting side punch - strike. Grabs arm, punches uner grion and thrown opponents spine onto your knee, or if fully applied spins them head first into the ground
golden rooster - strike.
jab clouds - strike. Waving hands like clouds?? Ties up opponents arms
deflect down, back fist, punch - strikes.
fair lady works at shuttles - strike. ?
separate right/left - strike. Splitting?? bends arms and seperates shoulder from socket
forward groin punch - strike.
step back, block and slap - strike. - Throw
bend bow shoot tiger - strike. Elbow break
heel kick - strike.
white snake sticks out tongue - strike done from sbake creeps down is a throw

[dubj]

What style of tai chi do you do because many of those applications sound similar to what I am learning and we also have a four corners form. I don't know if that is a coincidence or what but I was told our system has royal roots from our great grandmaster Willem Reeders from the Liu family. It is a system that originates from shaolin with bagua like techniques and a seperate tai chi style which origins I am not sure of. I just think it would be cool if there was some sort of connection there.

[MaFuYee]

brush knee:
redirect and "clear"? - there is no strike??

brush knee:
1. strike - redirect and strike simultaneously.
2. trap and strike
3. throw to the 45 degree angle
4. throw involving wrapping the neck
5. against a cross punch, used to injure attackers spine. (with possible damage to attackers elbow and knee.)

* block kick, and offbalance by pushing on chest is b.s. app. - only good for kf magazines.

single whip: "throw"
- i take it you mean, use it as they show in kf mags. - where the app is mearly identical to that of the 'part horses mane' throw? - why the redundancy? - esp. when using the palm up method, as in 'part mane', is more effective structurally, then using the single whip posture? - why then is it called single WHIP?

1. hook and strike (90% of time)
2. elbow dislocation (10% of time)
3. throw (0% - use "part horses mane" instead.)

lift hands: "elbow break"
- just a matter of semantics, but, it's a dislocation; and that app is very difficult to pull off against a strike, but can only be used in a grappling/push hands type of situation.
the much more common application would use lift hands as a simul. "block"/strike. - then, most often transition to "strum lute/play pipa" to twist the neck, and throw the head against the ground.
2. simul. "block" and slap
3. used to raise opponents arms as set up for implied kick to ankle or knee.

snake creeps down: "throw"
- you mean, the "fireman's carry" - yes, i see that app shown in kf mags all the time. - however, i don't believe that was the indended use, as if you notice, the tai chi form is "right handed". more so in the older (pre-standardization) forms. (certain postures are only done one way; single whip, snake creeps down, punch down, pull down, lotus kick, crane spreads wings, bend backwards, fist under elbow, jab clouds, (not wave hands in clouds - jab clouds may not be in the form you do.) squatting side punch, fan through back, etc. etc. etc....) - i think if it was intended to be used as the fireman's carry, it would be done the other way around, in the form. (think about it.)

"snake creeps.." is definitely a strike.
can also be used to push against the side of the knee, but is rarely used thusly.

grasp sparrows tail: "elbow break"
- same argument as for 'lift hands', although i feel that when using "grasp..." to dislocate the elbow, you have a higher likelihood of succeeding, as you are fist catching the arm, and then sliding one hand down to the wrist. (obviously does not work well against jabs.)

1. catch arm, break ankle with implied kick.
2. push chin, pull small of back, hook leg.
3. deflect upper level punch strike ribs
4. deflect lower punch, strike neck
5. catch arm and continue momentum, ala aikido. (can only be used against untrained, or poorly trained attackers, who overcommit.)

ward off: "elbow break"
boy, you really like that elbow 'break', don't you? - it's actually a lot simpler than that. do ward off, left and right, then do it faster. then go faster than that. then, just a little faster, and the application will come to you. (maybe.)

crane spreads wings: "redirection of comming attacks"
- no. it a block/strike (50%) throw (50%)

fan through back: "?"
- may not exist in the version you do.
anyway, it's a deflect and strike, followed by that throw where you dislocate the elbow on your shoulder, and flip the guy over your back to throw him on the back of his neck.

repulse monkey: "strike"
yeah! - deflect and strike.

press: "?"
come on now... it's "press" for crying out loud. - you use it to hit the guy! - like in push hands, only you HIT the guy, so you hurt him, instead of just pushing him away, so he can come and try to hurt you again. (duh!)

push: "strike"
yeah!

hit tiger:
(not carry tiger back to mountain. - i agree with you analysis that it's a throw.)
hit tiger; sometimes refered to as something like, "strike belly..." - anyway, it's a strike.

box ears: "strike"
yeah! - also used to dislocate elbows (your fave).
also used to throw.

lotus sweeping kick: "Disrupts structure"
:confused:
i think i'll leave that one alone;
but, it has "kick" in the frickin name. - how do you think it's used? - it's also a throw.

... i'm tired now... must sleep.

[Royal Dragon]

It was developed by the Emperor Chao Kuang Yin. The same Emperor that founded the Sung dynasty.


Our Taji was developed by the Chao family from our original 32 move Long Fist form, the same 32 move form Chen Wang Ting used as a foundation for the Chen style.

Are you guys of Liu Yun Quao's lineage?

I am looking into his Tai Tzu form. From the description, it sounds like it may be our advanced internal form. I am looking for someone willing to send me a video of it so I can work the set out, and compare it to some of our sets.


Aparently he was a body gaurd for Royalty during the Ming dynasty. The Chao family is said to have been close to the Ming's ruleing family as well, and infact ran south with them to become Hakka when the Manchurians conquered the Ming.

My "Theory", is Liu Yun Quao may have been a royal guard for the Chao, and became close enogh to them to where they actually taught them the set. Back then Tai tzu was not taught openly (not that it is today either), and only trusted few got more than the Northern external system. If my theory is correct, Liu Yun Quao had to either BE family, or adopted into the Chao Family, or almost so.


Hey, i just noticed that Quao and Chao sound the same, is that two different spellings for the same name?? And is Quao the sur name in Liu Yun Quao. It would be interesting to discover Liu Yun Quao was actually a Chao family member ehy?

Commets anyone?

Royal Dragon

[Royal Dragon]

lift hands: "elbow break"
- just a matter of semantics, but, it's a dislocation; and that app is very difficult to pull off against a strike, but can only be used in a grappling/push hands type of situation.

Reply]
Difficult against a strike? Really? Try engaging just before emptyness wile the incomming strike is still in forward monetum. Use his monetum to carry the arm to an over extension, and this one just sort of happens by itself. Pakua foot work helps with setting this one up.


single whip: "throw"
- i take it you mean, use it as they show in kf mags. - where the app is mearly identical to that of the 'part horses mane' throw? - why the redundancy? - esp. when using the palm up method, as in 'part mane', is more effective structurally, then using the single whip posture? - why then is it called single WHIP?

Reply]
It's called Whip becaue of the mechanics involved. I not sure how you would describe it, I'd have to show you live. This is a throw used after catching a Kick. Or, an elbow break with the shoulder after catching a punch followed by a strike to the face.


snake creeps down: "throw"
- you mean, the "fireman's carry" - yes, i see that app shown in kf mags all the time. - however, i don't believe that was the indended use, as if you notice, the tai chi form is "right handed". more so in the older (pre-standardization) forms. (certain postures are only done one way; single whip, snake creeps down, punch down, pull down, lotus kick, crane spreads wings, bend backwards, fist under elbow, jab clouds, (not wave hands in clouds - jab clouds may not be in the form you do.) squatting side punch, fan through back, etc. etc. etc....) - i think if it was intended to be used as the fireman's carry, it would be done the other way around, in the form. (think about it.)

reply]
Firemans carry is good, but for me, I guide through the legs, wrap behind the knee, ad throw with a shoulder ramming into the groin to set up a nice structure breaking fulcrum. It's much faster than trying to carry them, easier on the back,and takes advantage of momentum, thus useing less of your own strength.


grasp sparrows tail: "elbow break"
- same argument as for 'lift hands', although i feel that when using "grasp..." to dislocate the elbow, you have a higher likelihood of succeeding, as you are fist catching the arm, and then sliding one hand down to the wrist. (obviously does not work well against jabs.)

Reply]
Ty engaging the Jab with roundness before it is fired, Jabs are easy to controll from a closer range, and of little concern once you engage them with roundness.


press: "?"
come on now... it's "press" for crying out loud. - you use it to hit the guy! - like in push hands, only you HIT the guy, so you hurt him, instead of just pushing him away, so he can come and try to hurt you again. (duh!)

Reply]
Ok, but what about when you use it from an already existing contact where you launch someone by just rounding?

The way I have been taught Taji, most ot the applications are China, of mulitple jionts, including spine, and throws with strikes thrown in for good measure. Applications of the moves in Taji can be interperted MANY MANY ways. Strikes are only part of vertually every application I have, 1/3 AT BEST, and that's being generous.

... i'm tired now... must sleep.

Reply]
Me too, it's past 1 AM here now, and I should have been asleep hours ago...........................

[MaFuYee]

RD;
haven't forgetten about this thread yet.

re: lift hands;
that app is easy when the punch is being fed to you, or against someone who isn't a really good puncher. (most newbies) - however, against someone with a western style boxing background, and real ring experience, the punches will be of an entirely different level. - using lift hands in such a manner against a jab fake, leaves you open to getting hit with the cross, and is generally not as easy as you describe. - of course if the person you train with doesn't know how to punch, or is just feeding you the punches, it is easy to do, and also easy to gain a false sense of confidence. (* i wouldn't try it at gleason's gym.)

re: fireman's carry;
that is just the wrestling name for the throw you're describing. - i am not saying you would use it to carry people out of burning buildings. ;) - and again, i think if that was the intended use, it would be done with the right hand 'creeping down', rather than the left.

re: engaging with roundness;
i don't know how well your training partners know how to jab. - try and get some training time with some skilled am/pro boxers. - there's a world of difference.

re: launch by rounding;
i don't find it useful to do so; if i do, then it is most likely because i messed up beforehand, and find myself in an undesirable position, from which i feel i need to create some distance. - if using 'press' in such a manner, i find it much more useful to direct it in a downward line, rather than horizontal or diagonally up. - but 90% of the time, it is done as a strike, meant to injure, rather than just push the guy away, so he can come at me again with a big haymaker.

re: Taji can be interperted MANY MANY ways;
really?? - maybe not that many ways, if only 1/3rd can be interpreted as strikes, and most of it is chin-na, with a few throws sprinkled in.

i will be the first to admit that my opinions fly in the face of tai chi dogma; but, does that really mean that it is not valid? (what do 90% of tai chi folk really know?)

if what i'm doing in those clips (which i feel is incredibly basic) is not recognizable as tai chi to you, go ahead an dismiss it as laughable, if it makes you feel better; but i have yet to read any reasons as to WHY you feel it is not tai chi, other than, it is not what you have seen before. (and, as everyone out there obviously knows everything there is to know about tai chi, it must not be that.)

shake your foundations!

[SifuAbel]

Well, I downloaded the the .mov s. I slowed it down to see what he was doing and paused on the striking frame.

He is doing the correct end position for BTK with palms open, but he is just popping it out and not showing the complete move. He omits the initial parry and goes straight to the low parry and strike.

He is doing some kind of parry and spear hand in the second clip. Not really recognizable as single whip as a yang stylist would see it. Looks more like something out of my monkey form. From that point of view single whip is a much broader set of strikes. Not that it couldn't be some other styles "single whip".

Either way it looks more like tai chi pieces. Quick blurbs done for speed. It is fast but it cuts down tai chi's absorbing quality.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

what i have learned sounds a little more similar to mfy, but what rd says makes sense too.

why can't two diferant schools teach differantly?

[MaFuYee]

sifu able;
re: "...not showing the complete move..."

it's just the difference between form and application.

the way i learn tai chi, when doing the form, the movements are large and exaggerated. - very big circles. - but, when putting them into application, one makes the movements smaller.

in the form the movements are large, slow, and continuous. but, in application, the movements have to be small, quick, and explosive. - for me to bring the striking hand all the way back behind me, before striking, and using a big sweeping motion for the defelection, would leave the attacker tons of time to withdraw his first punch, parry the attack which he would see comming from a mile away, and then do some serious damage. - not good.

just as in most 'external' kung fu systems, one does not use the same exaggerated bow and arrow stance, or horse stance, as done in tthe forms to fight, but rather a smaller, less "formal" version of them, so also with tai chi.

the application for single whip that i did, is tai chi's equivalent of western boxing's jab punch, and the app i did for brush knee, would be the equivalent of boxing's cross punch. - tai chi 101.

we don't use the 'jab, cross' when we spar; we use single whip, brush knee. - why, because we do tai chi, not boxing. - and, when i hear people telling me they practice tai chi, but do not even recognise perhaps the most basic of techniques, it makes my head spin in amazement.

it's like a self proclaimed boxer saying, "duh, what's that??" upon seeing someone throw a jab, and a cross.

also, it amazes me when people say they spar in their tai chi class, and don't recognize the most basic of techniques. - i can only assume they really are just doing kickboxing. (not that there's anything terrible about kickboxing; but, it not "tai chi".)

GDA;
every school teaches differently, and i agree that every posture in tai chi has multiple applications; but, to me, what people seem to be doing, is kind of like this:

lets say i posted a vid clip called "reverse punch". - and in the clip, i just did a basic western style cross punch, with my hand in guard position, rather than doing the deep front stance, and pulling my hand into chamber position, staying frozen in the final position, while screaming like a lunatic... then everybody starts say, "hey! what the hell is that?? - that's not karate!..." - and then, some guy comes along and starts saying the application of "reverse punch" is a grapple, and that karate is only 30% strikes at most...

- well, i do know grappling applications for reverse punch, but to say that the primary application is not a strike, and that using as such, is not even a valid application, to me just seems ridiculous.

if people stereotype tai chi folks as not being able to fight... i think i know why. - and, it's too bad, because tai chi is an awesome art, with beautiful simplicity, and effectiveness. - but, in order for it to be effective as a fighting art, one has to know how it's used.

[MaFuYee]

sifu able;
re: "...Quick blurbs done for speed. It is fast but it cuts down tai chi's absorbing quality..."

thanks for saying it's fast ;) i thought it was kinda slow. - i guess it just looks fast because the clip is choppy. (and, i was trying to keep the file size small, for those of us with slow connections.)

but, as far as cutting down on tai chi's absorbing quality; a small parry is all you need. - anything more is just wasted movement.

if i am going to parry a punch, i don't need to bring his arm down to his waist; if i move it an inch, and it misses me, mission accomplished. - anything more, he will feel, and perhaps have time to counter. - truely, "less is more".