mantis vs BJJ

[PaulLin]

Well, not just BJJ, any grabling, like Judo, etc. I am thinking of Maintis way against movements to such. The first I come up with is the mantis claw, it can be used to resist many submmision holds, such like an arm bar. I don't know if any one else has any thing on this aspect.

[MightyB]

Not sure what you're going for with this thread.

Most submission holds are on the ground. The submission fighters don't do standing arm bars and such. The only standing submission hold that I can think of is the guillotine and a mantis player wouldn't place himself into a position to let a submission fighter do that hold since it requires the aggressor to shoot too high with their head down, and I don't know of any mantis shooting techniques.

Mantis hooks and any standard standing chin na would be pretty ineffective against a sidemount armbar, toe hook, figure four leg lock, knee bar, rear mount choke, triangle choke, ankle lock, nose grinder, hip crank, etc. Those are all in the submission fighters bag of tricks.

All I can say is to use mantis effectively in the standing position and don't get taken to the ground. Other than that, learn to submission wrestle Pancrase style. BJJ, Sambo, Judo etc. aren't quite as effective as Pancrase style submission wrestling which is based on western freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling. They are too formal and rigid where Pancrase is more free flowing and inclusive of effective techniques. Read Ken Shamrock's "Inside the Lions Den" as a primer in Pancrase methodology.

Don't get me wrong, I love 7* Mantis, but I'm also a realist. And, being a realist, I don't underestimate the value of learning ground fighting.

[Tainan Mantis]

Good advice on extra learning stuff.

When I went to visit Mantis108 in Canada he showed me the Taiji PM 8 Elbows form. It has a unique way of applying the guillotine.

He said," Now here is a cool move."
He forearmed me in the head then jumped up like a monkey and BAM! Pulled me into the hold. I didn't shoot in for anything, he did it while I was standing.
This was impressive since I outweigh him by a substantial amount.

[MightyB]

Tainan,

That couldn't have been too fun for you, but that would be an awesome move for you to put in your arsenal. Mantis 108 and you always have really good stuff to share.

--------

I don't want to get on this over glorifying of ground fighting though. I like kung fu, but there are instances when Kung Fu is a little too dangerous to use and submission holds are better. For instance, a lot of guys on this forum are young and they probably are getting ready to go to college. Well, you just can't go around poking people in the eyes, crushing their throats, and busting their limbs when you're in school.

I'll give you a couple of examples from my college days. I have a friend who was a power lifter and a bouncer. He also knew just enough Judo to be dangerous. One day, he grabbed my wrist and asked me what I'd do. I went for the standard chin na counter and I couldn't apply it because he was too strong. He's about 6 foot 230 pounds, I'm 5'8" and weigh about 142 pounds. I know that in that situation you're supposed to soften the guy up before the chin na, but I couldn't just kick and hit my friend. Needless to say, he picked me up and slammed me on the floor. Luckily, I'm a better wrestler than he is and I got up before he could do the mount. The hold was broken, so technically I countered successfully.

Another instance was similar but with my brother. He's also bigger than me. We were play fighting and he got me to the ground. (You can't just kill your brother so that eliminates about 2 thirds of Kung Fu technique). I put him into what's known as a key-hole-lock and forced him to submit on the ground.

That's really the value of learning that stuff. Besides, it's kind've fun to try something different once in a while.

Talk to you later.

[Mantis9]

Nope, I'm not joking. Cross-training with grapplers, and as a free style wrestler in my school days, I've notice that our 12 character principles translate well to the ground. So, here's my theory:

Being a principle based style coupled with PM's history of absorbing other styles forms and techniques, PM is a great grappling system. Of course, development in that direction has been slight. The ground fighting PM form, which I seen, does put more enphasis on striking while hugging to the floor, but could be translated more closely to more grappling focus.

Anyway, more later.

[mantis108]

Hi Guys,

This is one of the most interesting topic since I am sure quite a few of us have a solid background in Mantis applications. Although different branches of Mantis often approach combat differently, but we all adhere to similar concepts and philosophies. So we can explore this base on a solid Mantis perspective. Please remember that this has to be clearly bore in mind, otherwise we are no longer approaching the question like traditional Kung Fu stylists, who we are, but MMA stylists, who we are not.

I am sure that we have all heard about the Dei Tang Lang (Ground Mantis form). Having said that I will also have to point out the TJPM or Meihwa's 7th section of Dzai Yao is also a ground fighting form, which Sifu Ilya Profatilov seems to have this one. Anyway, my point is that our pass Mantis masters have already been working in this area. So there should not been any doubt that we shall develop ground fighting skill.

As for Mantis and BJJ, I have some interesting thoughts. BJJ has its root in Jit Jutsu which is pretty much a Japanese MA. I found it very interesting that those Chinese coastal provinces (i.e. Fujian and Shandong) which were under Japanese pirates invasions all have ground fighting in mind while those inland areas seem less developed in this aspect of fighting. Could it be the numerous conflicts of them brought the needs? Anyway, ground fighting is no stranger to Mantis.

In investigateing BJJ, we found that BJJ is a style of ground fighting but it is not the other way around. This mean that there are many approaches to ground fighting other than BJJ's. The main feature of BJJ is the highly developed guard positions which is fighting laying on the ground. The other 2 positions are side control and mount. The guard, the side control and mount made up the bulk part of ground fighting and BJJ is exceptionally good in the guard position where it can launch attacks such as the straight arm bar, etc... As we can see the guard is may be a thrid of the entire ground curriculum. Personally for Mantis, we can make use of side control/mount position. This way we can keep the mobility and most of the mantis techs in tact.

I am having a student from the Edmonton club visiting me now and we need to work out a bit now. So I will have to cut short on this one right now. Will be back for more.

Paul,

Thanks for the great thread. I don't think I can stop talking about it. :D

Mighty B,

Great points and thank you for the kind words. I hope I could do more for the community.

Tainan,

Thank you, my friend, you give me too much credit. :D The move that I showed you would be even more powerful in your hands. I am glad you like it.

Mantis 9,

Love to hear more about your opinion. Thanks for sharing.

Regards

Mantis108

[NorthernMantis]

(You can't just kill your brother so that eliminates about 2 thirds of Kung Fu technique). lol:D

[Mantis9]

Mantis108 has a great point: past masters were not sheltered from wrestling focused opponents. (If I'm paraphase correctly.)

MightyB has a great point: eye gouging or destroying limbs are not always appropriate (thank goodness!!)

My perspective has changed after reading your two posts. First, I believe that the fundamental tools are there in PM, whatever branch or lineage you may adhere. Now, whether you decide to approach the grappling opponent by avoiding his/her area of expertise or fight on the ground, I am sure that PM will not fail you. You simply have to explore that aspect of the game. And second, practicing non-damaging chin na and controling techniques in free flowing should be a decent part of are workouts. Recently, my sigung has been on a chin na kick, which has really opened my eyes to how PM naturally lends itself to opening the opponent to the possibility of chin na without destroy your opponents ability to carry on a normal life afterward.

Anyway, more later.

[mantis108]

To effectively learn the ground game there are a few things to look at:

1) Break fall

This is most basic skill in learning takedown. Tainan Mantis showed me his routine for this which I think is every effective in training the break fall. The next step on the break fall is the ground mobility drills which are to deal with the three ground position.

Guard position - Leg raise
Side control - shrimping
mount - bridging

All these can be included in the break full training as warm ups.

2) Throws and takedown

Quan (fighting form) such as the Dei Tanglang has planty of these. Jia (conditioning form) such as the 18 Lohan Gung can train the mechanics of throws and takedowns really well. All are excellent to enhance these aspect of fighting.

We should also learn takedown from the three ground position as the reversal. Once you are being thrown or taken down, how do you quickly turn the disadvantage around? So we must learn that.

3) Grappling Techniques

Mantis has planty of this offered as stand up grappling. It is important to note that some awkward stand up techniques might very well be sound concepts or principles on the ground. So study them carefully so that you can translate them into ground game. Also gravity goes hand in hand with the ground. If you can make use of the, you will come out on top (pun intended) of your ground game.

4) Escape

This is most obvious for a striking style such as mantis. We don't really wanted to be there in the first place. Most people look to techniques on this one. If you rely on techniques to get you out you are too slow. It helps but an experienced grappler knows that quick reflects and response time is more crucial to the great escape. So drill takedown and get up as often and as quickly as you can.

5) Finishing moves

This was brought up from the above posts. We have to understand that at the ground range there are only so many ways a body can move because of the present of the ground. So in a way there are not so many choices of style specific techniques as finishing hold. Personally I wouldn't worry about "looking" like mantis finishing hold here. But work more so towards approaching the hold through the principles and concepts of Mantis. Hope I make sense here.

I could provide a drill if anyone is interested

6) Avoiding going to the ground with a grappler.

Personally, I don't find this mentality healthy because that means not facing a potential problem. I think a better approach is to understand balance through good stances and foundations even on the ground. Good balance, mobility and breathing should allowed you to survive standing up or on the ground. Do not let fear to persuade you otherwise. Fear stems from the unknown. If you learn it you will take away the unknown; hence, no fear.

7) Climate training

Learn, practice and drill and Learn, practice and drill. Develop drills from the forms and practice them over and over again with live partners. Not just doing the forms. That's will translate into Kung Fu. I think we all are familiar with and understand this well. So I won't be long winded about this.

The above is a brief overview of ground game which I approach from a Mantis perspective. Hope it helps

Mantis108

PS. Thanks Mantis 9. You got my point. :)

[Tainan Mantis]

What is the drill?
Can you post an mpeg?
I think you everything you need need to get one up.

[Stacey]

great thread mantis 108.


Heres a drill.


in 8 step we have at least 4 shooting techniques that I know of within our 40 throws. Them we have the throwing parts so we can invent our own throws spontaneously.

anyways.... do modified sparring. one guy can only strike and keep the other guy away. The other guy can only stick, throw, takedown and wrestle.


Heres another...start by grabbing your partners leg...he has to stop from being throws, you only have to throw him.....have fun, work on counters.



2. many chin na simply lower a person, take them to the point of screaming immobility.


heres another.......start player a in the mount on player b. Do your mantis grabbing and blocking drills and body controls from there. Have them bridge and roll each other after the grab....learn to use strikes to pass the guard...basic ground positioning.

[Mantis9]

This is one key element of ground fighting that would be of paramount importance when either attempting to avoid or engage the situation. Mantis108 mention this facet by his statement "Good balance, mobility and breathing should allowed you to survive standing up or on the ground." I believe weight distribution falls within this catagory and is one of the key factors that ends up putting most fighters who are more comfortable standing in trouble.

This is also why ground positions like the guard, mount, etc. are not only possible, but even preferable positions. I see this as a universal rule to all fighting arts as well as grappling focused arts.

Its the underpinning principle on the ground that allows mobility, awareness and sensitivity to your opponent, and relaxation. Mantis skills, techniques, and concepts work when when good weight distribution is accomplished standing or on the ground. This translates into good balance.

That's my theory. Anything else you guys could add or subtract.

Great thread.

[mantis108]

Hi Guys,

This thread does turn out to be one of the great discussions on the Mantis forum. :D I am glad that we all have something to share.

Tainan,

Here's the drill:

First and foremost, there are 2 ways to start the drill:

1) Do a takedown move. It could be any one from the Mantis arsenal. For simplification, we pick the Deng Ta here.

2) Start from ground position. This is the immediate position after the takedown.

Let's start with #1

B: Right straight pun (as in a jab)

A: Performs a Deng Ta takedown

B: Landed on the ground with the left side on the floor/mat

A: sticking to B and keeping B's right upper limb all the while. A should assume kneeling stance/Yu Huan Bu and stay next to B. This is the starting position for ground control.

things to bear in mind: A should make sure B landed on the left side and B's back is exposed towards A. This give a superior position for A to gain said control. The Yu Huan Bu is excellent in pinning B on the ground. All A has to do is to make sure the rare knee is pinning B around the floating rib. This helps to restrict B's breathing and wears him down. B's right wrist is under control by A's left hand and B's right elbow is straighten and locked (kind of an armbar) by the front thigh of A's Yu Huan Bu. A's left leg (front leg) is placed close to B's neck and shoulder.

Drill 1 - stage one:

from the start position, A uses thumb on pressure point which I showed you before. B response by tap out if the pressure point is pressed correctly by A. What we look for here is speed and accuracy of A's action.

Drill 1 - stage two:

from the start position, A do the same thing. B however will try to roll the whole body over and towards A (parry A's attack with the left hand). If B is successful in getting out of the Yu Huan Bu side control, he should progress immediately to put A into his closed guard. The drill will be ended if A can't not maintain or re-pin B under the Yu Huan Bu side control position. If B is sucessful in putting A in the closed guard, then A will be the one to be taken down and B gets to do the pinning. A gets a second chance if B fails to put him in the closed guard.

There is a 30 seconds time limit.

Drill 2 is similar to Drill 1 except this time is (front) knee to the jaw as control instead of the thumb to pressure point.

Things to pay attention to is the limb control and the rare knee (the pinning knee) have to maintain good control at all times. observing the sticking, paste, etc...(you know the 4 of the 12 characters pinciples.) ;) make sure to leave no space between you and your opponent.

from Drill 2 you can proceed to do other finishing moves like the straight arm bar which I think we have done that before.

Stacey,

Nice post. Thanks for sharing. :)

Mantis 9,

Very good points, I agreed. Thanks.

Regards

Mantis108

PS. forgot to mention knees are one of the 8 shorts of Mantis which as seen in the above drills can be used in those manners. Doing monkey walks can also help to develop the "knee punch" ;)

[PaulLin]

Mantis 108,

The Deng Ta you are talking about will have your opponent fall face down or face up? The follow up moves are different from each case. The one you have said sond like a face down situation since the RuHuanBu you are using after that.

Ba Wang Quain Chu, Pou Boun Xe, Nia Di She, Weai Di She, Chi Ma Die Jou, Weai Liang, Guan Men Be Hu, and Lao Han Ke Gu can also be drilled.

We usually stand on feet rather go down the ground with opponent. When off feet on ground, usually finish fast, within 3 moves, and not really doing any Judo/BJJ stuffs.

Usually on the fall form throwing, you have your knee and/elbow at the positionn to strike the spine. For na, a Huang Yin Bei Che usually availible at the postion(in which rather than keep the arm straight and pressure on elbow, you bend it in the back and pressued both elbow and shoulder, pinned on spine with knee or elbow. You can later stood on feet, use one foot control and free the hands after that).

That is what we do in 8 step form the ground aspects.

There are many other things we do, but they are not in 8 step discipline.

Staycy,

Better not grab the legs of a practioner who has advanced foundation(I don't see many people like that any ways, alot of people don't even know how to stand properly), you can get killed. Not even ShuaiChiao would just go grab the legs without proper setups, not like Western nor BJJ.

Chin Na should do more than just lowering some one. You can chose to break the body part before fall, or pin on the ground with pain.

[Stacey]

Pau Lin

It is my experience that most all of 8 steps blocks for kicking result in a kick catch that yeilds a throw or broken leg.

What do you do when they have your leg? Well, Guin Twei Kan for starters.


This is a way of developing that root and developing countering skills in an increasingly "live" drill.


WIth chin na I was talking about submission fighting chin na. In a sporting environment, its not nice to simply break someone. Many people practice for pain and not neccisarilly immobilization.

[mantis108]

Hi Paul,

"The Deng Ta you are talking about will have your opponent fall face down or face up? The follow up moves are different from each case. The one you have said sond like a face down situation since the RuHuanBu you are using after that. "

Deng Ta would be taking him face up throw from his back side
Deng Pu would be taking him face down throw from his front side.
I sometime call Deng Pu as Deng Ta as well since the motion is similar just the taking the front side or the back side of the of opponent makes different.

Yu Huan Bu (kneeling stance) could be used in both situation as a follow up. I know that different PM has different requirement for the stance. So we will need to adjust slightly while using the stance. But I stress that in essence your stance retain it function as it's originally designed.

"Ba Wang Quain Chu, Pou Boun Xe, Nia Di She, Weai Di She, Chi Ma Die Jou, Weai Liang, Guan Men Be Hu, and Lao Han Ke Gu can also be drilled."

Would you mind sharing them with us?

"We usually stand on feet rather go down the ground with opponent. When off feet on ground, usually finish fast, within 3 moves, and not really doing any Judo/BJJ stuffs. "

I believe that BJJ stuff was meant to be swift ( I could be wrong). Not the showy sport version that we see in the UFC/NHB events. To be fair, we see some of that flashiness in Lei Tai tournaments that we used to have in the pass. For some bizzare reason people behave differently if there is a large audience.

"Usually on the fall form throwing, you have your knee and/elbow at the positionn to strike the spine. For na, a Huang Yin Bei Che usually availible at the postion(in which rather than keep the arm straight and pressure on elbow, you bend it in the back and pressued both elbow and shoulder, pinned on spine with knee or elbow. You can later stood on feet, use one foot control and free the hands after that).

That is what we do in 8 step form the ground aspects."

Thanks great info. really appreciate that. :)

"There are many other things we do, but they are not in 8 step discipline. "

I hear you. Thanks for pointing that out and for the great thread.

Regards

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Deng Pu would have the face down falling meaning in the Pu word, I haven't thought about that. We didn't really disdinquished the Deng Pu and Deng Ta like this. It is nice to know:)

Those moves that you can drill on thowing in 8 step mantis, I will try to get them all when I have the time. I will put them in the order of foundation stance that it related to.

1. ChiMaDeiJou--Ride horse with folded elbow. It enters just like DengTa, but finish with elbow strike and low horse posture. It must be done a little bit closer to opponent than DengTa.

2. NiaDiShe--Inside posture. based on the bow stance. When opponent puched or reach out hand, you used swining up and push forward arm deflect like you would do in HaiDiLaoYuea. That will make your opponenet lift up the front leg. if you pick leg up from out side the elbow, it will be called WeaiDiShe--Outside posture. Sweep the remianing leg and pull the upper hand grab after the deflect opposit to the sweeping direction.

3.PouBounXe--breaking the wings. Based on the sitting tiger stance. You use filing punch to intercept your opponent's arm, filing punch will first lift, and then drop the attack arm, grab the arm on the way down and keep it on the side of hip. At the same time. sent the 2nd filing punch toward either the eyes, throat, or right under the nose. If opponenet didn't block, it will hit rather than throw. If opponenet block the 2nd puch, he will have to cross the arms to block it. By the same way, the 2nd filing puch will lift and grab down the block, at the same time, switch the other grab to press on the elbow of the blocking arm, add the sweep on the 2nd side of punch. You opponent will fall with elbow still in your na position.

write more later.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Stacey
Heres another...start by grabbing your partners leg...he has to stop from being throws, you only have to throw him.....have fun, work on counters.


Here, I don't see your opponent kicked, but I see you start by grabbing your partners leg.



heres another.......start player a in the mount on player b. Do your mantis grabbing and blocking drills and body controls from there. Have them bridge and roll each other after the grab....learn to use strikes to pass the guard...basic ground positioning.

Now that is Western Wrestling, not 8 step at all. You can count that into Shyun style kung fu though, Western Wrestling people will not mind about you taken their skills.

[NPMantis]

Blatantly mantis is the man, there are a large range of anti-grappling techniques and obviously any good mantis school will use their Chin Na with regards to ground work applications also, I would say it is very much down to individual vs individual. My sifu sparred with a JJ guy once and beat him with no problems, I think it rests on how good the indiviaul is at their respective arts.

[yu shan]

Ditto PL and NPM!

[KnightSabre]

NP Mantis,

there is a big difference between JJ and BJJ,
I'm a blue belt in BJJ and I beat a black belt in JJ.

I'm taking anything away from your Sifu though,

I like what someone had to say about Ken Shamrock's words on Pancration being the best,Ken sure did convince Royce Gracie.

[PaulLin]

CMA like 8 step mantis, taichi, bagua, xing-yi, etc. It can be grow futher by themselves without borrowing other style's, it is because they has deep root and philosophy that support the further growth and it is roofless. For examples, the 5 hands in 8 steps involves into 125 combos and each has different relationship with one another, the 8 hard and 12 soft technechs also has the same relation.

I don't know BJJ has any root or deep philosophy that support the growth. In fact, form what I have seen, it doesn't looks good for health.

The first approach I will take for 8 step vs. BJJ is to stay on feet.

The 6th stance in 8 step will buy you enough time to finish off the opponent before the BJJ take down can work.

The 4th stance can be used to off set the take down as press down on one side and pull on the other, so there will be no even grab availible for both arms, therefor, cannot bring the person off feet.

The correct hip position is very important in this aspect, you can't have your hip loose and legs not in proper control.

[Tainan Mantis]

I always wondered what would happen against a bjj man.
A lot of MArtists poo poo that style, but I don't think that is fair.
So I went against a young Gracie named Rolls. His dad of the same name was very famous until he died in a plane crash (I think).

We went for 3 submissions. Two that he did we practice in our PM school. The third we don't since it was a gi choke and we usually wear t-shirts.

He himself was about the most humble man I ever met, but his student, a karate teacher, thought bjj was the only MA worth learning.

So I asked Rolls about his training.
He grew up in his dad's school of 300 students. His earliest childhood memories are on the mat. I suppose if I had been doing PM since I was 3 fighting different people everyday with hundreds to choose from I'd be much better than I am today.

Maybe if I could spar with him all the time I could have a better grasp on how to nullify his clever takedowns so...

Later I worked out in a jj school hoping to get a better idea of the takedown situation. Strangely, sparring with them was a totally different outcome....

[PaulLin]

Difficult to find a good BJJ around. Do you know any? Around here OrangCounty California? I should go check them out.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by KnightSabre


there is a big difference between JJ and BJJ,
I'm a blue belt in BJJ and I beat a black belt in JJ.




Yes the only difference between bjj and jj is that one is better than the other. Its also very fair to sum up an entire style based on one practicioner from one style.

[PaulLin]

I don't think of disrespect to where the style/art came form and proud about it is any good idea. If a later style is not better than the previous one in some way that fits the current time needs, it wouldn't be created any way.

It is like you don't go back and look at your grand fathers and anccestors and think that you have better computer knowledge than they are and feel proud about that.

[KnightSabre]

It's not just from one example.

Take the fight between Royce Gracie 6'1 180 and Remco Pardoel 6'4 260.
Royce Gracie allthough a BJJ blackbelt was never the best in the world at his weight,infact he has never really won any major BJJ tournaments.Remco on the other hand at the time was the open Dutch,open German,open Holland and European JJ champ for consecutive years.

The outcome?
Even outweighed by 80 pounds and with less titles, Royce easily defeatd Remco.
It is also interesting to note that Royce didn't strike Remco once in the match but beat him with pure BJJ.

[Merryprankster]

PaulLin--Orange County is near LA, right? If so, then you are in the US MECCA of BJJ. It's very easy to find good BJJ. I'd avoid the Torrance Gracie academy because of the prices. Plus, I've heard Rorian's business practices are somewhat suspect. This is what I have heard mind you--I'm not speaking from experience.

Do not get hung up on learning from a Black Belt, although in your area, that shouldn't be an issue. The basics are the basics and can be learned from a decent blue belt. Purple belt instructors with their own school are not uncommon.

Next Generation Fight Academy teaches a good deal of No-gi submission grappling, heavily fight oriented, vice sport BJJ. It's run by Chris Brennan, well respected in the fight game, and he is in Irvine California.

Combative Fighting Systems has Ken Gabrielson as their instructor. He is a black belt under Reylson Gracie. They are in Westminster.

Torrance has a Caique school somewhere, I think, and also has Torrance Gracie and Torrance Machado I think.

John De La O teaches in Huntington Beach, I think.

Anyway--you have a TON of options out that way...

Side note: Wrestlers and BJJers don't attack the legs without setting it up...not the good ones anyway :)

[9dragonshijin]

We all know that bjj beats every style hands down. It does not matter whether the practitioner is 25 lbs overweight, is scared of his own shadow, and smokes a pack a day Camel unfiltered...the style is THAT good. :rolleyes:

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
It's not just from one example.

Take the fight between Royce Gracie 6'1 180 and Remco Pardoel 6'4 260.
Royce Gracie allthough a BJJ blackbelt was never the best in the world at his weight,infact he has never really won any major BJJ tournaments.Remco on the other hand at the time was the open Dutch,open German,open Holland and European JJ champ for consecutive years.

The outcome?
Even outweighed by 80 pounds and with less titles, Royce easily defeatd Remco.
It is also interesting to note that Royce didn't strike Remco once in the match but beat him with pure BJJ.

Okay thats amazing. I could wander through parks all across the country beating up elderly people practicing tai chi and it wouldnt prove tai chi to be an ineffective and inferior martial art.

There is unlimited variation in the skill level of a practicioner of any martial art.If your going to call an art inferior you cant do it based on the fact that its stylists suck or even that its teachers suck!

[KnightSabre]

I hate getting into this style versus style debate, but here goes.

Are you saying that if one style predominantly beats another style ity's not the style but the practitioners?
Is it a fluke then that the one style has all the gifted athletes joining it's ranks while the average athletes take up the other?

Whats harder to believe ,that one style is more effective than another or that one style has all the good fighters flocking to learn it and the other style has poor fighters joining?

The school where I train at Street Tough Gym South Africa Http://www.icon.co.za/~jkdrsa has taken part in quite a few NHB tournaments, the schools record is something like 30 wins 5 losses.Our losses come from another BJJ school and we've beaten them 4 or 5 times too.
We've never lost to any traditional school.
Is it because of the styles or is it cause all the gifted athletes have joined our and the other BJJ school and the weaker athletes joined the traditional schools?
I find that hard too believe.

[MightyB]

quote from KnightSabre: "Is it because of the styles or is it cause all the gifted athletes have joined our and the other BJJ school and the weaker athletes joined the traditional schools?"

That happens a lot in other sports, so why not MA? When I was in High School, this went on in the Fall between baseball and track and field. If the Track team was doing good, the majority of talented athletes joined the track team. If the baseball team was doing good, then the talented athletes would go to the baseball team.

Also... 1950's = Judo, 1960's = Karate, 1970's = Kung Fu, 1980's = Ninjitsu, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Filipino styles, 1990's = Kickboxing and BJJ, 2000's = NHB.

BJJ and NHB athletes are just following the herd.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
I hate getting into this style versus style debate, but here goes.


Then you probably shouldnt have stated the difference between jj and bjj is one can beat up the other.


Originally posted by KnightSabre

Are you saying that if one style predominantly beats another style ity's not the style but the practitioners?
Is it a fluke then that the one style has all the gifted athletes joining it's ranks while the average athletes take up the other?

Whats harder to believe ,that one style is more effective than another or that one style has all the good fighters flocking to learn it and the other style has poor fighters joining?

The school where I train at Street Tough Gym South Africa Http://www.icon.co.za/~jkdrsa has taken part in quite a few NHB tournaments, the schools record is something like 30 wins 5 losses.Our losses come from another BJJ school and we've beaten them 4 or 5 times too.
We've never lost to any traditional school.
Is it because of the styles or is it cause all the gifted athletes have joined our and the other BJJ school and the weaker athletes joined the traditional schools?
I find that hard too believe.

First of all JJ is a traditional martial art just like tai chi or karate. Often people from traditional martial arts dont train quite as realistically as say BJJ people. Therefore more often than not they will be less prepared then BJJ people. This has nothing to do with the art and everything to do with bad instruction.

Second of all did you join a BJJ place because you looked at the techniques of various styles and thought to yourself boy that BJJ technique is the only one that could be used effectively in a fight or did you see other people using BJJ techniques effectively? Many people are attracted to BJJ because BJJ has had many great fighters!

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
PaulLin--Orange County is near LA, right? If so, then you are in the US MECCA of BJJ. It's very easy to find good BJJ. I'd avoid the Torrance Gracie academy because of the prices. Plus, I've heard Rorian's business practices are somewhat suspect. This is what I have heard mind you--I'm not speaking from experience.

Do not get hung up on learning from a Black Belt, although in your area, that shouldn't be an issue. The basics are the basics and can be learned from a decent blue belt. Purple belt instructors with their own school are not uncommon.

................

Side note: Wrestlers and BJJers don't attack the legs without setting it up...not the good ones anyway :)

Thanks, Merryprankster. Don't worrie about the price, I am not going to take a BJJ class, just to see if I can find some really good BJJ and maybe had a chance to spar some. Just like you have said, I have not yet seen a good set up, most of them just take chances, either seeing a swing or lift of leg will signal them to leap forward and take down. I would considered that as a poor take down set up against the one who has root-less and tense style of fighting. It sound to me that I should find some one in BJJ who as good as you said, then I will be happy.

[Merryprankster]

Another side note---many BJJer's have lousy takedown skills, but the higher level ones have typically studied that a little bit more.

Your better takedown guys in BJJ typically have had some wrestling experience.

[yu shan]

I wrestled in camps as a young person, then high school, on to College. As a seasoned adult in CMA, I wonder how I would fare against BJJ.

[Merryprankster]

yu shan--

my experience--there are certain things you would do very well, and there would be certain positions in which you would not feel as though you were in danger, but it turns out you are.

I wrestled before I did BJJ, so I'm pretty aware of common "wrestler's mistakes."

[wiz cool c]

I think all mantis artist should learn the basic positions like gaurd and mount and learn to applie there mantis from these positions. also learn to defend against arm locks and chokes.with that your kung fu will be complete.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by wiz cool c
I think all mantis artist should learn the basic positions like gaurd and mount and learn to applie there mantis from these positions. also learn to defend against arm locks and chokes.with that your kung fu will be complete.

One question for you. Chinese Martial Arts has been about 5000 years but never took the long ground fight like tangle up on the ground for serious. The tangle up situation is trained to be aviod. Is all 5000 years of Chinese MA all wrong? Or is there a deeper side that must be trained for decades to see?

[Merryprankster]

PaulLin;

It is a different philosophy, and as such, it is kind of "new."

The Chinese arts may not have gone to the ground, but there was a school of Japanese Jujutsu that did. And many of these groundfighting techniques were incorporated into Judo. A judo teacher and fighter went to Brazil and taught what he knew. But, instead of Judo, he called what he taught Jiujitsu. It was practiced there for many decades and then when it came to the US, and other countries people called it Brazilian Jiujitsu to distinguish it from Japanese Jujutsu.

Groundfighting is very different from standing fighting. I mean that it is different in how you move. Many things that you would think are "right" on the ground are not right at all. It seems right, but then you find out you are in trouble fast.

It is like knowing to fight standing while your opponent does not. You should beat him. If you know how to fight on the ground, and your opponent does not, you should beat him. However, knowing how to fight standing up does NOT mean you know how to fight on the ground because they are not the same. The different way of moving means you must practice moving on the ground. Brazilian jiujitsu is a system for moving and fighting on the ground.

The ground is not always the best place to be, but it is not always the wrong place to be, and even though people try not to be on the ground, sometimes, it happens. Brazilian Jiujitsu teaches you how to win on the ground, and also how to change positions right so you can get up safely.

I would not call 5000 years of Chinese arts wrong. I would call it different. But even though BJJ is not old, that does not mean that it doesn't have an impact. The development of the gun was something new that changed combat forever.

I think the best way for you to understand is to go to a school and take an introductory class or watch some classes to find out. It is like me and Tai Chi: I do not pretend to understand it because I have not experienced it.

I would say to try and arrange some sparring matches, but I do not know anybody out there to help with that, and some teachers might not like it if you came to their school and wanted to punch and kick and throw. They might get upset. But again, I do not know.

Next Generation has people that do many fight competitions and if you wanted to have a harder contact sparring session with people who also know how to groundfight, I would try there. I would also specifically ask to spar somebody who is good on the ground. You might have to wear "fight gloves," but you can use your hands to grab in them, and you can use open hand, tiger claw, etc, just fine in them, as well as punch. I think they are very good.

I hope this helps. If I were out there, I would spar with you. :)

[mantis108]

First off, I would like to thank Paul for the info on his techniques. Very interesting, I would love to see them performed some day.

MP has a point. Actually some very good ponits on the moving and fighting on the ground. Arts do change over time because we perceive things differently all the time; However, I couldn't help but agree with Paul that Mantis as a system of fighting is quite complete as it was. Yet IMHO there are always room for improvement. It is not prudent to discard Mantis as non effective when it come to ground fighting just because it hasn't been showcased as such. Likewise it is not prudent to discard BJJ.

I believe being loyal to your main art is great and an important virtue as a martial artist. At the same time being open minded and explore the strength and weaknesses of other arts and learn from that experience, which in turns strengthen your belief in your main art, is a prudent measure. There are always room for "secret techniques". lol... BTW in case you guys haven't notice, Mantis (the insect) fights horizontally. ;)

Mantis108

PS the question shouldn't be which art complete which art. That's just a matter of preception. It should rather be how one art's principles and concepts compliment the other art's principles and concepts. That way you can have workable grounds.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin

One question for you. Chinese Martial Arts has been about 5000 years but never took the long ground fight like tangle up on the ground for serious. The tangle up situation is trained to be aviod. Is all 5000 years of Chinese MA all wrong? Or is there a deeper side that must be trained for decades to see?

I dont think this post is really in the spirit of praying mantis. As im sure everyone knows praying mantis style is made up of the best techniques from several martial arts and some stuff that was new. I dont think "going to the ground" would be practical on the battlefield on in a gang fight but on the other hand it obviously has a place. some chinese martial arts have groundfighting on higher levels and i dont think groundfighting is against the principles of those that dont.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mei Hwa PM has a traditional ground form called 7th route essentials. It has been said that this is actually the 1st Essentials form created and dates to Liang Hsue Hsiang or older.

A student of Wang Jia, Paul Lin's father's kung fu brother, said that Wei Hsiaotang had this form, but in later years forgot it and so now 8 Step PM has 6 Essentials forms instead of 7. This may be significantly different from the Mei Hwa version, though.

TJPM also has a ground PM form different from the Mei Hwa version.
In their style of Taidzu 64 short strikes exist ground strikes and ground moves. Every technique can be finished on the ground if they don't work standing up. This includes throws, counters and counters to counters.

[PaulLin]

TainanMantis,
There are some ground techniques in 8 step too. But most of them are not in the ZhaiYao. Zhai Yao has about 5 of them. In the list of foundation, there are about 12 of them (need time to check that later). But they are all clean type, not tangle up type.

I am sure your TCMH matis' ground fighting techniques are not the tangle up type. Or are they?

On the 7th-forgotten ground form of what you have heard, I know it like this. It was called Di-Tang, only spread by Shyun. My father heard that long time ago when Shyun told him back in Taiwan. Then my father checked that with GM Wei, he said there is no such form existed. Wang came much later than my father to learn form GM Wei and he is not that close to GM Wei as in talking about all stories. Besides, GM Wei don't like to talking about stories, he want people focus on practicing, he has said that practicing makes true martial arts and talking only making big moth. You have to practicing much harder and longer then you will have a chance to heard little stories form GM Wei.

So if you heard this not form master Wang's own mouth, you can check that with himself.

If yoou heard that form master Wang's own mouth, you can find out if he heard this form GM Wei's own mouth or some one elses mouth.

I am sure GM Wie never did said such thing. There is a short song about 8 step and it mentioned there are 6 ZhaiYaos, not 7.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin
TainanMantis,
I am sure your TCMH matis' ground fighting techniques are not the tangle up type. Or are they?


Whether it is the tangle up type or not has nothing to do with wiz cool c's post stating that all mantis people should learn basic ground positioning and defends to chokes and armbars. It doesnt matter whether or not the ground should be avoided in a fight if someone takes you there and starts to choke you. At that point what matters is if you can defend a choke. Or have i not been in TCMA long enough to see the deeper side that must be trained for decades to see? When people talk about the importance of knowing groundfighting as it relates to TCMA they do not mean the importance of fighting like a BJJ fighter or wrestler. They mean the importance of being able to defend against one.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


Whether it is the tangle up type or not has nothing to do with wiz cool c's post stating that all mantis people should learn basic ground positioning and defends to chokes and armbars. It doesnt matter whether or not the ground should be avoided in a fight if someone takes you there and starts to choke you. At that point what matters is if you can defend a choke. Or have i not been in TCMA long enough to see the deeper side that must be trained for decades to see? When people talk about the importance of knowing groundfighting as it relates to TCMA they do not mean the importance of fighting like a BJJ fighter or wrestler. They mean the importance of being able to defend against one.

TCMA usually choke stood up. And we trained to stood up. There is a view about if being a human, one must have the head support the heaven and feets rooted on the earth. There are some TCMA doest specialized in ground fight, especially after the Ming Dynasty in the south coast regions. But they are not the main stream in TCMA. The main stream of TCMA still insisted mainly fight on foot and resisting falling on the back. I am not saying that TCMA disgrace ground fight at all, it is just that they would perfer focusing to stay on foot.

I would think it will be very helpful to know BJJ skills, as an 8 step mantis practicioner, but not to practicing BJJ. Instead, I will find the anwer of how to counter BJJ in TCMA style.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin


TCMA usually choke stood up. .

Thats not really what i was saying at all. What i was saying was that its important for TCMA people do be able to use TCMA to counter BJJer/ wrestler choking them while they are on the ground because it is quiet possible for them to end up on the ground when they are fighting someone who only knows how to fight on the ground.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


Thats not really what i was saying at all. What i was saying was that its important for TCMA people do be able to use TCMA to counter BJJer/ wrestler choking them while they are on the ground because it is quiet possible for them to end up on the ground when they are fighting someone who only knows how to fight on the ground.

Gotcha. I think that if one cann't really stay on foot in TCMA, they should go practicing more until they can rather than thinking about fighting. But before they can achieve that level, up on the personal situation needs, it may be a good idea to have some BJJ practicing just in case.

[SevenStar]

Also, remember that there are several BJJers that crosstrain in Judo - that means they have ALOT more throws and excellent balance. they also have several more pinning positions, in adition to the pins and submissions that they already know.

[Brad Souders]

Info: Rolls Gracie Sr. (possibly one of the best grapplers ever) died in a hangglider accident not a plane crash. Close but no cigar :)

[Life long Student]

Hi all: this is a great thread.
I learned some grappling and ground fighting from Tom Kier, he is now a Tuhon with sayoc. I also learned From Wu chang yi from Taiwan in the 80's. In the 90's I. Went to work as a bouncer and some part time body guard work. In my short years doing this work I learned why Wu said to not go down if at all posable. In the real world while in an altercation no matter how good you are you can't control the terrain. Several altercation in the beginning wound up on a bar floor, I was just lucky, but the person I was dealing with wound up with glass in his body and a trip to an ER. In another I applied a choke it was working fine but my back was slammed into a bar when another person fighting with another bouncer slammed into my guy. I think after 5000 years of history the Chinese learned a few common sense things that took me a little pain to learn. By the way it also explained why Wu said never play fight If you aren't fighting to turn off your opponent you can get hurt trying to be nice.

Food for thought
please excuse my poor ability to translate

[B.Tunks]

SPORT VS REAL

Studying modern ground fighting methods depends on what you want from your martial arts. If you want to 'spar' for sporting reasons and will fight BJJ people with the restrictions of their sport fighting, using straight TLQ, you are at a definite disadvantage. I for one would avoid fighting any of these top level BJJ guys with such restrictions (not without a small hidden knife, ha ha). I dont think you need the 'top mount' etc in your repertoire unless you are planning on engaging in such bouts. If you want TLQ for live combat or self defence you dont need to worry about scrambling around on the floor for 30 minutes trying to escape from, or force a submission.

Life Long wrote:

I also learned From Wu chang yi from Taiwan in the 80's. In the 90's I. Went to work as a bouncer and some part time body guard work. In my short years doing this work I learned why Wu said to not go down if at all posable. In the real world while in an altercation no matter how good you are you can't control the terrain. Several altercation in the beginning wound up on a bar floor, I was just lucky, but the person I was dealing with wound up with glass in his body and a trip to an ER. In another I applied a choke it was working fine but my back was slammed into a bar when another person fighting with another bouncer slammed into my guy. I think after 5000 years of history the Chinese learned a few common sense things that took me a little pain to learn. By the way it also explained why Wu said never play fight If you aren't fighting to turn off your opponent you can get hurt trying to be nice.

I cant agree more with all of this. This is the reality of actual fighting. If you go to ground in any public place you are lucky if you escape with your skull in tact in most cases (I know, I have had the joy of a fractured skull, twice)

You dont want to go to ground unless totally unavoidable and with TLQ the idea is to get up out and of this situation as fast as possible. If someone tries to roll all over me on the ground or pin me with their body in an actual fight, I will bite off anything I can fit in my mouth and then stick my fingers as far in the hole as they can go. Apart from that I will gouge out their eyes or snap their fingers back one by one. These valid methods are all found within our style and are not just animal tactics.

Submission fighting outside of the ring is only found in the school playground these days.
In sport fighting, the greater athlete will always win, not so in real fighting.
B.T

[wiz cool c]

In my opinion judo is the perfect compliment to chinese kung fu. I now consider myself a chen stylist who also studies judo. Judo concentrates on stand up throws. You will gain great balance and know how to fall if you do get thrown and it has enough ground fighting to help ypu if you do go down. In the Chen village tournament in china 1998 tape you can see the best tai chi people go down during moving push hands. There is one match where the guy landed on his downed opponent in the mount position. These are guys who are masters of rooting. So it does happen.

[Life long Student]

Just a question in regard to culture. Aside from the practical, during actual or realistic confrontations. Is it a culture matter? For example, In Malaysia siting or being on the ground is very common and the same with Japan, and I know for the Arabic the bottoms of feet are unclean, and to show them are an insult. Could this also just be a part of there culture that the ground is somehow unclean? Or is it improper to be on? I hope I am not being presumptuous, or rude it is just a thought.

[PaulLin]

As in the internal CMA, for the reason of sinking and rooting at Dan Tien and the hollow clearness of the top torsol to match the heaven space above and earth under, we do like to activate our body vertically, as direct link to the space and earth, if it is possible. It deals with long term qi effects.

External arts some time don't take that as a primary concern, as long as you can get the job done on your movement, every thing can go.

That is my reason for standing up application. If you count culture as a survival method followed by a group of people, I guess you can count that in. But if you see culture as a custom behaivior that may not be practical in some cases, then it is not.

[PaulLin]

For wis cool c, I would like to recommend Shuai Chaio. You may find it interesting after you compare a few good Shuai Chiao artists to Jodo.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Although I stopped playing the mantis awhile back: some thoughts that my plum flower mantis teacher taught me comes to mind. Any type of throw was designed to go directly into the ground not something that you could roll out of, of course in practice with a training partner the angle is changed to allow them to recover (roll out).

i think the use of weapons in the old days tended to discourage the idea of laying on the ground to fight, probably to big an area to keep from getting chopped up.

Most cma that I have come in contact with uses the ground as a weapon, something to derive power from or slam something into.

[wiz cool c]

In judo you almost never roll out of a throw you do a break fall by slapping the mat landing on you side tucking your chin things like that. These work on a wood floor as well. In my kung fu school we do moving push hands chen style with sweep and all. I have taken a few falls using judo falls on the would floor with no problem.

[Life long Student]

Wood is great concrete is OK if smooth, steps suck, parking lots hurt a lot especially when you get small rocks imbedded your knee, or palms. Falling on chairs are the worst. But you usually don't realize the extent of your injures until after, or until someone says "hay you are bleeding" On the other hand these are all great when aiming you opponent into them. :)

[Merryprankster]

You dont want to go to ground unless totally unavoidable and with TLQ the idea is to get up out and of this situation as fast as possible.

Agreed! Your chances of doing this are FAR better when you actually know how to move around down there.


If someone tries to roll all over me on the ground or pin me with their body in an actual fight, I will bite off anything I can fit in my mouth and then stick my fingers as far in the hole as they can go. Apart from that I will gouge out their eyes or snap their fingers back one by one.

Please tell me you don't think this is the "answer?" There's really no substitute for learning to escape and get up properly.


These valid methods are all found within our style and are not just animal tactics.

Not exactly rocket science, is it? I mean let say a wrestler puts you on the ground. Can't he eye-gouge you too? Or snap your fingers? Or just knee your face into hamburger?

[Life long Student]

True having an idea and some first hand knowledge is smart. Even if you get injured you will still be alive. Just leave it up to a last ditch effort.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Agreed! Your chances of doing this are FAR better when you actually know how to move around down there.



Please tell me you don't think this is the "answer?" There's really no substitute for learning to escape and get up properly.



Not exactly rocket science, is it? I mean let say a wrestler puts you on the ground. Can't he eye-gouge you too? Or snap your fingers? Or just knee your face into hamburger?

I don't agree with the biting and poking as primary idea of ground situation. In CMA throwing, an ideal grib position must be present for a throw and take down. I would take the primary concern as to how not to let your opponent get such position in the first place. Secondly, I would perfer to chose moves with join and body weight control. If you try to use your own strenght to support your self while your opponent is free to make moves on you, you will be done for in no time. It is better to have your opponent carry your body weight and you control his join.

The eye poking will be consider in the same group as pressure point technique. That is what I think I will do.

[B.Tunks]

Hi all,

Paul Lin wrote:
I don't agree with the biting and poking as primary idea of ground situation.

I also dont agree that it should be the 'primary idea'. But when and if you are out wrestled on the ground these are certainly useful.

Merry Prankster wrote:
Please tell me you don't think this is the "answer?" There's really no substitute for learning to escape and get up properly.

What is 'properly'? I agree that these are not the only, or 'primary' methods but are certainly valid.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These valid methods are all found within our style and are not just animal tactics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not exactly rocket science, is it?

No, not at all. It's fighting.

>I mean let say a wrestler puts you on the ground.

yes.

>Can't he eye-gouge you too?

yes.

>Or snap your fingers?

yes.

>Or just knee your face into hamburger?

Unlikely (where are your hands while he has the leverage to 'knee your face into a hamburger' whilst in a position of disadvantage in a ground fighting situation?), but still possible.
Whats the point here?
Yes, anyone can do these things in a fight but an inexperienced idiot will get himself even more hurt trying to do so. My point was; if you cannot fight as well on the ground and end up being dominated by a superior ground fighter, there are many ways to defeat their tactics including finger popping and biting amongst other things (such as attacking the groin, armpits, ears or mouth). Of course one would try to have smashed the opponents head in well before this stage (of course using such 'gentlemanly' and refined techniques as Pi Chui, Pan Zhou etc), whilst in the more comfortable upright position.
If you are pinned in a real fight by a tactically better or stronger ground fighter, and have exhausted your options then I dont suggest you hold back on such unrefined attacks, as you have definitely failed in your task and are most likely in big trouble (unless its one of those school yard fights that I mentioned or the opponent is a big hearted softie who was only trying to teach you a lesson(good luck with that one, ha ha)). And if it wasnt life threatening in the first place, then why the hell were you fighting???

I merely wanted to point out that there is a very big difference between controlled and real fighting (real meaning; life threatening) and that the whole BJJ thing can be looked at in a totally different light. You are welcome to disagree.

My personal gripe with going to ground is that it ruins my clothing and scratches up my shoes.

[Merryprankster]

Unlikely (where are your hands while he has the leverage to 'knee your face into a hamburger' whilst in a position of disadvantage in a ground fighting situation?), but still possible.

Not at all unlikely, unfortunately. Front Headlocks (not to be confused with the 'help I don't know what I'm doing desperation head grab'), the north-south pin position and regular wrestling/judo/BJJ style side pins all offer excellent opportunities to turn somebody's face into a bloody mess with your knees while keeping the arms cleared.


What is 'properly'? I agree that these are not the only, or 'primary' methods but are certainly valid.

Learning to get up properly is learning to escape inferior positions to get back to your feet while minimizing damage.


If you are pinned in a real fight by a tactically better or stronger ground fighter, and have exhausted your options then I dont suggest you hold back on such unrefined attacks, as you have definitely failed in your task and are most likely in big trouble (unless its one of those school yard fights that I mentioned or the opponent is a big hearted softie who was only trying to teach you a lesson(good luck with that one, ha ha)). And if it wasnt life threatening in the first place, then why the hell were you fighting???

Fair enough.


I merely wanted to point out that there is a very big difference between controlled and real fighting (real meaning; life threatening) and that the whole BJJ thing can be looked at in a totally different light.

Agreed. But with the caveat that ANY art must then be looked at in a different light. Why? Because the truth is that we all practice under a set of rules. While there are certainly rules in sportive arts, there are rules in the training hall as well. Both sets are designed to allow maximum efficacy and technique use, while minimizing risk of injury as much as possible under the inherently violent circumstances. Different rule sets offer different advantages or disadvantages--but are training restrictions nonetheless.

My point is more that while such tactics are without a doubt valid in the context of self-defense, they certainly shouldn't be relied on. After all, you have to learn to fight standing before these sorts of things are useful standing. Otherwise, you can't do them very well because you're lacking a solid base to work from. Same thing with the groundwork. The "dirty" tactics are far more effective if you actually have a base to work from.

That said, there's nothing wrong with using them--they just aren't "the answer," in much the same way as kneeing somebody in the groin or punching them in the throat isn't "the answer" while on your feet.

There is a fundamental difference between moving on the ground and fighting on your feet. Learning a bit about it would vastly improve the chances of effectively using these tactics.

[B.Tunks]

Agreed on all points except:

That said, there's nothing wrong with using them--they just aren't "the answer," in much the same way as kneeing somebody in the groin or punching them in the throat isn't "the answer" while on your feet.


In accordance with everything I have learnt in Mantis Boxing they are the answer while fighting on your feet (majority of Tanglang techniques directly attack the throat or groin). Why punch the face or kick the leg when you can punch the throat or kick the groin?

Granted, never during sparring.

I understand we are talking about two different fighting conditions and of course I would never bite someone or attack the groin during sparring. However, if overpowered on the ground in a real fight and left with no other option, I certainly will.

interesting topic!

[PaulLin]

One interesting point that metioned is the rules that make MA like a sport. I know that in CMA training, for the training purpose, not real situation applying purpose, there are rules that issolate some selected factors out, so the practian can focus on the parts that was designed to train on. However, many trainers forgot to put the issolation back out when considering it is a complete applying system rather than training system. For example, Tai Chi pushing hands has issolate many factors for focus on listening, sticking, fa jing, rooting, etc. However, in a real fighting situation, you don't stand there and having a fixed Pung position and wait to attach your opponent at the wrist. You have to know how to handle real stikes and then can use stick, and so on.

In mantis, we have fixed 2 man forms, but they are not the final application. The final application have no rules nor fixed moves, of course. So many people are mistaking about how good they are with the system by learning the "ruled application." Until they really meet a real "nonrule" situation, then they will know how much the system they really have.

Many throws has the position to break head, arm, neck, ribs, or grin right at the position of landing, no waiting for positioning needed. Many throws are also including breaking strikes before or during the throw. A well carried out throw do not let your opponent land saftly or comfortablly. For all that reasons, if you are capable to use bite or poking after being thrown, only if your opponent can't or didn't want to finish you off as it should. "Not a primary" choice I metioned is that I don't wish to have a situation of fighting a low skilled person who don't know how to finish up properly and still being thown by this person, or bitting a person who don't intend to finish me off, just want to show me a move.

[Merryprankster]

In accordance with everything I have learnt in Mantis Boxing they are the answer while fighting on your feet (majority of Tanglang techniques directly attack the throat or groin). Why punch the face or kick the leg when you can punch the throat or kick the groin?

While I don't doubt this, my point here is that you aren't just told "Strike the throat! Attack the groin!" You're taught how to properly fight, but have those targets in mind.

If the "throat and groin" were "the answer" then nobody would actually have to learn how to fight. They aren't magic bullets and have to be matched with an appropriate delivery system. Nuclear warheads are very potent--provided you can get them to the target!


In mantis, we have fixed 2 man forms, but they are not the final application. The final application have no rules nor fixed moves, of course. So many people are mistaking about how good they are with the system by learning the "ruled application." Until they really meet a real "nonrule" situation, then they will know how much the system they really have.

Yeah. I would include lightly thrown techniques that are "recognized" as fight-stoppers by the sparring partner in the mix and certain "sport" moves that have low applicability in a fight or potential for danger.

What this all boils down to is your awareness as a fighter at that point.


Many throws has the position to break head, arm, neck, ribs, or grin right at the position of landing, no waiting for positioning needed. Many throws are also including breaking strikes before or during the throw. A well carried out throw do not let your opponent land saftly or comfortablly. For all that reasons, if you are capable to use bite or poking after being thrown, only if your opponent can't or didn't want to finish you off as it should.

I think we need to get away from the idea of "should," and think more about the idea of "could." A throw CAN land so that you break or get knocked out. That said, I've landed on my head an neck more than once and been ok. I also know people with permanent injuries from the same stuff, so I'm not knocking its effectiveness. I'm suggesting that "should" is a bit misleading. Throws CAN incapacitate but we should be ready to follow-up in the most appropriate manner (situationally dependant).

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


I think we need to get away from the idea of "should," and think more about the idea of "could." A throw CAN land so that you break or get knocked out. That said, I've landed on my head an neck more than once and been ok. I also know people with permanent injuries from the same stuff, so I'm not knocking its effectiveness. I'm suggesting that "should" is a bit misleading. Throws CAN incapacitate but we should be ready to follow-up in the most appropriate manner (situationally dependant).

Agree, and please excuse my English. In this case, I should use "could" instead of "should" to express what I was thinking.

To have a back up plan B is always good idea, I would never against it. In fact, you should have more than one follow-up moves in your bag. However, too much relying on follow-up COULD wash off the quality of the foundamental first move. It is a balance the artist must choose wisely to train with.

[MightyB]

New town, new job... I get a free YMCA membership at the place I work, so I decided to start doing Judo to help my throwing in San Shou competitions...

I know Judo's not BJJ, but BJJ is a derivative of Judo.

I honestly can't answer the question, which style is better, or which is more effective, yada yada yada. They are just so different from one another, yet 7 star and Judo complement each other very very very well. The Judo grip maximizes strength in the pinky, ring, and middle fingers just like PM, so grip work has been easy... without getting too boring, all I can say is that it really is apples and oranges. I'd have to say that PM seems a lot more deadly/brutal, but, Judo is d@mn cool too.

My first love will always be 7* but I've been having a lot of fun studying Judo.

I will say this though, the mindset of the Judo people is different than the 7* people that I know. To get a black belt in the USJA, you have to either spend about 8 yrs in Judo, or gain points by winning competitions. Because of the competitive aspect, the Judo guys are less recreational and more focused in training. There's a lot of sweat and blood in a Judo dojo.

[seijinkumo]

Salaam alaikum, hello everyone,

It would be rediculous for one to think that Praying Mantis style can be used to defend oneself against brazillian jui jitsu. Brazillian jui jitsu is one of the most challenging warfare of taking the opponent to the ground and performing joint locks that can easily put someone into submission or completely break their bones. Now the way to defend against something like this is avoid getting on the ground! That means you must take them out before they get you off balance for once you on the ground you better be good if you want to tangle with a BBJ fighter. Ofcourse though while on the ground biting could be affective against anyone. But the point is the only good defense ON THE GROUND against BBJ is BBJ. But if i were to go up against a bbj fighter i would most surely try to take the person out before it is brought to the ground.

Juan Ali

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by seijinkumo
Salaam alaikum, hello everyone,

It would be rediculous for one to think that Praying Mantis style can be used to defend oneself against brazillian jui jitsu. Brazillian jui jitsu is one of the most challenging warfare of taking the opponent to the ground and performing joint locks that can easily put someone into submission or completely break their bones. Now the way to defend against something like this is avoid getting on the ground! That means you must take them out before they get you off balance for once you on the ground you better be good if you want to tangle with a BBJ fighter. Ofcourse though while on the ground biting could be affective against anyone. But the point is the only good defense ON THE GROUND against BBJ is BBJ. But if i were to go up against a bbj fighter i would most surely try to take the person out before it is brought to the ground.

Juan Ali

BJJ is a perfect skill when there is only one opponent, the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters.

If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened.

[B.Tunks]

Paul Lin wrote:

BJJ is a perfect skill when there is only one opponent, the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters.

If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened.

-I could not agree more and could not have said it any better.

[Merryprankster]

BJJ is a perfect skill when there is only one opponent, the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters.

Sigh.


If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened.

Double Sigh.


-I could not agree more and could not have said it any better.

Triple Sigh.

Amazing. People really talk out of both sides of their mouths around here.

[B.Tunks]

Paul brought up some interesting additional points that I had not, and that I agreed with.
Say what you want about fighting tactics but dont talk about my mouth or how I use it. You dont know me personally so it's quite a rude assumption and I haven't once been rude to you during this 'discussion'.
I'm glad you love BJJ so much. I am however, free to dislike it equally (seeing this is a Mantis Boxing forum it is a likely possibility).
It is obvious that in your mind BJJ is supreme. How do we argue with that?
As a matter of interest, what kind of Tanglang do you study and why do you bother? (as it seems to be so redundant).

[Merryprankster]

Ahem.

People give an art its due then turn around and speak of it dismissively.

I call that talking out of both sides of your mouth. You may call it whatever you like. My intent wasn't to be rude, just to remark on what I consider a logical inconsistency. At any rate, I DO owe an explanation so....

BJJ is a great art for when there is a 300 lbs idiot on top of you, who tackled you from behind in a bar because he felt like it, and now you're on the ground with this big lug who is pinning you down trying to mess up your nose or beat on your skull and his mates are coming at you from across the bar to give you a good bootstomping--not just one on one.

Now, I realize that many arts have ways of getting up, but in BJJ, you spend a tremendous amount of time becoming comfortable with the ground and learning to get up without getting stomped in. It's not easy to move with a 300 lbs man on top of you and there is no guarentee that you will be in a position to counter it well. You may just **** him off with what you try. A solid groundfighting base--be it BJJ, Judo, Sambo, or wrestling, gives you a very big leg up when trying to escape from somebody who doesn't want you to. Knowing how to move down there complements anything else you do because you can put yourself in a better position to do it. It's an issue of focus, not superiority.

Secondly, sometimes it's not about "the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters." This is a fallacious argument. The idea that BJJ only works on somebody who is somehow lacking in their training is wrong. The issue is one of how much better is the BJJer at opening the doors than you are at closing them (or vice versa?). Combat is a relationship--it's not a positive one, but it is entirely relative. It doesn't matter how GOOD you are--it only matters that you are better than your opponent.

Thirdly, 'If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened." This again, is fallacious. It's an issue of relativity. If I'm controlling your movement, how do you hit that pressure point? It's really not as easy as it seems. Could it be done--absolutely--but it's MUCH HARDER if you don't know how to move down there and the other guy does. A decent BJJer has you off-balance as much as possible and is constantly attacking your wrists, arms, hands and neck. It's really hard to aim that way--and if you aren't familiar with moving on the ground and what to watch out for it's hard NOT to be offbalance and constantly on the defensive.

Finally, you agreed with a statement that Paul Lin made on perceived limitations of BJJ that I disagree with. I "sigh" because it's a tired argument to me--this is not your fault, it's just same-old, same-old. "BJJ only works one-on-one! BJJ puts you in a dangerous position! BJJ etc..." It's just as bad as the "BJJ beats everything everywhere everytime" comments. The truth is that BJJ teaches you how to move on the ground and drastically increases your chances of attaining a favorable, or escape position, in a fight. The bottom line is that the only thing that is probably worse in a fight than winding up on your back with a 300 lbs guy on top is having to stay there.

BJJ/Judo/Sambo/Wrestling all help you learn how NOT to stay there, rather well.

I know that we'd all prefer to train to stay on our feet. This is the smartest course of action, absolutely, in 99% of the situations you encounter. But in a world of what-if's, it's not a bad idea to have some significant, organized, systematic groundfighting experience under your belt.

I don't practice Tanglang. I'm a BJJ/Judo/Wrestler with some minor boxing experience. I'm also not disparaging Tanglang. At least, I'm pretty sure I didn't anywhere. At the end of the day if you want to figure out how to use your stuff on the ground, you have to go find somebody who really knows groundwork to train your stuff on/with. You can't train it occasionally with somebody who doesn't really know how to do it. It's got to be regular and frequent--THEN you can make your praying mantis (or whatever) work down there.

[B.Tunks]

Bottom line is I agreed with what he said, doesn't matter how wrong I am and whether or not I agreed with you earlier (I thought you had some good points). At that time I didnt want to speak on the things Paul later brought up (gates, pressure points etc) but when he wrote them I agreed with them and wanted to let him know. He is a respected Tanglang practitioner and I can understand his perspective on the matter from a 'Tanglang' POV.

I'm no two-faced, talking out of both sides of my mouth idiot.
I didnt want to get into an argument with you about BJJ vs Tanglang as you are obviously very confident in your art (which is good and will ensure you fight well using your chosen system).
I didn't want to talk around in endless circles with the 'my style is better than your style' thing. I am as tired of one sided bull**** as you are and am far more interested in hearing other peoples well informed thoughts (including yours), than wasting my time typing **** like this.

I dont know why you chose to paint me as some little clown especially after I treated your opinions with respect (being that they are obviously the product of a lot of fighting experience).

For the record, I practiced judo for 6 years and freestyle and olympic wrestling for 2 years, along with a lot of chinese wrestling and some jiu jitsu and have also spent hours rolling around the ground with marchado and gracie jiujitsu practitioners who have trained extensively in Brazil. I am not a starry eyed brainwashed kungfu addict who has no idea about the 'real world' of ground fighting.

Personally I prefer not to go to ground and I believe there are other methods that work for me.

[Merryprankster]

Umm...no problem.

I really wasn't trying to start a fight.


I dont know why you chose to paint me as some little clown especially after I treated your opinions with respect (being that they are obviously the product of a lot of fighting experience).

I didn't or it wasn't my intention. Sorry you took offense. I already apologized (or attempted to do so, apparently poorly) for projecting past experiences and my exasperation with them w/regards to 'pros and cons' of the systems onto your comments. I'm not really sure what else I can do. We could fight for it! :D

I would hesitate to call my opinions the product of a lot of fighting experience. One MMA fight and a few hundred grappling matches of various sorts probably don't really count as fighting.


For the record, I practiced judo for 6 years and freestyle and olympic wrestling for 2 years, along with a lot of chinese wrestling and some jiu jitsu and have also spent hours rolling around the ground with marchado and gracie jiujitsu practitioners who have trained extensively in Brazil.

Precisely my point--you have a MUCH better chance of getting your PM to work on the ground than somebody who doesn't do these things--and of getting up....


I am not a starry eyed brainwashed kungfu addict who has no idea about the 'real world' of ground fighting.

Clearly not.


Personally I prefer not to go to ground and I believe there are other methods that work for me.

Perfectly reasonable.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Now, I realize that many arts have ways of getting up, but in BJJ, you spend a tremendous amount of time becoming comfortable with the ground and learning to get up without getting stomped in. It's not easy to move with a 300 lbs man on top of you and there is no guarentee that you will be in a position to counter it well. You may just **** him off with what you try. A solid groundfighting base--be it BJJ, Judo, Sambo, or wrestling, gives you a very big leg up when trying to escape from somebody who doesn't want you to. Knowing how to move down there complements anything else you do because you can put yourself in a better position to do it. It's an issue of focus, not superiority.

Secondly, sometimes it's not about "the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters." This is a fallacious argument. The idea that BJJ only works on somebody who is somehow lacking in their training is wrong. The issue is one of how much better is the BJJer at opening the doors than you are at closing them (or vice versa?). Combat is a relationship--it's not a positive one, but it is entirely relative. It doesn't matter how GOOD you are--it only matters that you are better than your opponent.

Thirdly, 'If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened." This again, is fallacious. It's an issue of relativity. If I'm controlling your movement, how do you hit that pressure point? It's really not as easy as it seems. Could it be done--absolutely--but it's MUCH HARDER if you don't know how to move down there and the other guy does. A decent BJJer has you off-balance as much as possible and is constantly attacking your wrists, arms, hands and neck. It's really hard to aim that way--and if you aren't familiar with moving on the ground and what to watch out for it's hard NOT to be offbalance and constantly on the defensive.

Finally, you agreed with a statement that Paul Lin made on perceived limitations of BJJ that I disagree with. I "sigh" because it's a tired argument to me--this is not your fault, it's just same-old, same-old. "BJJ only works one-on-one! BJJ puts you in a dangerous position! BJJ etc..." It's just as bad as the "BJJ beats everything everywhere everytime" comments. The truth is that BJJ teaches you how to move on the ground and drastically increases your chances of attaining a favorable, or escape position, in a fight. The bottom line is that the only thing that is probably worse in a fight than winding up on your back with a 300 lbs guy on top is having to stay there.

BJJ/Judo/Sambo/Wrestling all help you learn how NOT to stay there, rather well.

I know that we'd all prefer to train to stay on our feet. This is the smartest course of action, absolutely, in 99% of the situations you encounter. But in a world of what-if's, it's not a bad idea to have some significant, organized, systematic groundfighting experience under your belt.

I don't practice Tanglang. I'm a BJJ/Judo/Wrestler with some minor boxing experience. I'm also not disparaging Tanglang. At least, I'm pretty sure I didn't anywhere. At the end of the day if you want to figure out how to use your stuff on the ground, you have to go find somebody who really knows groundwork to train your stuff on/with. You can't train it occasionally with somebody who doesn't really know how to do it. It's got to be regular and frequent--THEN you can make your praying mantis (or whatever) work down there.

To say some one else's statement is a fallacious argument is a very serious accuse. You are taking the person's integrity into the account. It is as serious as putting up a chellenge to dule.

You are perdictablly not to understand how to train in drill to make the rooting, door guarding, throwing, joing locking, and pressure point attacking. All you have known is get on the ground and work you move and learn form your experiences. In fact, you shouldn't separate my points, they are all related and supporting one and another in order to make them work. The point you should come out of it is that if you can't firm your root and guard your doors, don't espect to work well in throwing, joing locking, and pressure point attacks. Go back to drill and train more. Until you are at "master" level, then you can make it work.

And please do read carefully, I have never said BJJ "ONLY" works on the ground with one opponent. I said it is "perfect" work that way. And I am not saying BJJ only works on people who knows nothing, it says when the situation that when the opponent is unalbe to complish some functions, then BJJ would work.

In no way I have said about any superiorty of any style. Even the best player with the best skill could have a bad hair day. It depends on many factors.

I you have a question, just ask, don't make a statement to defame other people's integrity. If you try to take me down off my feet, then I can show you what parts of training that BJJ has never included. It is better than making a loose cannon statement and twist the meaning of other people's words.

[Merryprankster]

Agh!

*Insert Panic Here*

Paul Lin,

I keep forgetting that english is not your first language! I probably overreacted anyway, especially in light of that fact.

That said, "fallacious" doesn't mean that I am calling your integrity into doubt. It means that the argument either reaches a conclusion improperly, or that the assumptions at the root of the argument are incorrect. In no way does it defame your character.

While I may not believe your argument or reasons are right, that is simply a disagreement between two opinions. I am not calling you a liar or a bad person. In fact, you have always been exceptionally gracious.


In fact, you shouldn't separate my points, they are all related and supporting one and another in order to make them work. The point you should come out of it is that if you can't firm your root and guard your doors, don't espect to work well in throwing, joing locking, and pressure point attacks. Go back to drill and train more. Until you are at "master" level, then you can make it work.

Agreed--regardless of your chosen style!


I said it is "perfect" work that way.

I agree with this as well--BJJ is primarily concerned with one attacker.


And I am not saying BJJ only works on people who knows nothing, it says when the situation that when the opponent is unalbe to complish some functions, then BJJ would work.

Ah--this I disagree with--sometimes, even if you are very good at something, the other person is as good or better at overcoming that. In this case, it's less that YOU did something wrong--the other person did what they do better.


If you try to take me down off my feet, then I can show you what parts of training that BJJ has never included.

That SPORT BJJ has never included. Many focus on self-defense and work on stuff like this. Roy Harris, for instance, has a whole strategy for dealing with biters and pressure point attacks. The Dog Brothers work with weapons, etc.

I suffer no personal illusion. I'm a sport guy. I'm not terribly interested in self-defense.


It is better than making a loose cannon statement and twist the meaning of other people's words.

I DID over-react--especially in light of the language barrier. However, I emphasize again that I was not attempting to call your honesty into question. I disagree with parts of your argument--but do not believe you are a bad person or dishonest!

[B.Tunks]

I understand you. It is a bit hard to communicate via these forums without misunderstandings at times.
B.T

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Agh!

*Insert Panic Here*

Paul Lin,

I keep forgetting that english is not your first language! I probably overreacted anyway, especially in light of that fact.

That said, "fallacious" doesn't mean that I am calling your integrity into doubt. It means that the argument either reaches a conclusion improperly, or that the assumptions at the root of the argument are incorrect. In no way does it defame your character.

While I may not believe your argument or reasons are right, that is simply a disagreement between two opinions. I am not calling you a liar or a bad person. In fact, you have always been exceptionally gracious.



Ah--this I disagree with--sometimes, even if you are very good at something, the other person is as good or better at overcoming that. In this case, it's less that YOU did something wrong--the other person did what they do better.



First, sorry if my English make you misunderstand what I am saying in the first place. I should add that "if there is any thing that didn't sound correct, it could be my language barrier and may not be what you think it is" at the end of all my statements.

"Fallacious" is a word I hated very much. I have one record that I am keeping due to my hatred towards it--I have never lied in my life. I may make mistake statements but I alway speak of the truth of what I know, never said anything that I know is not true. According to the current book I am reading on the art of war (it is called "Plain Book", used by Zhang Liang in the Han dynasty, not many people know this book), this hatred of mine can very well be my weakness and used by others against me. So I am working very hard not to react so much to it, just keep it inside myself.

About the point that you have disagreed with me, I think I own you a further explanation. The way we have experienced in our art, when you are at higher level, you will find more difficult to be the attacker. By a solid training of rooting, body solidifying, door guarding, you will left a very few choice to attack. Especially you can't reatch out far, as further you reatched out, more leaking in the doors. One must traing to have powerful legs and balance to shoot out with whole body to strike longer distance. If you can't hold your own balance and be ready to follow up with next move at the end of the previous move, you will have go back to foundation drills training. The strikes are much more powerful and controlled with whole body rather than reatched out limps. And it left no open doors. It is not what I have seen with the fighter out there who tilt body to the side and have door opened regularly almost every strikes. I have not seen any techniques shown (include BJJ) that has a chance of breaking inside the doors unless you can't keep them closed properly. If you can be tricked to open your door or over powered, then I don't really called that is a person with a good door guarding skill, it is not good enough and should go back and train more until it is a reflex reaction with solid foundation.

I have not seen how you can trick or overcome the door guards in any ways, so I can only said what I have known. If there is any thing sounds funny, it may be my language barrier, and please do point them out. Thanks.

[Merryprankster]

B.Tunks/PaulLin;

Whew! Glad that's over! I admit to getting crotchety, personally...it seems sometimes we just all go round in circles about who does what best...and that seemed where we were headed. I forgot that PaulLin is not a native English speaker, so it's my responsibility to ask for clarification.

Paul Lin--When somebody uses the word fallacious, what they are saying is that they don't agree with your argument because they think parts of it are wrong. It doesn't mean that anybody is lying. It's more like when two people have a disagreement about politics. Somebody might think that one way of thinking about something makes more sense than another way, so they might call the other argument a fallacy. They are both honest people with a different opinion. I think it's perfectly acceptable to become angry when people call you a liar.



About the point that you have disagreed with me, I think I own you a further explanation. The way we have experienced in our art, when you are at higher level, you will find more difficult to be the attacker. By a solid training of rooting, body solidifying, door guarding, you will left a very few choice to attack. Especially you can't reatch out far, as further you reatched out, more leaking in the doors.

I agree!


If you can't hold your own balance and be ready to follow up with next move at the end of the previous move, you will have go back to foundation drills training.

I agree again! I spend more time drilling my basics these days than anything else. At white belt, I thought I was learning them. At blue belt, I thought I was starting to get the hang of it. Now, at purple belt, I'm pretty sure I don't know what I'm doing yet. :D


I have not seen any techniques shown (include BJJ) that has a chance of breaking inside the doors unless you can't keep them closed properly.

This I take some issue with. To me, a fight is relative. I'd like to be perfect all the time and I'd like my skill to be so good that I am able to always stop my attacker. However, combat skill is relative. To a beginner, all my doors are closed, no matter what I do. To my instructor, all my doors are open no matter what I do. I want, of course, to be able to train so that I reach the same, or better level as my instructor.

However, competition has taught me that even the best have people who can beat them! Occasionally, you get what we call a "phenom" who is just amazing at everything--Rickson Gracie is apparently the BJJ phenom--the best in the world have sparred with him and they say he treats them like babies. Anyway, it's not that these guys aren't good--it's just that Rickson is better.

In an ideal world, if we could do everything perfectly, I agree with what you say--we'd learn what we are learning so well that our opponent would be almost helpless. In an ideal world, between two perfect masters, sparring would be the counter to the counter to the counter, and nobody would get anywhere.

[BeiTangLang]

Umm,...guys,....not to sound like a mod or anything,...but;
can I shut this topic down yet??
:D

[darksands]

Steal the Peach... I win. Now you may shut this thread down...

[PaulLin]

I still have something to say, but nomater how many words I can put down, it is not better than just one face to face hand on discussion.

To be more detailed, it is the external 3 harmonies--hands and feets, elbows and knees, shoulders and hips--that I would strongly suggested about guarding the door. Also the 3 points on one line concept. The sinking hips also has to be strictly enforced. The triangle legs and bow-arrow stance and steps must be there too.

Well, too much to say, just hope you can come down to Orange County, CA some time so I can show you, then we can see exactly what we are talking about. I will leave it off since some other people are fed up with this.