Quesrtion about TST method....circles

[S.Teebas]

Hi,

I want to start a discussion on issues, or theories that are used under TST methods and the use of the circles theory. Is anone here willing to discuss this??...and people who are under the TST linage here? I am intersted in talking about the flow of the cicles and force..

Anyone here the know about this?

[red5angel]

S Teebas, why dont you start off the conversation? I am not in TST but am interested to hear it.....

[byond]

o.k lets talk..................imagine a sphere. extend your tan sao and imagine this sphere is siting on top of your tan. this obviously works for some and not others. if you practise twc and you have a tan up to your upper gate you loose the correct angle. if you are, say in leung sheung lineage you pretty much got it. so..the tan is the bottom of the sphere. now if you flip the sphere over the tan becomes the bong and is now the top of the sphere. i had a hard time grasping this at first because i see everything as triangles. but with a little study im beggining to get it. this is to utilize the power of an arch. i always thought a triangle was the strongest structure but i guess its an arch. and thats what tst is using. siu nim tao teaches the correct structure and developes the nim lik or idea force which empowers everything.

[hunt1]

I am willing to discuss TST circle energy usage at least up to a point. TST's theories are very important and their usage is rare.Byond the way TST taught me the tan and bong used different spherical energies.They were not top and bottom of the same sphere although at times the spheres can intersect and appear as one.An example would be the elbow/bong from bui jee.This does relate to the tan.

[byond]

:D lets hope this goes better than the pole conversation:D
please elaborate on the tan bong sphere. your information wasnt specific enough for me to dig what your saying.
tst taught you directly??
my knowledge is based on several things. 1. all of his available writings 2. video footage of him performing snt 3.working out with a grandstudent of his a couple years ago 4.a small conversation with one of sifu lit's students 5. a seminar that i have on video tape which doesnt have the forms per say but has him explaining the theory . he says with his own mouth(in cantonese of course) about the tan being th bottom and the bong being the top of the same sphere. you learned something different from him?? i dont see how they would be seperate ,perhaps you can elaborate...................
of cource my understanding is from my referance point. having not met him first hand has made it hard to put the pieces together.....................................b

[CanadianBadAss]

The circle theory isn’t difficult to understand, but without an actual demonstration it's easy to pass off as just "theory" that can't really translate effectively into human body mechanics.

Even if you try imagining your tan sao with a circle on top and rotating into bong sao, and you think you make perfect circle it won’t do much good. Being able to actually use the circle theory the way TST intends comes from a combination of many things developed through practicing TST wing chun. Ya… so discussing this on the internet (and people who don’t do TST style) might not by the easiest thing to do…

[Miles Teg]

One of the things I came to understand, on a very simplistic level, was that no matter what martial art you practice you can't escape circular movement.
What ever you do with your elbow you can't help but move in an arch or circle.
Your fist can move in a straight line but whats behind it is your elbow which is moving in a circle. And thats just one type.

[straight blast]

Is TST Tsui Seng Ting? It'd make it a lot easier if I knew this...

[hunt1]

As CAB points TST's WC is hard to explain over the internet and I am by no means an expert of his version.I have had the opportunity for some hands on time with him.
I think looking at circles from the Bi Jee form is the place to start since you can see the circles.
For referrence if you read the Yip Chun Dan Conner book(thanks Roy)Yip Chun says that YipMan changed the elbow strikes from vertical,horizontal and diagonal to all vertical.Bil Jee was meant to train spherical energy in all directions.TST had access to this version.Chum Kui trains the horizontal sphere.Bil Jee trains sphere energy used at the same time in many directions.

As Miles pointed out the energy and its direction flow from the elbow so looking at the hand position etc may be deceptive when trying to determine the shape and direction of the energy.

The problem I have found in translation is that often cantoneese does not have direct english equivilents.You end up with a sifu explains for 2 minutes and the translation comes out"you hit like this".You know there is more but you dont know what.

While Tan and bong can be part of the same sphere application as seperate spheres will lead to better results.For example try to have the energy from the bong meet with the energy from the tan.In application you may find that this will lead to a position where the bong can be taken advantage of.

sphere vs triangle.Sphere is much better in application but much harded to do.Triangle has specific weak points that can be attacked.The sphere has no such points.

[S.Teebas]

If muscular force is used against a structure that has circles drawn to break the other persons structure (by putting them off balance or whatever ....pre strike etc..) should the circles force be constant, in realtion to the flow from both directions from the part that is recieving; to the other part of the circle that completes the drawn circle....does it come back to aid force?...does the oppositions force spin back at himself?...and use our structure as a kind of windmill (if that analogy fits??). Be it a diagional circle or horizontal or anything..)??

Ok this is pretty hard to put into words i agree CBA! If we could only draw or somthing!

[byond]

hey hunt1,
so you speak cantonese?? where exactly did you get hands on with tst??
how will seperate sphere application lead to "better results"? what do you consider better results??
i agree with chum kiu teaching the horizontal plane and biu tze expanding into the hemeshere. yip chun suggests yip man changed biu yze?? ive learned 2 different versions of biu tze one only has the verticle elbos..i couldnt figure out why that was. why did yip man supposidly change it??
what i dont get is the different sphere thing.....he(tst) explained the sphere issue using a large metal ring. he placed it onto his tan. he than rolled his tan into the bong motion and should how the ring(sphere) rotates.
by using the same sphere i can keep the contact point (like i did with the triangles) but allows me to have a more penetrating offensive energy from what many people use as only deffensive. i have never made a distinction(offence to me is deffence) but thats me. do you mean over lapping spheres??
what do you mean about having the tan and bong energy meet???
agreed on the arch being superior to the triangle:D

[CanadianBadAss]

Can the TST power be generated if you aren't standing? Say you were to learn BJJ, could you apply your power to grappling?
The power comes alot from our structure(stance, straight spine,rooting and what not), and I can't see how you do that if you are rolling around... What do you think?

[kungfu cowboy]

Release the Krakken, LOL!! Harry Hamlin scares me.:(

[yuanfen]

It indeed is difficult to discuss wing chun details on the net.
I have read some of and about TST's ideas. I dont know Cantonese but with silent corrections I have rolled with TST-
on two different occasions. I am not in the TST line but I would be careful about overgeneralisations...suchas--- someone in the thread seemed to contast circles with triangles. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. You can have a triangular or
pyramid shaped drill bit but when used or rolled it can make circles.
In other words- I urge care in jumping to conclusions on relationship between
lines and circles.

[byond]

yuanfen- understood..... and good point--
b

[fa_jing]

Perhaps off-topic, but I was taught that changing from tan to bon and back, it's like you had a nail through your wrist just below the joint, and this point stays fixed in space, at least during practice.
-FJ

[S.Teebas]

CanadianBadAss.....


Can the TST power be generated if you aren't standing? Say you were to learn BJJ, could you apply your power to grappling?

I dont know from personal experience. I dont practice grapling (i have done some basic stuff in the past, sprawling some basic grappling escapes etc..) but i dont actively practice it. I jut twant to say that first because I dont pretend to know somthing that I dont know.

The only advice i could possibly offer is something i heard a si-hing in my class said. Because he's one of the seniors in the class and does have a pretty good grasp of WC concepts and can perform what he understands.

Basically he started BJJ lessons, and he said the instructor couldn't believe that he hadn't any experience in grapling. He said it was quite fun to practice the BJJ. I asked if he could use anything from WC and he said he felt he could use his centre and the sensitivity was a good advantage. He also said that it was quite easy to detect what the guy was going to do...(sensitivity) and so fond it relatively easy to counter SOME of the things.

He didnt say that he could destroy them or anything, but just that his WC knowledge had helped him somewhat. Im not sure if the structure can work on your back, i assume it can to a certain degree, but i have my doubts about it being anywhere near as effective as it is when standing up.

[byond]

hey guys.....well....wc is a set of principles that can be applied to any situation...you need to be creative....as rene pointed out , if your on your back..than thats where your "root" is going to be coming from...your shoulders and back, feet flat on the ground....if your opponent has mounted you and when he goes to strike ..he is in range for a joining..(.loping...jeeting)...
and i would say you need standing structure for your root and ging manifestation to be 100%...but..no matter what you always have your nim lik.....so sitting you can punch, on your back you can punch....as long as your relaxed you can always put body unity into it....just ask siu yuk men....:D

[anerlich]

Teebas' si-hing's experiences are not unique. My WC school is also a Machado BJJ associate school. BJJ, like WC, is an art based on leverage, technique, intelligence and sensitivity rather than strength, speed, and power. So it would be extremely disappointing if the touted attributes of WC did not carry over into other arenas. The Australian Head of Machado BJJ, John Will, has on a couple of occasions mentioned that he thought we were picking his stuff up unusually quickly.

Grappling/groundfighting is NOT just about "rolling around on the ground." Much of the game is spent with you in the top position. Positions like mount, sidemount, kneeride involve your upper body being erect, and all the postural considerations of a standup fighter apply. To strike powerfully from one of these positions (which are the best way to CONTROL a downed opponent), you need to consider many of the same issues you do for standup - though you probably need to consider bending at the waist to deliver powerful elbows and headbutts from one of these positions. Same with being inside someone's closed guard.


so sitting you can punch, on your back you can punch
Sitting I can agree, on your back, I can't. You can't use much other than your shoulder and arm to punch with on your back, and taking your hands away from your neck or your elbows from your body when mounted, sidemounted or sidecontrolled is very risky. About the first submission you learn in BJJ is how to exploit the opponent's straight arm from the mount (spin to cross armbar) or a loose forearm (pin the wrist to the floor and upper figure 4). Better to wait for him to move and then attempt to trap an arm or disrupt his position in preparation for an escape.

If he is in your guard, you can certainly use WC techniques to redirect and slip past punches on your way to a submission or sweep.

FWIW, I can get at least two collar chokes, a guillotine, the rear naked choke, a standing cutting armbar and standing figure 4 out of movements in SLT. That's without trying to be rigorous about it even.

I know zip about TST's power generation methods. If they work on the ground, great. If not (and I'm not saying they don't) then you'll need to add something else to function effectively there. End of story.

[Miles Teg]

Yuanfan
"I dont know Cantonese but with silent corrections I have rolled with TST-
on two different occasions".

I don't understand this sentence, could you elaborate.

[yuanfen]

Really nota big deal. I rolled twice each with TST and WSL during their first US visit- in San Francisco and Houston without a translator. Hand gestures and touches replaced verbal communication during rolling.

[yuanfen]

Really nota big deal. I rolled twice each with TST and WSL during their first US visit- in San Francisco and Houston without a translator. Hand gestures and touches replaced verbal communication during rolling.

[black and blue]

Both TST and WSL! You lucky Sod.

So... what was your impression?

C'mon, give us some info - what was it like? The feel, the reflex, the shapes, the control.

How did you fare?

[yuanfen]

black and blue-TST.WSL, VK, HC and several others---was in the right time and place.

Anerlich-We must be punching differently.Not a matter of right wrong- likely differences in perspectives. I do wc punches fairly well with my back flat on the ground (even with someone on me). But my wc punches are different from Jack Dempsey's punching bio mechanics.

[urban tea]

Canadian Badass,

No the TST method of energy cannot work on the ground. It only works when you are standing straight , spinal cord aligned and head back. Your muscles in yoru body must be totally relaxed.

Imagine your fok sau resting on a table. Now that is relaxed. Once you lift your arm an inch off of the table, it is no longer totally relaxed and the "Lim Lek" energy will not work.

It's very hard to do and get used to. I have experience with one of his 20 year students.

His method of wc cannot be understood by watching any of his videos. To the non TST lineage guy, it would seem that his wc has elbows OUT and their rolling looks sloppy.

But when you feel and start to train their method, it totally changes.

As for as the sphere..or circle theory it goes something like this. Imagine that you are a big ball. And imagine that your opponent is one also. When he comes at you, how can you turn yourself (ball) into deflecting the ball away from you?

As for as his energy, here's a sample.

If I had my tan out and the partner has his fok on me...to use my "LIM LEK" I would have to...

1. Relax my entire shoulder. Not an easy thing to do. Just because your biceps are relaxed does not mean your shoulder is. VERY HARD TO DO.

1. Imagine your shoulder falling into your elbow.
3. Imagine three points (to begin with). Your shoulder, elbow and wrist connecting to the center of your opponent. Imagine a line and the energy shooting from those three joints to your opponent.

Then when you move your tan to actually move the guy, do it casually - without thinking.

Don't think about moving the wrist first, elbow or shoulder. If you do, your shoulder tenses a tiny bit and your energy won't come out. Just imagine a 100$ bill on the table and how you just go for it without thinking

Then it works. And all of this is with the opponent stationary. Imagine trying to do all of this in chi sau !!! Not an easy thing

Then later...let's say I am doing chi sau. Let's say I raise my bong sau when needed. I would imagine my left shoulder with a line connecting to my right bong sasu to make the bong sau stronger.

Complicated stuff. You can't begin to understand without feeling. No way.

This using the Yi or intetion of the joints is not just in wing chun. There's something in kung fu called the SIX HARMONIES.

They are 3 pairs of external and 3 pairs of internal aspects

I only know about the 3 pairs of external

1. wrist and feet
2 elbows and knees
3. shoulder and waist.

These must be aligned. You will find in other styles such as northern shaolin, Hung Gar, or CLF that all of these principles are there.

[S.Teebas]

Don't think about moving the wrist first, elbow or shoulder. If you do, your shoulder tenses a tiny bit and your energy won't come out. Just imagine a 100$ bill on the table and how you just go for it without thinking

Good post Urban Tea. What you said above is true, but i find that somtimes its difficult to 'let go' of pre-concived ideas and "just do it!" ...a kind of mental barrier that alot of people have trouble with. In some ways its a case of UNlearning! (there are many opposties in WC)

[byond]

hey urban ...great post.....i disagree with one point..tst method and other methods that train "nim lik" at first need to be trained standing with the structure alignment that you mention...this is not only for correct skeletal alignment but for our breathing to sink, our yi to sink, to learn the correct relaxation..basicaly to "chum"... once this has been trained you dont have to be in ygkym to root...you are always rooted...look at ken chung, he doesnt need to be in a deep stance to generate his soft power....tst...doesnt have a deep stacne during his demos and look at what he can do.....once relaxation, yi and nim lik are developed...you can use it in any situation...the nim lik and yi lead your chi...tst even says once nim lik is trained it can be called upon at any time to fill the whole body with permeating energy.
i dont know about anyone else but my nim lik is currently developed enough that i can utilize it while on my back

[urban tea]

Hmm

Yeah I agree. Back straight !

Which part of my post don't you agree on? You mean you think lim lek can work on the ground?

[byond]

yes...if lim lek is the same thing as nim lik.....mind power and chi can be used at anytime...of cource we can maximise ..but my point from experieance is once the nim lik or force of idea is learned it can be used in any situation...if im on my back ..i still have my "yi"..right? i also can generate a "nim" right? my "chi"still flows right?? if im relaxed i can use my body as 1 unit right?? and i can use my feet and back to draw from as the source for root (albiat not a great root but still ).......brian

[dzu]

Relaxing the arm and the shoulder is just part of the equation. The intention directs the center, which directs the entire body. Deep horse or high horse, the key is to use what the situation calls for. Those with great skill can neutralize an opponent's force before it becoms too great, hence no need for a deep horse to absorb a large force .

There are lots of ways to talk circles and nobody has a monopoly on those concepts. Use the circle to spread or disperse force, use the circle to issue force, use the circle to link the hands, use the circle to break structure, use the circle to regain or maintain structure, use the circle to change bridges etc.

As for on the ground, some things will have to be adapted, but the concepts remain the same. The ability to use the glutes, knees, and ankles may be compromised but we work with what we have.

Dzu

[urban tea]

TST's Lim Lek energy does not work on the ground. You gotta be crazy to think it will work.

[byond]

:( im sorry for si gung that his lim lek doesnt work on the ground...perhaps he should train more...my nim lik works on the ground or standing on my head..in fact my nim lik works all the time....but...ive trained it ;) and perhaps im crazy or perhaps if you practised more you would develope nim lik...
and to clairify si gung chu calls siu lim tao...siu nim tao, because thats what greatgrandmaster called it. "nim" means idea..lik means force or power...so nim lik means force of idea

[urban tea]

Beyond,

You can say what you want and try to rationalize in any way you can. You can sit there and say what this cantoense words means and that.

It's obvios that you have not trained with anyone in the TST lineage to get any idea of what NIM LEK IS. "NIM LEK" is just a TERM that TST uses to call the energy.

If we change the name then what? Then you'll try to rationalize again?

This is something that must be learned personally. Any other way is speculation.

I stand in a stance and TST's students come to me and say, "The energy works better if your head is back a tiny bit".

So how are you gonan tel me it works when you're on the ground, spinal cord all bent like that?

next questions please. Yes I am rude.

[byond]

hey urban...rude i dont have a problem with...someone who lacks an education is a problem
i dont have to rationalize anything to anyone..this is a discusion forum..so i thought we were having a discusion..usually a discusion doesnt include suggesting that someone has a psychosis simply because we dont agree with there"opinion".
...my training proves my understanding..obviously so does yours
.the word used to describe something can help you understand it better which i was trying to get across that nim lik or lim lik or sheep lik or whatever name you choose to call it , once developed, does not need to be "produced" standing in your stance.....as chu shong tin has said in the past..".when you pick up a feather you have to use nim before your body will do the action of picking up...so nim training shouldnt be a struggle".
hey i bet sigung chu doesnt understand his own concept....
making sure you have spinal alignment will not by itself generate a "nim"....structural alignment develops root and allows your chi to flow better and prepares you for body unity...concentrated one pointedness generates a strong "nim" .......

[urban tea]

Beyond,


answer this please

1. have you learned wc the TST method through TST or his students himself?

No you haven't. I looked in your profile and I know that for a fact. Ken has not learned TST's type of wing chun. He has learned some of it to get an idea from TSTs long time student- Leung Ga Wing.

You have not learned any.

I currently learn from one of TST's 20 year students. I have touched hands with his disciple, the tst lineage students from Austrlia and have seen and touched TST's hands at his monthly meetings.

I am not bragging. I know my wc isn't good. However, I am stating the fact that I have experienced TSTs method of wc from a first hand perspective. You can't have an opinion if you haven't experienced TST's method of WC first hand.

If you have not learned TST's type of energy first hand, you won't understand it. You won't understand any of his articles or instructional VCDS.

Those articles on his website are useless and so are his sets of VCDs he has for sale if you don't train his way of wing chun.

[byond]

i listed all my sources of knowledge in my original post. and yes i did work out with a student of a 20 year + sifu under chu shong tin on a regular basis. i have also spent (finnaly made it to 10 years) studying wc and internal kf theory..so sorry your wrong about having not learned "any". i thought we were talking...i thought we were sharing..thats all..no more..no less....i truly wanted to convey to you what "nim" was because it can make your training come to a new level. and i have felt it first hand..i can use it first hand...my sifu uses it incredibly well first hand....carl d. uses it first hand
and who is this ken your talking about??if he learned from a student of si gung he is a lucky man. and if i listed all the various wc ive learned and worked out with you would have fallen asleep reading it...and that is no joke.
i know its sad, but take for example yip man....he taught how many people???and how many truly even had an inclining what he was truly teaching??just because you touched hands with sigung doesnot mean you understand the theory of using the mind to lead the chi....if you can do this in a controlled environment and reproduce the same results over and over again than you have developed something. the nim is not the chi or energy,,,its the focused mind that that leads the chi

[Miles Teg]

I train TST lineage, but I haven't been at it for very long.
Urbon Tea, you would know much more than me, but I can't help thinking that you do not need to be rooted to use mind force.

A few times I have experimented leaning against an object holding myself up using the structure of my bong sau and it worked, my arm muscle was still relaxed.

One time I was kind of play fighting with a mate, and we got in a grapple and on the ground I grabbed his wrist and with the other hand pressed a tan sau down on his elbow. He was resisting but I just focussed my intent, put my body behind it and he couldn't resist and ended up in an arm lock. He is much stronger than me, although he is a pretty crap fighter, most people have no trouble twisting out of those positions. The point is when it came to force against force I overcame him and I wasn't even tensing my muscles.

I may be wrong or not applying mind force, but before you comment just try standing by a pole or the corner of a wall, put your arm in the bong sau position against the corner or pole and then lean your body into it, so that the corner or pole is holding you up and supporting your weight. Could you hold yourself up?
I wouldn't lean in too much as the edges of the object dig into the arm and it hurts, in which case you may tense up.
Just lean enough so that you are not rooted.

Did it work? Please try it before commenting.

[CanadianBadAss]

I was shown(at the school I train at, which is TST lineage) how it's easier for beginners to stay relaxed and deal with larger amounts of force if the have their back against a wall, that's because all the force is being rooted into it. Without the wall to support you however, the force has to be directed into the ground through your legs, and pass through so many more muscles that a novice would usually tense up, preventing him from becoming "rooted".

The same power is there, if not more as your arms are connected right to the source, rather then passing through so many joints. And I don't see how standing against a wall would be much different then lying on the ground. So i think I'm going to take byonds side on this...

[urban tea]

Beyond,

So you're saying that you and your teacher use TST's type of energy in your training?

When you do your slt or chi sau you imagine your shoulders, elbows , wrists, wasit, knees and feet as a line connecting to the opponent's center?

If you raise a right bong sau, you imagine a line connecting from your left shoulder to your bong sau?

If you don't do this then you are not practicing the TST method.

You may be using intent " Yi" but not as specifically as TST's way goes.

As for the ground, i misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about some wrestling, bjj type of deal and you could use TST's type of energy.

Why do you call TST your sigung?
If i learn from person A and person A learned from person B, then person B would be my si gung.

[byond]

1) im saying most good sifu who have learned directly from the grandmaster generation use these principles....not all...but most...some sifu use different words to describe the same actions and principles...dont get so caught up in semantics
2) yes...any good vt student does this...ive heard it described from numerous different families of vt
3)no, i dont do this in those words. bong sao is a motion not a static position...and with my dai ying the shoulder poitioning in relation to the center line is balanced
4)so you are an authoized represenitive of chu shong tin?? are you an authorized represenitive for the vtaa?? you dont even know what nim lik is...i seriously doubt your opinion matters at all
5)we are really getting somewhere you actually know what yi is...im happy for you:D
6)misunderstood??? i wrote it in english and reiterated several times...look at the post by canadianbadass and miles....you are the only one not getting the picture ....i realize compreshension skills are something we are born with...but if you slow down and read something twice perhaps you can make up for a lack of apptitude in this department. i never said anything about bjj or wrestling..i said on my back..because that is what would happen if i got took down...i would land on my back since i dont study bjj or wrestling .
7)actually im in the yip man family. chu shong tin is actually my dai si bak gung. dai si gung because he is current head of the yip man clan due to his seniority. originally he would have been my dai si sook gung but my lineage offically has changed in the last several months. that whole first generation are si sook gung or si bak gung to me and anyone in the 3rd or 4th generation.i wasnt trying to get specific..i was simply using the title as a respectfull precursor to saying his name in public

[anerlich]

chu shong tin ... is current head of the yip man clan due to his seniority
Wow, brave call! I dare you to make THAT assertion on a thread of its own.

I think it's good that teachers such as Chu/Tsui Sifu strive to develop, improve and articulate their methods of power generation. Shows the system is evolutionary and not static.


So how are you gonan tel me it works when you're on the ground, spinal cord all bent like that?

If I'm on the ground, my spinal cord is not "all bent", nor is my spine, which is the more relavent statement. Other than innervation, the spinal cord has zip to do with power generation. The spine is another matter.

BTW, the spine is designed to articulate and move, and you can generate and absorb significantly more power if you allow it to do so, rather than ponce around like you have a broomstick up there.

[urban tea]

Beyond,

When I said, " I misunderstood on the ground etc.." It was actually saying " Oh . sorry I misunderstood." Yes, I was wrong for thinking you never learned from anyone from the TST lineage. hehe =) So perhaps it can work on the ground all flat and relaxed?

As for
------------------------------------------------
2) yes...any good vt student does this...ive heard it described from
numerous different families of vt
------------------------------------------------

Interesting. I don't agree but who knows maybe I will hear it from someone else some day. Can you be more specific to what other sifus have talked about this method of energy?

I have a question. when you have your tan sau out - do you imagine something similar to a waterhose being turn on? And imagining that would move your tan automatically, itself.



To answer your question :

And no I am not a representative of Tsui Seung Tin, and I will never claim to understand his method of wing chun - even if I studied it for 20 years.


Annerlich,

Tsui Seung Tin is the most senior among the rest of the group in hong kong. Next up would be Lok Yiu I believe. Then after that it's a toss up - everyone's pretty much the same year - a few months here and there.:D :D :p

[mun hung]

I thought Lok Yiu was the second disciple of Yip Man, and the most senior of his clan - alive.

[yuanfen]

Those articles on his website are useless and so are his sets of VCDs he has for sale if you don't train his way of wing chun.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Useless? I dont think that you are being fair or respectful to your own specifoc lineage holder. Are you?

[urban tea]

YuanFen,

What I meant was that if you don't train TST's method of wing chun then watching his VCDS or reading his articles won't do you much good if any at all.

Same as saying you cannot understand his wc without feeling it.


Mun Hung,

Lok Yiu most senior? I don't know, I was guessin....:D

[byond]

anerlich.....lol...your right...that was rather daring of me....
mun hung.....lok yiu is the most senior student chu shong tin is second in line. lok yiu is very sick and there fore has been incabable for years actually . when i say chu shong tin is head...most everyone in H.K acknowledges this....i know this first hand

urban...flat and relaxed?? try some ginseng , it will get your yang up. the water hose visualization is something ive seen used in ki development in several japanese arts. i use a different visualization....the feeling in my tan sao is a heavy one with electrisity coursing down it . some people prefer a visualization of heat , or water, or electirsity or whatever...it depends on the individual :D :D
mmmmmhhh. ...how many examples do you want for the centerline connection theory??if i gave you one would you believe me?? if i gave you 100 would you believe me?? :(
and the useless vcd you refer to, what is the web site address where i can purchase a copy????

[dzu]

I have a question. when you have your tan sau out - do you imagine something similar to a waterhose being turn on? And imagining that would move your tan automatically, itself.

Yes. I've used many different types of visualizations. I've also practiced the forms this way by moving my intention around. This was one way I was taught and I'm not in TST's lineage.

Dzu

[reneritchie]

Brian - If memory serves, Lok Yiu sifu gave a short seminar last year (the first or second in the attempted line of VTAA monthly seminars). A little controversial, but full of really good content, I believe.

I think Lun Gai is the seniormost student of Yip Man still living (since Kwok Fu passed away). There are also private students whom few know, and short time students mixed in. The general consensus when I was in HK was that Tsui sifu was the man to see for the art itself, while Wong Shun-Leung's students were a must for those who were interested in application. A couple private students from the bus association also seemed well recommended, but were very closed and difficult to gain access to.

Rgds,

RR

[urban tea]

Beyond,

Smile ! :p

I'll bring up something that I said before. If you raise a right bong sau, do you imagine a line connecting from your left shoulder to your right bong?

This is different from the centerline theory I supposed.

Main point is that the Leung Sheung lineage doesn't use the type of energy that TST uses.


As for the VCD's - you cannot buy them online. I bought them when I visited the school. There are 10 discs to it.

[byond]

hey rene.....mmmmmhhh...well you know what my project is right?? i was told he....is loosing neurological control so he cant partisipate....which makes tst/cst senior in H.K...but as you said lun gai is still in fat san....and ill be honest..nothing happens in H.K vt without cst/tst giving the go ahead...at least thats what ive found and we are really connected if you know what i mean.....please dont mistake what i said..i never said anyone was better than anyone else...i have heard the same about wsl guys as you...

urban....my poor friend....keeping dancing to a tune that only you can hear.....i answered you..if you cant comprehend that, than get out of the classroom. centerline with dai ying....has nothing to do with the centerline in itself...reread...let it sink in.....and remember i am smiling.
and now your an expert in the leung sheung lineage...interesting....i would really like to work out with you one day..your skill must be amazing...and you still have no idea what kind of energy tst uses and i can tell that by what you write....and what you dont write
thanks for the info on the vcd's....................b:D

[urban tea]

Beyond,

I am not except in any wing chun. All I know is that TST's energy is different from LS's way.

I have worked out with one of LS's long time students and he uses different energy than TST. =]

My skill is not amazing but yours must be. ALl mighty. You are great you are great. You are correct, all -mighty. Please teach me.

I may not be an expert in the TST energy..but i'm positive that LS way doens't train that way. So since you don't agree on that part, well next topic. No point in aruging if you're set by your beliefs.

You are my friend.

[urban tea]

Here's another quite note to consider.

TST never realy fully taught his LIm Lek type of energy until 10 years ago. His 20 year student told me this. He said thatr TST did teach Lim Lek but he never fully understood the way it worked and HOW to teach it. Nevertheless, he taught it but many students couldn't understand or apply it well. It wasn't until about 10 years ago that he knew how to teach it and that's where he is today.

[byond]

well ....no 2 people use energy the exact same way...just because one ls guy you met doesnt ....does not mean there arnt 100 guys who do......honestly though.....i agree to a point...i never said they train the same way..stop putting words in my mouth...the ls and the cst approach is different...doesnt make one better than the other.....the thing though is the same concepts are there...thats what my point is...sometimes hidden inside a different word..but they are there none the less...perhaps you dont want to see it because that would mean your not so special anymore.....:( ......im sorry.....
perhaps cst didnt teach this individual until 10 years ago..that doesnt mean he didnt teach this concept to others right from the begining......and i hate to break it to you...this is not cst concept.....this is yip man's concept.....yip man explained to cst what siu nim tao was....and that ,was to develop "nim lik"....still confused???
i agree it is a concept that some people due to there education may not be able to grasp...or to utilize

[urban tea]

Hi Beyond,

First of all your style of typing is annoying. :p

If you want me to stop putting words in your mouth then you must stop putting words in mine. You said I was an LS lineage expert but I am not.

You said, "the ls and the cst approach is different...doesnt make one better than the other....."

I never said one was better than the other.

I belive the approaches and uses of energy are different in the LS lineage and the TST lineage. You don't agree and that is fine.

Discussion ends there on that topic.

TST did teach his Lem Lik concept but it wasn't until 10 years ago that he knew HOW to teach it and his students STARTED to understand it. Which means , for example, Jim Fung didn't learn much of the Lim Lek. His training was more on hand techniques. I am not saying Jim Fung isn't good. I'm sure he has learned Lim Lek now though to add to his teaching.

Today there are less hand techniques taught in the TST lineage and more Lim Lek because he feels that if the opponent can't even move away his hands then thers' no need for Lim Lek.

Food for thought :

Here is the process of learning at the school.

1. Ten months of Sil Lum Tao and nothing else.
2. Start to do don chi sao . No lap sau drill is used.
3. After they do these four 2-man chi sau excercises. These were actually from Yip Man. The LS lineage doesn't use these. (I am not saying one is better than the other mr beyond. =] )

After these four 2-man drills are taught the students are left to go free - chi sau. TST belives that every hand technque stems from these 4 drills.

Then ...I don't know what comes next. Dummy, more refinement on lim lek, etc.


Beyond.. you keep bashing my lack of education while your'e the one with horrible typing weaponry. Lighten up.
Do you want to purchase the set of 10 VCDS of TST?

[byond]

...lol....i never said that you said one was better than the other....i was simply expressing my opinion that one wasnt better than the other.....
basic vt principles are consistant imo.....approach is different from sifu to sifu
describe the 4 -2 man chi sao drills if you will....i find it hard to believe that only cst has them....and how do you know ls doesnt have them....the ls guys(ken chung) are real secretive....they could have an extra hand form for all you or i know..lol
my typing weaponary ,as you call is done specificaly....it is my unique expression of my thoughts. as to spelling.....well...o.k i cant spell worth a ****...i never said i could spell good....but i do have good wc...:D ....and i think you will agree everyone has apptitude in differant areas....of cource somepeople have a complete lack of apptitude in all areas:rolleyes:
:) ya ,i got to lighten up....im irish..lol...i tend to be aggresive and go down the centerline;)
when you say purchase..do you mean you want to sell your originals ?? or copies????....if you have the inclination private message me

[urban tea]

Sup Beyond,

I'll try to describe the 4 two person drills. I'm sure LS learned it but the LS lineage does not use them, at least not the US group.

1. This is a hybrid of rolling and don chi sao.
2. Rolling with Lut Sao
3. Lut Sao around
4. chain punching,

I feel tired and I gotta do laundry. Maybe I'll describe them later.

Wong Siu may use them I believe. How do I know this?

=]

I know what ken teaches and I train with one of the long time LS students. (in addition to the TST guy.) I'm not saying im good.



Oh and you said you have good wc. If I trained wc for 10 years I would never say that I am good because I will always strive to get better. I always have the high hand masters in mind when I train. I want to get as good as Lam Chun Fai, Chan Jing Chong, Lee Kok Leung, Ken, Ah Dak, Ah Cheung, Wong Long, Mun Siu Hong, Choi sifu, TST, etc etc. Saying good will make me feel that I have accomplished and learned a lot and I won't train as hard. The ****hest I will go is.. " I'm okay" or I would admit that I have a foundation - that is when I build one.

As for the VCDS- I was just playing. I can't sell you my originals or copies. =]

[byond]

mmmmmmm...how do you know anything :rolleyes: is the real question....
feeling tired and being tired are to differant things
mmmmm....ken teaches substantialy differant then other ks students..au dok and jack ling are more alike and there is more likeness with the other ls students than to ken...keep in mind just because your friend doesnt or hasnt learned these things only means he hasnt learnd these things....that does not reflect at all on what the leung sheung family has.....even if ken doesnt have them that only means ken doesnt have them
you saying that your are not good is the truth:D ..i respect that in you.....me saying im good is the truth...of course i want to be great like the gentlman you listed....good to me is mediochre....its not bad,,,,but it also can be improved......so when you try to descypher my language make sure to use something other than yourself as a referance point:)
:confused: and by the way.....i just wanted to see how far you would go with your lie.....there is no 10 vcd set.....there are 2 vcd's that he produced....and it is in cantonese not english...so unless you can speak cantonese...i understand why you feel they are worthless;)

[urban tea]

I don't want to type out the description of the 4 drills because i wouldn't do you that favor. Ken may have learned it but he doesn't teach it. I'm not saying that in any negative way. Just a fact friend.

Now this is getting fun.

You said : "me saying im good is the truth...of course i want to be great like the gentlman you listed"

Let's look at this from a logical point of view. Would your teacher Carl come out and say that he is good? Let's say he does say that. Would Ken say that Carl is good? Would Leung Sheung say Ken is good?

I'm sure Ken has said, " ah... if LS was here, I'd ask him so many questions..."

So you're good eh beyond? You train for 10 years and you can outright say you're good? TST's guy said...to get the tension out of your shoulders is hard enough. After that you have to get the tension out of your knees. Do you understand that? Cause I sure don't.


The TST guy I train with that that he's not good. Why does he say that? Compared to today's wing chun guys, sure he's good.

He said, " I won't say that I am good. The guys that were good are the first ones that learned wing chun from Yip Man. Leung Seung, my sifu, LOk Yiu and those guys. They are good. Now in this present day when the art of wing chun has came to us? Us? Look at us monkeys compared to them? I won't dare say that I am good."

I talk to other masters..southern dragon, tai chi, hsing yi, mantis and to me they can kick a lot of as5. But each and every single one of them said the same thing about their teachers, "My master that taught me....*whew* ....now he's amazing. I couldn't TOUCH him."

ANd if you think back at THOSE masters, I'm sure they said the exact same thing about their teachers.

Then you got this guy beyond who just says that he is good. hahahahaha. =]

As for the 10 VCD set, it is not a lie. Just because it's not on the VTAA website doesn't mean that TST doesn't sell it. When I visited his school I saw them on the counter and bought them. You have no connections to HK so how would you know? Are you going to search the VTAA website again?

He also has finished this other VCD series where he put down everything he learned for his students. These VCDS will also be available someday.

He told his students, " These VCDS (the ones that haven't come out yet) are for you guys and wing chun. If I am not here, you can watch these and learn. But don't think you can learn by just watching them. haha I'm here right now teaching you personally and you still can't get it so don't think you can learn by just watching. Work hard."


You said :

"and it is in cantonese not english...so unless you can speak cantonese...i understand why you feel they are worthless"

The 2 VCD set is in cantonese but they are people on the side translating english buddy. The 10 VCD set is a seminar he gave in Australia. They cover SLT, CK, Chi Sau and the day they went to Futsan.

I'm not gonna copy those VCDS for you. If you want, you can give me money and I'll tell TST's guy to pick you up a set and I'll ship them to you. And don't call me a skam artist.

:rolleyes:

I do speak cantonese.

Lesson learned....

[byond]

.....urban my friend, you are more entertaining than a dog and pony show.....
1)as i said you have know idea what ken knows or teaches
2)as i said you have no idea what leung sheung knows
3)you only know what your friend knows which is limited to what he was taught
4)dont do me any favors but do yourself a favor and learn what nim lik really is:D
5)yes lets use logic....first you need to learn logistics....perhaps a book buy copi could help you
6)is your frail ego so easily threatened buy my statements???..should i have false humbleness??..just to play the role of a poser for another poser who i dont even know and dont care about
7) usually a sifu aknowledges when there students start progressing and getting "good"
8)im not suprised you dont understand releasing tension from the joints , you dont understand 90% of what i say and if you do have even a basic comprehension, it is on a very superficial level
9)do you think i care what anyone you know says or what you say?????i disagree yip man ,lok yiu, ls, cst...there not good..there great....i dont care how anyone uses the word "good".....i use it as i said in my last post....oh i forgot...no comprehension skills...oh well my friend keep trying:D
10)as i said rude doesnt bother me....ignorance does...
11)hhhmhhm no connections to h.k?? wrong again...im friends with one of cst's top disciple's and i am very connected in H.K...youll find out in about 6 months how connected i am if it truly matters to you.... anyway my friend said you are lieing...no such thing has been available except the two vcds and there is no english translation
12) i dont want or need anything from you
13)i hope your cantonese is better than your english
:D :D :D

[Siu Tze]

Hi Urban,

I'm curious who you might be and if I've ever meet you. You seem to know about Ah Duk and Ah Cheung. Who I have heard only from very close Kenneth Chung students. Are you in the Bay Area or in HK?

Please drop me an email. Thanks!

BTW, if no one has mentioned it. Byond is a burger and fries short of a happy meal. None of my Kenneth Chung friends have seen him work out. I doubt even Carl D. is his Sifu! And which Leung Sheung student did he take WC for 9 years? :rolleyes:

[byond]

if i wanted your opinion i would have stomp kicked it out of you:D
and i have never met ken....i learned from a sifu ,whose sifu learned from leung sheung. sooooooo..that means ken chung doesnt have a monopoly on leung sheung....and carl is not my sifu....i was going to learn from him but things didnt work out with a almost 3 hour drive due to a crummy car.....currently that has been fixed but have certain conflicts with carl ....which boil down to differant opinions......and i dont think he likes my opinion
you feel better little buddy????all included in the group.....ahhhhhhhh.... you belong....how special you are

[urban tea]

Hi Beyond,


The reason I thought you may have some skill (even though you talk like an idiot) is because I mistakenly thought you learned from Carl.

Your spelling is horrible. How old are you?

I think you're totallly foolish for thinking you're good . I think you're more foolish for not learning anything from my intelligent post on why you shouldn't say you're good!

You remind me of this guy who emailed me and said, " We should roll a bit. You could benefit a lot."


Your comments

1)as i said you have know idea what ken knows or teaches

2)as i said you have no idea what leung sheung knows

3)you only know what your friend knows which is limited to what he was taught

5)yes lets use logic....first you need to learn logistics....perhaps a book buy copi could help you

11)hhhmhhm no connections to h.k?? wrong again...im friends with one of cst's top disciple's and i am very connected in H.K...youll find out in about 6 months how connected i am if it truly matters to you.... anyway my friend said you are lieing...no such thing has been available except the two vcds and there is no english translation

My responses.

1. hehehehe. You speak too soon. And also "KNOW" is the wrong one. An educated person would type "NO."

2. I have trained with one of LS' TOP students. But yes, I dont know what LS knows because I Never met him.

3. My friend is the only OTHER person in hong kong who is teaching the TST way. He sees his sifu everyday as well. M-F 6-10pm

5. "COPI" is spelled " copy"

11. Ask your top disciple friend to buy you the 10 set VCD. It's 550$ hong kong dollars. Three discs cover SLT, three cover chum kil, three on chi sau and one is on the futsan day. Australia seminar .

If your friend hasn't heard of the seminar VCDS then he is just as connected as you are. If you send me 4$, I will burn and ship you one of the discs to you can look in the mirror and call yourself an idiot when the VCD gets to you. Wanna take the bet?

13. diew. heh.



More...

Siu Tze says you're a happy meal. Since no one from the LS family has seen you in person, then you suck!

Yep.

Do you feel a metling effect in your SLT? If you don't then you're not on the right path. But you will say " there are other words that describe the same concept" yada yada.
:D

[byond]

so are you the dog or the pony????:D
mmmmmm.....your spelling is horrible to.....you cant even spell byond correctly...at least i admit i cant spell...and as i said everybody has differant apptitude or lack of all apptitude as in your case.......
i never thought you had skill.....you ran from the conversation about nim lik and kung fu to a conversation about nothing of importance
well like everything you comment on, nothing relates to what i have said.....you have no idea what i have said because you cant or wont try to comprehend
1)o.k i was wrong in using know instead of no, big deal...almost everything you have ever said is wrong or completly basic except for part of your first post
3)i was refering to the leung sheung student...just because he never learned something does not mean ken doent know it or ken doesnt teach it or the same for leung sheung back in the day
5)mr.copi ..the logistics instructer.....grow even a 1/4 brain and i might be impressed:D :D
.......suck???? o.k leave your mom out of this;) and your wrong , ken chung and his group in cali have never seen me.....but my first sifu saw me as well as si gung(duh??)...and they are leung sheung family
and i did ask my friend yesterday...he says you are pulling my leg or just being deceptive
stay of the lsd and you might stop melting...and do you realise all the revelations you give us from cst are all basic skills a large number of wc people strive for or develop......

[kj]

Originally posted by byond
<snip> and i did ask my friend yesterday...he says you are pulling my leg or just being deceptive<snip>

FWIW, and in case any readers have legitimate interest or curiosity, I've seen the 10 VCD set as Urban Tea describes, and indeed they do exist.

Not sure why I'm scraping this ad hominem thread for something of objective worth ... incorrigible I guess. :(

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[byond]

what a wonderfull pee/pee contest that was...i feel refreshed as well as entertained ......lets switch gears
how about you tell me what "lim lik" means??
how about you tell me why "lim lik" wont work on your back or sitting down?? im sure im going to disagree but at least we can discuss and disagree on something worthwhile
if were going to argue lets at least argue about what the post is dealing with....and dont cop out and say you cant tell me because you would be doing me a favor...either you know the cst theory or you dont........:D

[planetwc]

Byond,

What is the name of your Leung Sheung Sifu?

His english and chinese name.

When did he study with Leung Sheung? Which years?

It is always good to connect with other instructors under him.

regards,

David Williams

[byond]

thanks for the input kj....but my friend says his sifu never authorized a 10 vcd set for sale....he has been with cst for 30+years and has no reason to fib......perhaps it is put out by the australian camp.....or its a boot leg....we know there are lots of those things going around.....;)
i miss talking kj.you are very imformative, as was the ls list ...someone got me booted from the ls list because they didnt agree with my opinion.....sad world.....at least i got through all 786 posts before being booted;)

[byond]

hey planet...
i posted on the ls list about who i learned from...and who we trace back to leung sheung...
just curious but...you do realise that ken chung is not the only group steming from leung sheung correct???

[Siu Tze]

Raving loons usually require no response, but for everyone's consideration here are a few random thoughts...

I believe this is one of the shortest sifu-student duration I've ever heard of (4 days, 1 hour and 11 mins on the outside).
"my sifu uses it incredibly well first hand....carl d" (05-20-2002 01:43 PM)
"and carl is not my sifu" (05-24-2002 02:54 PM)

If someone said, "i have never met ken" (05-24-2002 02:54 PM), then how could they make these statements?
"look at ken chung" (05-15-2002 12:18 PM) and
"ken teaches substantialy differant then other ks students"(05-23-2002 11:46 AM)

This brings to question whether any other statements are true. TST connected?

As for Chinese, TST can't be Dai Si Bak Gung or Dai Si Sook Gung (05-21-2002 12:45 PM) just because the others elders have passed away.

For someone who freely admit "o.k i cant spell worth a ****" (05-23-2002 10:34 AM). I wonder if they have heard of a spell checker? I'm pretty sure they have heard of a computer.

As for "spell good" (05-23-2002 10:34 AM), I might even suggest an English lesson or two.

In summary, I believe this might be a "mad dog barking". Someone said, "Fame is fleeting”. I believe someone's 15 minutes have been up a long time ago. They have out stayed all welcome.

[Miles Teg]

I don't know what byond said to collect so much negativity, but I can't see it.
The arguement started from a discussion about being able to use nim lik when you aren't rooted and I think we agreed that you can. So what happened after that?
Why does anyone have to prove who they learnt off?

As far as circular energy is concerned, I don't think anyone holds a monopoly on it as Dzu said. Other schools have a focus on circular energy and pressure too. After all, what CST knows and teaches is W.C therefore other people must have similar principles and excercises. From what I gather a number of other schools incorporate circular theory.
As far as visualisation goes, I am just a beginner but I don't think any one way is the only way, they are all just a means to an end-to have good structure.

How you decide to think about how good your W.C is your own philosophy and as long as your goal is to improve it doesn't matter whether you should refer to yourself as good or bad at W.C.

Other than that: Don't sweat the small stuff

[urban tea]

Beyond,

Conversation between you and I has lost its jizz.
I stopped talking about Lim Lek because you made your point and I made mine. We disagree so be it.

Everything else in your post is just mad mouthing which doesn't belong on the KFO board.

What more is there to talk about? How do you know I never met ken and know what he teaches? Beyond, you got kicked off the LS emaling list? hahaah i can see why! I have a few buddies on that list. They have fwd a few emails to me. I should have reconnized your typing style and weaponry from the beginning of this post ... heh...

What's left to talk about:

Do you want to send me 4 dollars and I'll burn you ONE of the 10 discs? Then you can look in the mirror. Wanna take the bet?

You are my friend.

[Sihing73]

Hi Guys,

I pop in to see how things are going and what was a good conversation seems to have downhill a bit. Perhaps a return to the subject and discussion of TST's circle is warranted. It really does us no good to make strawman comparisons or point to a perceived lack of skill nor integrity. How about we step back for a moment and resume discussing the subject rather than one another???

Just a suggestion.

Peace,

Dave

[S.Teebas]

but my friend says his sifu never authorized a 10 vcd set for sale

...they exist.

[planetwc]

Originally posted by byond
hey planet...
i posted on the ls list about who i learned from...and who we trace back to leung sheung...
just curious but...you do realise that ken chung is not the only group steming from leung sheung correct???

Hi Brian/byond,

Yes I know there are other Leung Sheung students out there.
I have met quite a few besides Ken. And I've had the opportunity to interview and videotape them, asking questions about what we are being taught by Ken in relation to how they all were personally taught by Leung Sheung.

I ask just to find out if there are others who I am not aware of, and to find out where they are located and if they are still teaching.

I generally ask the names as I have connections back to these other students who were with Leung Sheung at various times in his teaching career and can verify if they know who the other person is. From Bo Kin Wah, to Jack Tak Fok Ling, to Ah Dak, Ah Cheung, Siu Wong, and several more. There is enough coverage to get a sense of who someone is and how long they were with Leung Sheung.

I have come across others who have claimed association but no one has ever heard of them during the span of his teaching career.

In any case, I will go back and reread your post about which Leung Sheung teacher you were studying with. Thanks for the info.

regards,

David Williams

[CanadianBadAss]

wow, all of this because of my one little question...

Are there any vizualizations you use to help relax your shoulder?

[yuanfen]

Canadian Bad Ass- Know your body.

[byond]

sun----you have no comprehension skills either,,,,,i said "my sifu uses it well...carl d. uses it well."...if your going to use my words, than use my words ..but use all of them in the context they where used in...i never said carl was my sifu.....i had hopes to learn from him..but this may not work out..such is life...not that it is any of your buisiness.
many of the leung sheung students agree kens approach is unique to him....and i have seen footage of ken and his students ..i just havnt met him:D so i compare that to what my first sifu taught me.......is the veil of ignorance lifted yet young hopper??
why cant cst be dai si bak gun???explain....
so everything you have posted is....worthless....because of your lack of comprehension skills....and at least i can admit my faults ...can you admit the worthless glow of your words??
urban....yes young master the ls mailing list doesnot like someone who doesnt agree with them whole heartedly...grow up

dave....o.k

[urban tea]

Brian,

There's really nothing left to discuss on this thread like the moderator said.

If you don't want to buy the TST VCDs even though two other people said that they exist then you can sit there and go, " No! I don't believe it! They don't exist. WHY ! WHy would my friend lie to me! He's been with TST for 30 years. No never! He would never lie to me! Why"

You have a personality block and I know someone that can help you.

Okay anyways. You were kicked off the LSLA list because you were trying to persuade others that videos of ken should be openly traded and that ken owes the world to see his tapes or some crap like that. Then you had 20 people objecting but you couldn't understand why. You were kicked off and then you come on here saying you're good.

[byond]

urban.....this was a good post at one point...miles,teebas,yuenfan,hunt1,myself and your first post actually were discusing something....until you made a personel comment to me and its been down hill from there....because you dont have the knowledge to discuss this nor compehension to understand it, you instead wanted to argue about everything but what we were talking about. you are the only one on the post who doesnt understand nim lik....so to cover up your lack of knowledge about wing chun principles you want to talk about my lineage or try to take everything i have said out of the context it was said in
again you are wrong...the reason i was kicked of the ls list wasnt because i thought boot leg tapes of ken should be traded...what i said was that he should do a video tape series to preserve his knowledge for the future generations and to help the wc community as a whole. numerous people responded that ken doesnt owe anyone anything and his knowledge should be kept for the "inner circle"....i responded i thought ken did owe someone..and that someone was leung sheung.....we always owe our master a debt.ken is the most high profile leung sheung student and as such could get his interpretation of leungs wc preserved...i also feel we all owe the wc system.and should do our part to preserve and to pass on its knowledge.
..no one liked my opinion....and thats all it was..an opinion........so as always your wrong....at least you are consistant.

teebas----i believe you....im not saying they dont exist...what im saying is what my friend said ..and that is the only authoized footage that will be for sale is a 2 vcd set that is not out yet...that doesnt mean that there isnt footage being sold internally in the school.....i didnt ask that question, i didnt get specific about public or private material
.....perhaps there are vcds not available to the public like ken chung has...or perhaps there are bootlegs...im sure the australian camp does have such a thing . im sure you understand why i didnt take urbans word for it.....he doesnt even have a basic understanding of the cst principles and yet he studies with a 20 +year student, has been to all the main school branchs and has touched hands with cst..that does not instill me with confidence....and the few things he said in his posts that made complete sence were things that are contained in most ving tsun.....and just because you can repeat something like a parret doesnt mean you have any comprehension of it

si hing---well i tried getting back on topic in my post thats after kj's....but urban doesnt want to discuss the real issues:D

[urban tea]

Brian

There's nothing more to discuss. You are great, you are correct. That is correct, you are right.

-urban tea.

[RevTemerity]

Originally posted by byond
.....perhaps there are vcds not available to the public like ken chung has...

Just to set the record straight, there are no VCDs of Ken Chung, either held privately nor available publically, as implied by Brian's statement above. The best we have are personal video tapes we have each individually taken during instruction that are for our own personal use. While I am aware of some people trading tapes of Ken doing various things, we haven't, as of yet, put anything together. Trust me when I say the best of our efforts is amateurish, at best, and I'm not sure what people would get out of them.

Like I said, I just wanted to set the record straight on this one account.

[reneritchie]

If we accept the premise that a person has a responsibility to Wing Chun Kuen, is that responsibility better served by taping a snapshot of themselves which can be blown far and wide, perhaps helping some and confusing others, perhaps adding clarity or perhaps just increasing the noise, or is that responsibility better served by teaching a handful of top-notch students who will then teach a handful of their own one day, and so on?

Rgds,

RR

[urban tea]

I'm confused rene!! Was that a long run-on sentence!?? hehe

[byond]

o.k. rev ..let me set the record straight as well....i wasnt suggesting there was a ken chung vcd...what i was suggesting is there is footage , tapes of seminars and lessons circulated internaly in the family..and honestly im not implying there is footage, im saying there is footage ,which i think you agree with me ,you just thought i was saying there was a vcd format..which i can see why you thought that do to my sentence structure

rene....you flirt with elitism my friend...elitism ends in entropy...i think i know your character pretty well and i reliase thats not what you are saying, but im sure you realise that many of the wc families out there are elitist and truly believe they have the real wc and that they should keep it for them and there's...i understand what you are saying...and obviously i dont want wc to become anymore watered down then it is....but you could say the same thing about your book yks as well as your co book complete wc....they have confused ....so does that mean you shouldnt have done the documentation?? what about the benifits?? what about all the wc practitioners who were introduced to new(to them) families of wc?? your book had that effect on me....i was a kid in a candy shop..
there arent many good books or videos out there...by good , my opinion is there is no focus on wc principles...just the external form....this may confuse....but with books and videos that have indepth explanation ..i truly believe it will help and clairify not confuse. and if yks hadnt documented and broken down his understanding of wc , the wc you inherited may not be what it is and or it would have taken twice the time to understand something...which from my understanding yks/sn wc has very indepth explanation which is to the benifit of the student.
now we can say ,,o.k quality control...and than we become the person in control, us or our organization controls who reads are documentation...or only the guy who believes our whole story can learn our wc...and than of cource that leads to making $.....
my opinion is the wc clan needs to share openly with one another , just like the wc families did back in the day. there will always be confusion do to lack of comprehension. so the confusion out there already isnt going to radicaly increase ...but hopefully the clairity will increase.....with understanding one another fear will break down and perhaps we can improve the quality of wc in the world as a whole

[reneritchie]

UT - I'm not writing prose, but something more akin to dialog (my own!) and the flavor of dialog lends itself to run-ons, fragments, all manner of other faux-pas ;)

Brain - You're right, My question was neutral and personally I see good and bad points to both views. To play devil's advocate, however, what's wrong with elitism? Has the recent trend that disdains achievement and favors mediocrity resulted in a bettering or worsening of our society? When we make the demominators more common, how can we ensure the highest rather than end up with the lowest? How do we both preserve and protect the art?

BTW- On the Red Junks, its said the elders worked together. After that, succeeding generations, while still friendly and social on occasions, sound like they were almost paranoid about others learning their techniques. They wouldn't show each other anything, and wouldn't discuss WCK with each other (and didn't even like their students to practice together as each thought the other would "steal" their kung fu).

Rgds,

RR

[zerozero]

byond, you talk a great game... all about elitism, entropy, debt, what the "wc clan" should and shouldn't do...

stop worrying so much about everyone else and just worry about your own hands. do you even train in wing chun or do you train only in that unique 21st century style of "internet wing chun?"

if so, who is your teacher? where are you located so i can try out your hands?

[byond]

zero.....stop worrying about what im saying....im allowed an opinion just like everyone else in the world...and i will voice my opinion anywhere i feel like.... i notice you have the internet wc going yourself...instead of telling me who your sifu is and where you are for me to visit or just out right challenging me , you ask me who i am...which who i am is no secret..i am not anonymous like most of the posters are..............brian

[byond]

hey ren....:D ...nice devil work....i understand and agree that to protect is as important as preserveing....very good food for thought.....i think whats happened in the past is that $ is needed to fund projects like this. so due to lack of $, shortcuts are taken. also many people have old school mentality and dont want to share there explanations. and it seems that the few groups that have $ to fund projects end up making things self serving...self promotion so they reap the benifits of there "investment".
elitism doesnt normaly work to bring a higher standard to the non elite..thats the problem...the rich get richer kinda thing....if more groups and individuals worked at education instead of marketing , walls might break down. disdain for achievment?? only if its someone elses achiement:D
i think we need a middle ground. disciples learn the whole system from there sifu...this is protecting the art. this should follow the same strict code as it always has..which is up to the individual master to enforce. but the knowledge needs to be preserved as well...which than the future generations have the historical information to compare to what they are learning ...as well as in generral increasing the knowledge and hopefully the understanding out there in the community...........
or not.....i think im reconsidering my stand point:D :D

[reneritchie]

Brian,

Many good points. I'm not sure there's an absolutely right choice, just a pendulum that will swing too far both ways at times.

Rgds,

RR

[Siu Tze]

wuf


Originally posted by reneritchie
If we accept the premise that a person has a responsibility to Wing Chun Kuen, is that responsibility better served by taping a snapshot of themselves which can be blown far and wide, perhaps helping some and confusing others, perhaps adding clarity or perhaps just increasing the noise, or is that responsibility better served by teaching a handful of top-notch students who will then teach a handful of their own one day, and so on?

Rgds,

RR


Regardless of the sentence structure and playing devil's advocate, this sentiment rings true for me.

If you learned art from a true master would you turn around and cash in on cheap knock offs? If you believe the art is only truly transmittable by touch, then might a video be considered pure vanity?

It is solely up to the individual to decide what they owe and how they owe it. Opinion or not, this is never up to a third party.

If you strongly believe that an art or skill is worth preserving you can always take it in your own hands.

"Do more. Talk less"