Arm Brands

[tjmitch]

Hi Guys... we all have heard the story of the shaolin branding thier arms with the dragon and tiger, but what I am wodering is are there any photographs of this? Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks

[shaolinboxer]

I have never seen one, and I looked quite hard during my time at NYU as an east asian studies major.

Anyone else ever have any luck?

Perhaps it has something to do with this ritual pre-dating the invention of the camera.

[tjmitch]

I believe that the camera dates around 184-45. There are many photos from the peroid of the american civil war. The boxer rebellion in China ( I think that is when the temple was burned) wasnt until 1900ish so it seems to me that there must be a photo somewhere, unless this just falls under the commonly beleved myth catagory.

[MaFuYee]

oh snap! shaolin boxer, you studied wu mui?
i went to chau's for a short while. (one summer.)
wu mui rocks!

out of curiosity, do you think chau's death may have had something to do with his frequent iron body demonstrations? - that can't be good for you.

- you don't have to answer that if you don't want to. - i just happen to know an herbalist that is also a wu mui sifu, (good friends with chau) who often warned him against that sort of practice.

[Water Dragon]

On a related note, we brand in our Fraternity. No, I haven't done it myself but I have helped hold people down (You need about 3 people to keep the arm still or you'll jerk it on reflex.

It sizzles AND it stinks. Leaves a helluva scar too. I can tell you that if theShaolin really did do it, it didn't look all nice and pretty afterwards.

[dwid]

I was about to say the same thing. If you look historically at branding practices in general, there is a lot of evidence out there on how rough a process branding is. There is no way there could be any detail in the designs at all. Basically, if this was done, it probably would have been hard to tell afterwards what the brands were supposed to be. Branding simply doesn't lend itself to precision.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, we use 1 greek letter, the Lambda. Looks like an A with no line through the middle. A lot of them come out nice, but you have to keeping picking the scab off so that it'll heal correctly.

[shaolinboxer]

MaFuYee..

In what year did you study? I lived at that school for one summer...

Chau had serioud health problems. While I was training there his skin gradually became spotted, and his eye sight got worse and worse, and he had problems with fluid in his lungs. He did not go to a western doctor, but chose to be treated with acupuncture. It failed. I had already left the school when he passed away...I found out when I ran into an old training buddy.

Really, it was dai si hing (Lawrence) who was my greatest teacher there. Remember his lecture (he had one lecture he used to use over and over)...?

"Martial arts is about the truth. Truth here, truth out there. Pick up this sword and feel it...that's the truth...."

[MaFuYee]

i believe it was the summer of '95(?)
most of the time i was taught by this guy named edgar, (can't remember his last name.) nice guy.
but, mainly i remember this cute chick that was visiting from milan, for the summer. ;) (if that helps put a time reference on it.)

if i recall, i think i remember sifu chau talking about how his teacher also had hella bad eyesight. - i assumed it was just from age. - could it possibly have been otherwise?

i remember reading about a certain style of white crane kung fu that incorporated a certain type of "shaking" energy, that would sometimes lead to negative side effects, * sometimes including psychosis. - that always made me wary of overdoing the chi gung exercise where you put your foot up on the rail, and put your arms up, and tense them up... do you know which exercise i'm talking about?

anyway, it's too bad he died so young. - i really liked the style.

[MaFuYee]

oh yeah... i remember larry.
he was with chau since his days on grand street.

[Taomonkey]

My teachers teacher told us that the marks of the dragon and tiger were on the pot but they didn't leave tatoo like designs on the arm, you just got burned.

[tjmitch]

HELP!!! MY THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED!!:D I am just interested if there is any photographic evidence of this practice, or is it a fable.

[norther practitioner]

From most things I have heard, this is just a myth, there was never any branding done at Shaolin. But who knows, the legends, myths, and history overlap and intertwine sometimes.

[Hai_To]

I was always under the impression that this was a myth too. Especially when Shaolin became a hotbed of anti-Qing sentiment. Why advertise that you are rebellious by branding yourself? It doesn't make sense. But, then again, not a whole lot of stuff that people do makes a whole lot of sense.

[TenTigers]

kinda like the jews tattooing themselves. doubtful,. I love seeing guys at tournaments walking around with tattoos of dragon and tiger on thei forearms. When I spot one, I can't help walking up and saying,"Oh Man, the tiger goes on the RIGHT side, and the dragon goes on the LEFT. You got them all backwards!" then I wait about an hour and then tell them I was only joking. funny thing, they usually don't really laugh. hehehehehehehehe

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Noticed the reference to Chaus' martial arts and figured I would mention that I train there under Sifu Chung Kwok Chow. He rents space there and teaches Wing Chun. Anyhow, e-mail me if you wish, about the possibility of getting together sometime. I was trying to make it up there once a week but am recovering from an injury. It may be a few weeks before I can get back up. Anyhow let me know if you are interested.

sihing73@juno.com

Peace,

Dave

[MaFuYee]

hey man, the wushu classes there probably have much better lookin chicks.

[David Jamieson]

This legend comes from a time preceding the later history of Shaolin Temple.

As there are no masters who were monks at Shaolin alive who bear the brands and there is not much photographic evidence if any at all of the practice from the late 1800's when the camera was being used widely it is hard to say whether or not this really occured.

It certainly doesn't today. Who can say, Shaolin changed many times over more than 1000 years. It certainly changed after Bodidharma got there and it changed again when he left while Chan and Kung Fu grew there.

The temple had several apexes in it's history as it had serious setbacks as well. Much of the written material is spread far and wide or simply burned during the turmoil of just the last 60- 80 years or so following the last dynasty, through the revolution and into the communist state it is now.

Who knows?

It is said that those who left the temple were "priests" and they were sent into the world to help others learn buddhism and practice it. (not the kung fu, the buddhism :D ) They were no longer "monks" once they left the temple for good.

Priests now identify themselves in all manner of garb. The buddhists who took a vow of chastity actually branded the 9 dots on their foreheads. There are still some buddhists who were the brands. Most these days just paint the dots on their heads.

The branding is a form of showing ones inner strength, fortitude and of course strong belief in the meanings attached to those rituals which were regarded as "sacred".

People who "tatoo" or "brand" or "pierce" now are doing it more for the sake of "cool chic", fashion or to find their own identity in the practice of artification of the self. To each their own.

Not many folks are sailing the seven seas intall ships anymore and i certainly wouldn't cut my hair like my granpa. Times change and rituals change with the times according to the paradigm of the day.

peace