practicing forms

[yutyeesam]

what are some strategies on practicing forms? On TMW videos he does what is called Walk Through Pace, where he does the form slowly and blocky-like, step by step; and then Full speed and power.

I've seen several other ways, such as holding the stance for each movement for a few seconds...and also doing it slow, but with flow like in tai chi.

Mental stuff is another issue: is it best to always visualize the application of the form when doing it? Sometimes people say they don't think of anything at all and let the form happen.

Are there other ways of practicing, and where/how to govern the mind during practice?

thanks!
123

[CLFNole]

123:

This is a good question becuase over the years I have seen that a lot of students have the wrong idea of what practicing is. Many students think of practicing as going through the form as fast as you can. Others a couple of times and thats enough.

Remember 1st and foremost your form is only as good as its weakest section. If 1 small section is bad than the form is not what it could be.

For myself and many of my kung fu brothers, we would practice forms together at a slow to medium pace. Some days working on hold stances to build strength other days working on overall flow. After warming up with this pace for a number of times we would practice forms individually at normal speed. When doing forms you should try not to think to much so that the form becomes natural.

Practicing alone, I like to go over the form a couple of times slow then a couple of times fast and then go back and break the form down and practice various sections of the form. Most importantly the ones that give you trouble.

The techniques from the forms are practiced a bit differently since you do not fight the same way you do the form. Fighting is a bit more upright and some of the long circular motions are shortened for effectiveness. Practicing the forms we emphasis over-extending a bit to strech the muscles and thus create greater strength.

Hope this helps, again just my opinion.

Peace.

[yutyeesam]

CLFNole:
THanks for the insights. Here's a follow up regarding forms and application.

As you mentioned, real fighting and form movements aren't always part of the same continuum. However, as useless as some movements' application might be, is it still good to know and visualize that useless application during practice?

Here's the thing. In one school's Choy Lay Fut instructional video, the sifu breaks down every single movement and shows a setof possible applications for each one. Now most of these applications are as effective in real combat as ballroom dancing..BUT, isn't it good to know (and maybe even practice) what is happening, so that you can give stronger intent (to use Taiji terms) to the moves?

I agree with you on the full speed and power stuff. Too much of an emphasis on that (probably because of tournaments).

123

[CLFNole]

123:

I agree with you 100%. Fortunately I was able to learn a good deal all of the form applications that I have learned. I will admit a number would be rather ineffective in a real situation, however it is good to know when you teach it. Remember all of the forms were created by men and no man is perfect hence no technique is perfect.

Peace.

[yutyeesam]

CLFNole,
What is your view on Chinese martial arts tournaments? I've been to one, and it felt like more of a networking conference/business meeting, than anything else. Apparently, if you want to write an article for a KF mag or just some exposure, this is the way.

That's all fine and stuff, but I think maybe there is becoming more and more of an emphasis on this. What do you think?

123

[CLFNole]

123:

Your observations are right on. A lot of people feel if they can get published it gives them credibiity and fame. If you read most articles today they lack real informative information. Are you ever really enlightened about anything.

I used to like tournaments and competed in many. But as I used to say with one of my kung fu brothers they are more like "star trek conventions" now than anything else. I have judged at the last few tournaments I have been at and noticed that a lot of the top sifus don't like or don't want to judge. This is partly what is wrong with the tourney scene. Why not have the most qualified people judge, especially for the advanced divisions.

One thing you have to realize with tournaments is that they are very political. You have to rely on judgement of others who don't know or may not like your style in some cases. Too me there is never a clear cut winner different people have different opinions on what is good and what isn't. Its kind of like figure skating to some extent, there is no clear cut winner on the field like in other sports where you actually beat your opponent.

Its the best we currently have so you either grin and bear it or don't go. Personally I prefer to grin and bare it because they are good chinese kung fu for the most part.

Peace

[No_Know]

What are some useless applications?

The applications are not necessarilly the only ones. If you don't see others, keep the one (s) you were given. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that it doesn't actually make sense.

Freeze-frame forming is to learn the movementsof the form and their order. But each part of a form has a predefined way it's to be. Governed by the Style/School/System. Different speeds, different powers, different timings...all mixed in and at particular places. Until you do these for that particular form, you should practice (always getting something good. But, not necessarily everything right). When you have everything in the right places, you should practice. Perhaps some-such.

[RAIN]

i like separate my forms in sections and work diferent sections . because some sections are more dificult . others sections are in the another forms and i am familiarized with them .
is really cool make the forms with partners , but i feel that i advance more in my trinning when make my forms alone .

[Ao Qin]

123,

In my style, there are often movements that seem really bizarre for fighting with - especially when I see videos of "masters" showing the application - usually a simple block / strike type of scenario. For instance, someone throws a straight punch, and you "hit him with a backfist, then slash to his arm".

Discouraging, until you see a real master laugh, and show you what the movement's real potential is. A Chung Choi is a Chung Choi, but many other movements are actually complex cum nah / take down manouvers, that if your Sifu doesn't show you, you would never have the imagination to figure it out.

In the above example (one that I was recently shown), the movement was to quickly free oneself from a grab, reverse the grab, and lock the arm with an armbar - a backfist is NOT always a backfist!

Everytime I think I know something, I am proved wrong - that is the beauty, mystery, and depth of authentic, traditional martial-arts!

[mantis108]

Execellent post. Ao Qin :)

Mantis108

[EAZ]

I would just like to add that I was once told that I had to do every form "10,000" times. At first I said this is an exaggeration, a figure of speech like 10,000 often is in Chinese culture. I was told no no really do it that many times.

Then one day having nothing to do (I was young then sigh), I decided for the heck of it to do the math and count how many minutes this would make, in total, for all the forms I had to know. The result was astronomical (though technically possible). Again I was told that it was 10,000.

Anyways, I finally figured out that he included forms done in the mind, through visualisation: see yourself doing the form, feel it. Combined with physical practice, the results are augmented.

I recall somewhere a thread on the subject of the placebo effect of doing forms this way, and the proven amelioration of our practice through this type of method.

Anyways, that is my contribution.

All the best.

EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

anything circular can be considered kum na sau skills if you understand small and large circles.

As long as you can use it effectively its a good technique i say!

my 2 cents worth!:D

[nospam]

It is important to know why or what it is you want to get out of your form's practise.

Plus, gung fu - MAs - is progressive in nature. So what the beginner, intermediate, to advanced practitioner will be focusing on will differ.

I always like to have my form's practise lead to perfecting my style when fighting. This of course means that I take from my forms what I take to the fight. If I practise 40 different techniques in my fist patterns and only use 4-6 in fighting - how useless is that.

So my basic strategy when practising my fist pattern ability - and I do, is to always take away something to add to my fighting ability. If I do this properly, then all the attributes I feel or am told I need to have or develop in a fight, I need to have and/or develop in my fist patterns. There can not be seperation. If there is, then pump up the volume and everybody Wang Chung tonight.

nospam.
:cool: