Boxing's penetrating power

[Merryprankster]

One of the things I've started to notice is that decent boxers--by decent, I'm talking about a slightly above average amateur boxer--have penetrating power. It does more than hurt. When they go to the body, it feels almost like you're going to get queasy and nauseous, and if it hits you square on, that's EXACTLY what happens.

I have to say that it takes a little time to develop this kind of punch--but only about two or three months of steady training. The heavy bag is a beautiful tool for this--when your punch lands and STOPS like it hit a brick wall and the bag doesn't move a bit, that's the ticket to your opponent wishing he were somewhere else.

Nothing special about it--good structure+relaxation=queasy opponent.

[red5angel]

Similar to ocncepts in Wing Chun as well. An example of that deep, penetrating power that may have inspired the idea of Dim Mak.I was demonstrated on by someone who ha sthe ability to make you feel it deep. I crossed my arms in front of me, he put his fist against my arms and punched forward. I felt it hit my spine!

MP - Do you think good boxers can turn this "on or off"?

[Water Dragon]

Uhhh dude, you just described a Gong Fu punch.

[Merryprankster]

Water--I know--fits in nicely with my viewpoint that we just like to all THINK we're doing something radically different than the next guy.

Red- Yes, you can turn it on and off--I can use that same punch without that effect if I'm using it to set up for something else.

[Water Dragon]

Well, we are doing something different, just not radically.

[red5angel]

MP - this sounds eerily like a certain thread in the wing chun forum :)

I would have to agree, I think that although it may seem that at first we are doing drastically different things we are really doing our own versions of the same things. You dont need Chinese mysticism to be able to strike deeply, thats for sure, I think they just recognized something and paid it more attention, in general, then western arts.

[Merryprankster]

Water--I agree with that assessment too.

red--Shocking, isn't it? And I don't think that western arts pay any less attention to it--they use different terminology and have different tools for development, but less attention? Nah

Different methodology. Good is good--bad is bad :)

[red5angel]

I dont have too much experience training in a western art so I was assuming that they did not speak a whole lot about those sorts of things, but you know what they say about assuming! ;)

[Merryprankster]

Well Red--That's because you don't talk about it much in boxing. You hit things a lot and figure out what's best for you along with your coach's input.

There's not so much "your feet go HERE, your hands go like THIS." I don't think that constitutes less insight, just less extrapolation--an example might be that we discovered my body shots were much harder than my shots to the head for some reason, did some fooling around, and figured out that I need to fight out of a deeper stance. Some other people that doesn't work for, etc. Is it WRONG? Nope, just mine. :) I would say the insight was "You hit harder when your stance is lower, but Patrick doesn't." Extrapolation might be talking it to death, when "who cares why?" is probably just fine. ;)

[shaolinboxer]

I don't use any strikes I can't lay into a heavy bag.

[Black Jack]

The legendary boxer Jack Dempesy used a power generation method like the old bare knuckle boxers of the 19th century, it was called the drop step, he used it with his pre-emptive jab to great success and also taught it to the Coast Guard as there WWII h2h close combat instructor, other military cqc men of the ear also took it up like Rex Applegate and so forth.

19th century bare knuckle boxing looks a lot like Hsing-I in the way it uses stomps and forward pressure to achieve power, not everybody mind you as people develop there own approaches, but it was there, Mendoza was more of a circular fighter, he was the inventor of the "scientific" school of boxing as well as bringing boxing to Ireland.

Cheers

[fa_jing]

Well, this is how I learned to hit hard. First, I thought I had a strong punch, a decent one at least. Then, I saw my Sifu rocking the heavy bag hard. BOOM! BOOM! That was the point where I realized I wasn't hitting hard enough.
So, I got a heavy bag, practiced for a while, and figured out what I needed to do to generate the force.
Wasn't all that difficult! I still can't hit quite as hard as Sifu (he's a lot stronger anyway) but my best punch is as powerful as his average punch. I mean, I can go BOOM!, while he can go BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM!

Using the body mechanics and relaxation-until-the-point-of-contact instruction I got through Kung Fu, was beneficial. No real secrets, though.

-FJ

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by fa_jing


Using the body mechanics and relaxation-until-the-point-of-contact instruction I got through Kung Fu, was beneficial. No real secrets, though.

-FJ

Excellant example here. I would describe my punch as above except that I do not tense, even at the point of contact. I stay relaxed and the compression causes the "tension" for me.

Same but different.

[Dark Knight]

My power comes from the ground up, It starts like water going through a hose transfering the power through the hip-shoulders-elbow to the hand. In power hitters you can see the body rotation. I relax letting it flow through each body part until it hits.

[red5angel]

Waterdragon - I am not sure I understand what you are saying. There is not tension in you punch at all? It would seem to me unless you were snapping a back hand or something that you would have to tense at the moment of impact?

[fa_jing]

Well, I wouldn't say I tense up, more like I drive the punch through, aiming at a point well past the surface of the bag. The difference being that I am not actually contracting any antagonistic or irrelavent muscle groups. Only some slight tension in the stablizing muscles such as the wrist, and of course in the muscles doing the driving through.

I second the question, how do you generate force while remaining completely relaxed? Wait, I think I misread your point, you said that the compression causes your muscle contraction. I think I got it now.

Perhaps same, definitely differently stated.

To continue the discussion, how does Chi (intention) play into your strike? I'd say the intention and exhalation is a key to increasing the power. Mental focus, if you will.

-FJ

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by fa_jing

I second the question, how do you generate force while remaining completely relaxed? Wait, I think I misread your point, you said that the compression causes your muscle contraction. I think I got it now.

-FJ

Remember when we were swapping forms and I said to pay attention to what I was doing with my hip joints? If you caught how it was the momentum of my waist that made my arms move, that's what I mean by completely relaxed.

Otherwise, I can show you next week. It's not as odd as it sounds.

[Merryprankster]

Red,

What WD is talking about is the difference between punching somebody and hitting them hard enough that it makes them think twice or a third time, (or not at all for a bit:)) about doing what they are doing--and I understand exactly what he's talking about--you're just doing your thing and BOOM you land a shot--it takes almost no effort, and the power of the punch is from your alignment from the floor to the hand.

[Water Dragon]

YES!!!!

In fact, when I learned to punch, they made me stand in front of the bag in the "end position" for the punch. Then they would pull the bag back and let it swing into my fist while I stayed relaxed. For awhile, I got popped out. After a few weeks, I didn't move at all. Then I was allowed to start punching, but slowly at first...

[Kumkuat]

striking while relaxed. Well, imagine a water hose, now run some high pressure water through it. Bam, there you go; a somewhat okay analogy on what striking while relaxed is like. You could say that the hose is your arm or whatever and the water is qi or something.

[Merryprankster]

WD---

Yup. That's what I mean though, by just different methodology. Same/same end result, but in boxing, you just beat around the heavy bag and it provides instant feedback to you. Why? Because you are told from day one that your goal is to hit the heavy bag "so hard," that it doesn't swing around, and that power and speed come from relaxation and proper technique. Then you go hit the bags and the mitts until you get it right--then you do it some more till you get it right more often :). Your trainer yells at you a little bit (in a reasonably nice way), and helps you try to figure some stuff out, but it's the constant repetition and observation of what you're doing that pays off the dividends. I realize that happens at most schools anyway, BUT...

There's much less of the sort of thing that you described, where we break things down specifically and talk about them at any length. Instruction consists largely of short phrases muttered at you while you're hitting the focus mitts, etc. Stancework is all about movement and not crossing the feet and figuring out where you reach that optimum mix of power and mobility, etc.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
YES!!!!

In fact, when I learned to punch, they made me stand in front of the bag in the "end position" for the punch. Then they would pull the bag back and let it swing into my fist while I stayed relaxed. For awhile, I got popped out. After a few weeks, I didn't move at all. Then I was allowed to start punching, but slowly at first...


?????????????????????????????????

[Leonidas]

".......Because you are told from day one that your goal is to hit the heavy bag "so hard," that it doesn't swing around".

Cool, so boxers can fa-jing !?!?

[Merryprankster]

Leonidas--

In a word, yes.

This is something that I and some others have been trying to whack people in the head with since we got here :)

But everybody (Horrible Generalization Coming Up!!!) Wants to feel like they're special and that they do something nobody else does. As though there is some "real difference," in the biomechanics of what they do, when comparing apples to apples.

It's crap. There are different approaches to doing the same thing, and some people prefer one approach over the other.

[David Jamieson]

Dempsey could hit so hard that a bout between him and Luis Firpo has been noted as the most exciting and dynamic boxing match ever held.

I was looking at a photo from that fight and Firpo had just knocked Dempsey clean out of the ring... through the ropes.

He was mad at Dempsey for putting him down 7 times in the first round. Dempsey won the fight after some friends through him back in the ring.

To strike someone hard enough to lift them through the air...

man, that is some whack power generation! :D you gotta hand it to firpo for pulling that one on dempsey.

peace

[Black Jack]

Kung Lek,

Yeah, Dempsey was one of a kind, thats for sure:)

I very much agree with MerryPrankster on this one, people get to caught up in names, mythos and styles, when in the end what they are doing may be very similar to the next guy, there are only so many ways to develop good power, control, hurt, maim and kill your fellow humans, the training methods and principles to get there may be very different, the paths may be different, but the results are often the same, good information is worldwide and not "always"confined to one system.

Take the Dempsey drop step, Hsing-I has it, White Eyebrow has it, Wing Chun has it, JKD uses it, I am certain many other styles around the globe use the principle as well to some degree or another, the main point being to get your full weight behind the strike.

Its the same for many aspects of combat, take trapping, the Fillipinos have been doing trapping for ever, they are masters of it, there are hundreds of flow and energy drills made just for this purpose, trapping is a age old concept, grab and hit, it came around long before Bruce Lee started talking about Wing Chun.

Trapping is just another age-old tool that everybody has to some degree or another, one of many examples, examples that just use different names.

[David Jamieson]

MerryPrankster - Man I just made the connection with your screen name. hahahahahaha.

So you like Kesey?

BlackJack- You know, someone started giving me the gears because I said that my inspiration to start training in Martial Arts was Mohammed Ali. Well, he still was the guy who made me sit up and take notice and get my arse down to the Y for some boxing lessons which eventually led to Kung Fu training.

Boxing rules but it doesn't include kicks, throws, grabs, hold and releases and all the other stuff you will find in Kung Fu training.

I truly do believe that tere really isn't anything new under the sun, but I also believe that the Chinese had the best systems and methods of training fighters. The chinese martial arts were codified (written down and explained) long before many other martial arts. They studied them ad nauseum with some folks doing nothing but for their entire lives.

I do not believe that an art makes a man, but rather that a man expresses what he has made his art. Learn the tools and then create with them. All the very best teachers I have had in my life be it Painting or Kung fu have told me that the key to mastery is the transcendance of technique. But that doesn't mean you don't have to do the hard work of learning technique.

When I was nearing the end of me fine arts apprenticeship, I was asked if I remembered everything I was taught. I said I did. I was then told to forget it all. :D

and now, back to mumbo jumbo...

peace

[Black Jack]

Kung Lek,

Very fair, your post is a good example of the difference between someone who takes a look at the big picture, you used your opinion-stated as such-instead of the allmighty approach of its so because its so nonsense-there is nothing wrong with an opinion, its all personal feeling and in my book thats ok-doky.

I may not agree on one or two issues of that post, I bet you could guess what they ;) , but I also believe its the man and not the style, IMHO I don't even really believe in styles, no one owns the concepts of survival, it's a very outdated outlook.

Cheers,

[Merryprankster]

Kung---Maybe just a little.

Anyone need some Kool-Aid and a busride? Neal's got the wheel....

[chingei]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
YES!!!!

In fact, when I learned to punch, they made me stand in front of the bag in the "end position" for the punch. Then they would pull the bag back and let it swing into my fist while I stayed relaxed. For awhile, I got popped out. After a few weeks, I didn't move at all. Then I was allowed to start punching, but slowly at first...


It must have been a real ***** for you to learn how to play the piano!

[LEGEND]

If u hit the heavy bag...try to make it fold around your hands, elbows or shins. Most of the ONE TIMERs that show up makes me laugh when they hit the back and it flys backward...they're pushing it instead of hitting it.

[Water Dragon]

What's even funnier is how they take it as proof that they hit harder than you do...

Well, until the gloves come on anyway :D

[Nichiren]

I think timing and technique are just as important as power! An example; When a good boxer lands a shot to the body it is often just after the opponent has thrown a punch and starts to suck in air = timing, if it is e.g. an uppercut it is thouroughly twisted and the power from the hip is channeled through the fist = technique.

/May the force be with you....

[Merryprankster]

Well, YEAH! :)

[Khun Kao Charuad]

I don't have any real insights to add, as everyone has already stated the same things I would. I just wanted to chime in and say that this is a really excellent thread!

Khun Kao

[red5angel]

Now I got you crazy boxer guys! :) No really I understand what you are talking about now Waterdragon. Relaxed power.....

As for boxing, if someones giving you guys grief, I say have em put some gloves on and get em into the ring with you!

[JusticeZero]

Chingei:
It made sense to me, I often see beginners overcommitting their attacks and either relying on hitting a target, or relying on not hitting a target. The structure has to be well enough set that it won't fail on impact or dodge.

[fa_jing]

Well, I met up with WaterDragon and he showed me his punching power. I'd say he was relaxed, and the energy felt different from what I'm used to. He was also able to show me a couple different types of energy generation, which felt different from one another when he hit my hand. I don't know if he actually tensed his muscles or not, I definitely didn't see anything and the overall motion was smooth, relaxed, and powerful.
So I'd say there is more than one way to throw a punch.

-FJ

[Shooter]

Leonidas wrote:

Cool, so boxers can fa-jing !?!?


Merryprankster replied:

Leonidas--

In a word, yes.

This is something that I and some others have been trying to whack people in the head with since we got here



Much the same as my having to make you, Black Jack and the other legends here understand that Tai Chi contains ground-work in its fast-wrestling since I got here. Or that Tai Chi is as well suited for the MMA arena as anything you all play at.

It's all Tai Chi...

[Black Jack]

Dude,

Did you get you ****** stuck in a pickle jar or something this morning?

You might be getting me confused with somebody else here, in fact I am sure you are getting me confused with Merry Prankster, I have never asked you to prove to me that Tai Chi has ground grappling in it, I did once "ask" if you incorporated Catch Wrestling or any other grappling methodologies into your school to heighten your Tai Chi Ch'uan ground grappling program, I think it was brought up by the fact that you compete in grappling events, thus my one question.

I do happen to remeber that whenever somebody did ask you a direct question on Tai Chi grappling you didn't ever answer them on that specific question.

Cheers

[Shooter]

No confusion here...

I remember. You don't. No big deal.

[Black Jack]

It's no big deal to me, but I think I would remeber something like that.

We have had posts in the past, but I don't believe I ever asked you to prove that to me, to show me the codified source or something.

Do you have the post, or know where the post is, I am really curious to see if I asked you for proof of your claims, I tend not to get involved with the technical aspects of the ground fighting threads, I do remeber a post where you had to defend yourself against a few posters at once, but aside from my one question, I would be curious to see how I fit into that, since my name was brought up and all.

Cheers

[Merryprankster]

Much the same as my having to make you, Black Jack and the other legends here understand that Tai Chi contains ground-work in its fast-wrestling since I got here. Or that Tai Chi is as well suited for the MMA arena as anything you all play at.

Shooter--don't put words in my mouth.

I am fine with Tai Chi as a fighting system, and never claimed it was ineffective or any of that. I've also never said "Tai Chi doesn't have this or that or the other." It's not my place since I've never done Tai Chi.

All I ever took issue with was your suggestion that "It's all Tai Chi," without a frame of reference, is an appropriate statement. I contend that the statement is meaningless unless you provide said frame of reference, and you have continued to refuse to provide the necessary info, to whit: That this is a PERSONAL understanding of the way things are, or that "It's all Tai Chi is a universal truth, and if you don't understand it that way, you're missing the boat."

These are two entirely seperate issues and I'll thank you not to mix them. You can coach excellent fighters, and have a wonderful understanding of your system and the fighting principles involved, and, as you have proved, still have a miserable grasp of rhetoric.

Of course, since you're so intent on reading into what I say, I suppose that distinction is lost on you.

Good luck to Jeremiah Cram, and I continue to wish your gym success.