Internal Martial Artist wins Jiu Jitsu tournament

[NorthernMantis]

Sorry to take this from you Phantom Menace but I thought it deserved some spot light in the main forum for all trolls and others alike to see.


Tim Cartmell won his first ever brown belt fight in the West Coast biggest Jiu Jitsu tournament, the Copa Pacifica.

more info on it can be seen here

http://www.cleberjiujitsu.com/events.html
http://www.onthemat.com/copa-four-2000.html

Take that Ralek:D

[Kumkuat]

yeah but he probably used bjj to win, not taiji, bagua or whatever.

[rubthebuddha]

check the guy's computer, and he probably still has the gracie how-to in the cd-rom drive.

[NorthernMantis]

lol:D

[Mumbles]

Did he use the Shaolin triangle choke or the Wutang heelhook? :)

[Shin]

Two things:

a) Tim does BJJ, so he did not win it as an internal martial artist. Or, alternately, if you buy into some of the weirder definitions I have seen shen wu throwing around, all BJJ is internal...

b) To quote a friend... Tim has 25 years of experience in Martial arts. So he gets in a ring and tosses around a few guys with 1/10 the experience he has. Big deal.

[dre]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It looks like BJJ'ers don't likie losing to CMA. It must be their inferior Martial art. LOL!

Mouahahahah. Finally a victory for freedom, democracy and CMA. :) :)

[Kristoffer]

uh, yeah great news guys but where exactly does it mention he used internal martial arts to win?? :confused: Still, good for you :rolleyes:

[Ralek]

Tim cartmell is a brown belt in BJJ. He has been training BJJ for years.

About 75% of all the people in BJJ come from other styles. I myself come from shotokan karate. Do any of those people use their karate or kung fu in a BJJ tournament? No, they use BJJ. There are no strikes allowed in a sport BJJ tournament. So i'm guessing he used BJJ.

[Ralek]

Using this logic 95% of BJJ tournament champions are karate and muay thai people. Ask any BJJ person what styles he knows and he probably came from boxing, karate, wrestling, or somewhere.

People who are not already martial artists usually do not know what BJJ is and are not interested in it. BJJ is a higher level style that people convert to when they realize the limitations of their original style.

[NorthernMantis]

Ralek, where were you when Tinaman was here? Tinman says karatee is the ultimate martial art and is far superior to bjj what do you say to that?

[Braden]

If you're curious as to what he used, you can ask him yourself. His webpage is at www.shenwu.com and he's very approachable in frequently answering questions in his forum.

Everytime I've seen it discussed, I've heard that he uses many bagua techniques from standing the way many BJJ proponents use their wrestling and/or judo training for the standing component. (To complement his BJJ-based groundfighting)

Regardless, styles are not independant entities that somehow possess certain people. All a style is, is a collection of training methods. Through a collection of training methods, the skills of a person are forged. And this person may win or lose a competition. It is ignorant to reject the validity of a person's training regime because you can't see it being used. Ironically, the exact opposite logic is typically used for external stylists - who often attribute their winning to things like the conditioning they gain from their training regime.

The guy trains hard to be a good martial artist, and at least seems to be extraordinarily nice and generous with his knowledge. It's a shame to see that downplayed or turned into fuel for a ridiculous political discussion.

[Ralek]

Tim Cartmell has been training in BJJ for over 8 years and is a brown belt in BJJ.

So the thread should be title "BJJ brown belt wins BJJ tournament". After 8 years in the BJJ style i think that qualifies him to be a BJJ person.

He's been doing BJJ since the art first became popular in the U.S. He's has been doing BJJ longer than most BJJ guys have so this makes him more of a BJJ guy than BJJ guys themselves. If you watch a video of him you will see him using cross side, mount, guard, sweeps, ect. You won't see any kung fu. Unless kung fu teaches you how to pull guard, butt scoot, hold pins, shoot for double legs, ect.

There is no striking allowed in sport BJJ tournament thus forcing him to use 100% BJJ.

What is very ironic is that Kung fu people are always having to train in the realistic styles of BJJ, wrestling, muaythai, and boxing to fill in the their holes. Kung fu does not work so they have to train in realistic western styles. But for some reason you never see BJJ, boxers, muay thai, or wrestlers crosstraining in kung fu. I wonder why that is?

[les paul]

I wasn't aware that BJJ invented the heel lock or the arm bar.

I wasn't aware that BJJ had sole ownership on the choke.

Hmmmmm......


Let me understand the logic of the "Cyber jujitsu neophyte"


Someone who uses these techniques and wins a sport contest with BJJ'ers, cheats, because he used BJJ techniques and not techniques of their respected style.

Hmmm......

Ok ......

Then.....by the logic of the "Cyber jujitsu neophyte"


Any BJJ'er who uses strikes to finish off the oppisition, cheated!

Any Bjj'er who strikes to set up a lock, choke or hold, cheated again!

Any Bjj'er who strikes to get out of a lock, choke or hold, again was cheating!!!!!!!!!!



Because everyone knows the Chinese created the striking arts.




Right?


Les paul

"Jujitsu blows for self defense, though it makes a good sport to watch if you like grown men in tight shorts grappling each other"

[David Jamieson]

Don't feed the trolls :D

peace

[les paul]

Dang it!

I forgot!

les paul

[Ralek]

His grappling skill DOES come from BJJ because of the fact that he has been training BJJ for over 8 years and is a brown belt in the style. He has been doing BJJ for 8 years and you don't think he's a BJJ guy? Well then using that logic Carlos Gracie the founder of BJJ was not a BJJ guy cuase he started off in boxing. Shaolin Tiger is not a BJJ guy becuase he started off with san shou. I'm not a BJJ guy becuase i started off in Shotokan. Carlos Newton is not a BJJ guy becuase he started off in kali. Penn is not a BJJ guy because he started off in karate. Minotauro is not a BJJ guy becuase he's from Boxing. All the BJJ people come from other styles. BJJ doesn't attract non-martial artists becuase it is so new in the united states that only martial artists know about it. I guess there are no BJJ guys in the entire world. Even the founders of BJJ are not BJJ guys, their just boxers.

BJJ has strikes. That's the whole point of BJJ's strategy. Everything in BJJ revolves around strikes. The mount is so you can punch them easily but they can't punch you back. The cross side is a trasitional position where that totally prevents their strikes then you try to mount them. The guard is so you can survive from strikes while you are on your back. The better your position the safer you are from strikes and the easier it is for you to strike them.

The basic strategly of BJJ is to take them down, mount them, punch their head, then the punches will either cause them to defend with their arms witch exposes them to an armlock, or they will turn their back and then you can elbow their head then choke them. That's the basic BJJ strategy of what should happen in an ideal fight.

[Stacey]

As many of you know I am a bouncer....and I have rethought everything in terms of bouncing and real reality fighting....you know what I'm working on? Its not grappling. Its tai chi. Yep thats right. I walk on a slippery floor and if things are rowdy, glas is broken on the floor as well. This means ba gua stepping around people, and tai chi footwork. people wrestle..people box. It doens't matter to me. I'm thankfull for all that kung fu is. It means I can have the advantage. I'm workin on two man drills in class and sparring in terms of what I'm learning.


BJJ is a great art...but it can be improved upon. The philosophy of bjj is to get close and take them down. Mantis techniques are the best for bridging, intricate handwork and throws. I think serious jj practitioners should look into mantis techniques to make what they do more effective.

[GinSueDog]

Tim cross trains in BJJ, I doubt any Kung Fu was involved in his win, but who knows I wasn't there.-ED

[Merryprankster]

How about this?

It's as silly to say that his KF training had no part in his win, as it is to say that his KF training was why he won.

He won because he was better that day than any of his opponents :)

[Braden]

GSD - See my previous post. Also it is curious to me that when someone has 4x the experience in wrestling, sambo, judo, etc than in BJJ, their grappling victories are often attributed significantly to the former arts. But when the same is true of a kungfu man, the claim is that his kungfu training had no effect at all. The cynic in me might believe this is evidence of some underlying dogma.

MP - Absolutely. The difference is, no one ever claimed he won just because of his kungfu training.

[Ralek]

1. He trains in a BJJ school under a BJJ instructor for over 8 years.
2. There is not striking in sport BJJ tournaments. Unless kung fu teaches you to roll around and grapple.

[LEGEND]

Ralek has a point on that one. If I was studying boxing and won a wrestling tournament while grappling. Hell it wasn't like I used boxing since it's not allowed. It's lack using calculus to solve history. Grappling and Striking arts are two different animal. If this guy has some CHINESE GRAPPLING experience than that make sense that he can win.

[Braden]

The vast majority of kungfu systems are NOT kickboxing systems.

If you actually went to the link provided and asked the man himself or looked at the videos he has provided for free on his site, you would know that.

[qeySuS]

If he's a brown belt i'd say he's pretty much a BJJ player :) Doesnt it take like ... 8 years to get a brown belt ?

[Le nOObi]

im not attributing the win to taiji experience but if you go to www.shenwu.com click on taiji click on yang form you will see an example of throwing in the taiji system! This particular throw would be impractical in a bjj tournament but it is still an example of how taiji would create a better grappler.

[Ky-Fi]

I suppose if you want a definitive answer to this question, somebody (who's less lazy than me) can always just go to Tim's bulletin board and ask the guy himself how much of a role BJJ and CMA played in his win.

[Kempo Guy]

FWIW, Tim has on his website attributed many of his takedowns in BJJ tournaments to Ba Gua, but most or all his groundfighting is BJJ...

[MightyB]

-------
"BJJ has strikes. That's the whole point of BJJ's strategy. Everything in BJJ revolves around strikes. The mount is so you can punch them easily but they can't punch you back. The cross side is a trasitional position where that totally prevents their strikes then you try to mount them. The guard is so you can survive from strikes while you are on your back. The better your position the safer you are from strikes and the easier it is for you to strike them.

The basic strategly of BJJ is to take them down, mount them, punch their head, then the punches will either cause them to defend with their arms witch exposes them to an armlock, or they will turn their back and then you can elbow their head then choke them. That's the basic BJJ strategy of what should happen in an ideal fight."
-------

Actually, that sounds more like "Lion's Den Pancrase" than BJJ. Frank Shamrock only needed 6 months at the Lion's Den before he started beating BJJ.

Does it really matter what Tim Cartmell used? Training harder than your opponent=Win. That's pretty much it. Doesn't matter what style you use. You should try to learn as much about other styles as possible just like the US Government tries to learn as much about its enemies weapons as possible to defeat them.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by MightyB
-------
Does it really matter what Tim Cartmell used? Training harder than your opponent=Win. That's pretty much it. Doesn't matter what style you use. You should try to learn as much about other styles as possible just like the US Government tries to learn as much about its enemies weapons as possible to defeat them.

I think that this thread was partly created as proof of the relevance of the internal CMA's in modern martial arts, not as proof they are the greatest martial arts ever but instead that they are effective etc.

[MightyB]

Isn't Tim Cartmell the guy who's recently published a couple of books and videos on Xing Yi?

Good for him if he's winning tournaments too.

[Ralek]

MightyB. Frank Shamrock lost to John Lober, a jiujitsu guy in SuperBrawl 3 in hawaii. Lober kicked Shamrocks ass. But Sharmrock does Wrestling and kickboxing styles that are effective. Wrestling is one of the most effective styles. I never said otherwise.

It's amazing that before kung fu guys can make their art work they need to learn BJJ for 8 years then use BJJ. It's been proven many tiems that there are only 3 styles that work.

They are: BJJ, kickboxing, and wrestling.

They are each a general name. Wrestling can be greco roman, freestlye, folkstyle. Kickboxing can be Muay thai, boxing, ect. BJJ includes the newaza of judo. But judo throws are outdated compared to the superior wrestling takedowns and clinch.

These are the only styles that work. A kung fu person will not be able to fight unless he trains in one of these styles first. It's been proven through hundreds of fights.

[MightyB]

Heck, in MMA it depends on who's tougher on the night of the fight because they all use the same techniques.

I'm not a big fan of BJJ because it seems to be bogged down with the same dogma of any traditional MA. I prefer the new freestyle methods of MMA for groundfighting because they seem more natural and results driven and I prefer the western wrestling base that they have over the Judo base that BJJ has.

I would agree that everyone should study groundfighting but just like the stand up striking arts, there's a huge variety of groundfighting styles and you should choose the one that works for you.

Kung Fu is a stand up style which I prefer as a stand up striking style because it is more complete than other striking styles. It has the same strikes and kicks that kickboxing has and a lot more because it incorporates joint locks, take downs, traps and leg catches, and pressure point attacks. A lot of people like Thai boxing because they think it's the best. Good for them and I'm glad that they are happy, but, Thai boxing's secret is in that they train constantly for combat and then they really fight. If a person trains the same way in Kung Fu, in my opinion, they will have better results because they have more techniques to choose from. But, they have to train to fight. No super mental internal chi-kung cultivation BS! Train to fight and practice by fighting!

That's BJJ's secret, Judo's secret, wrestling's secret, boxing's secret, and kickboxing's secret. They train to fight by fighting. They don't think about what it's like to fight, they fight. And, if you want to be good at any MA, you have to have that attitude.

Time to get off my soapbox.

Peace,

The B

[Midnight Oil]

"They train to fight by fighting."

Yup. That makes a great deal of sence.

[Phantom Menace]

No one said anything about not using BJJ to win. My post said "Internal martial artist wins BJJ tournament." Tim is an internal martial artist, views BJJ as an internal martial art and practices it as such.

[Grappling-Insanity]

>>No one said anything about not using BJJ to win<<

Buddy your title is "Internal Martial Artist wins Jiu Jitsu tournament" since BJJ isnt usually not refered to as an IMA your title gave the impression.

No one is implying that he didnt use CMA in his fight, because wouldnt u use any technique youve trained? but chances are since its a BJJ tournement he probably used mainly BJJ techs.