Lineages....(What do they mean?)

[old jong]

Wing Chun lineage really mean N.O.T.H.I.N.G !...If your present day Si-Fu can't teach or does'nt really know what he is talking about! You could be from whatever prestigious line of and still be in the dark depending on many factors.
Wing Chun is a strange animal in many ways! Sometimes a nobody from an obscure lineage can becomes a Wing Chun genius simply because he understood it's principles and could apply them better than his Si-Fu or Si-Gung! A teacher can only guide a student and only that.
I am proud of my Augustine Fong/Patrick Gordon lineage but I know that it is to the individual to do the real work. You can do that work with any good Si-Fu if he is flexible enough to recongnise your strong and weak points and let you develop what is really good for you. There are many kinds of teacher in all lineage.Some are tough guys who use students as wallbags!...Some are nothing more than phylosophers!...I think the ideal ones are somewhere in the middle! ;)If you find the right one, you don't have to worry about lineage.
...If this post means nothing to you, Maybe you should post there (http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/default.asp)and forget this place!... :eek: :rolleyes: ;) ;) (I hope it is not your case!):D

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Nicely put Old Jong and while I do agree with the statement I think that there is some benefit to one having a verifiable lineage.

Basically, when one can trace their roots to a respectable Sifu then they can have confidence that they are learning something worthwhile. What I mean is that Wing Chun has become quite popular and there are always those who will take advantage of this. You may find karate people teaching what they call Wing Chun in an attempt to cash in on this popularity. While lineage is no guarantee of quality, a lack of lineage is usualy a good indication that one should train elsewhere.

I have four purebred Rottweilers, two from the same breeder. While they all have good lines there is no guarantee that any of them will be champions. The lineage may be good but there are still instances where defects creep into the line. I view Wing Chun in much the same way. Each lineage has exponents who can make the art work for them as well as those who can't.

Having a good lineage is of benefit as you know where your source is. Still, as Old Jong points out, the skill developed by the student is reliant on the Sifus' ability to transmit knowledge and the students willingness to train hard.

A knowledgeable Sifu and HARD WORK are more important than lineage.

Peace,

Dave

[azwingchun]

I have to agree with both of you, a great lineage is a nice thing. In the way that you know that it wasn't something some guy in his garage made up and passes on as true Wing Chun. A good example of this is a student of mine studied shoalin Kenpo. After a few discussion with me about Wing Chun, he later came to me and said that his teacher said that there is Wing Chun in thier system. I had to explain to him that though there may be Wing Chun movements and ideas and I could assure him that his system wasn't Wing Chun. Later on he decided to move camps and train with me.

Though on the other hand, I do come from a background which is of well known lineage, I no longer am with them nor with anyone for that matter. And when I left was told that I had lost my lineage. LOL! I kinda find this funny, since you can not take what I have learned, though they my never recognize me as part of the lineage, I do have all signed sealed certificates, photos not to mention the exact art. So, my question is did they really take away anything? My opinion is they took nothing, some may see it differently. To be honest, after I (as well as a few others at the same time) left, and saw the attitude and various strike outs towards us, I am glad to have done what I did and don't wish to be affiliated with them anymore. Though my Sifu will always be my Sifu in my eyes. What I mean by this is, when we left, my Sifu told us that we had lost lineage, our response was that just because your son/daughter has a fight with you and leaves the house never to return, doesn't change thier blood line. IMHO.

What is your opinion on this?


;)

[old jong]

Dave.
Your nuances are well appreciated (As usual!)You are very good in understanding my "frenchglish" and putting what I mean in a more easy to digest form!...;) :D
azwingchun.
I see what you mean. Nobody could take back what you learned from him and denied the fact that he was your teacher. A business deal with a Wing Chun organisation can be broken.You may want to end a business contract and never talk to your Si-Fu for some reason but you still learned from him and he taught you. Nobody could change that.

[azwingchun]

I am glad you understand where I am coming from since some I have run across do not. Though this doesn't bother me, for Wing Chun and my martial studies whatever they may be, are not business deals they are my way of life.;)

[Sihing73]

Old Jong,

I think you stated your view perfectly fine and it was well worded. I am in agreement with your view and am glad that my post was able to add to your original thoughts.

azwingchun,

Funny, when I broke with a certain organization several years ago I was told much the same thing. According to them I could no longer teach as I was no longer a member of the org. While I may not be able to teach under that banner there was no taking away the knowledge I had already gained. I give credit to my old Sifu as well as my current one. The good thing is that I am able to pass on to my students an understanding of both my original training as well as my current one. I hope to be able to open eyes to the different methods of doing Wing Chun. In this way, I hope to show that all "lineages" have something to offer and no one has a lock on the truth so to speak.

I think that knowledge is quantitative and grows with experience. Once gained knowledge can not be taken away from you, though you can forget it with lack of use.

Peace,

Dave

[azwingchun]

I agree 100%. And to add to what you said, the differences (though a small reason of the whole break-up) in Wing Chun I had noticed. Due to noticing these differences I would address them with my Sifu, and the reply I would get is they are not doing Wing Chun correctly. I found this disturbing, not to mention that maybe there was more Wing Chun out there than I was getting with him. Not to discredit his system, he is a great teacher and his Wing Chun was awesome, but I had the ability to know just because someone trained Wing Chun differently didn't mean that they did it incorrectly. Now, as you stated, I also teach what was taught to me and at the right time I also show my students other variations other Wing Chun brothers may do it without being judgemental, unless it is just ridiculously incorrect.;)

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by old jong
I know that it is to the individual to do the real work. You can do that work with any good Si-Fu if he is flexible enough to recongnise your strong and weak points and let you develop what is really good for you.

-- Best post I've read out here, Old Jong. Hats off to you.

[dbulmer]

I don't have the knowledge or skill to pass comment on any lineage and I suspect that people like me form the majority. That said, I look at it this way: I like football ( real football not your American version :D ) and if 10 people watch the same game you'd get 10 different accounts about the detail but the result of the game might be the same.

The forum you quote has some very good people but also has some people who have not trained in WC or have lost sight of the fact that WC is supposed to open your mind to new ideas/thoughts (perhaps the true essence of SLT ? :) )not slam it shut.

best wishes,

[S.Teebas]

Sorry i disagree. Linage does mean somthing. I see your point old jong and agree that if you teacher a cant teach you, and if you not willing to train hard then your potential to be no good is greatly increased.

But if you were to change the variables of that equasion to:

Bad teacher + hard work = good student

Then yes you can have a good student. But if it were to change again to:

Excellent teacher + hard work = excellent student

Then I think in this instance it WOULD make a difference. I mean if you were willing to put the same amount of effort in under different Sifu's, well i think it would be rediculous to think you'd come out with the same level of skill.

Another example. Would you think linage means anything if this was your linage:

yip man -> TST -> TST student -> student of TST student -> student of student of TST studnet ->me ??

or would you prefer..

yip man -> TST -> Me ???

There is no way you can say linage means nothing. The closer to the source you are the more pure your knowledge is going to be (provided the "effort" variable is constant).

Im not into debates about who's linage is superiour (although i do joke about it now and then just stir some people :) ) but I cant agree with the statement that it means NOTHING!

[old jong]

Just a question: Do you think that all Yip Man students were good?...
And what about the students of these guys?...
I mean; whatever the lengh of the chain, "shorter does not necessary means better"!...
Wing Chun is a principle based system and a guy with some insight can really learn something from the forms once he has learned them.

BTW, I think that the word "nothing" is maybe a little too strong! I should have said; lineage does not mean everything!...

[tiger_1]

my friend old jong im just like to say good topic and fine theme for thinking and for inform. jung wing chungers friendly tiger_1:)

[red5angel]

My issue with lineage is that in most, there has been some modification done. What was it for? For most people, the goal is to make wing chun their own. But what if you mistake what works for you as golden? Then you begin teaching everyone else what works for you, it may not for someone else...........

[[Censored]]

Sorry i disagree. Linage does mean somthing. I see your point old jong and agree that if you teacher a cant teach you, and if you not willing to train hard then your potential to be no good is greatly increased.

There is no such thing as a bad student of a good teacher, or a good student of a bad teacher.

Not every player can or should be a teacher.

Bad teacher + hard work = good student

Good at being bad? LOL :) I guess everybody should be good at something.

[S.Teebas]

There is no such thing as a bad student of a good teacher, or a good student of a bad teacher.

Yes there is. Just becuase somone shows up to calss under a good teacher school doesnt make them a good student. And just because you teacher isnt GREAT doesnt mean you cant be good.

But the point i was making is that if it's the same individual putting in the same amout of effort, under different sifu's, then of course the results will vary.


Good at being bad? LOL

I agree that is funny. But i didnt say or infer it.

[red5angel]

I think that having a bad teacher can be a huge crutch! What if your instructor is missing all of the small but key points in training? Then you may or may not get them. Alot of what we do in WC isnt exactly intuitive!

[[Censored]]

Just becuase somone shows up to calss under a good teacher school doesnt make them a good student.

By what measure is a teacher "good", if they cannot motivate (much less transform) a mediocre student? Tell me.

[red5angel]

True Censored, I meant to clarify. You can be a good student regardless of how good or bad your teacher is, in that you have the heart and put in the work to practice and train. A good teacher is one who passeson the apropriate skills, in an understandable manner and correctly.

[S.Teebas]

By what measure is a teacher "good", if they cannot motivate (much less transform) a mediocre student? Tell me.

Ok. There's a guy up the road teaching wing chun at the YMCA whos great at motivating people to practice! He teaches lap sau, and gaun sau and then paak sau all in the first week. It really makes you wanna come to class and learn!!! But he only knows up to the second form.

OR

There's a guy who learnt off Yip man, who's been teaching for 40 years. Has great depth of knowledge, knows what a student SHOULD learn and has the abilitly to pass on the whole system with the intent to create a top quality student...but through hard work and proper training (can be slow and sometimes tedious)

NOW, whos the better teacher? What do you consider a "Good" teacher? someone who can motivate you for 6 months...or someone who isn't so great at marketing the system, but can pass on a greater level of skill!!?

....its up to you. If you wanna learn 20 moves to impres you mates, then cool, go learn off the guy who motivates YOU! ...OR you can motivate yourself.
It also depends on what it is that actually motivites you as an individual. For me its the great skill a teacher posesses. Skill thats so far ahead of my own i cant see a single flaw in them or even dream of touching them!

Skill speaks for itself, marketing strategy's dont always.

[[Censored]]

Leave the strawman in the closet please. I don't train at the Y. ;)

Once there was a guy who had trained so long and hard, all his movements were completely silent and invisible. None of his students acquired his skill, but not for lack of trying.

Sifu: "Do it like this."
Student: "Huh?"
Sifu: "Like this."
Student: "Like this?"
Sifu: "NO! Like this."
Student: "What happened?"
Sifu: "TRY HARDER!"

Sifu was a terrible teacher. :)

[old jong]

Being a direct Yip Man student does not garantee great Wing Chun skills!...In fact,he rarely gave equal care and attention to every one of his students and even taugh things very differently to some sometimes.
It is how well a Si-Fu understand and can pass on the system that is important,not how close he is from "the man" in his lineage branch.
The rest depend on the student.