Kung Lek/ 5 animals

[jun_erh]

I read that page in it's entirety and it doesn't back up your arguement at all. Maybe in reference to when they are taught, but not in the execution. Wouldn't a higher level tiger style be more "internal" than a lower level dragon? Maybe this is strictly a southern style explanation because the generic answer would be that there isn't anything more or less internal about a dragon claw than a tiger claw, they are all part of an externaly based style.

I can't seem to find the original post that offered your explanation

[David Jamieson]

Hi Jun erh

Yes, I believe I did state that this was how one learned the five animals and that over time the distinctions between the animals is less noticable as skill in the practitioner grows.

I also believe that the more one practices a martial art, the more they will internalize it in themselves and achieve optimum speed and power generation and breath et al. By the time they are doing the dragon form (the longest and most difficult kuen) from the five animals all the sets will be executed with internal power.

peace

[jun_erh]

you should go into politics. Now how about answering my question

[David Jamieson]

I'm not certain how I haven't answered your question.
You asked how external moves to internal through the animals and their inherent qualities.

Is that right?

peace

[Je Lei Sifu]

This may not have anything to do with the original topic, but in the Hung Ga style the dragon is the first animal to be performed in the 5 animal set.

The dragon section of Ng Ying is used for internal development therefore, there are only a few movements used for combat or external purpose. However, there are several dragon movements within Hung Ga that are used for combat.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

[TenTigers]

Jei Lei Sifu- that is a point I have always had trouble with-the notion that the dragon section is just for health and has no or few combat applications. I just don't see it. I see applications in EVERY movement of every form, especially Tiet Sien Kuen, a form which people have often stated is purely for health. I really can't find a movement within these forms that have no practical fighting application, whether directly or indirectly. Can you???

[Je Lei Sifu]

TenTigers,

Regarding Tid Sin, there are several movements within this set the are applicable without a doubt. Just as well, Tid Sin is good for health and the stimulation of the internal organs.

This is an important part of training Hung Ga's Yum Yeurng, external/internal, hard and soft aspects. As it is known, the 5 animal set of Hung Ga starts with several movements that are borrowed from Tid Sin. This is done in order to develop the internal strength of the practitioner and not so much for the applicable use of technique. This does not mean that the dragon section of 5 animal boxing has no practical use, but that it is performed mainly for the development of internal energy.

For me to say that the dragon techniques of Hung Ga are not practical would be extremely incorrect, but to say it is used for fighting without considering the fact of it's internal development would be way off.

Does the Dragon section of 5 animals develop internal power? Yes. Does the Dragon section of 5 animals have practical use? Yes. However, it's purpose is for the development of the internal energy.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

[bean curd]

the complexity of dragon is what make it so mystical.

one has to remember that when playing iron wire, the play of dragon is not the same as when using lung ying for fighting. what i mean by this is when in iron wire on a basic level the element used is earth ( tow ), in fighting the element used in gold ( gum ).

now this can be confusing if one does not understand requirment of tit sien in play and lung ying in fighting

[jun_erh]

Kung Lek- forget it. I think we're both sort of right. It's a linguistic thing

[TenTigers]

there is quite a difference between 'SEVERAL' and "EVERY". You said there are SEVERAL movements in the dragon form and tiet sien kuen that CAN be applicable to fighting, and I am saying that EVERY movement IS applicable to fighting-as well as health beneifits. I would be interested in what techniques in the set are NOT applicable? I'm not being pickeune (sp?) but I AM trying always to get the most out of my art on all levels. The idea is to make each generation better than the one before. To constantly seek out new techniques, new applications, theories, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE!!! oops, um... kinda drifted there.

[Je Lei Sifu]

TenTigers,

It all depend on how you play Tid Sin. The way we play it is much different than any other school I have seen. The Tid Sin we play has more application than any other school I have seen. However, I have not had the opportunity to see complete set of some of these schools.

What combat application is there for Tiger roar and Dragon sing? This movement in general does not have any combat application. The movement after which we use is a Chum Kui with both palms to a Cheun Jueng.

I have seen the Tid Sin performed by several different schools, be it the Yee's, Y.C. Wong, Lam Jo ect., everyone plays it slightly different, some closer than others. I had the opportunity to see some use kicks within Tid Sin, but when I saw a video of Kwong Wing Lam perform it, there was no kicking envolved. I also do not see any kicks performed in LSW book on Tid Sin. Unfortunately, I can not read the characters so I am unable to say whether or not the should be in there.

Once again it depend on how you play it.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

P.S. If you and I were to perform our versions of Tid Sin, you would seen a great difference between our schools of thought and training and you would understand where I am coming from.

[TenTigers]

I definately agree that it depends on how you play it. That movement can be for obvious health benefits, or again depending on which version, ours does fook sao into biu jee. into gawt sao, before coming up into the Tiger Roars, Dragon Bellows , which can be played as a locking technique. I see tons of cum na sao in this set-besides the aforementioned health benefits. I think no matter what, we have a responsibility to extract, and refine and extrapolate on techniques in our sets, otherwise the system gets smaller and smaller, shallower and shallower, and before you know it, it turns into 'shotokan with kewl claws"! ;-)

[Je Lei Sifu]

TenTigers
Hopefully I can make it to the Wong Fei Hung Tournament this year. If I am there, maybe we can break bread and discuss our similarities and differences in the way we play Ng Ying and Tid sin :)


Wish you the Best ;)

Peace to you

Je Lei Sifu