Combatives - Army Field Manual 2002

[Jax]

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/toc.htm

Some of you may not have seen this.
It looks like text book BJJ to me.

[qeySuS]

i was looking at some videos at www.goarmy.com the other day, you could see them teaching some groundfighting, they were doing keylocks on each other and stuff, they did some very basic boxing as well, what i liked the most about in what i saw was the bayonette (sp?) practice, which was basicly aimed at getting the "aggressive" side of people out, that's definetly somethign a lot of people ahve a problem with when they start any contact sport, if they can get over a certain threshold and just throw everything they have into a strike that's something good.

[Merryprankster]

It IS textbook BJJ. Rorian had a rather large hand in this from my understanding.

I have NO IDEA why they are teaching so many submissions!. Three chokes, two armlocks, two leglocks, one or two guard breaks (so he can back out, draw/obtain his weapon and commence to killing the enemy) no finishes from the guard. I don't need Joe Private working a triangle--I need him getting his ass UP so he can kill more of the enemy. Sweeping and getting up should be the primary focus for basic combatives--not 30 choke variations.

Ugh.

Also--where the HELL is the weapons retention?

[respectmankind]

or, get this, we could get them to push a button and use machines. use of a soldier is becoming less needed. no more d day shot to bits.

[Merryprankster]

Respect--

You can't secure territory without ground forces. The days of humans on the ground will not be over for a good long while--and so long as you put people on the ground, there WILL be H2H.

[Braden]

BlackJack posted this a while ago, as well as one of the older ones. I personally liked the older one alot better.

[respectmankind]

allow me to make fun of you merryprankster. because i said 'less needed'. no hard feeling, but i am tired and have wanted to do my retard impression all day. 'my name is marryprankster, my momma tells me that if her condom didn't rip, i wouldn't be here, i don't know what that means, but my bus driver, on my special bus, touches me, he says not to tell and that everyoen does it, i don't know, but it sure feels funny.' like i said, no offense, and it would be funnier if you could see me do it.

[Merryprankster]

Well, the ground needed to be addressed--but we really don't need a BJJ based combatives system. Wrong tool for the job.

LOL at Respect! :)

[respectmankind]

i totaly agree on that.

[Braden]

For sure. Very briefly. ;p

Man some of the stuff in that manual is wierd though. Like that rear takedown for a sentry deanimation. !?

[qeySuS]

well there could be some groundwork, but i agree it should be more "chute boxe" oriented, sweep them, if in the guard, stand up and stomp them.

[Royal Dragon]

Oh, MY F U C K I N G GOD!!!!!!!!!

This manual has more combative holes that swiss chees shot up by an M-16 with full auto!!!!

I'm gpoing to cover some of the bigger stuff that ****ed me off.

1. The boxer is a better puncher than the traditional martial artist not because of the mechanics of punching, but because his technique has been refined through competition

Royal Reply]
What the F U C K is this?? We don't compete? All the hours we spend drilling punches, doing bag work and working them in sparring some how magically loose thier effectiveness because we have a Kung Fu uniform on instead of Boxing shorts??

What, the US military thinks and old Chinese guy (Who can still fight despite his age by the way) is less effective at teaching his students to puch effectively than some old Boxing coach who can't even fight anymore, and coaches by shouting orders at his fighter from the corner of the ring wile smoking a cigar and drinking coffe at the same time??? What the hell is THAT??!!!

2. Striking. Striking is an inefficient way to incapacitate an enemy

WTF U C K!!!! Since when does a K.O. NOT incapacitate the enemy?? Since when does a hard bare knuckel shot to just about anywhere NOT incapacitate the enemy?? Da.mm, Friki'n TEENAGERS know how to incapacitate others with strikes for GOD SAKE!!!

3. BJJ in the MILITARY??? I can see Shui Chiao, as it is fast brutal and qiuckly destructive, and has the ability to kill maim or at least neutralise an opponent from the throw alone, but BJJ?? where you have to roll around on the ground for god awefull amounts of time, and work for a submission?? What are they crazy?? This is the military for god sakes!!! Their job above all else is to kill people, and break things, as fast and most efficently as possible. Not train to compete in RING SPORTS!!! for GOD sakes!!!!!

4. The other mistake is that once a method of competition has been selected, training will naturally become focused on winning at competition rather than on winning in combat. To gain the benefits from competition without falling into the trap of a competitive focus, the unit must have a graduated system of competition rules. In this way there will be no competitive advantage to training specifically for competitions. Those who do will find themselves unprepared for the additional techniques that are allowed at the next level of competition. This also allows for a very safe subset of techniques to be used at the lower levels without loosing the combat focus.


Reply]
Ok, so they are worried about not ruining the combat effectiveness of thier units here, right?? Lets look at the rules of thier contest shall we?


Three sets of rules govern combatives competition-basic, standard, and special. Although other combative sports are encouraged, they sometimes reinforce bad combative habits.
2 Points Take Down: From the standing position, the fighter places his opponent on the ground but fails to gain dominant position.
3 Points Take Down: From the standing position, the fighter places his opponent on his back and gains side control or the mount.
3 Points Pass the Guard: From between his opponent's legs, the fighter clears the legs and gains side control or the mount.
3 Points Sweep: From the guard position, the fighter changes positions, placing his opponent on his back.
3 Points Knee in Chest: From side control, the fighter establishes one knee in his opponent's chest and or abdomen and the other knee up and away from him and stabilizes himself.
4 Points Mount: The fighter establishes the mount with both knees and feet on the ground.
4 Points Back Mount: The fighter establishes the back mount with both feet hooked in position.
1 Point deduction: Stalling: From either within the guard or side control, the fighter must try to improve his position. The judge will give two warnings and then subtract a point. If the stalling continues, the judge gives two additional warnings, then subtracts an additional point, continuing this pattern until the end of the match or action is conducted.
d. Judging. Each match has one judge and one score keeper. It is the judge's responsibility to ensure a safe and fair match. All decisions are final.


e. Illegal Techniques. The following are illegal and dangerous techniques. Their use may result in disqualification:
Strikes of any kind.
Twisting knee locks.
Finger techniques.
Wrist techniques.
Grabbing the fingers.
Toe holds.
Attacking the groin.
Picking up the opponent to pass the guard.

More Illegal Techniques.
Head butts.
Closed fist strikes to the head.
Striking with the elbows.
Groin strikes.
Straight palm strikes to the face.
Kicks and knee strikes to a downed opponent.
Striking the throat.
Pulling hair.
Poking or gouging eyes.
Biting.
Throwing an opponent onto their head or neck.
Heel hooks.
Grabbing the ring ropes.
Pinching (intentional).
Scratching (intentional).
Striking the side and or front of the knee.
Knee strikes to the face.
Finger and toe submissions.


Royal Reply]
My GOD man they are teaching our fighting boys to play patsy with thier GRAND MA'S!!!I can see a few rules for safety, but this is all going to train real combat effectivenes right OUT of a soldier!!! I mean the first set of "Illegal" rules takes out everything usefull and limits the solider to GRAPPELING!!! What the helll is THAT?? What they need are old UFC rules.

Why is it illegal to pick up the opponent to pass the gaurd? Is it that easy to beat the gaurd by just picking the opponent up? If so, they should be ENCOURAGING IT THEN!!! Not trainingt SOLDIERS to willfully ignore fast efficient combat manuvers.

How about this being illegal------>Kicks and knee strikes to a downed opponent.

Royal reply]
Shouldn't we be ENCOUURAGING this stuff from a SOLDIER??? I mean the last thing they should be doing is learning to NOT go for the kill so the enemy can get up and waste them.

I don't have the time, but I could go on ripping this "Field Manual" apart for hours. It's all crap, and in a real life and death un armed confrontation, the Alquedia is going to win with ease, and LAUGH at us to boot.........................................

[Royal Dragon]

d. Chokes. Chokes are the best way to end a fight. They are the most effective way to incapacitate an enemy and, with supervision, are also safe enough to apply in training exactly as on the battlefield.

Reply]
B U L L S H I T!!!!!!!! Killing the enemy is the best way to end a fight. A FAST, INSTANT, CLEAN knock out is good too followed by a good shooting in the head from the soldiers side arm. Chokes take too long, and should only be used if the situation demands such because it has become more advantagous. To say they are the BEST way to end a fight is rediculios. That comment does not take into account a million varioables that could be present at the moment. If you said they were an "effective" way in many situations (Like silent century removal) I'd feel better, but to say it's the best way?? Sorry pal your restricting the thinking of those who's job it is to defend this great country.


Who's stupid idea was it to take hand to hand lessons from BRAZIL??? What kind of military force are THEY?? They are NOTHING!!

If anything, they should be learning from US. The Isralies have some bad assed hand to hand combat, better we study thier stuff, at least it's born and bred in a real combat enviroment where it has been TESTED in REAL WAR like situations instead of the ring far removed from the realitys of the battlefield.

[guohuen]

It takes a big arse and a lot of coffee to pilot a desk and dream up this kind of useless crap.

[Black Jack]

Guohuen,

I sooooo freakin agree, I think that manuel blows ass, and is composed of what are pc culture is all about these days.

In short words for the purposes of field combatives, I think it sucks, but as a BJJ sourcebook, I think its great.

Some of the older stuff from the early 90's manuel is still in there, none of the stuff from the 40's and 60's era wars, I know Kelly Worden does the special forces knifework now, that should be real good, but otherwise, ehhh!?

I believe the LINE system was changed to the SF crowd as well.

[Royal Dragon]

What is the SF crowd?

And what is the "Line" system?

[guohuen]

"Everthing that goes around comes around":D I'm not worried. After enough soldiers get their butts kicked the Army in their infinate wisdom:rolleyes: will start using something effective again. Anyone know if they're still using the "Depue" formation. That one was brilliant. I know of no better way for a squad to make more noise in the field than two skeletons fornicating on a tin roof.

[red5angel]

Anyone here in the military? If you are or were, you have probably realized a long time ago that these training regimens are more about putting confidence into te soldier then teaching him how to grapple. You dont exaclty get real intensive exposure to this stuff.

[Merryprankster]

Red--

I understand that completely--if these guys retain 4 moves out of everything they learn, that's a good result :)

However, what I'm gettting at is that the ground portion is cluttered. There is too much stuff in there--like passing the guard. WTF? I don't want the soldier to pass guard, I want him to break guard, stand up and either obtain a weapon to kill his enemy or start bootstomping him into oblivion.

[red5angel]

I agree, I think every man in the army who fights should be taught to kill in every way imaginable, thats their job! But that is not politically correct or good for moral when the men under you realize they might have to kill barehanded. So you teach them a few nifty tricks to make them feel like if they have to tussle they can subdue the guy. My personal attitude while in the marines was if you arent wearing my colors I will find a way to kill you. Its not politically correct but I would never claim to be, especially when it is me or him.

[Royal Dragon]

But that is not politically correct or good for moral when the men under you realize they might have to kill barehanded

Reply]
I thought the military was suposed to create raw Killers. In that senario, shouldn't the thought of having to kill with your bare hands be GOOD for moral? What is our military comming to? They should be tough enogh to kill bard handed and it should have no effect on moral, if it doens, then thye aren't Marines, they are pansys who shouold be in some sort of feel good PC community service vocation, like working with the homeles or something.

Soldiers are suposed to kill people, and break things. If they can't, then they should not be there to begin with, or the militery is suposed to TRAIN them to be capable. Not trick them with a false sence of security like a common Mc Kwoon!!

[Black Jack]

Royal Drgaon,

The LINE Program was the USMC's discontinued close combat system, it stands for Linear-Infighting Neutral-Override Engagement.

It is not martial arts, it is close combat, with only one level of force, by that I mean Lethal, smash the guys head in with your helmet, stomp on his skull after you slam him down, sentry removal stuff, simple and effective techniques mastered with a bunch of reps.

I have heard that they did not get rid of it all together and that the Force Recon Units are training in it, The LINE system which some people think is awesome and some people don't care much for as it only offers one level of force, was replaced by the MCMAP program.

MCMAP is the new asain based Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, which offers belts up to 6th degree-Master at Arms-it is more of a sign of the times, more non-lethal based tactics, pressure points, locks, throws, manipulations, though they do have the strikes in there of course.

I can not say anything solid about it as I have never seen it, but I hear it sucks as a close combat system, to much info, to much to remeber, its a full martial art, from what I hear is that it reminds me of a extended police tactics course, though who knows.

Which is weird because the USMC already has non-lethal h2h programs, the USMC Pressure Point Control System and the MDTS System. (Mondnock Defensive Training System)

They put MCMAP's together with a Shrink/New Age Aikidoka and a old line hard ass Marine CQC Instructor, I hear they are trying to increase spiritual toughness in there Marines, to make ethical warriors, to me it sounds like a pseudo-socialistic experiment.

P.S. You can purchase the complete LINE Program through Paladin Press, in a two or three tape VHS format, the instructor is a Marine LINE instructor, I am going to pick it up once I get the cash, the stuff I have seen live is good, so it looks interesting.

[Royal Dragon]

Maybe they should teach LINE first, and then offer the martial arts later to career soldiers. There should be NO ranks though. The military already has a ranking structure, they don't need a civillian system too.

Oh, and this BJJ thing has GOT to go, it's rediculious for the military. Millitary martial arts should be simple and deadly, not complicated and cuddly.

Persute of more sophisticated martial arts should be only for more senior ranks who can already kill with efficiency.

[red5angel]

Black Jack - some buddies of mine who are still in say that they are using the MCMAP system because there were so many people going out of the Corp to get martial HtH training. I know when I was in there were alot o fguys going to local dojos, etc.... a few guys teaching it on ships and base. I personally felt the best "class" was to sneak up on an unsuspecting SEAL and kick him real hard in the seat of the pants. You wana talk about reality fighting!

[Black Jack]

Red5Angel,:D

I have never done MCMAPS so I don't now either way, though I have spoken to people that have trained in it and they did not like it, I also believe it is now open to other military branches.

I heard one of the reasons they wanted to get a more spiritual based system was because a number of the marines were "acting" out of character in Okinawa, getting rowdy, in fights, that sort of thing, though if you ask me, I think we should have rowdy marines.:)

As for the rank thing, I don't have an opinion either way, rank does not mean much when someone is trying to shove a bayonet into your gut, it does give the soliders something to strive for though in a personal respect, I think with the other systems it was either you became a instructor or not, not multiple dan ranks, I also understand they use the ranks via shirts, like tan shirt, green shirt, black shirt??

[Royal Dragon]

but ranks already exist in the military. You don't need a "Feel Good" civilian rank system for what is "Suposed" to be a hardened Marine. The fact that someone feels this is a nessaasary thing tells me that our Marines are soft and girly.

I want tough hardened Marines who only look at rank with in the context of the comand structure, NOT in the context of self esteem or social status, that's for softys.

I want fighters, NOT pretty boys.

[Merryprankster]

Royal--I really don't think what you're talking about is a problem.

And as for the H2H rankings, it's similar to experienced enlisted personnel being subject matter experts. As an engineer officer, I could never take apart the synchros for the indicator repeaters, or aligned the gyrocompass properly, or calibrated our MG sets, but my electricians could. One of our gunners mates was the man when it came to conducting maritime boardings because he had received special training in another job.

For somebody whose purpose is to kill, I don't see a problem with providing a way of differentiating who is the subject matter expert, and who is not--just because somebody outranks you, doesn't mean they know the material better.

I've received training from people who I outrank countless times, and vice versa. You learn from who knows the stuff--and follow the orders of those in charge.

[Black Jack]

Royal,

I agree, your peaching to the choir, I was just stating what some may see as a personal merit, it does not bother me.

I still would not go so far though as to say our Marines are soft and girly, h2h is just a very small bit of there fighting ability, and I am sure there h2h instructors can hold there own, they have the aggression part down, and that's half the abttle.

Grappling in the military,

I just wanted to put this down as grappling in the military is nothing new, I have posted pictures on this forum before on American military grappling going back to 1896, I believe BJJ in a certain context could be a vaulable asset to learning ground strategy, but not if its taught from a sport submission point of view and not anywhere near the length of material that is covered in the new manuel.

Submissions on the recieving end in a life or death fight don't really add up to much in the braod scope of things, you can not tap out, your corner can not throw in the towel, you will have to fight through the submission to save your life, the terrorist is not going to armbar you and go, "ah ha!!!, I broke your arm, now I am done!!!!".

He is going to try and kill you, he does not want a wrestling match to see who can submit who, this is where those fouling tactics of eye gouges, biting, and weapons come out and play.

Ground tactics IMHO should be learned so you have some knoweldge of how to get up from the ground, not how to tackle somebody and stay down there, throw into the mix the above tricks with a few chokes and neck manipulations/breaks, plus striking from a mounted position, and I think you have a good base.

Mounted does not always mean to me the standard across the body mount by the way, IMHO the best mount to have is where I am mounting my attackers freaking head, my point in saying this is just to state that they should be more focused on pounding away on the enemy than wrestling with him, the best scenrio is to fight your way up and stomp on the guys throat and head or bash his head in with an implement.

[African Tiger]

this is an ARMY H2H combat manual. :) Nuff said.

How's this for cute and cuddly? My uncle (USMC Vietnam) learned to bite out the adam's apple of his opponent in boot camp.

I guess too many burnouts were taking that knowledge to the streets, cause they stopped teaching that at Parris Island :o

[red5angel]

BlackJack - LOL doesnt sound out of character to me! Actually for a long time they really pushed religion period, although I doubt they are trying to push it now, or spirituality for that matter. Marines will always act out if they are in a bar, especially with squids!

I have heard a lot of bad things about MCMAPS as well, mostly its realy dry and alot of it is the opposite of intuitive. None of my buddies have opted for it, I know that!

[CD Lee]

Ok, so like, I am in a ground battle with my rifle and bayonet. The hand to hand starts, and I am back a bit from the first contact guys. When I finally get up there, what do I see? Fifty guys laying on the ground hugging each other in the guard. What would you do? I know what I would do if I was either the good guys or the bad guys.

I would look at a clenched up couple of soldiers in the guard, find my color, and stab or kick the other guy in the head. It would be like picking trash with a metal poker. If the enemy is in the mount, it is rifle butt in the back of the neck, end of fight. If the enemy is in the guard, it is trash pickin with the bayonett.

I do not see how you make it work on a hand to hand basis in a real multiple-man battle.

[Royal Dragon]

I still would not go so far though as to say our Marines are soft and girly, h2h is just a very small bit of there fighting ability, and I am sure there h2h instructors can hold there own, they have the aggression part down, and that's half the abttle.

Reply]
I know, I'm just being theatrical to stress my position.

[Black Jack]

Royal,

I know, I am just being a smartass:D

[Royal Dragon]

Me too :D

[David Jamieson]

Yep, there is stuff from the older manual in it but it is biased towards groundfighting.

Still it is not all bad when you consider it is not the be all and end all of h2h combat in the forces. There is plenty of material to be gained just from the instructors that is not in that manual. At least up here h2h is guidelined but not a "by te book" practice in any way. I'm sure the same is true with the b's and g's to the south.

I personally wouldn't put faith in the one punch knockout regardless of my training. Sure, it can be done, maybe even 9 out of 10 times, but what about the 10th guy?

Stopping the breath or the blood is the quickest way to end a fight. This can be achieved in a variety of ways and even without resorting to a choke hold.

peace

[Royal Dragon]

My point is Grappeling is NOT the best way to win a fight in every situation. Striking is a VERY powerful way to end a fight. Take a knee break, one good shot to the knee will end a fight too. Grapeling has it's place, but this "manual" is promoting BJJ to the core. It's dangerious for our soldiers. They need simple, to the point brutal killing techniques, NOT a huggie snuggly make 'em tap system.

I doubt the local Alquedia (We have a unit here in Westmont by the way) is going to NOT rip thier lips off becaue because he tries to make him tap, he's go to do it. A soildiers first instinct should be to Kill the alqueada.

[Black Jack]

Royal,

There are Alquedia cells in Westmont? Whats the story on that?

[rogue]

It's al Qeda.

According to one friend who did this, and praised the new manual for being more realistic, H2H comes more into play during urban or CQB ops. People pop out of odd places, there are non-combatants around, and you're more likely to get into a wrestling match in the hallway of an apartment than on a battlefield. This also matches with my dads experience on the NYPD.

Black Jack, the Krav Maga book is good, but is definatly the self defense version rather than combatives. The ideas are the same but the finishes are different, non-lethal.

[joedoe]

I didn't read the manual - just had a quick glance. I can see how grappling can be useful in a 1-on-1 CQB situation. However, do they also teach them how to use their rifles as a weapon (other than how to shoot) e.g. like a club?

[Royal Dragon]

I had an inciedent with one of thier units. My girlfriend and daughter were at the local Pizza Hut when about 14 of them came in and sat down at thtable across from us. They started staring us down and making comments in arabic. Finnaly the leader slams his hand down on the table and says "Long Live Osama Bin Laden"!! Terri almost jumped the table at him, I had to holder down. Were were greatly out numbered, and I had my only daughter iwth me. It was a tense night.
We ended up not even finishing our Pizza, and left. These guys were pretty rowdy, and even an arabic couple that had been seated just after us got up and moved to the other side of the resturaunt.

I called the cops on them, and they swarmed the place inside of 60 seconds (Fastest response I had ever seem in my life). I had made my statement on the cell phone when I called, and was clear to take off, so I don't know what became of it.

Several months later, we had secret service guys out to my apartment building investgating the apartment above us. Apparently Alquedia were useing the address for drivers licesense and plates and such. The couple that lives there had no clue untill the seacret service started poking around and asking questions. The cops have been cruising through my complex every few hours for months now.

There is most definately at least one complete unit here, with clear and defined rank structure.

[Braden]

BlackJack - Do you think you could find the old manual you posted here a while ago and link it up?

It's not just the groundwork, I thought the striking in this new one was silly too; at least compared to the old one. But I'm still blown away by the de-sentry method they showed. ;p

[Black Jack]

Braden,

I will go through my links and look, do you mean the 90's version of the Army Manuel or the 40's version of Get Tough! or Kill or Get Killed?

There were more than a few military manuels of that time period, for different branches, the most direct was the Silent Killing Sylabus for the OSS by Fairbairn, if we are talking the 40's, the 60's also had military training texts, Deal the First Deadly Blow was one, some believe it was actually by Dermont O'Neal, the WWII h2h instructor of the infamous Black Devil's Brigade, though I might have that wrong.

I will see what I can find to show the difference.

[Royal Dragon]

Do you have anything on the Farbairn Knife fighting system?

[rogue]

**** I hosed the name up too, it's al Qaeda.

Royal D, that sucks. Turns out there may be batches of them here in VA too. Though I'm surprised if they really are AA that they'd break cover that way.

Any body see any of the IDF version of Krav Maga?

[Royal Dragon]

We were almost alone in the resturaunt, even the manager was VERY nervious. I bet they never expected me to call the cops on em though:D I think they saw a typical american family, and figured they could intimidate them for fun.

Also, as far as "I" am concerned, it's spelled how ever "I" Say it is Alquedia is fine.

[rogue]

Well we could use the alternative pronunciation which is "vermin living a fetid existence who should never see the light of day", or the short version, scum bags.;)

"I bet they never expected me to call the cops on em though"
Used the old cell phone for self defense, good move.

[Black Jack]

Royal,

I will find the name of a book on the Fairbairn methods, real simple stuff, he used a time-table of death to determine how long a certain insertion or vital point cut would take the attacker to fade out.

That is some scary stuff with the terrorist cells, but for some reason a lot of people don't seem to get it, I saw a cover off a Hock Hochheim Close Quater Combat magazine, that simply stated the following in bright yellow letters, I think it sums it up perfectly.

Right now, someone is training to KILL YOU

What are you doing?


Rogue,

This is for you bud, I hope the Israeli fighting forces are using it now on some neighbor terrorists:cool:

http://147.237.72.31/Topsrch/defaulte.htm

Go to the search photo section-type in the catergory word knife- it will take you to some Krav Maga knife pics from the 40's.

Here is another and I know you will like this one,

http://www.kapa.net

[rogue]

Thanks BJ, definate western blade work there.

The KM book is a good addition to your combatives collection, goes over hostage situations, grenades, and automatics.

One thing that surprised me was it's use of a front kick to the head to counter a knife attack, and side & roundhouse kicks from a low almost crouching position. Seems very little is off the table. Going to try some of the defenses in class real soon.

[Black Jack]

Bang em out in TKD class, let me know if you can get them to work or not, Krav Maga has a interesting history and I hear some real good things about it, different things about different organizations though.

They have a core group of close quater skills but they also don't take the more creative aspects, as you have pointed out, off the table.

[Royal Dragon]

No, that's not how it went down, I got my family OUT OF THERE before is escalated into a situation. remember, I was with my only daughter, and girlfriend. Plus, becasue of the layout of the place, and my position in the resuraunt we were cornered and looking on a 14 on3 fight, with one of our 3 being only 11 years old. Don't get me wrong my daughter is tough as nails from doing gymnastics since she was 3, and Kung Fu with me, and Terri is a "Reformed" biker chick who stabed her last boyfriend, and was rummerd to have shot at people in the past and I have been doing Kung Fu in one form or another since 1989, so we were NOT the typical American family these goons thought we were, but still 14 against 3 with the fight starting with US being already cornered? No way I was going to let that happen.

I figured it was better to get out first, let them feel all big and bad for scarring Americans. Once outside, I was outraged at my inability to do anything and grabed the cell phone. The cops got there in LESS than 60 seconds. Terri having grown up in Humble park was used to cops showing up HOURS later, sometimes even days. She was shocked at the response time.

No, the cell phone was no selfdefence thing, it was an act of retribution because I was not in a position to defend myself or my family any other way than running. What I did was a 'tactical" retreat, and a counter attack by calling renforcements. I never expected the Westmont police to swarm the place though, I just wanted to let them know what was going on. I got out of there before it all went down though. Last thing I wanted was to get in the middle of a gun fight or something.

[Leonidas]

So h0m0-erotic dry humping's made it into the military manual now has it? That be funny if it wasn't so embarassing. They gave in to the hype, but then again the military isn't exactly known for it's decision making skills, atleast not good decisions :D. badump bump.

Anyyywho I say we go back to gutterfighting, add in about 5 or 6 high percentage "drop you on your head" Shuai Chiao throws, some more neck breaks and throat attacks, even some finger, wrist, and shoulder breaks, ground escapes training and you have an army manual. See, what did that take me, like 30 seconds. That'll get any grunt into the "inner animal".

[guohuen]

In real combat people on the ground get bayonetted. Nuff said?

[JWTAYLOR]

I think many of you are forgetting the role of the modern Army. And by "modern", I mean the army of the last 40 years.

The simple fact is that we have many instances where American soldiers will be presented with situations in which they have unarmed, but uncooperative civilians attempting to hinder American soliders in operations for myriad reasons. Many of those operations are "peace keeping" missions. For those, sometimes civilians want to antagonize troops into using force.

In those instances,

it is d@mn handy to have troops that have learned a single leg, a mount, a choke or two, things to control an unarmed target without having to result to shooting him.

That is the primary reason to learn "submissions".

Also, it's not just bad PR to go around shooting civilians because they are hindering your efforts. It's also bad war. As we learned in Vietnam, when our soliders were left with little training, bad, bad scenarios, and no support, soldiers tend to do what they are trained to do. They shoot. THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, many killed civilians. That turned many civlians who were otherwise ambivilent towards the U.S. pressence against us. The VC ranks swelled becuase the U.S. could not identify and deal appropriatley with often unarmed, confused civilians of minimal threat level.

Teaching troops to mount and choke out a hysterical woman is a good idea. It beats not teaching them anything and hoping for the best.

JWT

[rogue]

"What I did was a 'tactical" retreat, and a counter attack by calling renforcements."

Exactly, excellent self defense move. Your cell allowed you to call in reinforcements to stop any potential attack against your family.


"I got my family OUT OF THERE before is escalated into a situation. "

That's high level self defense. Don't confuse fighting or combatives with self defense. Self defense, or in your case bodyguarding, is escaping with as little injury as possible. All that you do mentally, verbally and physically are to make that goal possible. Running away is the one of the first options, fighting one of the last.

Fighting and combatives are different, they are meant to engage someone, defeat someone, to win. Running away is a last resort.
Police and military must engage, civilians do not.

You did real good and should use your example as a text book case in your classes.

If you had used the best technique in the combatives manual you'd still lose and your family would be in bad shape.

[Leonidas]

Maybe the military should make a special crowd control division instead of teaching there fighting forces so many useless subs. Like their version of Riot Police since their so dead set on policing other nations which is a questionable decision in its self. Since this is what people call the modern military maybe its time for changes like that. You cant teach someone the fighting spirit and how to kill but then tell them not to hurt anyone for fear of bad PR, thats oxymoronic and defeats both purposes. Everyone and their mother knows that you fight like you train, but the Military can't seem to figure that out. H2H has to be hardwired into the brain in case of emergencies, it cant be turned off and on for a civilian versus and enemy soldier or is not supposed to be.