Why study Martial Arts???

[Mr.Sleazy]

OK so here is my first crack at getting a friendly discussion going.

Why does everyone here train in their particular MA? Is it for self-defense, fitness, self-fulfillment, etc...

To get things rolling, I will put what I think are my own reasons. I just started my training 3 months ago, and when I first began I thought it was for the old "self-defense" reason, with a bit of fitness and socializing thrown in. But its much more complicated!

After I was in it for a while, I started thinking more about my motivation for learning MA. Basically what I am doing is learning how to fight better, not necessarily to defend myself. If I wanted to "defend" myself, I could buy a gun (even though it is illegal here in Canada) or could just train running away. Not to say MA has no self defense benefits, but it is not really what I am training for after all. I am learning how to fight.

I am a man. I think there is something fundamental in a man's physiological and genetic makeup that predisposes him to fight with other males. In the distant past, men would have competed with each other for food, territory, and mates (still do, really) and much of that competition would have been in the form of fighting. I am not a particularly violent individual, but there is something very "manly" in at least being able to fight.

Not necessarily in actually doing it, but in having the potential to do so. I think that a man should be to some extent dangerous to other males, should be percieved as dangerous to other males, and perceive himself that way as well. Having said that, I promise you that I don't just go around thinking of fighting all the time.

This is sort of the romantic notion of fighting as a duel between individuals. Hand to hand combat, mano a mano. Even if I never fight someone, it is good to know that I would be able to do so if called upon or motivated. Makes me feel like more of a man. This gives me a greater sense of power. So, for example, at work someone higher up may give me a hard time. I can think "well, I could always just beat him up". Of course, I would not actually do that. But I know that I could, and this is empowering.

These are just my own humble reasons, and will prob. change as I learn more. Everyone else will have their own fundamental reasons. Any thoughts? I would be especially interested in hearing a female perspective on this, because it may be so different from my own.

[Lice]

Although there's a bit more to it than just this, I'd say a principle reason for me is exactly what you just described. Well worded.

[red5angel]

As much as it is not so politically correct to say it, I want to fight, just as you stated. Some people likr to fight, look at boxing, those guys like to fight, its what they do for aliving. I am not going to go out and pick fights with random people off the street, better to test myself in the ring, but ultimately, I like to fight!

[Fu-Pow]

I have two question for you:

1) How old are you?

2) What style do you train?

The answers to your question are out there. I might start by reading two books the Lao Tzu and Sun Tzu's "Art of War."

Just because you posess the power to inflict injury does not mean that you necessarily are going to use it or for that matter to let other people know that you are dangerous.

[Merryprankster]

1. It's fun.

2. It's a sport, so beatdowns are sanctioned.

3. It's fun.

4. I like fighting.

5. It's fun.

6. I don't mind getting hit as much as I thought I would.

7. It's fun.

8. I no longer have to wonder if I can "do it."

9. It's fun.

10. Did I mention it's fun?

[red5angel]

MP - I would like to add that: Its Fun, in case you missed it.

[Mr.Sleazy]

Yeah it is fun!

Also scary sometimes, sparring with some big guy fists-a-flyin.

And yes, there doesn't need to be the desire to use the martial skill developed, but to have the potential is pretty cool.

Is there anyone who does train primarily for self-defense?

[shaolinboxer]

I train primarily for self defense..but in the broad sense that we discussed a few days ago.

Training for stright up H2H combat is different than self defense, me thinks.

[No_Know]

For the sake of the Art.~

[Liokault]

I train primarily for self defense..but in the broad sense that we discussed a few days ago.


I think its funny when people say they train for self defense.

My main reason for saying this is that besides every thing else you are likely to get much more injured by training than you would leading a normal life with the normal risk of fighting.

In my 12 years of the gental art of tai chi i have broken 1 bone and had a really scarey knee to the groin that made one testicle grow to humerouse proportions (took me three days to go to the hospital and when i did they were rewal scared and poped it with the biggets hyperdermic needle i have ever seen).

In my 12 years i have seen and taken and put so many guys in hospital my self that i can not belive that anyone would really see that the risk of injury in class is less is ok against the chance that they may get in a fight and their training may help then come out un injured.


P.S did a quick count up of the tai chi class i attend and almost half the regular guys (not counting the women) are nurseing injurys....mostly brused/broken ribs.

[mortal]

I practice so I can beat others when they disagree with me. ;)

[Nevermind]

Although like anyone I am interested in practical self defense, I chose kung fu because of its wholistic approach to training. By this I mean building internal and external strength. If I were only interested in self defense, it probably wouldn't matter much to me what style I studied. After all, it's one's approach to training which determines whether or not a style is good for self defense. The beauty of kung fu forms has fascinated me since I was a little kid. The fact that something so beautiful and flowing could hide such powerful fighting techniques was even more intriguing. The health benefits to me are more or less a residual side effect of training. I could have achieved good health at the local gym. I guess I chose martial arts because it allows me to work towards mastering myself, both physically and mentally. I see the kwoon as a sanctuary. None of my negative qualities (bad temper, laziness, procrastination, messiness) have a chance to be shown when I'm at class because I am so focused on training. Its probably the most positive environment I can think of. Ok, I'm rambling. Peace!

[Mr.Sleazy]

Hey Fu-Pow:

To answer your questions I am 32 and train a mix of BJJ and Muay Thai.

My school is not really a "self-defense" school, it is more training for competition, so admittedly that will affect my mindset and motivation. There are a few self-defense techniques that are part of the curriculum (eg choke defense, lapel grab defenses etc..) but the main focus is learning to fight.

Liokault:

I hear you!! I have already sprained my ankle, and I think may have cracked a rib taking a knee (my own fault, overzealous sparring). I thought Tai Chi was supposed to be all nice and "soft"? I would never criticize someone taking MA for self defense, but its not really the main reason I do it.

Nevermind:

Yeah the self-discipline angle is one that I thought a lot about too. Training teaches you discipline, without it you won't improve and will quickly be discouraged.

But discipline can be attained in many other ways besides a combat art. Fitness too.

Mortal:

You hit the nail on the head with your short post:

"I practice so I can beat others when they disagree with me."

You stated so that you can beat others down, not that you DO beat others down. We are all developing the potential to hurt someone. MA training is all about making an individual more dangerous to an opponent. I think it is good to be dangerous.

[mortal]

I said that as a joke but there is truth in all humor. I would only fight someone if they attacked me. Not just with words. Words just make me laugh. Actions need to be countered. My old sifu would say" Sometimes you have to teach lesson".
I think the better at fighting you get the less you want to hurt others. Its almost like you know its unfair and you have nothing to prove.

[Fu-Pow]

To answer your questions I am 32 and train a mix of BJJ and Muay Thai.

Hmmmm.....just as I suspected. Your answer lies at the heart of Chinese martial arts and philosophy (I say Chinese because that seems to be the root of at it all.) In every true martial art there is a civil and a martial side. "Systems" of martial arts developed not only as means of developing combat skills but as a means to develop a strong body and mind and become a more virtuous person. In other words to become "enlightened." The martial arts that you train in (ie BJJ and Muay Thai) tend to lack the other more philosophical aspect of training (notice I say "tend to" because ultimately it is up to the teacher). Instead they favor the "no nonsense" approach of fighting and learning "useful" techniques.

This is all well and good, but they have missed one the most important lesson of all. That is better to win by not fighting at all.
This lesson is at the root of all martial arts. This concept is very old stemming from Taoist thought and the writings of the genius military strategist Sun Tzu.

It is kind of paradoxical. By the time you learn how to fight, you've also learned how not to fight. I believe this concept should be at the core or every martial arts curriculum. If not the teacher is not doing his entire job.

And part of learning how not to fight is not to appear intimidating to other people or to make them "fearful."

[ReverendTim]

I first started studying MA when I was 13 or so because, not to put too fine a point on it, I was exactly the kind of chubby nerd that was a magnet for beatings. When I was 15, I ended a fight with one BEAUTIFUL front kick that dropped the other guy in a heap, and I haven't been in a real fight since then.

Now what's weird, psychologically, is that I think I train now still because of what happened way back when. I mean, I'm a grown man and obviously, I'm not getting into scraps out behind the school building anymore, but for some reason, it's important to me to be the *kind* of person that isn't going to take a beatdown and not fight back, you know?

When I went looking for my (kind of) current school, my sifu asked me why I wanted to do wing chun...was I looking for exercise or spiritual development or what? And I made myself take a good long time to take stock and be honest. I can jog and lift weights for exercise...I'm a very spiritual person regardless of kung fu...

I realized then and I stand by it now: I want to know how to FIGHT. I want to have that kind of spirit, for lack of a better term, that if and when someone comes at me, my first thought isn't, "Oh, crap! I hope he doesn't hit me!" Rather, I want to be able to look them in the eye and think, "Okay, then. Let's do this, you poor *******."

--
Rev. Tim

[Mr.Sleazy]

I see your point, but I have to disagree with one part of your post, the generalization about teachers:

"I believe this concept should be at the core or every martial arts curriculum. If not the teacher is not doing his entire job. "

Maybe so but as a consumer, when I signed up for MA lessons I am paying to learn how to fight. Teaching me other things is teaching what I have not necessarily asked to learn, although it may be quite worthy.

To be honest, I feel pretty enlightened in my own life already, but I understand why someone might seek it out in a MA training atmosphere. Just not for me.

Even full-out sportive arts like boxing still have a spiritual aspect, in that they are training "spirit" - who can fight without it? Thats all the enlightenment that I am seeking.

[Shadow Dragon]

Now take this with a ladle full of Salt.

Having studied a few systems. I think that BJJ, MT and similar styles specialise too much on the Fire Element for training/fighting.
Most MA can fit one of 4 or 5 Elements, some use more or all of them.

Here is how I was taught the Elements:
Fire - burning, scathing everything in it's path, total destruction, etc. Merciless until there is no more Opponent.
Wind - You presence can be felt, but you can never be touched, grasped. Your attacks swirl around the opponent and will strike with a large swift force like a Storm.
Earth - Solid as the soil, unmovable as the mountain. Your Opponent will come up against you but cannot move or dislocate you.
Water - You flow around the Opponent, he can see, hear and feel you. But wherever he strikes it is wielding and soft. Attacks come with the force of a river in torrent.
Void - The beginning and end of everything. A fighter using this element creates a situation in which there is no fight or no need for a fight.

Most good MA will in their training at different stages use the 5 Elements.
Once the 5th Element(Void) has been mastered, one has gone beyond MA.
Each of those Elements has their own training, center of gravity, mediation, etc. But to be really good you will need to be able to switch back and forth between those Elements.

Peace.

P.S.: The 5 Elements are not listed in a particular sequence.

[Mr.Sleazy]

Hey so if your are just transitioning between Earth and Water, are you in the 'Mud' element?

And is the wind/earth transition 'dust'?

[David Jamieson]

These are not the same five elements that are found in many styles of Kungfu.

The Chinese 5 elements are

wood, metal (gold), water, fire and earth.

I haven't heard of "void" as an element though it does pertain to Taoism as in - "We cannot call it void, nor can we call it not void, but for the purpose of pointing it out, we shall call it void" - Lao Tzu

Wind is an element in some cultures and it is even used analogously in Kungfu concepts (Dragon rides the wind, etc).

What style uses the elements you have listed?

peace

[Shadow Dragon]

These are not the same five elements that are found in many styles of Kungfu.

Actually they are, each of the 5 Elements that you listed are representative of the other 5.

The 5 Elements can be found in anything:
ex:
Strength(earth)
Cunning(Water)
Ferocity(Fire)
Dexterity(Wind)

Metal would be representative of the "void" for Martial applications, specifically used in techniques to stop/slow an attacker.
Simply different ways of interpreting translating the same thing.

Peace.

[rogue]

I do it to make myself a better person, to raise above my baser self, to acheive oneness with myself and my fellow humans.

[David Jamieson]

This is a stickler for me Shadow Dragon.

How do the elements you listed map across? What is wood represented by in the structure that you list?

Metal(gold) is representative of a few things, like cutting, rigidity, tensile strength and the other traits inherent to actual metal.

As for the original topic, I practice martial arts because I can't do needlepoint :D

Just kidding, it has always been a practice worth pursuing to me. To make ones health better and to have self defense skills is a pretty good endeavour for anyone.

peace

[Tae Li]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
I have two question for you:

1) How old are you?

2) What style do you train?

The answers to your question are out there. I might start by reading two books the Lao Tzu and Sun Tzu's "Art of War."

Just because you posess the power to inflict injury does not mean that you necessarily are going to use it or for that matter to let other people know that you are dangerous.


Good point, we should not get in the process of actually corupting the sport/art/style etc...

There is no harm in pursuing martial arts as a way of self fulfillment in terms of dicipline, strength, confidence and balance of well-being etc. and although sometimes you cannot help but NOT avoid feeling all powerful and mighty becuase you have the skill to inflict injury towards another human being or because you want to be "The Man", you still have to accept responsibilty for your present actions or future intened actions, because you ARE in fact representing Martial Arts, so not just on behalf of yourself, but fellow Martial Artist around the globe. Just a thought.

Tae Li;)

[yenhoi]

I train so that one day I can go kick all the asses on my ass kicking list.

Also I am with Kung Lek and would like to see Shadow Dragons explanation.

[joedoe]

I am also with Kung Lek - I am interested about the 'other' five elements and how they relate.

As an aside, is there any relation between the Chinese 5 elements and the 'western' (for want of a better term) 5 elements?

Why do I do martial arts? Originally it was for health, but now it is just a fascination. I was never really that interested in fighting to be honest. Also, sparring can be like a high speed game of chess, and this is good because I haven't the patience to play normal chess :D.

[Merryprankster]

Shadow--

No offense, but BJJ is water by your listing. Clearly water. It envelops you, flows around you, cuts you off at every corner and then... you drown in a series of attacks.

[guohuen]

I think he's referring to the five elements in ayurveda.

[David Jamieson]

The "western" elements number 105 (?) and consist of minerals, gases and so on.

Not the same as the descriptives used by the ancients.

There simply isn't a "nobelium punch" :D

Although methane tactics are a considerable deterent if ya get my inference hahahaha.

peace

[shaolinboxer]

I can come up with ways I think my practice helps me and call those reasons. But thining about it, I have forgotten why I practice. I just seem to love it.

[scotty1]

I practice martial arts so I can fight. Everything else is a bonus that is available elsewhere. Although its nice that health, spirituality and being able to fight can come in one sweet little package.

[Mr.Sleazy]

Shadow -

If you box with someone who is very good at slipping, bobbing and weaving, they are "wind" because it is so god**** hard to hit them, even if they aren't trying to hit you. Its amazing, actually.

Scotty1 -

Yeah its pretty simple, isn't it? I am in it to learn how to fight. Doesn't mean I will fight, but just want to know how.

I can sort of understand the spiritural development angle, but its not why I'm in it.

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon

Fire - burning, scathing everything in it's path, total destruction, etc. Merciless until there is no more Opponent.
Wind - You presence can be felt, but you can never be touched, grasped. Your attacks swirl around the opponent and will strike with a large swift force like a Storm.
Earth - Solid as the soil, unmovable as the mountain. Your Opponent will come up against you but cannot move or dislocate you.
Water - You flow around the Opponent, he can see, hear and feel you. But wherever he strikes it is wielding and soft. Attacks come with the force of a river in torrent.
Void - The beginning and end of everything. A fighter using this element creates a situation in which there is no fight or no need for a fight. [/B]

For those that asked this 5 element system is based on Esoteric Buddhism (Mikkyo), made up of the Shingon and Tendai sects. It is also the basic of Steven K. Hayes Toshindo system which is his creation based off Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (a collection of 3 Ninpo arts and 6 other classical Japanese systems) + his studies into Mikkyo.

[JusticeZero]

Read my sig.
I prefer to feel very free.