Horse stance

[Phenix_Eye]

How long can an good person at Wushu do the horse stance for?

I, myself don't do anything like that, but can only do it for about 4 minutes. (with a pole on my lap)

[Royal Dragon]

My best was 10 minutes

[Xebsball]

I did 9, but i didnt do comtemporary wushu.

[Phenix_Eye]

I am talking about people who compete and do demostrations.

How long do you think they could do it for?

[BigCountry]

half hour

[Royal Dragon]

I suck, and I did 10 minutes, so at least double that would be a minimum, probually more like 30-40 minutes

I know guys that claim a full hour though.

All are traditional

[Fu-Pow]

Depends on if they are doing it correctly or incorrectly.

[straight blast]

I would suspect that they could do it for a fair amount of time. When I was training JingWu/Choy lay Fut it was compulsory to do 20 minutes horse stance at the start of every lesson. Most of us could do it after a month or two of training every day. You feel pretty fatigued afterwards when training at first though i.e. legs shaking, rubbery muscles, etc.

My point is if I can do 20 mins every day of the week then a professional Wushu player should be able to do it a lot better. :)

[No_Know]

An hour is standard for being Good.

[joedoe]

I must really suck then. :(

[scotty1]

Me too. I must suck MAJOR BOTTOMS. 2 mins approx.
But then I only train it once or twice a week.

[David Jamieson]

Well, my sifu is very strict about fundamentals and all his students have pretty good horse stance. Many a bead of sweat has fallen to the floor in his kwoon :D

One of the sets he teaches (Hak Fu Gong Lik Kuen / Black Tiger Power Generating Fist) spends a great deal of time in the horse stance. When learning the set, it is a killer to get through, but after a year or two the horse stance is improved greatly.

His lion dance teachings further improve the horse stance in the practitioner, especially the training part!

I honestly haven't timed myself, but I do spend about 20 - 30 minutes performing the set I mentioned.

peace

[Tvebak]

In my experience theres a lot of difference in the horse stances in different styles...i used to do it in af wery wide open version, and thats faily easy.
Now in my internal MA class we are learning a very narrow horsestance, much harder:)
Ive never really timed myself in any of these stances.
Am i the only one getting pain in the knees from vide horse stances???

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you guys are nuts. i'm gonna be rust for a little while yet, but at my best i can hold a medium horse indefinately or a full horse for only about 2 - 3 minutes max.

[mortal]

Nine out of ten horse stances I see were people hold are wrong. If you mean a horse stance were your thighs are paralel with the floor and your knees are not over the toes and your feet are straight(not pointing outward). I could do it for 5 minutes. Most people point the feet out making it 100 times easier. With toes pointed out you could be pushed backwards easily.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i have heard that some styles actually prefer this though. it's one of my sifu's pet peeves, but i have heard people on here say that there are advantages to it.

[chingei]

30 minutes. only did that once, though

[fa_jing]

I'm up to 4 1/2 minutes, thighs near-parallel to the ground.
Daily, unless I am doing other leg exercises.
It's taken me a long time just to get to this point, but I am finally making progress, I feel I will be able to add 1 min per month until the end of the year, at least making it to 10 min daily non-stop.

I think once you build up a certain level of strength in your legs, it gets easier to add time. Then it becomes more of an endurance exercise. For instance, to build from 10 to 11 minutes, is a lot easier then building from 1 to 2 minutes.

I'm also having an easier time now, because my knees have stretched and strengthened enough so that they are not causing pain, they are no longer the first thing to give out.

My structure is only just getting to be correct. I am extending my spine from top to bottom. Finding just the right amount to push my hips forward. I've noticed that this taxes my stomach muscles, not enough to tire me, but I can't do as many crunches after horse practice as before.

I'd say I have a mediocre horse stance, functionally speaking. At this level of strength, a very low horse would be pretty impractical for using in fighting. Not enough spring up potential.
My mid-level horse is pretty good, though.

10 minutes would be minimum to consider myself proficient. 30 minutes is my goal, and I expect to reach this in about 2-3 years. I've been training Kung Fu for 3 years, but I've only seriously been training my low horse for about 1 year or less.

Still, the bullsh!t detector is flying off the meter right about now. Because I think guys with good horses can hold this 10-30 minutes or more, but not right off the bat or within 6 months as people seem to claim. RoyalD, I read your posts on Russbo, really cool and good information. I know you guys trained really hard and focused on this exercise. But, somehow I think you guys weren't low enough or something. Maybe I'm wrong. And Straight Blast, that's just outrageous.

I know that in my case, I've had knee and back injuries, and it was important to proceed moderately at the beginning. That's why I say, I've only been seriously training my horse for a year, because it's actually been 2.5 years since I was taught this stance. And I could barely do 5 minutes now. I'm not overweight, my leg muscles were not weak to begin with, in the past I've run 10 miles in under 75 minutes, and a long time ago I used to work out at 225 pounds on the squat. I'm young.

Basically, I feel that right now, I'm ready to add 5 minutes to my horse within 6 months, but no way I was able to do that when I started out.

-FJ

[Phenix_Eye]

It shows the beginning of the compitition then cuts to the end with very few people left. It doesn't say how much time has elapsed.

http://www.uswushuteam.com/misc/2001_arizona/

so I wonder how long they did it for.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i have never timed myself, but i know that it took me at least 4 months of semi - daily practice to even get up to around two minutes.

[Fu-Pow]

Here's what I consider a good horse stance:

http://www.hungkuen.net/images/stance-seipingma.jpg

Not too low. You'll notice that the toes point forward but the crotch is opened so that knees are over the ankles.

Here is the worst horse stance I could find on the net...

http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~bpj31078/pics/ST-squarehorse.jpg

The knees are "collapsed" meaning the knees sit inward of the ankle joint. The feet point outward. The stance is too wide. I fore see knee problems for this guy in the future.

[fa_jing]

Here's a horse stance I admire:
http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajiandfight.html

You'll notice that the knees stick out in front of the toes. It's a different way of doing it.

When I practice, mine is a little wider and just a bit higher than this guy's.

-FJ

[Fu-Pow]

A little narrower than I've seen before but the structure looks good.

[JerryLove]

So then we are not discussing "thighs parallel to floor" stances? How high then?

I also agree that width makes a difference, and weather te butt is tucked makes a differrence. The only thing I have a time for is a Bagua hand set at thighs parallel (always low, but shifting weight). I can do the set at parallel (about 15 minutes).

[SevenStar]

I was wondering that too

[Merryprankster]

And the ignorant MMAist comes blundering through... :)

Why are you doing this? I'm genuinely curious. What is it good for?

And as far as the ultra-long times, I'm just assuming that that is kind of a "hey, who can hold it the longest?" type thing, right? I mean, is a person who can hold it 30 minutes "better," than a person who can hold it 20, or just specifically better at holding a horse stance?

[Braden]

MP - I can only speak of my own practice - which, going from what I've seen discussed here and elsewhere, as well as what I've seen, is considerably different than most (particularly external stylists).

The main purposes of the standing practice are postural structure and relaxation.

The posture/relaxation combo is the basic engine/requirement for technical skill. You can actually cut through the mumbo jumbo pretty easily like this: What do you do if you want to train a way of standing? Well... stand!

Somewhat longish times for training simply allow you more time to practice the peculiar relaxed posture, as well as further challenge your ability to relax.

I can say that I felt the effects of the practice after my first serious session, and that (especially at first) it seemed to have more of an effect on technical proficiency than any other practice.

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

In what way did it enhance your technical proficiency?

Guohen--Define Jing.

[Braden]

Power and responsiveness.

[Merryprankster]

Power I can gather--in what way did it help your responsiveness? Or more precisely, what exactly do you mean by responsiveness?

[Braden]

Confident, relaxed, easy movements. The opposite of clumsy. Dedicated without losing any ability to adapt. Increased sensitivity to external pressures.

[kungfu cowboy]

It's like you start out as the scarecrow and then become the robot.

[Merryprankster]

Ok, Braden, fair enough.

Can you hypothesize any reason as to why these technical improvements may have come from the stance training?

[Braden]

It's not just the horse stance (again, this is just the practice I've been taught; probably not what many of these guys are talking about), it's a whole body thing. There's a number of things all over your body that you are trying to do. I can be specific if you'd like. They train a kind of stretched, relaxed, holistic strength of the body.

[Xebsball]

hey sup MerryP

I know stance training have tons of theorical explanation but i dont really know much of that.

Basicly for me it develops resistence on the legs and gets you used to the disconfourt that you might have when using techniques that require such stance or others that are somehow related. In my style for example we use our main stance like all the time, so its good to be very well used to it.

[Merryprankster]

Braden--Now, THAT makes sense!!!! It's not just the stance--it's moving in and out of the stances and focusing on specific criteria as you do it as well as the specifics in each particular stance--is that right?

[Braden]

Well... there ARE dynamics of moving in and out of the upper body changes in the practice I've been taught, which are very important. There's also alot of stuff that you're working on even when you're standing still though. It's not a matter (in my practice) of simply holding a posture and sweating it out for a certain period. It's a very active and very demanding practice, even if overtly you don't seem to be doing anything.

[Leonidas]

I thought the purpose of the horse stance was to build leg strength, and the way that instructors tested if it was correct or not was to kick up into your crotch :eek:. If it was right then theres no pain but if it was wrong then you probably ended up on the floor in a fetal position.

[Merryprankster]

I kind of know what you mean--I had to do enough freestanding "benches" in certain hazi.... errr, um, physical discipline during my time at the Academy to understand that proper alignment is the key to holding it, and that that sort of thing is an active, constant process. I remember distinctly having to learn how to take the stress off my quads and hold myself up from the "inside out," as it were... :)

[Braden]

For instance, in a posture like this http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/Article_Photos/Reasons_Photos/1.jpg the various postural requirements are being worked on. Press the crown. Suspend the head. Tuck the chin. Press the teeth. Lift the tongue. Hang the shoulders. Spread the scapulae and lats. Relax the spine. Hang the elbows. Twist the forearms. Press the wrists. Spread the palms. Extend the fingers. Spread the lower back. Settle the pelvic girdle. Lift the coccyx. Spread the feet. Connect the knees. Relax the eyelids. Soften the gaze. Active hearing. http://scheele.org/lee/classics.html This page lists what are called the "taiji classics" which are writings which discuss alot of this. Above all, you relax.

In a nutshell, there is a downward feeling from your body relaxing. And an upward, coiling feeling from your body stretching. And the root of the strength is from the interplay of these.

If you look at a basic guard stance like this http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/visit/visit29.jpg there is a drill you can do to get a feeling for this kind of strength. Adopting this kind of a stance, get someone to push gently on any part of you at any angle. Resist the push, in the sense that your body isn't pushed and your posture stays the same. But do it with the stretchy upward and relaxy downward instead of by tensing up. If you're doing this, your partner can release the pressure on you by surprise and you won't "spring back" towards him.

It's not that this is a martial technique. It is a way to experience in your body the kind of thing you're going for to develop this kind of integrity of strength in your body.

[Merryprankster]

If you look at a basic guard stance like this http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/visit/visit29.jpg there is a drill you can do to get a feeling for this kind of strength. Adopting this kind of a stance, get someone to push gently on any part of you at any angle. Resist the push, in the sense that your body isn't pushed and your posture stays the same. But do it with the stretchy upward and relaxy downward instead of by tensing up. If you're doing this, your partner can release the pressure on you by surprise and you won't "spring back" towards him.

I understand this pretty well--this is how you DON'T get taken down when wrestling from the clinch :) Can't tell you how many times I've had to "relax into something" to avoid something awful :)

[Braden]

These people http://www.neijia.com/ and their mailing list http://neijia.anu.edu.au/ approach the subject in a manner which alot of people find approachable.

I don't buy the "horse stance for strong legs" thing. Squats seem like a much better answer.

[Braden]

"I understand this pretty well--this is how you DON'T get taken down when wrestling from the clinch Can't tell you how many times I've had to 'relax into something' to avoid something awful "

Yeah! That's a great example. Imagine a conditioning exercise for that feeling, and extending it out so you can apply it to all sorts of different angles and positions, and using it to move and yield, and even push, pull, and strike with it, and of making that come naturally and reflexively. Of course there's lots of drills and other stuff too, but the foundation is standing practice.

[Leonidas]

Think about where the horse stance came from, hundreds of years ago in China so even though we have knowledge of squats today they are a huge part of many styles either in the forms or builds the strength requirement to do certain movements and people want to train traditonally so they practice whats in the cirriculum. If people want to do squats for leg strength they go to a Gym instead of a TCMA school but they wanna learn kung fu so they practice what their taught. I remember reading one of the requirements for a good Hung ga stylist was to hold a horse stance for as long as it took a stick of incense to burn out which is a couple hours atleast, so i think it has something to do with leg strength. That was a couple hundred years ago, I sure as hell cant do that.

[Braden]

I'd be very surprised if they didn't know about squats in china.

Although I respect your view regarding traditionalism, I would suggest an equally valid view is that 'traditionally' teachers wanted their students to achieve certain goals as effectively as possible, and would be quick to support changes to this end. Historically, there is certainly alot of evidence for this.

[Merryprankster]

Braden--

you wanna know something funny? You hear people in BJJ talk about the "newest moves from Brazil," all the time--new, new, NEW!

And if you talk to Michael Jen, a well respected instructor on the West Coast, he'll tell you that his instructor, Joe Moreira, when shown these "new moves," says he saw them all years ago :)

Kinda funny, yeah? :) It's all the same stuff, just "rediscovered."

I'm not entirely sure how that relates, but... :D

[Leonidas]

Just think of it this way, squats are one way to strengthen legs, horse is another. Just like theres a dozen plus excercises for every single muscle, and the plus side is your training while learning your style. Your probably right about them most likely knowing squats but thats what i know the horse is trained for.

[scotty1]

That's interesting about developing a good posture and stretching your upper body at the same time as building endurance and strength in your legs Braden. I don't fight using horse stance but use it as a conditioning exercise. It has improved my kicking power I think. Of course I do it in conjunction with running and squats so I couldn't assess it in isolation, BUT I'm sure it has helped.

The reason I think that is because as my kicks have improved the structure and length (of time held) of my horse stance has improved as well.

So there seems to be a direct link for me. Visually, horse stance training seems to have developed my thighs also.

I do think that one has to be very careful with the knees though.

The style I learnt horse in was Lau Gar, and we learnt with the feet pointing outwards. Maybe in Lau Gar it is not fought with?

It does seem to be easier on the knees to have the feet pointing slightly outwards.

[Braden]

Leo - From my point of view, I see a few problems with approach horse stance as primarily an exercise to build muscular strength of the legs. Firstly, muscular relaxation is a prerequisite for the postural/relaxation training mentioned above, but is contrary to what you would do if you were focusing on building muscles. Secondly, if you were focusing on the muscles, isometric exercises done in isolation are not particularly good for you (except as rehabilitation or in a similar circumstance). Thirdly, 5-10 minutes spent squatting twice a week have given me more muscular strength gains than 30 minutes spent standing six times a week, so the efficiency trade off is pretty steep. Finally, things like squats, pushups, and the like actually all have traditional chinese analogs; for example see the books qigong empowerment or xingyi neigong.

I don't mean to disrespect your view or training. Like I said from the beginning, this is all simply in terms of what I have been taught and experienced.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Braden
In a nutshell, there is a downward feeling from your body relaxing. And an upward, coiling feeling from your body stretching. And the root of the strength is from the interplay of these...

Adopting this kind of a stance, get someone to push gently on any part of you at any angle. Resist the push, in the sense that your body isn't pushed and your posture stays the same. But do it with the stretchy upward and relaxy downward instead of by tensing up. If you're doing this, your partner can release the pressure on you by surprise and you won't "spring back" towards him.


OK, I get this. Very well put. And I agree, but...

Merry, how does this fit with:


Originally posted by MP I understand this pretty well--this is how you DON'T get taken down when wrestling from the clinch Can't tell you how many times I've had to 'relax into something' to avoid something awful "

Am I misunderstanding the dynamics of 'relaxing into something'? I understood this kind of thing to be relaxing your full body weight into a position or onto your opponent's stance to render yourself less moveable, or to get him to overbalance with yourself in a superior position.

Merry, could you explain a bit more about how this relaxation is a two-way energy thing, not 'just' sinking...

Cheers.

[Merryprankster]

Here's the simplest thing I can think of--when somebody tries a back arch throw on me, like a salto or a lateral drop I sag forward, and drop my hips in the opposite direction of the turn. I've always done it, instinctively. Unless they've done a very good job of loading me properly (and some do---WHEW!), they generally land with me on top of them.

There are other applications. For instance, if somebody tries to snap me down, then I let my waist and neck and knees become flexible (I relax them). It's like a shock absorber in this configuration, rather than an overbalanced rigid beam that you can tip over. Think of a springy type thing with just enough--but not too much!--give. It keeps your feet from freezing to the mat.

This keeps my balance properly, and doesn't pull me out of position, where I have to post my hands to keep from falling forwards, or trying to throw my weight onto my heels to avoid it.(NOTE: You have to use your hands to keep them from anklepicking you at this point).

If somebody tries a fireman's carry throw, I'll relax and let them S T R E T C H out my upper body as far as they can, trying to post the trapped arm (on the mat, on them, maybe not at all, whatever) while keeping my center of gravity back with a sprawl type maneuver. Instead of overbalancing my wieght onto the leg they are attacking and coming up underneath my center, now they are simply tugging on my upper body without being underneath me. This makes an enormous difference in the efficacy of the takedown--it buys you the precious moments you need to effect a counter attack. You're really making me think---I've always just thought of it as "flattening out," but I guess there is more to it.

If somebody has your arm in a tight overhook on the ground and you have to get it away, you limp arm, turn your palm upwards and use your body, to yank it free. If I'm in a collar and elbow tie then the arm that is on his collar is relaxed. If I tense up, he can read my movements. When it's loose, he doesn't know where I'm going next. What's more, if I'm tense, then I can't read what his weight is doing next either.

The trick is learning what to relax and when to relax it--and when not to.

I guess the best way to explain it is not to think that relaxation means being a limp rag doll. It means not tensing unnecessary body parts.

[Gabriel]

do you guys do the same horse I do? 30 minutes before class everytime??!? :confused:

We have to hold our thighs parallel to the ground with a stick on the top of our legs to make sure we stay level. Our legs have to be just past shoulder width with feet planted and toes pointing straight ahead and not angled.

My take on this is either you guys are doing it differently than Im used to(wider stance, no requirement for parallel thighs), or just straight out fibbing.

Gabriel

[Gabriel]

Oh, and your ****ed skippy that horse excercises the legs. And its a different strength than that acquired from weights. I advocate a little lifting as well, but not as a substitute for horse. thats just silly. ;)

[Mr Punch]

OK Merry. Got it so far. That's what I thought. We do it a lot in aiki too. Excellent description thanks!!

Here's the however however! You are talking about SOMEBODY ELSE taking you one way with an attempt at a throw/drop, and you keeping your weight/centre of balance down through relaxedness. I think Braden was talking about YOU YOURSELF GENERATING a coiling upward energy at the same time...

is that not a bit different?

If someone is trying to throw you and you relax into it, your stance is dropping through your hips, and you are relaxing your upper body to maintain a connection to this root, NOT generating a different direction of energy.

So lets change the question a bit. As an mma-ist, how would you explain the difference between rooting as a grappler and rooting as a striker? Is there one? I think so, and I think this is important for understanding horse practice, and any moving stances...

[Merryprankster]

Not really--I think Braden and I are using different terms to describe the same thing.

If you just had that downward energy, you'd collapse. The upward energy helps you maintain what's going on (or counterattack). The best example is the snapdown that I was talking about--if you were to just "let it go," then you'll get your head snapped down to your ankle and get taken down. However, by using your body as a "shock absorber," you both bend with the movement and maintain your structure--like a spring. There is EXTREMELY minimal movement when I do this right when somebody tries to snap me down. I don't spring upwards or fall over downwards. I maintain my balance and stance (it's actually a great opportunity for a countershot...).

I can't speak for Braden, but I'm betting that's the type of thing he's talking about--maybe not specifically that instance, but the type of thing nevertheless. However, I don't see how that is much different than his comment below. I really think we're talking about almost identical principles here:


Resist the push, in the sense that your body isn't pushed and your posture stays the same. But do it with the stretchy upward and relaxy downward instead of by tensing up. If you're doing this, your partner can release the pressure on you by surprise and you won't "spring back" towards him.


Is there a difference between rootedness for striking and grappling? There doesn't have to be, from what I've found. Base is base. Either way, I'd better have my balance and my feet underneath me. My wrestling stance wasn't all that different from my boxing or thai boxing stance. I could get away with more "odd" movements in wrestling because I didn't have anybody trying to hit me, and I didn't have to worry about generating power at all times from all angles. But the fundamental stance isn't that different. I can sprawl and do takedowns and what not out of my boxing stance as well as I can out of a wrestling stance--as a matter of fact, I really can't find much of a difference at all. I would suspect that if they really were different, then I would have a problem switching from one to the other. As it is, I don't have to switch anything.

[Kilik]

I can hold Ma Bu for about 15minutes, that's with feet parallel and thighs nearly parallel to the ground(need to work on that hip flexability) but Sepingma only about two minutes as the stance is wider and the pressure on hips is immense.

I found a cool link that really breaks Ma bu down to physiology and to the amount of time a practioner should hold it

http://www.wutang.org/articles/mabu_mabustance.html

[Mr Punch]

Thanks Merry. Seems to make sense, not sure I agree...

Gotta go though, maybe I'LL BE BACK!:mad: :D

I'm not talking about downward energy, I'm talking about keeping your centre of balance down by redirecting your weight through your stance, so you wouldn't collapse anyway! I agree that collapsing usually isn't the finest martial strategy ;) !!

And sure thing, base is base, but your base in grappling is designed to resist being destroyed from any direction and to provide redirectional, non-forced strength (usually downward, or in an up- and downward circular motion) to use your opponent's energy to destroy his base. Your base in striking is to provide direct force up and out through your weapon, whilst retaining some degree of fluidity to change stance, evade and enter maintaining your weapon delivery capability and a transitionally stable base.

So, the horse is to develop two way energy which is useful (as you said) for relaxing in a grappling situation, or to provide a stable base for a solid strike (needing a rare situation where evasion is not necessary) or a solid defence. you don7t find a problem moving from one to the other because you are trained in both! The striking stance is essentially a moving stance with a very temporary root so that you will pass through the grappling stances anyway (from your basics basics basics in training!).

I don't think you're doing takedowns from an unaltered boxing stance are you!!? You are surely changing to a wider, more stable base, and dropping your centre and your (connected) opponent's centre, at the point of delivery?

Just a couple of thoughts, I don't mean to tell you what you are doing :eek: :D !!

Later.

[Merryprankster]

I can shoot from my boxing stance. I can sprawl from my boxing stance. Close in, if I use my wrestling skills from the clinch, the stancework isn't that much different. I still have to be mobile and I still have to maintain my balance when I do it. Will it always look like a "boxer's stance" at that distance? No. But my wrestling stance didn't look exactly the same at shot distance as it did when I was in the clinch either, so I think that's reasonable.

I basically don't see much difference between the two, structure-wise. They are virtually identical at the starting point. This is what I mean by base is base. Good balance and structure are good balance and structure. The same thing that keeps me from getting pushed over in wrestling is the same thing that keeps me from getting knocked down in boxing. It's the same thing that allows me to shoot or throw a right cross quickly and efficiently.

Now, this is a comparison between boxing and wrestling--note in my earlier post that I said they don't HAVE to be different--but I'm betting there are some things out there that ARE different.

[scotty1]

MP - "they generally land with me on top of them"

Sh!t dude. That doesn't sound like fun (for them)

Braden-

"From my point of view, I see a few problems with approach horse stance as primarily an exercise to build muscular strength of the legs. Firstly, muscular relaxation is a prerequisite for the postural/relaxation training mentioned above, but is contrary to what you would do if you were focusing on building muscles. "

Yeah, if you're trying to build muscles you tense. But you can build relaxed strength in your legs from horse stance, for sure.

Even though you should be relaxed, your legs are bent nearly at a right angle and holding you up, so there has to be tension in the muscles surely? If you hold that position until you can endure it no longer your legs will be stronger, and the muscle will develop.

I fail to see how you can stand in a good horse stance without making your legs stronger.

And the benefit is that you build strength and endurance in a relaxed position which means you can apply that strength without having to tense up to do it.

Horse stance training and squats I find are mutually beneficial.
Each has its own benefits. Maybe horse is not as good at building strength, but it has the postural benefits outlined above.

"isometric exercises done in isolation are not particularly good for you "

Many people have recommended isometric exercises to me, why are they bad for you? Is it the thing about too mcuh strain on the heart?

[Braden]

"Yeah, if you're trying to build muscles you tense. But you can build relaxed strength in your legs from horse stance, for sure."

Yeah, but most of these guys are tensing like mad. ;)

"Even though you should be relaxed, your legs are bent nearly at a right angle and holding you up ... your legs will be stronger, and the muscle will develop."

Sure. I never suggested horse stance training doesn't build strength in the leg muscles. I suggested that if what someone wants is strength of the leg muscles, horse stance training isn't an ideal answer. And if someone is doing horse stance training, maybe they should look for something else going on other than trying to build muscle.

"Horse stance training and squats I find are mutually beneficial.
Each has its own benefits. Maybe horse is not as good at building strength, but it has the postural benefits outlined above."

Exactly! :)

"Many people have recommended isometric exercises to me, why are they bad for you?"

Increase blood pressure. Decreased innervation, vascularization, cellular metabolism of the muscle. Decreased contraction speed. Decreased range of motion. Strength is highly range-of-motion-dependant. Joints and bones are not exercises as adequately as with other exercises.

They should be fine as a supplement to a healthy routine though.

[scotty1]

Dude. I like your style:)

"I suggested that if what someone wants is strength of the leg muscles, horse stance training isn't an ideal answer. And if someone is doing horse stance training, maybe they should look for something else going on other than trying to build muscle. "

Yes!! Muscle is built, but you are missing out on the other benefits, by which I assume you are referring to the posture you build? Is horse good for your back?

[Braden]

"by which I assume you are referring to the posture you build?"

And relaxation, and all the secondary benefits thereof.

"Is horse good for your back?"

With the other postural requirements, it's great. I have lower back problems (not to mention a slouch from years of habit!) which are both gradually getting better from practice. They'd probably really get better if I practiced as much as I should! *note to self!!!* ;)