What do you think?

[black and blue]

Gnugear - writing on the Wing Chun forum says: "I never quite understood why Xingyi is considered an internal style... and not Wing Chun.

"When practicing soft Wing Chun it cultivates much of the same internal chi. On the external side it does not rely on force ... so what's the difference?"


The internal is the domain of you guys. What do you make of this? Anyone here know of/studied WC in addition to your Xingyi?

Thanks

Duncan

[dwid]

My old sifu called wing chun an intermediate art, a combination of internal and external. He said the power generation in wing chun was very much internal.

[crumble]

How much does wing chun use the legs and spine to generate striking power? I've seen some open/close of the spine, but do the legs spring as you punch?

Water Dragon loves to talk about power generation. Hope he'll get in on this. (Mostly because I learn something new each time!)

-crumble

[Water Dragon]

Sorry, never been exposed to Wing Chun.

But... Fajing and I are going to be working out 1 or 2 days a week right off the corner of Michigan and Van Buren. Care to come?

[guohuen]

I think all CMA are very internal at the highest levels. Internal and external are really just convenient words for starting points.

[Kumkuat]

Do external CMAs really do become internal in higher levels? Well, no one really knows. I do believe that they will get some internal qualities in them, but they will still use external strength to add to whatever small internal stuff they got. Beside, how can an external artist become internal if they've been external most of their life? Even some people who study internal arts with a good teacher are still moving 'externally' after many years.

[dedalus]

Compared to bagua and taiji, I think there's a lot of muscle tension in wing chun. This was quite apparent to me when I returned to do some chi sau at my old w.c. school after about 18months of bagua. I also think that too much strength generation comes from non-postural muscles for w.c. to be considered internal - a tired example would be wing chun chain punching, but much of the dummy form also reveals this (take a closer look next time!). My feeling is that more emphasis still goes into the strengthening of the limbs rather than the waist and deep muscles of the trunk, and that this is refelcted in body mechanics. I didn't discovered the concept of moving from dantien until I moved into the traditional internal styles. To this extent I also can't help but to think of wing chun as a young person's art - I know that wing chun practitioners like to say that w.c. proficiency lasts into old age, but I've never myself met an elderly pratitioner. Now I know that statement will cause some controversy!

Having said all this, I was a student of a relatively "hard" wing chun school (in the tradition of one of Yip Man's sons) and I haven't studied xingyi closely. Perhaps a more circular wing chin would use the waist to greater effect (?).

One final thought - wing chun comes from Shaolin, which is the home of external martial arts. It may very well have absorbed taoist influences over the years, but I am one to view the internal/external distinction in its historical context. In my opinion other differences arise secondary to this.

[black and blue]

Many thanks for the posts - really interesting.

There is a Wing Chun saying that goes along the lines of "The waist and stance are united", and I think most varients of WC stress that a good stance and good rooting are the key to developing powerful strikes.

"Sink and Pull" - is also something often heard in our club, stressing we should sink lower in the stance and pull in the knees to a fist, fist and half distance apart.

I'm not sure what to say regarding chain punches, as I think they are too often used in the wrong fashion. Punching is usually (where I train) connected to our stance pressing forward, or from a pivoting action (which is entirely dependent on the waist and hips).

I also try hard (it isn't easy :)) to not use muscle power when punching, but try to rely on good structure, and a relaxed arm. The fist, naturally, tensing at the moment of impact and then immediately relaxing again.

How do you guys define 'internal'? (sorry, that sort of dumb-ars*d basic question must really irritate you chaps).

Duncan

Oh, and a quick edit :) Regarding circular motions - most defensive/attacking techniques/motions are circular in nature, rarely 100 per cent linear.

[crumble]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by black and blue
[B]I think most varients of WC stress that a good stance and good rooting are the key to developing powerful strikes.

"Sink and Pull" - is also something often heard in our club, stressing we should sink lower in the stance and pull in the knees to a fist, fist and half distance apart.

Punching is usually (where I train) connected to our stance pressing forward, or from a pivoting action (which is entirely dependent on the waist and hips). [B]

Okay, here's my two cents. When I read the quotes above, I hear (I'm not saying you are actually saying this, it is just what I get from it...) But I hear that you hold a relatively fixed "stance" that you "sink" into, and that the punch is directed by the waist and hips.

One part that is different than hsing i is the "stance" aspect. In hsing i, the punch includes a very dynamic springing of the legs. This is where A LOT of the power comes from.

The spine also opens and closes. Which is to say that at the start of the punch, the spine is shaped like a "C" with the top of the body rounded forward. When punching the spine straightens out, adding more power to the punch.

It seems like leg and spine power are missing from what you described. Hope that helps.


Water Dragon: Do you know what days yet? I have class Tues and Thurs. The other thing is I have been comming in early and leaving work around 4pm. I could adjust that, though. But I do have a lot to practice these days... Well, can I give you a definite maybe? Whether or not I join in a regular practice -- no matter what, I would like to check in with you guys and see what we can share. Let me know as things shape up!!!

-crumble

[black and blue]

Hi - thanks for the reply. What you say makes a lot of sense and I can see where the power would come from with regards 'springing' and the 'spine'.

We keep our spine pretty straight throughout. Most strikes being very short-range, and most steps (forward or angled) being short as we tend to get in close to our opponent and stay within the 'smell-their-breath-range' :D

Wing Chun is often said to be external, but when compared to other external arts, there seems to be almost no tension, simply a moulding to our opponents shapes, and relying on structure, reflex, sensitivity etc to overcome brute force.

Xingyi and Bagua facinate me - would love to train them. If any of you guys know of anywhere in London, UK where the instruction is of a high quality... PLEASE TELL.

For those of you who haven't seen any Wing Chun, you too should try and find a decent club and take a look. Maybe you'll see more of the similarities if they do indeed exist.

[Water Dragon]

Crumble,
we;re meeting tomorrow (Thurs) at 5:00 at the Art Museum by the Lions. I'd like to workout once or twice a week between 5 and 7. Personally, I'd like to go out to the park and do some sparring. I'd really like to taste your Hsing Yi.

We may jsut do Tui SHou or standing Qin Na. I'm cool with whatever as long as we train consistently.

Let me know, we can probably juggle schedules somewhat.

[crumble]

WD,

I've done a little more thinking and I could only meet regularly on Weds. night. Monday night is my last chance to perfect stuff before going into my Tues class. Wednesday I'm usually exhasted and don't feel like practicing, so it might be good to mix it up with you two. Thursday is a class. And Friday my girlfriend and I always have a dinner date, and hell, it's my reward for surviving the week.

So, if Weds. works, I could be a regular.

-crumble

ps - By the way, not much to taste of my hsing i. I've spend the last 6 months punching the air. I've only learned the stepping drills for two elements. And my beng chuan got massively corrected last night... but I'll share what I've learned.


Black and Blue, for some reason I think there were people talking about London schools on www.shenwu.com 's discussion boards

[fa_jing]

Hi! Well I might as well weigh in on the thread topic. Wing Chun has many clans. Not all generate power the exact same way. But, generally, Wing Chun doesn't use any spinal bows like in TaiJi, or like in Xing-Yi or Baiji. Is Wing Chun internal? Depends on your definition, I understand that many Chinese don't classify styles in this way. WC is often considered an internal/external art. Sometimes you are hard, I wouldn't say you are soft ever, but there is a lot of yielding. Redirection and control are emphasized over hard blocking. The legs definitely spring when delivering a punch, we push off with the back foot, and a slight twisting of the legs, hips, and waist add to the generation of power. I think the most internal aspect of this is the turning of the hips, something which we practice constantly. This action is created by a combination of leg muscles, muscles of the lower abdomen, and muscles in the area of the lower spine. We don't do much waist twisting movement, I'd say that that waist transfers power more than is a source of it in the Wing Chun system.

Thursday will be fun. We'll pool our knowledge, train. Do you think they'd let us spar in the park? So many cops around. I doubt it. We might have a better chance in my building, maybe later in the evening. The worst that could happen is they might kick us out. Anyway, I am going to look for a focus mitt today. First I want to make only moderate noise in the exercise room, to see if there is any reaction from the maintenance workers, then gradually increase until the point where we might be able to put on the gloves. Believe me there is plenty to train with or without equipment, but consider that we might be busy mining knowledge from each other in the first few sessions.

-FJ

[Fu-Pow]

I'm working on theory here regarding this very question.

I think what differentiates internal/external is springiness. Or rather the level of springiness.

It's not that external arts don't have springiness it's that the springiness doesn't go "all the way through" as in the internal arts.

In other words there is still localized tension that prevents the completion of a "true spring" which goes all the way through to the ground.

Taiji trains to be like a big loose spring to start and then gradually makes the spring tighter and smaller. You start off with the large springy movements with Peng energy.Then as the spring gets tighter and smaller you can execute Kao movements.

Xing Yi starts out with the spring much smaller and tighter.

I don't know enough about bagua to extend this analogy.

Wing Chun may have many of the same elements as internal but it probably is not going to get to the level of connectedness to make the spring.

This, of course, says nothing about its effectiveness or applicability, that is up to the individual I think.

[Kumkuat]

Wing Chun, if it does have internal aspects (which I found none when I learned it) is probably one of those external/internal hybrids like bajiquan, tongbei, etc., But wing chun is still not categorised as an internal art, but baji sometimes is. Anyway, at high levels, wing chun probably uses some sort of static 'peng' energy as a base and adds some external stuff like local muscles to power the movement. So it doesn't really have the pure connection as it's suppose to.

Also, the power generation of wing chun (in my experience) is not a store-release type power, it's more of a twisting (like how almost all external arts do it) of the hips type power.

Besides, internal does not mean soft. Taiji is a soft internal art and xingyi is a hard internal art. It doesn't really matter, I believe internal arts are not any better than external arts. Some external masters, with correct conditioning, can make people fly away with a single punch-- just like some of the internal guys.

The springyness concept is an interesting one fu-pow. Did you get this from Li Tai Liang?

[Rockwood]

Black N Blue,

Chris Chappell teaches BK Frantzis's Bagua in London. www.skychord.org.

-Jess

[Fu-Pow]

No, just my own reading and research and many, many discussions on the kung fu forums.

[Zantesuken]

well you can't really say one is better than the other it's totally dependant on the individual.
when people say internal they often think of things like hip power and so on.

when you think of soft wing chun, even hung gar at high level is internal. same with shoalin. any type of CMA will get your chi running and it will useable in a fight. Maybe not to the extent of high level tai chi but it's still there.

I guess you can say things like Tai Chi, or Xing Yi. Actually your insides do generate power for you. Power comes from your organs, along your bone, comes from your spine, bottom of the feet.

In Xing Yi it comes from the head, shoulders, elbows, hands, waist, knees, feet.

Externally people can still use chi. Look at the high level karate masters in okinawa. They can do the same sorts of stuff Shaolin can do because karate basically is taking out of Shaolin.

I guess you can think that external involves you building force through developing muscle. Internal arts develop force through ging and hei.

[dedalus]

Maybe you could think of bagua torqueing the spring rather than compressing it from top to bottom? Similar result but different strategy.

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks, that makes sense to me from what I've seen.