Ryu's ontopic post

[Ryu]

Figured I'd start posting posts relevant to martial arts.


This post might even be geared more for grapplers, so I may post it at Mousel's....

Many of us have heard grappler's say "I train groundfighting so I don't have to fight on the ground in the street." That sounds good, but do you think someone who's main style of fighting is BJJ or Wrestling will really avoid the ground at all costs in a real self defense situation? Obviously we all cross train in boxing, etc., but if a grappler spends most of his time training how to takedown, get postition, etc. Don't you think that mindset will naturally take over in a stressful situation?
How true is that statement "I train groundfighting so I don't have to go to the ground?" I'm not talking about someone less skilled trying to take YOU down...but more a person who is much more skilled in his hands then you are. Will you take it to the ground then?
Leaving all sport vs. self-defense nonsense to the side, do you think the statement "I train grappling but would never go there in the street" from a grappler, is a fallacy? How realistic is that statement? What would you do as a grappler in a self-defense situation? Punch? If so why not devote more time to boxing then you do to grappling? This is purely a self-defense scenario post. Although many grapplers say they have used just grappling in self-defense situations before and it worked just fine.
(I know I have personally)

The question probably doesn't have a real answer, but thought it might be interesting for discussion. Enjoy.

Ryu

[red5angel]

I am not a grappler Ryu but I do believe that you generally fight how you train.

[Water Dragon]

Here's my theory:

If I can deal with an experienced grappler who can sweep, pass guard, has a good guard game, and a variety of subs from all positions, how much trouble will I have on the street against someone with little to no ground game?

I'm thinking I shouldn't have much of a problem doing nasty things to him from full mount or knee-on-stomach.

IMO, that's also the reason Shaui Chiao and Muay Thai work so well :D

[chingei]

Originally posted by Ryu
"I train groundfighting so I don't have to fight on the ground in the street." "I train groundfighting so I don't have to go to the ground?" "I train grappling but would never go there in the street"
Ryu

I think it is b.s. that people say in reaction to all of the input from hysterical tkd-types who scream "you can't go to the ground or his friends will hurt you!". As if these friends wouldn't dream of interfering while you are standing. All bravado aside, a group of 3-4 people who have even a remote idea of what they are doing and are fully intent on doing you harm...sayonara.

People will and do go to the ground, especially if that's where one of them wants to be (has trained to be)

if you are worried about dirt and glass and ****, you shouldn't be fighting in the first place. If you are surrounded by enemies, you should be shuffling off to Buffalo. If you have an advantage, you will take it regardless of what you might say in calmer moments.

[Badger]

You fight how you train. So train real.

Ive seen point-tournament only karate guys forget everything in real fights.





Badger

[crumpet]

i think it's just an excuse for grown men to roll around on the ground with other men. :D joking!

it's like the saying 'i train in martial arts so i don't have to fight.' an oxymoron to say the least, but basically you train so you know how to avoid/control those situations. if you have the misfortune of getting into a fight, then you are at least in a better position than not knowing martial arts at all. you will either have the skills to avoid the confrontation, or the skills to control it and come out on top. so if a person is training in groundfighting so they don't have to groundfight, i wouldn't take it THAT literally. :cool:

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i'm not a grappler, but i sure do like sandwiches.

[Water Dragon]

Another thing. Now, let me qualify this first. I understand that no one ever gets in a fight in a bar or nightclub, and I also know that if that did happen the crowd would automatically run away so that you have room to maneuver.

But...

Let's assume for a minute that you did get attacked in a crowded bar (I know it could never happen but play along with me)

In theis case you could definately slam someone into a wall or even a crowd of people and work at least Americanas, arm triangles. and gi chokes (And yes I also know that people never ever wear jackets, coats, or flannel shirts so the gi choke thing is a moot point as well)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Cingei said:
_________________________________________________
I think it is b.s. that people say in reaction to all of the input from hysterical tkd-types who scream "you can't go to the ground or his friends will hurt you!". As if these friends wouldn't dream of interfering while you are standing. All bravado aside, a group of 3-4 people who have even a remote idea of what they are doing and are fully intent on doing you harm...sayonara.
__________________________________________________

Frankly, people are more emboldened when you are on the ground - they are more likely to attack you. They also have the impulse that because you are on the ground, you are less able to defend and thier friend may need trouble.

One on one, grappling gives a real, humane way to disable an aggressor.

In a real brawl, I just don't buy it. Not from watching a lot of sporting events, but from watching a lot of brawls. I don't discount groundwork (I really enjoy Sombo), but I am more concerned with my bladework, because humans are tool using animals, and if all you worry about is going to the ground, you missing out on where ther fight really is in the street. However, you will still be formidable to unarmed opponents that do not have friends around.

[DelicateSound]

IMHO - In a fight the LAST place you want to be is the ground. Kerbs do hurt. If the guy has mates you're f*cked, and if he has a weapon and gets an advantage you are dead. IMHO the best thing to do is to learn to stay standing, and to end it there.

And if he's beating you standing up - run.

[chingei]

Originally posted by DelicateSound
IMHO - In a fight the LAST place you want to be is the ground. Kerbs do hurt. If the guy has mates you're f*cked, and if he has a weapon and gets an advantage you are dead. IMHO the best thing to do is to learn to stay standing, and to end it there.

And if he's beating you standing up - run. If the guy has mates you're f*cked
regardless of where you are



and if he has a weapon and gets an advantage you are dead.
regardless of where you are

the best thing to do is win, however you may be equipped to do so.

[chingei]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Frankly, people are more emboldened when you are on the ground - they are more likely to attack you. They also have the impulse that because you are on the ground, you are less able to defend and thier friend may need trouble.



if you start beating on their friend standing, they will jump you as well. if not, they are pussies anyway and not worth worrying about in any case.

fights end up there, you better **** well know what to do when you get there.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by chingei


I think it is b.s. that people say in reaction to all of the input from hysterical tkd-types who scream "you can't go to the ground or his friends will hurt you!". As if these friends wouldn't dream of interfering while you are standing. All bravado aside, a group of 3-4 people who have even a remote idea of what they are doing and are fully intent on doing you harm...sayonara.

People will and do go to the ground, especially if that's where one of them wants to be (has trained to be)

if you are worried about dirt and glass and ****, you shouldn't be fighting in the first place. If you are surrounded by enemies, you should be shuffling off to Buffalo. If you have an advantage, you will take it regardless of what you might say in calmer moments.

Once you go to the ground you no longer have the option of "shuffling off the buffalo". Plus you can no longer defend yourself well against anyone who attacks you after you first opponent. Multiple opponent fights do not have to be 4 vs 1 they can be 4 vs 4 as long as one guy on your side gets taken out of action someone on you side will have to deal with more than one opponent. Plus if you take your opponent down before his buddies are ingaged with fighting your buddies you will have to deal with more than one opponent again!

its safer to use striking plus throws. At least in the chinese style throws i know if you perform them properly your opponent wont get up for a little while. Take this throw for instance http://www.shenwu.com/yangtchnq.htm
This would take a couple of seconds to perform but after performing it you could charge another guy/ shuffle off to buffalo.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


its safer to use striking plus throws. At least in the chinese style throws i know if you perform them properly your opponent wont get up for a little while. Take this throw for instance http://www.shenwu.com/yangtchnq.htm
This would take a couple of seconds to perform but after performing it you could charge another guy/ shuffle off to buffalo.

if you're not prepared to go to ground, you have no business throwing.

[guohuen]

I train for ground fighting and to avoid it . If you've ever had your face kicked in you'd know why.

[Grappling-Insanity]

Well I got in a fight with a guy who had about a group of 30 friends behind him. In that fight I fell to crossbody bottom wise and still made it back to standing. The way I look at it if there gonna jump you, there gonna jump you pretty much no matter what.

[Stacey]

Its really too bad that no one ever thought of a way to immobilize an opponent while standing.

Its also too bad that no one created techniques specifically for multiple opponents.

It seems like you would need a combination of fast liner and large swinging attacks. You would need a strong base and smooth footwork to get around people.

It would also help if you knew how to throw one guy into another using body controls


Its really too bad that no one figured out how to fight this way. Oh well, looks like we have to start from scratch.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by chingei


if you're not prepared to go to ground, you have no business throwing.

Whether or not someone has training on the ground has nothing to do with the fact that it isnt a good idea to try to go to the ground against multiple opponents, the point i was trying to make.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


Whether or not someone has training on the ground has nothing to do with the fact that it isnt a good idea to try to go to the ground against multiple opponents, the point i was trying to make.

not a good idea to stand up with them either. or play football with them, or run a relay race, or play poker, or hold a political debate, etc.

[straight blast]

Take this throw for instance http://www.shenwu.com/yangtchnq.htm

I had a look at that throw and I have to say that while the throw is good what is the story with the "punch" that the assailant threw? Even with the defender stepping in it still would have fallen about 2 and a half feet short of the target. Why is it that almost every Tai Chi (no disrespect, I love TaiChi) photo sequence involves defending against a punch that isn't even going to come close to hitting? Why not show a sequence where the punch looks like it's going to take the defender's head off. Is it a TaiChi ettiquite thing (serious question). It makes the technique look unrealistic.

[rogue]

Who here has actually fought in a bar brawl?

[scotty1]

ok three things.

1/ This topic (not blaming you Ryu, I know you wouldn't do it on purpose) is basically an invitation (which has been accepted) to discuss whether or not it is a good idea to go the ground or not.

Boring, discussed that.

I see the subtle difference between what you wanted and what you got though.

2/ Where are Merry's posts calling Stacey a freaking pr!ck?

Were they removed in a fit of guilt at all the bad feeling, or was Merry (:eek: ) MODERATED?

3/ No I have not been in a bar brawl.

4/ I like sandwiches too.

[Merryprankster]

Removed out of guilt--I freely admit it. I decided to throw him on my ignore list instead.

In the words of Colin Powell--get mad, then, get over it. There's no reason for me to have been that non-constructive. It doesn't ultimately accomplish anything, and I regret that I did it.

[Paul]

see the thing is, when someone is getting beat down, and they are going down, they tend to want to grab onto something on the way down. You may not have a choice about going to the ground. get real. S h i t happens.

and yes, rouge, I've been in bar fights.

[Kristoffer]

I've see martail artist get in fights with mulitple oponents and win .. It takes the right mind to do it though, and some luck combined with alot of skill :D


Punch elbow throw move to the next, repeat..

[Gabriel]

Well, I believe you have to be highly mobile in a multiple attacker situation, provided you get in one in the first place, which I discussed how to avoid in another post. so, if you can be mobile on the ground, more power to you. In my kwoon, we practice very low stances, so we are practically on the ground anyway. My Sifu's teacher came to demonstrate for us one time and he got into his horse and challenged everyone in the class to try to move him. Whether it be with rooted pushing, charging, shoving, tripping, takedowns, ect., the man could not be moved an inch. Then he demonstrated speed. He is greased lightning. A guy like him, I feel can take on multiple attackers with ease, as he did with us just trying to move him, imagine if he attacked back! :eek: also, I've taken on two guys back when I was in TKD. I used very simple techniques to win. I punched the aggressor in the stomach to drop his guard around the chest neck area, then i went for a one arm choke with my right arm. Then, with my left leg I fended off the second guy with a few kicks. When the aggressor was gasping for breath and seemed less strong I squeezed a little tighter for good measure, then released him he fell to his knees. I waited for the other guy to throw a punch, then I sank a bit and lunged to the right, dodging his punch, and throwing a reverse punch to his jaw all in the same motion. Simple stuff. Thats the advantage we MA'ists have over average joes. Simple stuff works against them as opposed to all the fancy techniques that are basically used to fight other MA'ists who know how to protect against the reverse punch, or a simple choke. Well thats it for me. As for my Sifu's teacher, I have know idea how he can be so rooted unless he had lead underwear on :D

Forge Virtue and Honor in the hot fire of Hard Work

Gabriel

[DelicateSound]

if you start beating on their friend standing, they will jump you as well. if not, they are pussies anyway and not worth worrying about in any case.

If you go to the ground you leave yourself open to BAD **** - like kicks to the head. Stay standing and you are at a better position to look around and run if needed.



if you're not prepared to go to ground, you have no business throwing


What bullsh!t - you throw him to the floor and either kick him about or leave, why jump on top of him? Only go the the clinch if you absolutely HAVE TO - it is a disadvantaged position. This is no UFC match - this is a bar, broken glass on the floor, weapons probably, and mates around.


It's good to be trained in groundfighting in case it does go there, but IMHO it is mostly about size, weight and strength. Keep it in the range you are best at.

[chingei]

Originally posted by DelicateSound


If you go to the ground you leave yourself open to BAD **** - like kicks to the head. Stay standing and you are at a better position to look around and run if needed.



if a bunch of people want you done, you're done. Unless they are of the "gosh I wouldn't want to soil my fine garments on the dirty floor. Oh dear, there may be shards of glass that could cause a nasty infection. shouldn't we set some rules before we begin?"-type pussie, in which case they are not really interested in fighting and may be disregarded.

If you can run away from a group, they have let you run. or they are all as slow as me.

[chingei]

Originally posted by DelicateSound


What bullsh!t - you throw him to the floor and either kick him about or leave, why jump on top of him?

A telling comment indeed. If you had ever actually rolled the dice on a throw when it counts you'd know that they don't always work out the way you had planned. especially when environmental conditions are uncertain. when a throw doesn't go the way you wanted, there is a very good chance you will find yourself on the ground. if you are not prepared to deal with that likelihood, don't throw.


or be nice to people and don't get in fights. :D

[DelicateSound]

Chingei - you are trying to argue the use of throws in a fight to an ex Judo man here pal! :)

Throws are fine, they are VERY effective, especially as many people have no experience of them, and just expect to be punched. They will break sh!t.

Yes, if a throw is messed up you probably will end up hitting the floor too, but don't lie on top of the guy trying to armlock him for Christ's sake. He just HIT the floor, you stumbled to it. Get off your knees and stamp on his face for f*cks sake!! :D


Throws are fine as long as:

A) He ain't a big fukker.
B) He's off balance. Disorientated is good - punch him a bit.
C) You can. The move must be ingrained. But same for most sh!t I guess.



However, it is crazy to go to the ground unless necessary.


You said:


if a bunch of people want you done, you're done

You're talking 2 different situations here mate:

1) You fight a guy and know he has mates. You can see them. They WILL baste you if it gets messy. Answer: Run.

2) You're fighting a guy and his "not so good mates" or associates don't like what you're doing to him. You never saw they were his mates, you just thought they were neutral. All of a sudden they kick off.



No. 2 is VERY common. Especially in territorial areas [footy pubs...]

Now in this situation, where is the better point to be in terms of awareness, vision, ability to exit pronto, ability to hit other opponants? Yep - standing is MUCH better for this.




No?

[chingei]

Originally posted by DelicateSound
Chingei - you are trying to argue the use of throws in a fight to an ex Judo man here pal! :)

Throws are fine, they are VERY effective, especially as many people have no experience of them, and just expect to be punched. They will break sh!t.

Yes, if a throw is messed up you probably will end up hitting the floor too, but don't lie on top of the guy trying to armlock him for Christ's sake. He just HIT the floor, you stumbled to it. Get off your knees and stamp on his face for f*cks sake!! :D


Throws are fine as long as:

A) He ain't a big fukker.
B) He's off balance. Disorientated is good - punch him a bit.
C) You can. The move must be ingrained. But same for most sh!t I guess.



However, it is crazy to go to the ground unless necessary.




it is crazy to fight if you don't have to. if you will/have to fight then win, period. if you aren't prepared for the consequences, don't fight, period.

a throw is not necessarily 'messed up' because you end up on the ground. I thought you said you were a judo guy.

you can't imagine circumstances that will keep you on the ground for awhile?

don't throw bigger guys? that's half the fun! where is the judo in that statement?

he's off balance when you make him so.



if you got game on the ground, go there and do your thing.

[DelicateSound]

it is crazy to fight if you don't have to. if you will/have to fight then win, period. if you aren't prepared for the consequences, don't fight, period.

I agree. But this isn't about the option to fight. Although it's very easy to say "win". It ain't always that easy. Although it is good to have that mindset.

a throw is not necessarily 'messed up' because you end up on the ground. I thought you said you were a judo guy.

No it's not. Not in competition terms. However, it is NOT good to go the the ground in a fight. So it ain't perfect. Not "messed up" per se, but you get my drift.

you can't imagine circumstances that will keep you on the ground for awhile?

Of course I can - a resisting opponant who knows his stuff. But after hitting the concrete hard after a well timed O-Goshi surely he'll be stunned long enough for you to stand up from a kneeling position. No?

don't throw bigger guys? that's half the fun! where is the judo in that statement?

From my experience, the only throws proven effective on BIG guys [I'm talking 6'4 250pds here] are sweeps, trips and loin throws. No seio-toshi from me on a big-un. Yes the centre of gravity is effected and with GOOD unbalancing it can easily be done. However, I'm out of practise. No risks from me here.

he's off balance when you make him so.

If you can. Not always that easy. Sometimes you're fighting just to block, evade and strike, nevermind clinch/hold, unbalance and throw. Against a big guy the clinch if badly done is fatal.

if you got game on the ground, go there and do your thing.

Why? The "game" on the ground is stuff like breaks, chokes etc. Arm breaks are GREAT, but hard to get, and chokes unless carried through fully will just wind him up further. Trust me. People go NUTS to avoid a choke - it's a life or death instinct reaction. In contest I've seen people turn into Tigers.....

My "game" would be to get up. Then I'm in an advantageous position - I can strike from a superior height advantage, and can run to escape or to get a suitable weapon if needed.

[chingei]

Originally posted by DelicateSound


[B]a throw is not necessarily 'messed up' because you end up on the ground. I thought you said you were a judo guy.

No it's not. Not in competition terms. However, it is NOT good to go the the ground in a fight. So it ain't perfect. Not "messed up" per se, but you get my drift.

what you train to do brings you to the ground, but in execution you will somehow take that part out? unlikely.


[after hitting the concrete hard after a well timed O-Goshi surely he'll be stunned long enough for you to stand up from a kneeling position. No?

I wouldn't bet my ass on it.



From my experience, the only throws proven effective on BIG guys [I'm talking 6'4 250pds here] are sweeps, trips and loin throws. No seio-toshi from me on a big-un. Yes the centre of gravity is effected and with GOOD unbalancing it can easily be done. However, I'm out of practise. No risks from me here.

ah, go on. its fun to try


[Against a big guy the clinch if badly done is fatal.

against a big enough guy everything is fatal.


if you got game on the ground, go there and do your thing.

:D

[chokeyouout]

Two points;


Why does everyone think there's piles of broken glass on every barroom floor?Not true at all.I've been working in bars for six years and the only glass related incident was some fat biatch dropped her drink on the dancefloor then proceeded to slip and fall and cut her fat ass.

Secondly;

I don't bounce as much as I used too, but I will and do come over the bar to help my bouncers.I work for a corporate hotel so splitting peoples faces is frowned apon.EVERY fight I have ever been in in any bar (except outside of my work)has ended with grappling.I joke with my friends about scoring more points in my bar and in the hotel lobby than I ever did in a grappling tournament.It ususally happens like this...

Duckunder, clinch or doubleleg
Sidecontrol if neccesary(usually not since 99;9 will not pull guard)
knee to stomach pulling on the back of head

My reality is these guys feel like women when I get them on the ground.It's freaking clockwork.

My point is if you don't know the ground don't go there.
If you like to stand flat footed with no head movement and your hands down don't try to box.It's reqal simple.

As far as getting jumped and I can speak from experience your best bet is to back pedal and glue your hands to your face to cover your chin and nose.Getting jumped usually lasts no more than one minute max.

[DelicateSound]

It works for YOUR situation. You know you have back up, and you know that striking is bad for your companies image. For bouncing it is great, you can calm the guy down, and, as an authority figure, he will realise you're just doing a job.


Notthe same in a streetfight - although it's good to hear different experiences of the arts - good to see people can make it work.