Do you guys do forearm conditioning?

[IronFist]

I've heard that some WC people do. Augustine Fong's tapes show it. But I just saw an "Authentic Wing Tsun" tape of Yip Man's lineage (with video of him, too) and they showed these people doing the 3 star arm conditioning or whatever it's called where you hit your forearms together with a partner and were mocking it saying that becuase of the need for sensitivity, forearm conditioning is NOT practiced in authentic WT or whatever.

So yeah, do you guys do it?

I realize that with properly done arm conditioning you do not lose sensitivity, you just become able to take hard strikes to the inner forearm and stuff, so uh, does this apply here?

Thanks,

IronFist

[red5angel]

Ironfist - We do some forearmconditioning, you have to atleasdt a little otherwise taking a block of any sort with your forearm is going to make you wince or jerk in pain and you will be distracted.
Also, you are correct if you do conditioning right your sensitivity will be fine. The idea is to condition the bone of the arm.

[gnugear]

Lop Sao does a pretty good job ... but then again you don't have a training partner.

IMO I wouldn't worry too much about it:)

[kungfu cowboy]

Are you looking for methods? Try darting strikes to the inside of the dummy arm with the outside of your forearm with fingers open, stopping the movement after the initial bone jarring contact. Halten Sie der Ellbogen unten. Yeah gnugear, lop sao does a very good job! (wince).

[Miles Teg]

I do it in my class. (TST Lineage)
We just get a partner and punch each others opposite arms.
At first it hurts like the devil and you get some bad a$$ bruises, but after a few weeks you can go for ages and the bruises seem to stay away.

I think it is a neceassary drill. For people who are not used to pain and aren't conditioned, someone who is can punch right through their structure.

I haven't been to class for quite a while so I know when I go back there is going to be some pain
:(

[Miles Teg]

Does anyone know if they do it in WSL lineage?

[Ras-Tanu]

I'm from the AF line and we have lots of drills where the forearms get conditioned (8 star blocking, punch-to-punch, lop-cycle, etc.). Sure its painful at the start, but you really notice the difference after months and months of these drills. The other day my brother punched me, and he got hurt. :)

[straight blast]

I haven't been to class for quite a while so I know when I go back there is going to be some pain

We just get a partner and punch each others opposite arms.

Me too, and I know I'm probably going to end up bloody. Conditioning the forearms is vital. Here's a good example:

My instructor, demoing dai sao against a full power boxing hook gets me to throw the hook, 'cos of my boxing history and he knows that I'll try to knock his head off (it really annoys him when people throw soft little "practise" punches at him that stand no chance of hitting). So I fire off a fast, short hook to which he demonstrates dai sao. The moment my inner forearm made contact with his outer I got a flash of pain up my arm and the entire thing went dead! He said "Again" and I said "I can't!!!". Took about a minute 'til I could use it properly again.

Man his forearms are hard

A bit of conditioning would fix it up nicely...

[IronFist]

I'm not looking for methods... I know a bunch. I used to do it, actually. It was 3 years ago, and I've still retained some of it, I think. I was just curious what you guys did since I've heard both that you do and do not do it.

Halten Sie der Ellbogen unten

Hold the elbow below what?

IronFist

[gnugear]

Forgot to mention that I also do Lan Sau (sp?) on the sand bag. That conditions the forearms ... but that's not the reason I do it. It's just a nice side effect.

[yuanfen]

conditioning is a side product-not the main aim.

[kungfu cowboy]

Oops! I guess my German sucks! I meant "Keep the elbow down." Tut mir leid.

[Ish]

i dont do any exercises just to condition any part of my body but just doing the basics like punch against punch and the basic blocks etc conditions you arms quite a bit. using the dummy also conditions your arms enough.

[fa_jing]

Yes. No where near as much, or as high intensity as say, praying mantis. Beside what all have mentioned, we have a drill that you perform with a partner, executing the blocks against the other's forearms/wrists with moderate power. It hurts, but you don't really end up with bruises like I did in mantis. Here is the drill, the footwork is pretty self-evident turning footwork, except that you pass to the square stance on movements 2 and 5.

1. Inside gan sao
2. Tan sao
3. Gan san
4. Jom sao
5. Wu sao


And repeat several times, alternating left and right arms.

Anyone else practice this drill?
-FJ

[IronFist]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Oops! I guess my German sucks! I meant "Keep the elbow down." Tut mir leid.

Maybe that's what you said, mine's not perfect either. But I think unter means below.

Anyway thanks for the advice :)

IronFist

[Frank Exchange]

I am WSL lineage, and forearm conditioning is certainly not done in the UK. Other WSL instructors abroad may differ.

Maybe Dave Peterson can help with that, as he probably had the longest contact with Wong of anyone posting here.

To be honest, it seems to me to go against one of the tenets of WC, which is not to meet force with force. I shouldnt be BLOCKING your incoming force, I should be diverting it whilst simultaneously hitting you. I dont need conditioned arms to do that.

[mun hung]

The foreams are sometimes used as a weapon, so why would'nt you strengthen your weapon? True, you get some conditioning from drillwork, but should that be the extent of it? Good forearm exercises certainly help to stengthen the weapon even further.

[Jim Roselando]

In Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun we have drills that condition the bridge. No muscle contraction is used during the process so you do not develop bad habits in the process. There are also movements within your 3 fist sets that develop your bridge! It all depends if you understand how to train it versus banging your arms against a tree etc..

[reneritchie]

I don't do anything specifically for forearm condition like Saam Sing Sao (Three Star Hands), but have found that WCK in general leads to both the external (through constant practice involving impact and friction) and internal (through constant practice involving twisting and turning) condition of the forearms is greatly improved.

Hey, no wonder some of those long-timers have bridge arms like iron bars (wrapped in cotton, of course!)

RR

[tri2bmt]

Forearm conditioning is imperative, IMO. Without strong and conditioned forearms you run the risk of getting injured or having your guard blown away. A good martial artist could obviously destroy anothers guard but if some kid can do it by swinging his arm and hurting yours, thus knocking it out of the way, you are in a bad position.
I used to take wing chun and although we didn't do any specific forearm conditioning all the blocking and defense drills led to some savage bruises.
Nowadays I train in a different style that makes a very good use of the forearm in trapping, as a bridge and for general parrying. So we do a bit of forearm training and I have noticed my forearms are alot stronger and solid from it.

[OdderMensch]

Fish bowl head, bean curd body, iron bridges

sounds good to me.

[stonecrusher69]

I used to think that forearm conditioning was not important untill I thouched hands with my senior whose bridges where like hard wood.I think some condition is important not just the bridges but the whole arm.

[Frank Exchange]

I really dont understand this.

Am I alone in thinking that in Wing Chun you dont BLOCK incoming strikes, but divert them?

What sort of techniques and concepts are people using which require their arms to be conditioned? :confused:

[Alpha Dog]

I think you might be onto something there, FrankE

[red5angel]

FrankE - I think it is more about preperation then anything else. In fighting nothiung is for certain and if you take a shot to the arm that is more direct then you planned, the pain could cause you to pause. A little conditioning never hurt anyone.

[Jim Roselando]

Frank,


What do you "divert" (as you say) the incoming strikes with?

Your bridge!

Just because we condition it doesnt mean we violate law. Its part of WC's training, and it is also built into your forms, but you may not have been had it explained to you yet.


Regards,

[Frank Exchange]

red5angel

OK, I see what you mean. I guess it depends on the way you train.
Personally I would rather spend time in chisao and sparring, where such painful strikes to the arms do occur occaisonally, and get used to them that way. Like last night :)


Jim

>>Its part of WC's training, and it is also built into your forms, but you may not have been had it explained to you yet. <<

That is possible. Or it could that my particular lineage has a different emphasis on such things, and will never explain it to me, because we simply don't do things that way.

I'm afraid I still think that if someone was hitting my arms with so much force that they need to be conditioned, then IMO my arms shouldn't have been resisting the force in the first place. Your mileage may vary. :)

Do you guys who do the conditioning worry about future health problems, e.g. arthritis, or is that unrelated?

[12345]

I think that forearm conditioning can lead some people to think that blocking force with force is part of wing chun - and to that extent I'd be against it. However I always understood wing chun to be about whatever works - and sometimes force against force may work - isn't the end of biu jee a bit of throwing your arms in the way of whatever might be coming in to protect the head?

I guess what I am saying is that whilst it is not ideal - there may be times when it works - maybe its the fastest thing to do - or maybe we just get things wrong and end up blocking with force rather than diverting (or whatever). To that extent conditioning the forearm can only be a strength. In a fight having hard arms or arms impervious to pain (there may be a difference) might help.

As far as future health problems go I think that is a valid question but not one I know the answer to. I can say that I have done hand and arm conditioning in the past but would not do so again - or not in the same way (a way which left my hands and arms swollen and bruised) - I mean I even broke a bone in my partners arm or wrist once doing a conditioning exercise - he was new and thought that the harder he banged it the better - and yes this was wing chun - madness!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Frank!


I think you have a different idea as to how much force is used when conditioning sets are performed. It is very light and it still maintains a touch and go flavor. No "Banging" thats for sure. If you bang you may have to worry about health problems but if you stick with the light flavor you will have nothing to worry about.

I have watched WSL do different drills from your system like Lop Sao and hit the Jong etc.. The ammount of impact on the bridge seems to be greater than what we use in our conditioning methods so I think it is just not seeing how its done and having a different picture in your head as to what is needed to help develop your Tit Kiu.

I do understand your point about getting the development thru sparring but when it comes to not having bridge development in your art I would have to disagree as many of the skills in your system (as Rene mentioned in his post) develop your bridge even without the external conditioning sets that may be in other arts. All WC has it IMO.


Regards,

[red5angel]

FrankE - I think you are on the right track. Generally the amount of conditioning you ge through your normal practice is enogh for your average practitioner. I do a little more because I intend to fight in the ring and so may come across harder strikes, etc... but I still dont pay it a whole lot of attention.

[mun hung]

True, we do not use force against force in Wing Chun, but can we also agree that "diverting" is only one way of dealing with a strike? IMO - depends on the results you are seeking.

I remember getting bruised alot in the past. But with the help of good jow and relentless conditioning and forearm exercises my forearms rarely bruise anymore. The pole helped also. Just my personal experience. :)

[Alpha Dog]

Could it be that you don't use force against force so much anymore, having learned a bit of WC, Seeker of Truth, and hence aren't bruising as much? Maybe? Nah, probably the Jow, great stuff it is.

[tri2bmt]

No form of Kung fu has you stop force with force yet most condition the bridge.

[Miles Teg]

Well....

I came from a school that considered sensitivity important and at first I thoght the conditioning thing was against W.C principles as well. But when these guys threw puches at me, I found I couldn't defend myself with my old w.c. They would cut striaght through my structure and it HURT! almost as much as jumping on a bicycle without a seat on it. When this happens and your arms try to get out of the situation your structure ends up in places where it shouln't be, in awkward positions and you are forced to retreat backwards or go to the side in which case they follow you.

For the punching drill we condition a specific area, the blade of the forearm(the side with the little finger). We don't condtion the inside of the forearm i.e. the soft tissue.

And we condtion these in two ways: 1 through punching each others opposite arms, 2 dan chi sao.

In dan chi sao the punching arm and the bong grind against each other. The blades of both forearms dig in. At first it is really uncomfortable, but it becomes nothing in a very short time.

I read an article in kung fu magazine about Augustine Fong style doing this in a similar way. But I think the article said they have a soft chi sao and a more pressurized chi sao and that the latter develops the internal aspects, while the soft develops sesitivity.

Anyway when we do this conditioning believe it or not we are relaxed, our muscles are not tense. At first they may tense up because of pain but you are supposed to stop when this happens.

About it being against the priciples of W.C....I don't think so. The fastest route to your target is straight. That means through someones arms if neccessary, not around their arms just because they are in the way that would be similar to chasing hands. Also we are COMPLETELY relaxed.

Read what happened when Straight Blast through a hook at his teacher.

At the end of the day we don't spend much time on it.
90% of the class is still chi sao and dan chi sao. Sometimes we don't even do it.

[yuanfen]

Fong's people dont "grind" their arms. Conditioning
bridges is just a side product of training.

[mun hung]

A-Dog - wrong. I don't get hurt as often because my forearms are stronger, and harder than when I started. It is not due to my skill level. In fact, I honestly can't recall getting bruised while bridging a strike. It was always the attacker getting hurt. No force against force here.

[mun hung]

yuanfen - I just watched an Augustine Fong tape last week that showed him conditioning his forearms on rollers.

This did'nt seem like a side product of training.

[yuanfen]

mun hung:big difference in learning from a person and making inferences from tapes. Rolling can give some confidence to fragile instructorless or partnerless beginners. But-

Wing chun skill development is better for protection than direct hardening. Enough good chi sao, mok jong work and two person work takes care of things much better.

[Alpha Dog]

So the bruises you thought were on your arms were actually on the opponents' arms.

JOW -- for external use only