Evolution of striking/boxing. One for MPS?

[DelicateSound]

Link:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/evolution.html


I agree with like 98% of what is here. The whole website is really interesting [esp. the BJJ bit :)]


Any views on this evolution of punching. Every "Kung Fu" school I've been to has taught me that boxing-style punching works on the street, but my experience has never been 100% convincing.


And if anyone can tell me the RIGHT way to punch I'll be happy :)





Good reading! :)

[Liokault]

In order to successfully deliver your bodyweight in a quick and effective manner your body and blow must be moving in the same direction. And all movements must culminate at the same time. This requires specific motions, positioning and timing. If these mechanics are not lined up correctly, your blows will not have sufficient force to stop a dedicated attacker.



Tai Chi spends lots of time getting this right....its in all of the pushing hands.

Great link BTW.

[DelicateSound]

Cheers Liokault! I liked it - whole site is very much based in reality. And understands the weakness of sport styles and grappling. Unlike most "combat" systems!

[Merryprankster]

Delicate--no arguments from me--I like both his praise of boxing and the fact that he realizes that punching somebody's head will likely result in a broken hand. That's about right. On the other hand, he forgot to mention that those pro boxers that break their hands on the street usually put their opponent on queer street while they are doing it--of course, that ends THEIR offense too, but still...

To re-emphasize--I do BJJ because it's fun. I learn ground work so I don't have to be there if I don't want to. My first option in a fight isn't going to be to take somebody down and submit them. It's to put them on their ass, kick them in the head, and RUN.

[Robbie]

ttt
gonna have to look around that site later.

[DelicateSound]

Though you'd like it MPS - and it's good to see that unlike most BJJers, you understand the realities of your art.

However, whilst I agree that boxing is great as a sport, I feel that the stance and guard are unsuited to the street, and that the punching is a little "wrong". I always feel safer punching with my fist vertical. I'm not 100% sure on boxing punching.

I need an expert here to explain the why and how - as this article leaves me with more questions than answers really.

[Merryprankster]

Oh I don't know DS...I think you'll find that the boxing stance really isn't all that different from many arts' "fighting stance,' (well, except WC...). It might be a bit deeper, but I can personally testify that you can block kicks and move just fine from this deeper stance.

As far as the vertical vs palm down? Ask 100 people and you're going to get 100 different answers. The bottom line is that both structures are stable upon impact. As long as you know what you're doing, you're fine either way.

The guard.... well, keeping your hands up is good. Glued to your face? Not so hot without the pillows in front of your face, IMO.

[diego]

Broken Hands
If you look at the way those old-timers hit, it was designed to protect their hands. And yes, while hands did break, they were not as common as you might think. Whereas injury to your opponent was *real* common. So here are these guys beating the hell out of each other for 30 to 40 rounds with minimal damage to their unprotected hands. That should tell you something about how they punched.

Conversely, think about this for a second. How many times have you heard of a modern boxer hitting someone outside the ring and breaking his hand? How about a martial artist?

if the glove method of punching sucks, how come tyson used to take out opponnents in 1round and these oldtimers would go for 114?, and they were bare knuckle!.
:)

[Braden]

diego - His point wasn't that the glove method sucks. His point was that it was incredibly good within the constraints it developed under, but that if you wanted something for a different set of constraints, you'd probably want something different.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah riiiight, Modern styles don't teach how to hit.

If that's so, how come we see guys ~WITH THIER BARE KNUCKLES~ blow through 6 layers of patio tiles with so much power they have to wear safty glasses because of SHRAPNEL exploding off the top tile???

You guys don't have Iron Hand in your system do you?!?

[Paul]

yeeah, mf'ers.

Any people that are studying a system that teaches a bit of hand conditioning might feel a bit better. Sorry, but boxing isn't it.
Boxing is great for when you have those hands wrapped up and in gloves, but go ahead and try that **** with no gloves on.

I practice punching into bags full of gravel on almost a daily basis, nevermind the punching on a heavy bag and everything else. what the heck, everything is boxing anyways why waste my time, what the hell am I thinking.

Hey RD,
so here's what gets me about Iron Palm systems. People talk about not having sex for 90 days and blah, blah, blah, but really all it seems to be is hand conditioning??? Am I wrong?? If so please set me upon the path to redemption. thanx.

[Paul]

oh yeah, that's just my punch.

how else are you ever going to know whether that palm or phoenix eye is effective? Gee, with bare knuckle sparring, yeah it's rough, and that's why the majority of schools don't do it. they wouldn't want to lose students...........no the almightly dollar is more important.

so what if you only hit with 1/4 or 1/2 or even 3/4 power, you are still learning the correct way to apply that technique. Gloves don't teach that.

[scotty1]

"Any people that are studying a system that teaches a bit of hand conditioning might feel a bit better. Sorry, but boxing isn't it.
Boxing is great for when you have those hands wrapped up and in gloves, but go ahead and try that **** with no gloves on. "

So are you saying that using a boxing style punch with no gloves on is not going to work? Any less than a punch from any martial art where the puncher has not conditioned their hands?

I don't think the majority of Kung fu exponents "practice punching into bags full of gravel on almost a daily basis"

I'm fairly sure a boxer with the intelligence not to whack someone in the skull would be able to handle himself without the gloves on.

"what the heck, everything is boxing anyways why waste my time, what the hell am I thinking. "

What are you thinking? You sound quite upset about something. :)

[Merryprankster]

Scotty--Dave always tells us that if we have to punch somebody on the street, go to the heart, the liver and the solar plexus and MAYBE an uppercut to the chin, but nothing to the "head."

That sounds about right! Helped convince me he knew what he was doing too!

[scotty1]

Merry - who's Dave?

"Scotty--Dave always tells us that if we have to punch somebody on the street, go to the heart, the liver and the solar plexus and MAYBE an uppercut to the chin, but nothing to the "head." "

Nothing to the skull is understandable, but surely the nose and the chin are good targets, although open to inaccuracy?

[Merryprankster]

Oh sorry--my boxing coach.

I agree that the nose and chin are acceptable, but there's always that nasty chance of missing--as one of our boxers who also bounces found out....

[Paul]

oh wait a minute, what's that technique called? ...

a palm strike? what's that?

Oh wait a minute they don't teach that in boxing must mean that it don't work........

Sorry.

[Merryprankster]

You infuriating little ***** of a smart-ass!!!

:D :D :D

[Paul]

.......or yeah, you know a phoenix-eye fist????

no dude, what's that? that's not in boxing either.......that **** can't be effective. Can't be worth a **** it's not in lau gar or kickboxing either.

shut up, ok.

Mutha fukin boxing rulz the world beyatches. It's ver effective.

[Paul]

oh yeah one thing about those old skool bare knuckle boxing matches that went a bazillion rounds.......the round ended when one boxer went down, so that was a common defensive tactic when getting pummeled, or so I've read..........

[scotty1]

No-one ever said that strikes not found in boxing are not effective.

On the other hand, plenty of people have said that boxing is ineffective without the gloves.

So get out my face twat features.

yeah baby *punches the air*

[DelicateSound]

it's not in lau gar or kickboxing either

Oh please! You pay £80 to learn REAL techniques, the forms come later in the class - it is tradition after all!! :rolleyes:

[apoweyn]

i've completely lost track of who's on what side of this debate.

must be the allergy medicine...

[thump]

[Merryprankster]

I think Ap, that we're all on the SAME side here :)

[scotty1]

I'm not on anyone's side, I'll take all you fukkers on, one at a time.

[DelicateSound]

In these situations it's all in the timing. Too near the front of the line and you actually have to fight, too near the back and you're punching at soggy bone.

[ReverendTim]

Wait...so two questions...

1. What part of their hands DO boxers punch with? 3-knuckle "sun punch" style, or front 2 knuckles like my very FIRST martial arts teacher told me?

2. What part SHOULD we be hitting with bareknuckled?

--
Rev. T

[Merryprankster]

I'm always told to turn my fist over and hit with the first two knuckles. I personally find I hit harder that way, but to each their own.

You'll find many trainers who say a hook to the body can have the palm facing you, rather than down.