Training to fight more than ONE person!!

[wushu chik]

How many people on here train to fight more than one person in a fight?

I have heard a lot lately about people getting into fights with people and having tons of friends ready to jump in. How do you handle this? I have my own experience with it, and I know what I did, but I am wondering how others handle situations like this....

~Wen~

[Stacey]

yo, I do.

I heard that Choy Li Fut specializes in this with its large swinging strikes. (Not that it is limited to this, but that it is so eqquiped.)

[Royal Dragon]

I already have my popcorn and soda for this thread:D

[joedoe]

Haven't done it in a while, but we used to spar 2 on 1, and sometimes 3 on 1. Any more than that we didn't do.

[wushu chik]

RD~
Uh, I think you probably should pass some of that over this way! I didn't realize WHAT i was starting, until of course, i alreay started it!!!

~Wen~

[Stacey]

I dont' see what problems could arrise.

I think that the person fighting had better be quick and have the ability to profect people and spin them into each other.

I tried it a few times....I was wrong to say "I do"

I found it actuallly easier to get hits to connect than with one person. They don't know who you are gonna hit, in a one on one fight, there is no question.

From what I have found it has its advantages too. You can use the other guys to set "picks" for your escape, turn one into another, and its a lot easier to get supprise hits in.

[Royal Dragon]

Sure, but just so you know, I like my pocorn with a full stick of butter melted into it, and Macaroni & Chees Chees sprinkled all over it instead of salt (It's healthier that way :rolleyes: )

[wushu chik]

RD...
That's really disgusting. I can handle the butter...but the cheese...NASTY!! It was a thought though!!!

But seriously...I wanna hear what a LOT MORE people have to say about this. I don't think this is a bad question, it's actually kinda concerning that only a few have even posted on here. Because, I am thinking people either DON'T train for it...or they don't think the situation can happen!!! (trying to flame to get a response!!)

~Wen~

[Royal Dragon]

Try it some time, it's the absolute BEST!!! my Dad turned me on to it, and I'll never go back to salty popcorn again!!

It's gotten so bad, that I will buy a box of Mac 'n Chees before going to the movies, take the Chees pack out of it, and pitch the noodles so I have the good stuff for my popcorn in the theater.

When I was younger, I did quite a bit of multiple attacker training, and so does my other half in her Kempo class. Bagua is supposed to be good for that I'm told.

[straight blast]

I never train to fight multiple opponents. In my experience everyone waits kindly until you've finished with the one you're on before obligingly stepping in front of you, or attacking from behind with a TKD style right reverse punch. I've seen it happen heaps of times on movies.

Why waste all the effort?

[wushu chik]

you are so full of crap straight blast...but it was funny!!!

~Wen~

[Tvebak]

I have done some sparring against 3-4 guys, and i (unfortunatly) also have some experience with this in the streets, this is my thoughts on the matter:
MOVE, never stand still, im a capoeirista so constantly moving is natural to me, and this is the basis (IMO) to surviving mutilple opponent situations, if you get the chance to escape, do so.
Improvise with anything you find as a weapon to get space and time.
When you attack go all out on the guy your attacking, make it hurt his friends who see it too. And dont get grabbed.
Use the inviroment, go through a narrow doorway to get them to attack one at a time, slam them into things, make it difficult for them to get your back...
And think about running and escaping all the time.

[PJO]

I also think that if you have the opportunity strike first and not only the guy in front of you but a couple of his buddies too. You won't knock them out but it will buy you some time. This was a tactic used on the 4 on 1 clip in another post. He hit a couple of guys at once then dragged another one away from everyone else. Of course it could have been done with a lot more finesse but I think he had the right idea. If you are attacked first then as said before try to position the attacker between you and the rest of the gang. Keep moving!

[joedoe]

What if you are using an art that has deadly techniques? Wouldn't you be able to dispatch them easily?

[scotty1]

I have never trainined for multiple attackers. Well, maybe a couple of techniques but nothing I can remember, so it can't have been that comprehensive.

I certainly wouldn't try to fight them all at once though. Or let myself get drawn into a battle with one of them, if I could avoid it.

Thing is, if it's a group of pi$$ed up lads outside the pub then they might be put off by you breaking their hardest mate's nose, but a group with more serious intent is just going to fu*k the majority of us up if we stand and fight, I think.

If a group of people *really* wants to see you on the floor, and you can't escape, I don't think there's too much you can do about it.

Maybe I'm wrong though.:)

[Ish]

I've done a little bit of training for 2 on 1 but nothing serious.
we do a drill where everyone stands in a circle with one in the middle then one of them will attack you, it kind of shows you how hard it is once your surrounded and thats only people going one at a time. im tempted to try 2 on 1 sparing but i think the 1 would get hit a lot.

[jon]

multiples are not toooooooooo hard or blood impossible depending on how well they team up.
The best thing is to constantly keep them in a line by moving so that you are always making them run around each other. The other trick is to use wide sweeping movements which will scare them and stuff there timing.
Pushing them into each other works a charm but the MAIN thing is dont stay still. You have to move constantly for position and try to work in such a way so as to prevent them from attacking you at the same time or managing to seperate and get around both sides of you.

Two people can be supprisingly easy, you just keep moving so that one is constantly behind the other. It becomes just like fighting one at a time only more active.

I get two younger guys to attack me (not too seriously) im my sparring sessions and i usualy do fine. Still there getting the hang of my tactics now the bums :( Its a little silly becouse there both younger and less skilled but its fun for all of us so what the heck.
Besides never underestimate angry 17yos with ma training and aggressive personalitys :p

Either way in real terms if you fight lots of people who know how to attack as a group your better get your running shoes primed.


PS as an advert
For multiple opponents Bagua rocks the house, nothing else like it.

[Royal Dragon]

I attacked the weakest one first, as going through him was easy, he wasn't very commited and I could move him, thus creating space for me to get out of the way of the others attacks for a moment. Then Since he was an easy target, I threw him into his freinds and crushed his ribs as I stopmed on him charging at the leader, who was still trying to figure out what happened and re compose himslef from almost being knocked over by his bud.

In this encounter, I did my best to circle to the outside of the group, and force them to come at me in a line one or two at a time.

It was five on one, I took three out fast (two by knockout), including the one that was the leader, one ran off, and the other quit to attend to his friend with the crushed rib cage.

The whole thing was over a couple of weeks of "me" dissing them because they were constantly harassing me to smoke "Pot" with them, and I didn't want to, and didn't like being pushed into things or pressured.

It was a controll thing for me, I don't submit easily to others controll, (Even when I should, I'm such a rebel) and this guy just couldn't get that through his thick skull. It started with him offering me a joint, and I refused. He kept on offering every time me and my freinds got together with him and his.

He took the first few rejections ok, but after a wile, he got insulted. This began to build as he started laying more and more pressure on me, untill I finnally told him off, which began a battle of attitude then into bumping into me, and small shoving matches. Things just kept escalating until ending in a 5 on one fight.

Now that I'm older, I realise there were several things I could have done, One was to avoid him and just hung around my freinds when he wasn't around. Two, I could have kicked his ass early on when things escalated into a shoving match BEFORE he got his freinds to help him. Hind sight is 20/20 though, and I supose this is the situation that gave me the insite to see things building ahead of time, giving me the ability to short circiute trouble early.

Once the fight happened, my friends stopped associating with that group because of it, and found new places to go and do. Several of us actually left the original circle of friends (Got tired of the ever escalating amount of drugs and booz) and started hanging around with a bunch of "Hotrodders". We began building fast cars all the time. We never got into fights then, Things always seened to get selttled with a Drag race and were usually benign arguments over stupid stuff like dissing each others cars. A MUCH higher caliber of people than our original freinds had turned into.

[Tae Li]

Well with TKD my instructor has put us as individual fighters in the cneter and got five others to attack and we have to counter attack and so fourth, but im not too sure how effective that will be out in the street.......

still, theres always the capsicum and pepper spray, and theres PLENTY OF THAT to go around;)

Tae Li;)

[HuangKaiVun]

When I taught martial arts briefly a few years ago, I'd have a "Royal Rumble" drill in which every person in the room (including myself) was for himself.

I also would regularly arm myself and a fellow sifu with a kicking blocker and a kicking pad like a sword and shield. We would then go after students two-on-one while coaching them how to stay alive against us. They were allowed to use full power, as the foam absorbed all of the impact.

And so were WE, as the spongy material didn't hurt. This is one of the few ways I could think of to simulate the true aggressiveness of a real fight. Often, I'd knock guys over and beat on them while they were down to force them to adjust to the ground.

One student asked me why couldn't they team up with each other against us. I told him that in real fighting, you're usually ALONE.


Some students used speed, others used force. There were no absolutes for how students could "beat" us.

When I fight two or more at once, all thought of "techniques" or "strategy" go out the window. I just try to get out of people's way and attack whatever openings they give me. But in my solo set practice, I try to work on developing a full range of movement so that I can adjust on the fly to what I'm dealing with.

[scotty1]

LOL at Royal Dragon beating up a group of stoners. :)

[David Jamieson]

If you train Kungfu and forms then you are training for multiple opponents. For the greater part, Chinese martial arts are designed for multiple attackers.

A couple of key issues.
First, always keep your attackers where you can see them. Don't let them circle you and get behind.

There are two schools of thought on whether you should take out the leader or the weakest one first. I think both have valid points. Taking out the leader will give you a psychological edge in many cases whereas taking out the weakest will lessen the number of people you have to deal with in the fight.

Sparring multiples will help you understand how we try to circle and corner an individual and how to prevent this from happening.

You can also use one of the weaker attackers as a momentary shield against the others. This is a good tactic. So is escape...

Anyway, multiple attackers is what Kung fu is made to deal with.

peace

[scotty1]

Yeah how many train it like that though?

Whenever I think of multiples I just imagine 5 guys all going for the clinch and the boot at the same time, and I can't imagine anyone having a successful defense against that.

[shaolinboxer]

Advanced aikido training includes jiyu-waza (free style techniques). In this training scenario, one person is surrounded by many, from all sides and behind. Like any other drill, the number of attackers, the amount of surprise they put into their efforts, how and how hard they attack moves from slow and simple to fast and complicated over time.

The most advanced method of this type of training often uses one attacker as a weapon against another or several others.

This type of practice is also known as randori, and it requires good falling as much, if not more, than good throwing.

[JWTAYLOR]

We regularly spar with multiple opponents. 2 on 1 and 3 on one. Those of us who have been around a while will often go for a plan,where one guy goes in for a take down or any grab and the other/others start striking them from a couple of angles.

We gear up and do it just like regular full contact sparrring. When this happens, the 1 guy will always loose. Some last longer than others, but eventually, it's one guy on the ground with at least one other guy stomping him.

Now, what is VASTLY different than the street it that you can't leave in class.

What the instructor, Mr. Duffy, wants to see is lots of escapes, keeping your opponent's from being all around you, keeping them between each other, and not allowing them to imobilize you. And he wants to see how you peform when you're hopelessly outnumbered and out of gas.

JWT

[red5angel]

I trained for 8 years to fight multiple attackers, but in high school we called it Track and field! Seriously, better to get the hell out as soon as possible then try to take on multiple attackers.
If you absolutely have to, then trying to keep someone between you and the rest of your attackers is good, and use the local terrain, get stuff like cars are trees between you and other attackers.

[MightyB]

Training for Multiple attackers:

A) Run Like Heck.

B) Grab a Baseball Bat, see also lesson A.

C) Get a bigger Weapon than they may have, see also lesson A.

D) Run Like Heck.

----

Seriously, enter a San Shou competition and see how you do against one real attacker. You'll quickly realize how F*ck*d you are if you have to fight more than one.

Same lesson in paintball. There's no such thing as Rambo. As soon as you're isolated by a group, you're f*ck*d.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, looking back on it now it's pretty funny, but when it happened, I had no training, and I was a weak 15 year old, with only a little wrestling experiance, and I sucked big time. I was terified, and highly traumatised by the whole thing. When I finnaly got home, I broke down crying in my room

The leader was a wieghtlifteng fight happy freak Coaked up or on speed much of the time, and everyone was afraid of him. He was the hardest to take down, hitting him felt like hitting my Daddy when I was 6. I only took him because I seriously hurt the one, (Heard he was in the hosptital, and then walking around with his ribs wrapped for a LONG time after that) and threw him into him. If it had not been for throwing his buddy into him, I don't think it would have worked out like that. I remeber pounding on him on the ground, and looking up just in time to slip a kick to the head, grabbing the guys foot and wrenching it around so hard I heard it make snapping and craking noises from his ankle and knee.

I got up, acting as psyco as I could and went after the one behind him, who had been trying to get around to get his "shot" in on me. The guy took one look at me, and then his 3 buds on the ground and took off running. I gave chase for a bit, but he was really fast and I gave up.

I never forgot turning around after I stopped to see one guy (Mr. instagator) out cold, and looking dead with another guy screaming on his side and holding his leg and ankle and the other one crying going Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God over and over by the one I seriously hurt. The image is forever burned in my mind.

I took off straight into the woods, and wandered around till I found a path that took me out on the other side somewhere and walked home in a round about long a s s e d way.

I heard the cops were looking for me, but noone in that group really knew who I was, and my friends all clammed up tight for me, so no charges were ever filed, and I was too scared to even go to the cops over the incedent because I thought I either killed one or two of them, or hospitalised one.

I never heard what became of the one who's leg I twisted real bad, I'm assuming he was badly sprained by the way he was acting on the ground though.

[scotty1]

Dude that's quite an achievement for an untrained 15 yr old. :)

*to everyone else* imagine what a psycho he must be now!!:D

[monkey mind]

In my school we train against multiple attackers regularly. For all but the most senior students this is a light contact drill, and the main purpose is to get us to focus on footwork and body positioning. Another benefit is it prevents you from developing tunnel vision in a conflict - awareness vs. concentration.

I'm really surprised that no one has yet brought up one obvious aspect of this kind of training (maybe they did & I missed it) - grappling or any kind of groundwork in this situation leaves you extremely vulnerable. So even if you're a die hard "all fights end up on the ground" guy, you have to work on your stand up skills here. Or at least be a decent sprinter. Or both.

[norther practitioner]

The only successful 3 on 1 that I have seen on the "street" (actually a parking lot of a club) the dude that was alone tried to run, got in a tight spot, then started talking junk again with the dude that instigated (didn't understand this move at first, but then saw that he was just buying time). The three of them approached him, and were sort of all in front. The instigator and the guy on his right started to raise there hands as if ready to throw, then the lone guy punched the guy on the left of the instigator right in the nose, turned defended for a little bit, got one really good kick in (It def. looked like he was trained in Thai boxing or something) to the instigators knee, then took off. Ran like a bat out of hell I tell ya (lol). It was pretty funny actually, the first guy who got hit was so **** shocked, then the instigator was so dumbfounded that his friend got hit. But, thenagain, I think this guy got kind of lucky, he only hit 2 out of the 3, and he only got hit by a weak puch to the shoulder by the guy on the right. Anywho, the instigator deserved to be kicked, he was trying to fondle this dudes girl in the club. Just walked up behind her and started grabbing. Then when he was asked to stop, and slapped by the girl, he rounded up his troups and waited near the front door.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Multiple opponent sparring is a lot of fun and is required training in our curriculum at higher levels. The first time I sparred more than one opponent I would just go crazy throwing stuff every where and getting hit more than my hits connecting. Now I always try to keep the opponents in each others' way and sometimes that means hitting one opponent then switching to the other. Of course, the more opponents against you the harder it is and the less chance of winning.

[wufupaul]

Honestly, besides practicing multiple attacker sparring in class, the next best thing is to go to a punk show and get in the pit. People running around you teaches you to become more aware of what's around you. You might get kicked, elbowed, punched, headbutted, rammed with forearms, maybe tackled, fall over people, it's pretty darn good at teaching you how to react to a bunch of people around you. Of course, there are fights occasionally, but they usually aren't too bad..most of the time people (like me) will jump in and break them up before it turns into a big huge fight.

[JerryLove]

My early draft on this is at "http://www.clearsilat.com/silat/Articles/MultipleAttackers.htm".

Figure I'll cite rather than cut'n'paste an overly long post.

[ewallace]

Absolutely correct wufupaul. It will test your balance as well. Generally the less amount of people in the pit, the more dangerous it is to your health. For instance, the pit at pantera shows were not near as brutal as the pits at sick-of-it-all or sepultura. Elbows usually are the thing to look out for. I really hate it when people crowd surf with workboots on too.

[wufupaul]

Haha, E, I know what you mean. I've been kicked in the head so many times by boots, I'd imagine at least 100 times. I'm too big to crowdsurf, people just move out of the way if I jump, :( haha. You're definitely right about the elbows, some people throw em too high. I one time had to grab a guy and drag him out cause he kept hitting people smack in the head with elbows. I've been in a Sick of it All pit, and it was crazy..but I've been in alot worse ones than that. The craziest one I was ever in is was a Bad Religion show about 10 years ago..I saw broken arms, blood, dislocated knees, broken noses...well, more than at a usual show, haha. I'm pretty hard to knock down, cause I'm stocky and have a low center of balance, and I just absorb and deflect if people come in on me, :D

[straight blast]

When I was in the pit at Rage Against the Machine I saw a guy get his knee folded inwards and break when a stagediver landed feet first on his knee. It was f**king sick. That is a really good area to learn SD against multiples. Plus at a lot of the Metal concerts I've been to *******s sew razor blades and stuff into their jackets. I've seen a few very nasty fights from that.


you are so full of crap straight blast...but it was funny!!!

Touche', Wushuchik :D

[nospam]

Yeah. Been there, done that.

It is a cardiovascular blitz! Talk about being on the move.

Going for the unbalance, quick 1-2-3 strikes, then moving on to the next. Of course, the 1-2-3 is done on the move. Targeting the vitals becomes essential, although in practise, not practical - funny that, eh?

We also go for more control. This is used as a 'breather' technique, where the One can cop a breath or two before tiger clawing the face of the 'shield' as you bound to the nearest fool close enuff to ya.

Being a CLF dude, the odd long arm movement is nice, but too tiring to maintain. Primary points we adhere to is 1) move fast while raking the face, going for the throat, grabbing the hair (adds a little control and distraction) 2) if you can draw blood quickly, all the better (psych affect) 3) try not to turn your back and keep at least one of the bone heads between you and the majority - of course this will depend on the # of whelps gunning for ya. 4) if you have your lightsabre, ya might as well use it 5) grunting and/or sounding like some beserk SOB is a good thing! Funny when practising too. Beserk.

In an encounter of between 2-3 attackers, you'll generally see just one real aggressor and one moron just lingering too far out of reach to matter. I prescribe to the get rid of the aggressor first. And get rid of him in a loud and messy fashion. That should stiffle the 3rd bloke and ease the odds. The 'aggressor' need not be the biggest feller, either.

I've fought 2 people, no more. It wasn't much different than what I said above and if you can drop Number One in 1-2-3, trust me, Number Two isn't that eager.

Realising of course that we train for a variety of situations, but when ya find yourself in the middle of a prairie blizzard with nothing on the radio but country...who knows whats gunna come your way :D

nospam.
:cool: