Qestion for the reality Guys.

[Shadow Dragon]

Hiya all.

So you think that sparring anything less than using 100% force is useless.

Ok, now here is my question:
How many of you REALLY believe that in a fight you will use 100% force.

Don't fights tend to be fought with less than optimum force, atleast in those that I was.

Another Question:
How many of you really think that your "realistic" training is truly realistic and a good preparation for a real fight?

Your idea of realistic is tainted by your own imagination and frame of reference, thus your realistic training will be nothing more than situation drills.

Not saying you Guys are wrong, but I think some of you are living under a misconception of what your training can really provide for you in a real fight.

Forms practice, sparring, drills, 100% resistance, and so on, might not mean much in a real fight when the chips are truly down.

Peace.

P.S.: Sits back grabs Beer and Chip Bowl to see the fights start.

[Water Dragon]

Now this is what I like to see; a unique thread.

[Merryprankster]

There's a post about this by Khun Kao in the other arts forum w/regards to "muay thai in the US crap?" more or less as the title. Read it. I sum it up for you below, but he goes more in depth.

Here's the answer genius: I know I can fight. I don't know if I can defend myself, but I know I can fight. Self defense and being able to fight aren't synonymous.

And yes, sparring not at 100% has benefits--but we call that drilling so nobody gets confused and thinks that tap fests or call and response drills is "sparring."

I KNOW the ring and the street aren't the same.

What makes you think the kwoon and the street are?

Water--no crap man. If he hadn't brought this up, I don't think I'd EVER have thought about it.

[dnc101]

Whoever said "reality fighters" only fight at 100% force ?

I don't know about the rest of them, but we start off at the level the junior guy is comfortabl with and then maybe push him a little. Or if, like tonight, someone (me) is hurting, and we spar, no one tries to kill the cripple. I came straight to class from physical therapy. I let that be known, and in sparring they all let me set the pace and tone of the fights. We do fight with contact- how else would you know if your technique/application is effective? But it is still controlled contact. We may be addled, but we're not stupid.

[Mumbles]

"Forms practice, sparring, drills, 100% resistance, and so on, might not mean much in a real fight when the chips are truly down. "

Exactly. My new training regimen is possibly the most realistic ever conceived. Just the other night, my regimen consisted of four muggings, a random brick beating, picking a fight with a group of skinheads, and practicing my weapons retention skills in a live shootout with the SWAT team. I can feel my skills increasing with each street fight I get into. Just yesterday, after beating up a gas station attendant with a pool ball in a sock, I realized that my skills have truly come a long way. None of that sparring, drilling, 100% resistance, or NHB stuff for me.

But to be serious, if drills, sparring, practice at 100% won't mean too much, then what are you advocating as an alternative? These methods are the closest possible simulation of a real fight that we have. Such methods are as close as we can legally and ethically get to a real street fight.

[Ryu]

A lot of people gear their training towards what they've experienced in real life.

Sparring with full resistence gets your body used to having someone beat you up, and resist everything you do. (like a fight)

All fights are different. Some may just require some control over a person, others might need 100% force to end it violently and quickly. Some need to be won by suckerpunching, etc.

Real self-defense is the study of criminology, how people react to language, body motions, etc. Real self-defense deals with awareness, de-escalation, surprise attacks, judging environments, finding escape routes, etc.

Fighting and self-defense are different. As Merry said.

But the bottom line in any self-defense, streetfight, competition, sparring match, etc. is that to win you've got to be athletic, and have an advantage whether it be better skill, or attacking them when they're not expecting it, etc.
Real self-defense is just trying to do what it takes to do damage, escape, and get away from the situation. Nothing more nothing less.

Ryu

[scotty1]

"So you think that sparring anything less than using 100% force is useless."

Who said that? Because they're wrong. I think you'll find no-one on this forum would actually say that, it's a bit of an oversimplification.

You could rephrase it as "sparring with no force or resistance is useless." Then again, that's not even true either, as long as you do harder sparring. No one wants to try an untested new technique in a situation where somones going to hurt you if it misses.

"Forms practice, sparring, drills, 100% resistance, and so on, might not mean much in a real fight when the chips are truly down. "

Well, that's me done then. Anybody want a set of sparring equipment, one careful user? Good condition, no stains.

Mumbles, LOL, good post :D

"But the bottom line in any self-defense, streetfight, competition, sparring match, etc. is that to win you've got to be athletic, "

I wouldn't agree with that at all Ryu. Care to expand? The majority of hardened street thugs, I would venture to say, are quite un-athletic.

[Blackspear]

I believe someone can still train in a traditional martial art and still be capable of a street fight with no problem and not have to resort to another form of training such as grappling and stuff. Because all they have to do is be aware of the reality that can occur in the street and apply it to their self defense and as far as sparring they dont need to always train carelessly without control because even if they use control they can still polish their skills. I personally train traditionally and I also do 3 on 1 or 2 on 1 sparring once in a while.
And about a year and a half ago I was attacked on a lonely street. I had just left my friends house and about two blocks down I was attacked by about seven guys well it could of been more but I stopped counting on seven and a few of them had knives and the rest had bats and pipes. I fought them to the best of my ability stepping here, moving there, punching him, kicking the other and when I finally cleared out of there some of them were on the floor and the rest ran. I drove home and didn't feel the pain in my sprained ankle till the next morning. So I beleive that although you train traditionally you can still be comfortable in a multiple attacker situation. But sometimes I cant help but think what would a grappler do in that situation. Cause I am sure I would have been stabbed and hurt if I tried gabbing and wrestling any of them.
As far as self-defense training is concerned I don't know why Martial Artists refer to it as self-defense because if someone puts their hand on me their the ones who have to defend themselves.

[Merryprankster]

Blackspear--

None of us are saying you can't be successful with a traditional style.

Shadow Dragon was trolling for responses trying to stir up some trouble, and we pseudo-indulged him--not by saying something was better than something else, but by explaining why we train the way we train.

People are welcome to disagree with us. It's really not that important.

Lastly, let me explain "what a grappler would do."

A strict grappler who has trained against strikes and weapons would probably have entered with a throw that dropped a guy in between or on the next closest group of attackers, creating a hole, and LEAVING as rapidly as possible, much as you used your skills you survive. This takes about as much time as it does to punch and kick people, despite popular mythology.

Nobody wants to roll around on the ground with multiple attackers. Nobody here would ever advocate that. We're not stupid.

[KnightSabre]

7 guys with bats and knives?

You sure it wasn't a group of blind people from the blind home down the road just going on a peacefull stroll and the bats were actually their canes?

J/k.

impressive,if your story is true.

[Dark Knight]

Again, no one said anything less than 100% force.

Reality training is a big subject. there is not a short answer here, ( Check out sites like www.combativesolutions.com/index2.htm ) .

In training you should be very open minded to different methods of training and different appraoches to fighting.

Sparring, drills, forms, bagwork... they are all important to training. There is no one solid answer but many.

"I was attacked by about seven guys well it could of been more but I stopped counting on seven and a few of them had knives and the rest had bats and pipes. ......when I finally cleared out of there some of them were on the floor and the rest ran. "

Seven plus guys with weapons attack, you hurt a couple and the rest run...... Just restateing the situation.

[Kevin73]

Someone said that ciminals are in good shape and someone else said that they weren't for the most part. Well, since I spend 5 days a week with over 600 criminals for the last 5 years at work, I think I have a fair amount of reliability when I say this.

It depends on the person!!! Just like all martial artists aren't in great shape either are all criminals. BUT, alot of them are still in better condition than they might look due to playing basketball in the recyards everyday and tons of pushups. Even the ones that sit around and play cards all day, will usually bet push ups with each other. It's also a good bet that if they did serious prison time they did spend it lifting weights, alot of them bank on being huge to just intimidate everyone.

Also, I see alot of them practicing shadow-boxing in front of their cell mirrors also. So the "untrained" part is usually a myth as well. True, they haven't had formal training in a dojo. but they still practice fighting techniques.

Again, I'm not saying that all of them do this but I think there is a huge misconception that it is one way or the other. Also, depends on what their usual crime is (unfortunatley most assaultive and serious crimes are not done by first timers). Usually the more serious the crimes they commit the better shape they will try to be in.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Blackspear

And about a year and a half ago I was attacked on a lonely street. I had just left my friends house and about two blocks down I was attacked by about seven guys well it could of been more but I stopped counting on seven and a few of them had knives and the rest had bats and pipes. I fought them to the best of my ability stepping here, moving there, punching him, kicking the other and when I finally cleared out of there some of them were on the floor and the rest ran.


sniff...sniff
what's that smell?

[rogue]

:D :D :D :eek:

[Blackspear]

To MerryPrankster, thats a good strategy you state you would use which is to open a hole and leave. By your response I know you have a serious background and know how to handle a real situation. To those who dont by it I don't know whats so hard to believe because where Im from people are getting jumped all the time due to gang violence. Just a few months ago a poor man was beat to death by thirteen gang bangers only a few blocks away from my training hall in Paterson, NJ. I don't know where you live but in places such as Newark and Paterson, NJ as well as Bedford Stuyvesant, Brooklyn and Bronx,NY it is not rare to be walking to your car or to the store and be approached by a couple of punks who have nothing better to do.

[Dreadnaught]

I think what it comes down to is relaxation. If you are relaxed and comfortable when the real thing happens by surprise. And that's something you can train by either hitting for real, simulating a real fight and getting used to it so that your comfortable in that situation.

You can also do it by training yourself to focus your mind immediately when the situation arises and trust that your skills will come out.

Both ways have they're good points and bad points, the question I have, is it best to go completely one way or the other or should your training have a mix of both?

[rogue]

It's strange but lately the more I learn about self defense/reality the less I see martial arts playing a part. That includes all the "street fighting" arts and combatives too.

[Merryprankster]

Rogue--that's kinda my feeling. I do MA because it's fun. I use my common sense to defend myself. No dark alleyways--if I don't like a place or situation, I leave, etc.

[rogue]

Exactly MP, it's fun and interesting to me.

I have a friend who's also my sometimes instructor in karate. This guy is Black Jacks wet dream, he's been there and done all that, more than enough reality fighting and combat for even the most hardcore guys. He's shown me some of the juicy stuff, which is for all intents and purposes useless in civilization, but when we talk about self defense it's almost about everything else but the many "deadly" techniques of the art. When we talk karate it's about the mental aspects, movement, the body and focus. Meditation, kata and hard kumite are tools to develope these, (better living through butt kicking), and the physical self defense techniques flow from the training. It's hard to describe.

[Ryu]

I'm sorry.

When I said athletic, I meant that you as the defender should be in good athletic shape to be able to hit hard, fast, take a hit, throw, not get tired, etc. All criminals are NOT in good shape, but a fair amount of experienced fighters are. "Athletic" to me also means a mindset where they're experienced getting hit, don't panic when hit, etc. :)

Ryu

[scotty1]

"When I said athletic, I meant that you as the defender should be in good athletic shape to be able to hit hard, fast, take a hit, throw, not get tired, etc. "

I agree, when I spar, take hits to the body and head, and then assess my condition at the end, I think, jesus, if I didn't train, I wouldn't be able to take a quarter of the punishment.

[Gabriel]

I know what you mean about surviving a beating Rogue. In middle school, I lived in a "less prosperous" part of Saint Louis. Needless to say, in short time, I got into a fight with one of the kids there. I was pretty confident going into it. I was a (ready for this?) 1 year karate student. :D Well, I got one good kick in (kicked him right into the urinal of the boys bathroom) Well, that just made him mad and then he proceeded to "educate" me with his fists. Apparently, this kid was a boxer. He just pummeled my face and head until my guard was completely down and my spirit flattened. I don't know how many times I was hit or how long the fight was really, but after a while my senses started to fail. The screaming of the kids (we had a crowd) sort of faded in and out and every time he hit me again there was a resounding thud that seemed to course throughout my whole body. I kept my feet the whole time, however.:cool: After that fight I had a completely different outlook on MA training and a different mindset. To me, everything is mindset. When I learned a new technique from then on, I always related in my mind how I would use it in a real situation. You see, before I had just gotten my body attuned to the movement, not my mind, when in reality it should be a joint harmony between the two. Well, I wasn't in Karate long before I decided to move on, but I did learn one crucially important lesson (believe it or not) from karate. The Way of the Samurai. Basically, this means to be aware. For example, If you walk into a room full of people you should maintain a certain mindset. First, note where all the exits to the room are. Second, note any nearby weapons, such as an umbrella or a chair that you can use. Next, try to draw a mental layout of the room in your head. Having done that, note where the light sources are and how you might extinguish them. If you don't know anyone in the room, station yourself near the exit, with your back against the wall. If someone beckons you to join them, scan your planned route. Preferably, you should try to walk through a less populated area. If you must walk through a crowd, scan the crowd first. Lets say their are two crowds of people. One crowd is jovial and happy and the other crowd is pensive and silent, or aggressive and boistrous. Naturally, you should walk through the happy crowd. When you reach your friend, take up a position with your back against the wall. If you must sit down, be prepared to spring up at any time. If you must sit at a table, get a chair with no arms, and don't scoot in too far, lest you trap yourself. Now, this might seem a little crazy to some of you, but it works wonders. No, I don't think my friend or his friends will attack me, but the mental excercise alone strengthens your Will dramatically, and it makes you much more aware than the average hoodlum. And with awareness, comes self defense, because you can avoid almost every fight. Which brings me to the question : friend Blackspear, how in thunderation did you allow 7+ gang bangers to sneak up on you and push a fight? I mean leaving the feasibility of the situation aside, you'd have to be deaf, dumb, blind, and one-legged to let them get close in the first place!:rolleyes: oh well, just some of my views on self defense, people.

Forge Virtue and Honor in the hot fire of hard work

Gabriel

P.S. - Are any of you familiar with Mantis or any form of Chin Na? I mean, those systems are built for real life. Where else do you snap arms, kneecaps, legs, and fingers into pieces? For in a real life and death fight, such as the one with bats, knives, ect. posted by blackspear, thats what I would use, when done right an arm break can be executed just as fast as a punch or kick.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Gabriel

Where else do you snap arms, kneecaps, legs, and fingers into pieces? For in a real life and death fight, such as the one with bats, knives, ect. posted by blackspear, thats what I would use, when done right an arm break can be executed just as fast as a punch or kick.


You mean besides Brazillian Ju Jutsu
;)

[KC Elbows]

I am the only Reality Guy here, as can be seen under my name. I am highly offended by all of you coming on here and speaking for us Reality Guys!

As a Reality Guy, I always spar at 99.97 per cent, no more, no less. Anyone who spars at 100 per cent is a fool, for that added .03 per cent is merely fluff, totally unnecessary to demolish your opponent. That is the reality of it, for I am a Reality Guy.

I have trained for all possible scenarios, so I would say my realistic training methods are realistic, as I would not have named them my realistic training methods were they not. I can fight you anywhere, for my methods cover all possibilities, whether in a garment factory, in a fun house full of mirrors, even in zero g.

Even when I practice forms, it is realistic. In my school, there is no such thing as one man, or victimless, forms. All of our forms involve a forms stylist and a victim. This is very realistic, for it teaches us how to use even the deadliest technique in a live situation.

However, that you even asked shows your loose grip on reality, for would I be a Reality Guy were I not realistic?

[Gabriel]

WD, as far as Brazillian Jiu Jitsu goes, I've had a (perhaps unfair) discrimination towards it ever since I saw Gracie sitting on his back like a ****roach for an hour at a time.;) Since I don't really know more about the art than what I saw from him however, I might be irrationally discounting it.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Gabriel
WD, as far as Brazillian Jiu Jitsu goes, I've had a (perhaps unfair) discrimination towards it ever since I saw Gracie sitting on his back like a ****roach for an hour at a time.;) Since I don't really know more about the art than what I saw from him however, I might be irrationally discounting it.

It's cool, you just have the same views about BJJ as the general public does about Tai Chi.

BJJ is a lot like Gong Fu systems. The training is centered around fundamental positions and transitions. These are the equivalent of stances and footwork. They consist of defending yourself on your back, escaping from the bottom position (even if your fully mounted), and using various top positions that leave you in a position to attack your opponent while he cannot attack you. There's even a set of positions that leave you half standing on top of the guy with your knee planted on his ribcage so he can't breathe properly. This is the $hit that will save your a$$ in a fight.

The subs and chokes are designed to break limbs and make people pass out. Strikes are considered too dangerous to practice "live" but are drilled in most schools. As well as biting eye-gouging, head butting, and other nasties. Also imagine someone getting you n the ground, smothering you so you can't move your limbs very well, and draws a knife on you. Think about that one for a minute. Afterall, these are Japanese battlefield techniques that have been adapted to a different environment.

A ring fight will definately look different than in the street. I've been tapped in under 20 seconds so many times it's embarrasing. My first time at BJJ standup, I was flying arm barred in less than 20 seconds and dropped straight to my knees.

Like any art, it is up to the individual to figure out how the raw tools can be converted into self defense according to their particular situation, environment, and personality.

[Gabriel]

WD. Very interesting post. Its funny that you mentioned that half standing on the rib cage to prevent breathing. In my kwoon, we practice abdominal breathing with a medicine ball on our chests as we lay flat. I always thought that this was to train us how to breathe properly because after the medicine ball abdominal breathing seemed easier and I gradually developed myself so that I could breathe abdominally all the time without thinking about it. But perhaps its training against some kind of pressure on the body and how to remain calm and breathe normally? Interesting. As far as the knife thing, whenever the opponent has a knife and I don't its not exactly a situation that I prefer. However, a knife that could be turned on me can also be turned on the wielder. Do you guys practice finger strengthening techniques (like finger push ups) for your holds and grabs? Do you use short or long power for strikes? I've been trying to develop my short power lately. are your techniques sort of like a ground variation of Na? I assume you utilize angles of the body, bone misplacing, and tendon separating. very interesting. I'll have to find a BJJ'er to spar with to answer all my questions I guess. :)

In any case, you make BJJ sound way more formidable than I had imagined.

Forge Virtue and Honor in the fires of Hard Work

Gabriel

[CD Lee]

Ryu said:


Real self-defense is the study of criminology, how people react to language, body motions, etc. Real self-defense deals with awareness, de-escalation, surprise attacks, judging environments, finding escape routes, etc.

Fighting and self-defense are different. As Merry said.



I could not agree more. It is a lot about victim, agressor mentality and understanding of those roles. I used a great self defense move I learned the first day of a self defense class on the street, and it worked so well I was shocked. No fancy fists, or feet, or chi-blasts to tell about. However, it was straight out of the instructors mouth, and it worked exactly like he said it would.

This scary, scragly street dude was following me and asking me for money, and he kept coming after me as I walked faster trying to get away. He closed the distance too much, and I turned to him, pointed at his face, and commanded him to 'Stop!' He literally 'jumped' back like I had jumped out and scared him. He studdered, was bewildered, and turned 180 and walked away as fast as he could go!

Of course my next move was going to be a nice stiff palm to his face while I closed the distance, as he was too friggin' close, and my 5 yr. old was with me. This guy was very scary looking, and I am not screwing with my life or my kids on the street. Normally, I am not ready to do something that drastic. This was in a bad part of town.

My point is, that is real street self defense. Thank God I did not have to fight.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, if I understand Chin Na correctly, BJJ is an art that is primarily about ground Chin Na.