Power generation

[circle_walker]

I am learning Jiang Rongqiao's "original style" Bagua Zhang and am curious as to how other practioners develope good power generation. I am also curious about fa jing, though I realize that it is out of my preset abilities. I would be interested in everyones' knowledge and experiences.

[Shooter]

The same principles apply in generating power and issuing with actual contact in most any system - Stealing the opponent's energy and using it against them.

Timing and position are the main tactical points of study in developing the skill.

Breathing, body-unity, relaxation, and sound tactical movement start in the mind. How you preceive your role in conflict and how you train your mind around those perceptions is ultimately what the body expresses as force.

Your role in conflict varies according to the situation, and that's what takes the most time to master. Time spent training takes care of everything else.


Addendum; The only fight is within.

[Zantesuken]

hmmm fa-jing eh? that's a term that gets thrown around a lot with different definitions. I think you've heard Erle Montigue's version of it being merely to kill someone's inside. I don't believe that's correct. It's more rather PART of the definition.

Fa-Jing starts once you practise tai chi or any other internal art. Slowly every time you pr actise you'll produce ging but as you get higher level you will learn to issue it in different ways. Fa jing is basically to create or to issue ging (force/power).

You can say it's part of your tool set as long as you practise. Ging is the steel warpped in cotton.

[circle_walker]

I appreciate the replies. As for general power generation, I see alot of the potential that I just have'nt been able to develope yet. Such as the whole opening/closing practices. As far as fa jing goes? I have heard a few different explanations. Some people like B.K Frantzis, try to portray a more esosteric, mystical veiw of it. Right breathing, do a move, and then a certian ********y exhale, and whamo! That sounds a little far fetched to me. A more down to earth analogy that I read somewhere, was that it is more akin to a wet dog shaking off water. At certian stages you don't see the dog moving, but the water flies off. While I don't understand the principles guiding this as applied to fighting yet, at least its grounded in the everyday. Hopefully, one day with all of your help, I'll understand. Thank you both once again.

[jon]

Hi circle walker.
I chat to you sometimes over on dragonslist.com i post as Lonetiger over there.

I asked this question about power generation when i first came to this board. Someone ( I THINK it was count) gave me an answer which at first i really didnt find much use in.
Basicaly it went along the lines of...
I dont think many will want to tell you the power mechanics of Bagua becouse its more important to discover them for yourself.

At first i didnt really understand this but the more i practice the more i think this was one of the better pieces of advice ive ever been given. ( ill now take the time to thank them - thank you kindly)

Bagua powergeneration is now always fixed and it there are many differing methods of powergeneration in the form you and I both practice "JRC orginal". The main thing is to constantly walk and constantly play your quas untill they become second nature. Over time you will start to see more and more differences between various movements and why you find them linked together. Listing all of the various forms of power gen could take AGES...

Fa-ging

Dead simple, issueing power like a whip though a TOTALY relaxed body so as to accelerate the impact.
Again simply do your form and work up to performing with more and more mechanic and eventualy faster and faster.
I used to think i couldnt properly produse fa-ging, now i KNOW i can. Its just practice, its also bloody dangerous.
I hit my friend in sparring today with a whipped fa ging strike becouse i was desperate and under preasure. I struck him the neck with a back hand slap using only my fingers. It left great big nasty red finger marks accross his neck and stopped him in his tracks. It was darn stupid and i was not meaning to hurt him but this is basicaly what fa ging is. Relaxed whipped power, the dog analogy is perfect.


Anyway im sure someone will disagree with me or tell you something different but thats the nature of the internals, just make your own darn road ;)

All the best happy training
Jon

[Zantesuken]

hmm jon
but fat ging means to create power. doesn't necessarily have to be in a whip like motion. when you do the slow forms there's ging in your arms. my grandmother showed me once. she was doing the form and as she did i had to press in all the directions i could and i could never seem to move her. this is also another way you use ging.

ging is basically force without force!

and to circle about that thing baout the dog moving here it goes. Basically when you see some external styles using the hip they use a lot of whip like movements that everyone can see. At higher levels of internal stuff you try to reduce the visibility of movement.

Like in push hands you train yourself to neutralize the other's power and then bring it back to to them. When you first start off (most) will make large circular movements but as the get better they seem to just bend and go and no circle is present. They're style producing that circular movement but it's so small you can't see it. That's when you are good. When you produce power without being seen.

[dedalus]

You might also like to explore the "wringing" movements in many of the JRQ postures and transitions.

[circle_walker]

Thank you all again. Jon(aka LT) it's good to see you here as well, and I appreciate your advice. I heard someone else speak of practicing the JRQ form, and it reveals it's secrets along the way. This was geared more towards throwing though. Dedalus, would you mind giving some names of "wringing" postures? It would seem that I have found the right audience for my questions. I appreciate it.:D

[Fu-Pow]

Yeah I think Fa Jing can be expressed in a lot of different was. But the "engine" driving it is the same.

Here is a question for you guys. Can you produce Faht Jing without an opponent?

If you are "stealing" your opponents energy to generate force then how can you generate without the opponent?

Or does it just become stronger with the opponent?

I'm thinking of a the spring analogy. If I press on a spring it will bounce back. The more I press on it the harder it bounces back.

I guess we are constantly in the force of gravity, so can we use gravity to "compress" the spring and produce force?

Thanks in advance.

[Shooter]

Can you produce Faht Jing without an opponent?

-Yes and no.



If you are "stealing" your opponents energy to generate force then how can you generate without the opponent?

-Peng.



Or does it just become stronger with the opponent?

It can be progressive or explosive depending on the interaction and the level of one's skill.

Sometimes Ming, sometimes An, sometimes Hua...according to how you've facilitated the ideas I mentioned earlier.

[Zantesuken]

hmm
ging is produced even when you do the form. There's no reason that you can't stop fat ging.

A lot of you read a lot of books and know about li, peng and stuff like that but sometimes it's really linear thinking. Chinese has a lot of out of the box thinking that needs to be assessed inorder to gain a higher understanding.

I can't really help when someone talks about peng because that's mandarin, i'm different dialect.

If i could read the old old oldschool chinese i would translate it on this forum. I found this BOXFUL of old old old old tai chi books. Some form chen, some from yang, tai chi stories and all this stuff in chinese. heh

[Kumkuat]

So what is peng jing?

[Shooter]

So what is peng jing?

You don't know?

[Kumkuat]

Well, in the simplist terms, it's the core jing in internal martial arts. I guess I was asking what are the requirements to get this jing?

[Shooter]

I guess I was asking what are the requirements to get this jing?

Practice.

[Fu-Pow]

I believe peng is the feeling of being connected yet unable to pull apart.

Hard to explain. And I've only had the most limited experience with it.

It definitely gives you a heavy and warm feeling.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Consider the spring.. flexible, pliable.. until something supplies enough energy (which the spring stores in its coils).. then, that same energy is returned, overwhelming the very source which supplied it.. and the spring returns to its docile nature..

The source can be external.. or, we can individually expand and contract our "inner springs", training them to maximize their potential.. practice!! The good instructors will help you shape and tone your "spring", they will show you how it works.. The spring receives and stores (yields) as energy is applied, waiting for the precise instant to release it.. even if that release is laterally in an emptying and escaping motion.. most of us have tried to compress those springs from "click-pens" between our fingers, only to have them pop-out and "put someone's eye out".. oops, sorry, just remembering dear ol' Mom's warnings..

Our Chi is like our spring..

Be well, do good deeds.. ultimately, we are judged by those same deeds..

[Fu-Pow]

Interesting you mention Chi.

I think if I was going to break down training into 3 physiological levels it would be the following:

On one level you have concetric muscle contraction, even internal arts have this to some degree or you wouldn't be able to move around.

Inside of that you have tendon/ligament power, which is the "elastic energy" inherent especially in internal arts.

Inside of that is the breath/"chi"/psychological level. ( Although I have a hard time believing in Chi , if I breath in and out in standing meditation if feels like my chi is pushing out to my palms and then back in.)

Anyways, that my working theory right now.

[circle_walker]

Thank you for yoiur replies. Tai Chi Bob, your reply was most helpful. It reminds me of some of my teacher's instructions. Some of the postures move from a contracted one (hiding flower under leaves comes to mind), to an open one (wild goose leaves flock). The transition from these two postures to me illistrate the energy you seem to be referring to. It was helpful hearing phrased that way. Thanks again.