Words on Kicking, (anything I need to add)

[dre_doggX]

I dont know what your doing worng so I just going to tell your what to do right.(this doesnt apply to any certain style or art, its unviersal) just on how to kick learn these rules from people of all kinds of disciplines.

1)first when downing a side kick make sure the kicking foot travels in to te target in a straight diagonal line, this means that you dont lift your foot backwards to your waist then throw in at your target, because then all your doing is using you butt muscles, you wanna your groin muscles and your waist. This doesnt mean you cant bend your knee, it just means your shin part of you leg and your thigh part of your leg should stay in align,DONT **** YOUR LEG BACK, this takes a while and is harder but you'll get it.


2)Second, a kick is similar to a punch in the way that you remain relax tell the last second. Tensing only the foot when kick with the foot. the same with any other striking part of the body, knee, foot, finger etc. this helps I dont know what level you use qi(chi) or not but, here is something simply, when being evasive like not attacking or before an attack, inhale easliy feel or imagine qi(chi) sinking to the Dan Tien (four finger widths below the belly button) like hard iron and the rest of your body is soft like silk. when attacking exhale qi flowing into the foot(in this case) but when you tense the foot the attacking part is like iron and the extermites but the core of the body and the dan tein is like silk. When the outside is hard the inside is soft and vice versa.

3) Balance. when you side kick or any kick the button foot that is touching the ground should not be tip toe on the ball of the foot( in my opinon). the Bottom foot should not only be flat on the ground, you should imagine it gripping the floor, as the other foot kicks.

4) with all the above taking, it doesnt hurt to lean your waist into a kick, while you kick, turn sliding you waist and body forward into it, leaning the ground leg alittle forward to.(this my or my not be acceptable in form but its not a worng why to kick)its a correct.

5) OH AND THIS IS PROBABLY WHAT I SHOULD OF JUST SAID IN THE BEGINING BUT YOU ME, IT ONLY TAKES LESS THEN A MONTH TO DO THIS SPLITS IF...

YOU SPEND 1 MINUTE EACH OF THE THREE SPLITS. ADD THREE MINUTES THE TOTAL EXCERISE.
1 MINUTE TO THE LEFT
1 MINUTE TO THE CENTER
1 MINUTE TO THE RIGHT.

[fa_jing]

I disagree about the splits. Case in point: me. I spend at least 5 minutes a day in the stretch, I do the "three splits", my flexibility is improving, but no, it's been many months and I still am about a foot off of the ground.

-FJ

[Sho]

The worst mistake people do in a side kick is that their body structure is bending. In other words, the leg is pointing at different direction as your body. The proper way to do it is to have the head, waist, knee and foot in the same line. This way more power can be generated, because the power goes through the entire body. Very similar to hand strikes, when told that they should be done by hip rotation. If one is doing this wrong, a good way to practice is by looking at the target over your shoulder (which side you are kicking with) to make the leg and upper body to be in the same line.

[apoweyn]

good advice sho.

[JWTAYLOR]

Yeah, that splits thing is way off. I spend 20 minutes + every night stretching, with several minutes in the forward, left and right positions mentioned. I've been doing this for over 10 years. I can do the splits now, but only after about 20 minutes of actually doing the split stretch itself, and I have to be warmed up. Depends on the person.

JWT

[apoweyn]

other thoughts on kicking (which you may or may not find applicable for yourself):

on a roundhouse, let the hips proceed the leg. often, people lead with the foot, so that the foot extends further into the target than do either the knee or the hips. difficult to get any penetration that way. better to shoot your hips through the target, bring the thigh behind it and finally winging the foot in there like the tip of a whip.

with the front kick, the typical way i see it thrown bugs me. point with the knee, and then the foot arcs upward from there. my problem with that is twofold: 1) a person with a tight guard will keep their elbows in, so that there's a danger of a sloppy front kick rising up and slamming the ball of your foot into the opponent's elbow. (i made this mistake a while back, ironically while lecturing on how dangerous it was, and i didn't walk properly on that foot for well over a week.) 2) with an upward arcing front kick, there aren't very many compelling targets. essentially, you've got the groin (good target) and then the opponent's body is essentially a vertical plane until you reach the chin. many hits directed there will end up being little more than glancing blows if you don't concentrate on forcing the kick outward rather than upward.

personally, i prefer to raise the knee up and then front kick slightly downward in a stomping motion.

alternatively, for closer range, i'd use a short snapping front kick. but i can only target relatively low line targets with it. try this sometime: get an airshield (heavy bag, whatever), chamber your front kick, and fire away. if you're anything like me, you'll find that when you hit the lower targets, the foot shoots in and out like a piston. but the higher you get on the target, the more swinging is involved. and probably, the more scuffing. a thrusting-type front kick hits with more authority, in my experience. but you really have to lean back to hit the head with it (which i'm not advocating).


stuart b.

[myosimka]

excellent point on the front kick!! Hate watching people swing that leg up like that. Might as well be doing the can-can. Analogy I always give students is trying to slam on the brakes. Swinging at the knee just kicks the dash. Stomp on the brake pedal seems to fix the problem.

Also a good point about the roundhouse. Breaking the plane of the hip and bringing the leg forward really weakens it. However, I have definitely seen people take it to far the other way and try that kick with the knee very bent and they just get jammed up with no significant impact. So I always try to stress that the leg should be at or near full extension at the point of contact.

[Suntzu]

so your saying do more of a 'PUSH' kick rather than a 'SNAP' kick??? But I do agree with what yall say tho…

[dre_doggX]

thank you for your advice keep it coming, I am going to some this up into something really long when I am done reading.

[joedoe]

My kicks suck :(

[Fu-Pow]

Front Snap and front "push" seem to be two different kicks.
If I was kicking the groin or chin I'd use the snap kick with the toes pointing out (like round house). If I was "pushing" forward I'd use the heel. I guess the ball of the foot might work also, but it seem like it could make you more off balance than the heel.

[African Tiger]

Dre, if I can offer you some advice. TAKE CARE OF THOSE KNEES! After years of TKD and kick boxing (plus everything else) my kicks suck, cause my knees are shot to hell.

Without knees you have no stability, no snap, and nothing to land upon after connecting or missing. You therefore have no kick.

Don't go all out if you can avoid it, and get into the habit of icing your knees down after class. Definitely stretch the quads after class too, but gently. At the first sign of any knee pain, go see someone - PLEASE! Don't wait until you turn 30 to have your wheels checked, like my stupid a.s.s :mad:

[scotty1]

I can dig that man.

My knees hurt sometimes. That post has made me think maybe I should check it out.

[myosimka]

Love thrust kicks for the following reasons.

1) Easier on the knees. The act of pushing your foot out using hip and knee motion is something you use every day walking the body is engineered for it. Snapping up is not a natural motion and is rough on the knees. I've been doing them for 12 years and my hips and knees are actually in better shape than when I started.

2) Power. I'm willing to bet that everyone here can squat more weight than they can move using any other exercise. Thrust kicks use the same muscle groups as a squat thrust.

3)Targets. A snap kick to the body is worthless. In fact, I tend to ignore them when people throw them. Why block something that's not going to hurt or move me at all? That's when I'm not dropping my elbow on top of their instep. And as to the snap kick target of the groin. A thrust kick hurts like hell there as well.


I will give you that the snap kick is slightly faster and that it's easier to hit high targets. Personally I steer clear of head shot front kicks. And as for speed, I think power is a more important consideration(except for groin shots.)

Push is sort of an ok description of the motion but I hate the because as soon as I say push to students they start placing their feet on their partners and pushing. In other words, no impact. Plus they try to deliver it way too close. So I prefer thrust. Semantics.

As to striking surface, I like the ball of the foot. Better focusing of impact. If you go for the heel you are probably going to end up making contact with your entire foot. Impact being measured in PSI, you've just cut down the effectiveness by dramatically increasing the square inches portion. Kind of like punching with just 2 or 3 knuckles(not here to argue punch structure) vs. entire surface of boxing glove.

[apoweyn]

myosimka,

good point about the round kick. you don't want to take my advice to the point that you never actually kick. you just drag your leg behind you and into the target. that's no go. just like in the whip analogy, the hip (handle) is responsible for starting the motion. but you don't just draw a whip across a target. you use that initial acceleration to get the leg moving and then fire it in.

and i definitely agree with your comment about the 'push' kick. while pushing is a viable tactic, it's one of many. and most of those tactics require impact, as you said. the name 'push' really does encourage people to do just that. push.

i read once that you should concentrate on withdrawing the kick as fast as you fire it out in the first place. and i'm a firm believer in that idea (even with the side kicks that people love to 'stick' so much). you just get a different 'feel' from it, in my experience.

you know that desk toy thing that people used to have, the one with the set of four hanging balls? swing the one on one end and the one on the other end goes flying upward when it hits. but if you were to push the first ball instead of letting velocity take it, the one on the other end wouldn't move. that's how i liken kicking an air shield with impact rather than pushing. your leg is the first ball, the force goes through the shield, and something in the other guy's gut bounces up like the second ball.

i have no idea whether that analogy has any grounding in real physics. it's just how i think about it.


suntzu,

i'm not suggesting pushing rather than snapping, necessarily. i'm saying that the conventional use of snapping kicks isn't all it's cracked up to be. the higher the target, the more the foot arcs upward (which is awkward) and the more the upper body has to fade back to reach the target (which is okay, but the payoff isn't that great). the lower the target, the more the snap kick can travel in essentially a straight line rather than swinging. good for the groin, knee, shin, and perhaps the gut.


fu pow,

well put. i personally don't go for the chin with a front kick. but i think you're right that those are viable targets.


stuart b.

[JWTAYLOR]

Witht the exception of the knife edge kick to the knee, I've discounted all of the snaping kicks. I want my kicks to put them back, or put them down. For that, THRUST that kick, and push those hips.

Oh, and Myosimka, that brake stomp thing is a great anology. I think I'll start using that one. Thanks.

As far as kicks to the head, I preffer the back kick. I know, sound weird, but try this one:

If you are standing left foot forward, throw a left jab or left back knuckle out at your opponent's nose. Make sure you are really trying to penetrate.
Then, just as your land either lands, or is blocked, while your shoulder is still moving forward, pull the other shoulder around with your hips and SPIN around and do a back kick with your right leg at your opponent's chin. If you are too close, aim it at the groin.

It's pretty fun, and it works allot. If you time the jab and spin right, your heel will often come up under their guard and between their hands, finding the chin nicely. You are prime for them to sweep and throw if you miss, but you body and head are pretty much out of danger otherwise.

JWT

[apoweyn]

JWT,

that's very similar to how i teach the back kick too. i don't usually target the chin, but i do teach it almost exclusively off of the jab now. gotta cover that spinning motion.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

one more thing about the snapping front kick: it can be used (to low targets) at a range too close for the thrusting kick. just thought i'd throw that in there.


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Thrusting front kick with the heel! Or whole foot, it is still plenty of power. AFTER you make contact, some advocate pushing with the toe. I tried this recently, found that this allows you to move the other guy back more, if that is what you desire.
Cleave the center. Some say co.ck the leg and retract it when you finish the kick, like in my TKD days 10 years ago. Now, I deliver my kicks while moving my body with some momentum in, and fully extend the hip on my front kick, so retracting the leg back to the co.cked postion would help me fall over, which you see alot in TKD tournaments too. The only time it's good to re-co.ck, is if you have kept your balance and are trying for a double kick. Personally, I come back about halfway, than step forward or at an angle.
Body momentum kicks are the most powerful. Sometimes you kick in defense, sometimes you kick to bother. But if you really want to do some damage, and draw the opponent's guard down, you move your body in as you kick. 4 Examples:

1. Wing Chun exchange step front heel kick.

2. Muy Thai rear leg roundhouse

3. TKD step behind side kick

4. JKD forward burst side kick

That said, execution of such a kick is situational. All of these are agressive kicks that require some distance to execute. You can't become predictable with your kicks, then they lose their effectiveness.

In Wing Chun, we also have low-line kicks that we use when we are already engaged up top, or as from the hanging-leg block position. It is not possible to generate the same power with this type of kick, more important is balance and the accuracy to the knee, groin, or other painfull part of the lower body.

-FJ