Mantis vs Mui Thai [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

mantis108

05-16-2002, 01:02 PM

I think an important aspect of Muay Thai is the Clinch position. This is one area that is not being examined carefully by traditional Chinese martial arts when dealing with Muay Thai. A few of the MMA people have been working on Muay Thai Clinch and takedown plus ground striking (with MT) and grappling (with BJJ). Not to mention the elbows and knees in clinching range. Personally, for a Kung Fu stylist to go against Muay Thai, he must train hard on the physical training paying extra attention to cardio and impact (iron body) training.

Speed and endurance before techniques.

Mantis108

MightyB

05-17-2002, 05:26 AM

I had a good workout in my kung fu school last night with alot of my sihing that reinforced a lot of things about PM.

PM is a very brutal form of self defense. Outside of the ring, if the PM player trains hard, he should win against a Thai boxer because of the dynamic range of techniques that are in PM. Thai boxing is meant to wear down and eventually knock out an opponent in a specified duration of time with rules governing what techniques can be used. PM is designed to take an attacker out in the fastest and most efficient manner possible.

In the ring, the Thai boxer will win. He trains to use the rules and the time limits to his advantage. It's their game.

dezhen2001

05-17-2002, 06:31 AM

Hi guys, although i am not a PM practitioner, i find this thread quite interesting. Hope you don't mind me stirring the pot a little :)

Mighty B i have to disagree there when you say: Thai boxing is meant to wear down and eventually knock out an opponent in a specified duration of time. I recently saw a match on TV (can't remember the fighters name) and it lasted all of 37 seconds! They train for knockout in the fastest way possible. Otheriwse it is just 'entertainment'. I trained in MT for a year, and by no means am an expert, but it basically trained you to knock the heck out of the other guy as quickly and as hardly as possible!

Also when you say:if the PM player trains hard, he should win against a Thai boxer because of the dynamic range of techniques that are in PM.. Something like Wing Chun is also known to be very effective, and it has a limited number of techniques. :)

Mantis108: i agree. The clinch in MT is something very difficult.

For me it seems more than any specific technique it's important to train the attributes which make your skill better: positioning, distance, timing, a calm mind, focus, intent, speed, power... with these you can adapt to what happens. Of course, a conditioned body (hard qigong) will also help! :D

just my thoughts right now,

david

MightyB

05-17-2002, 07:07 AM

Hence the thigh kicks and cardio training for round upon round of fighting. Thai boxing is meant to wear down just like western boxing. Mike T. in his younger years knocked people out in seconds, but he still trained to go the distance. Why? Because early round knock-outs are rare. It's great if you get one, but don't count on it.

Wing Chun is simply complex. It's not the forms or techniques, it's the sensitivity training that takes a lifetime to learn. Don't over-simplify your style.

Let's see, thai boxing training regimen-- Harden shins, condition body for abuse and endurance, master simple techniques to use in combinations. Use your shin to kick guy's thighs until his legs get shaky, clinch, then use knees and elbows to knock him out.

Yup, still looks like it's designed to wear an opponent down...

dezhen2001

05-17-2002, 08:10 AM

Hi Mighty B,

I wasn't simplifying my system - i know is darn hard to learn :) Actually, compared to everything else i have done it's the most challenging. But what i meant is that there are many more styles with much more diversity of movement and technique than WC. High kicks, round kicks, hooking punches, extensive grappling and throwing... all these things are not covered in most wing chun (thought there are elements of qin na etc.).

Anyway, back on topic...

Actually, i pretty much agree with what you have said, just form a slightly different angle. I would say more that they train to try and get the knock out as quickly as possible, but also to go the distance as it's avery hard think to do.

Leg kicks are quite troublesome unless you have either shown how to deal with them or conditioned, or both these things. generally they d@mn hurt :D I remember the first time i got hit by one by a friend (before i took MT) and really, it stopped me in my tracks. But now that i know how to deal with it (a bit better), generally i either move in and take his centre or take it .
I'm not really so good at dealing with the clinch yet, as my WC sucks (same distance really). But i'm getting better.

david

Mantis9

05-17-2002, 11:57 AM

When talking about any style, whether its BJJ, Hung Gar, or Mui Thai, we always speak in vast generalisation. These always flesh out our stereotypes of other systems, which in turn insults or compliment martial artists alike. That's why so many threads in the Kung Fu forum go terribly wrong.

With that said, here's my generalisations.

First, when engaging another fighter, let alone another fighter from a different style, it all comes down to your approach. You want to use yourself and your styles advantages and at the same time not play into your opponents.

Mui Thai boxers, generally, like to zone off their bodies. The head is most vunerable and least conditionable body part, so therefore the Thai fighter raises his arms in the classical MT posture. This protects the head, but leave the body more open. His body, legs, and arms are conditioned to receive punishment, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a MT fighter doesn't block, just IMHO that he is more concerned about protecting his head and therefore more open.

He also centers his body more to make available his whole arsenal of arms and legs.

Now, barring the fact that ever fighter, regardless of style, is a unique fighter, I would look to take advantage of range. I wouldn't engage in exchanges, being that he's conditioned for this, unless I had a distinct speed advantage. When clinging, or in close, I would attempt to control or present a difficulty to my opponent by keeping his arms lowered. This would (hopely) avoid hard stopped elbows and the plum position, which is favorite firing position.

I would also use the Mantis addage of opening the gates with your hands to strike with the legs. Perhaps, this would take the MT fighter out of his rythm and drop his gaurd.

I gleened most of my perspective from my sister, who was involved with MT for several years. And a guy named Ryan. He's a JKD fellow, who prefers MT and Savate techniques for stand up. We get to cross hands on occasion and enlighten each other. Well, he enlightens me.

How that all sound to you guys and gals?

mantis108

05-17-2002, 01:21 PM

Hi Guys,

Good points and very different perspective on the matter as well.

Hard Qigong rules! lol... :) :D

Mantis9

Good observations and interesting approach which sounds like you are planning to fight him head on with your striking skill. Man, you are a brave soul. :)

A few things to look at:

1) Clinch is somewhat a Chin Na/trapping move. It is crude but effective. So as such it could be deal with as the same principles of countering a Chin Na move that is to say don't let it slap on and sink in. Get out of it as quickly as possible.

2) Your guard (against knees and elbows) should be up as soon as you realize you are getting in or in a clinch.

3) The "hands are the door" adage is also what the Thai boxers believes in. That's why it would seems they don't do much with the hands.

4) The stance that they assume is deceptive. While you might think he is open below it is where their canons are.

5) Another powerful tool to stop you from approaching them is the Push Kick which can wear you out quite quickly to.

6) One of the reason for them to train endurance is that they realize the brutal punishment that their bodily weapons inherit in their style can bring. Fighting force against force isn't the smartest idea. That is the same idea of using soft to subdue hard. The one who has endurance and capitalize on the dynamic shift of combat situation is going to win the day. I don't know why many traditional stylists don't see this ponit. Even Ali used the roop-a-dope to triumph over foreman. Why is that martial sports capitalize this principle well and we don't? Or is it just our martial culture's arrogancy? I think we really need to reflect upon this.

Anyway, great topic once again, Paul. :)

Mantis108

PaulLin

05-17-2002, 02:36 PM

Clinch, I have one move that should be handling this situation well, only that is not in mantis, it is a combol of BaGua and ShuaiChiao.

As soon as the clinch postion is set, you should put one of your hand under his jaw, the other one between his leg (in BaGua, it is call ZeTaiChaDi)

At that postion, if he rise the knee out side the elbow, you will just pressure the inside of the upper leg and grab the leg. If inside the elbow, you will do the same grab but add a short strike to the inside of leg above knee to stop power out let.

After leg grab, turned toward the grab arm side and move your hip into him. Smack his back of head to ground with your hand that is under his jaw. If the leg was caught form out side of elbow, you can add a leg sweep while doing that (in ShuaiChaio, it is called DeHeh).

Their back of the head and inside the legs are not conditioned. All main arteries areas cannot be conditioned the hard way like they did.

Against normal fighting positon of MT, you can try the center forward approach. In 8 step mantis, it can go like this:

Used TsuanBu foot work, ChuanChuai hand, to get in as soon as he step forward. Regardless hitting any thing or not, you will Guin Shou after the ChuanChuai, shoot your knee in the center of his legs and bump with shoulder forward, besure you stay low enough with your posture. The other hand will gard up above opposit shoulder. That hand will not block, it is set to grab and pull what ever comes.

Regardless of he strike elbow or not(if strike, grab with the upper hand and pull behind the head while strike your own elbow forward, the pull should help your elbow strike forward), strike the elbow forward, either toward the throat or the triagle in the middle of chest.

After that, either QuinDang or BungChuan, or both, can be applied to finish it up.

Excuse me about using specialized 8 step terms, I want to keep this inside the mantis sociecty.

Mantis9

05-17-2002, 03:23 PM

Don't get me wrong, I don't think taking on a well condition MT fighter on directly is smart. I was think about their positioning, stance, and other situation you might find yourself in when encountering one. Your right about the canons, being that the switch, push, and kneeing techniques are quit powerful.

What I was trying to get at was a way to engage a MT fighter that would be uncomfortable for them and comfortable for us. Employing many of the 12 soft/flexible methods would be appropriate. The 8 hard would be less appropriate engaging an aggressive, offensive minded style, except when the opportunity. Plus a smaller MT fighter, relative to yourself, may present the opportunity to jam him/her, having superior strength or reach on our part.

I also believe that our sticking/leaking hand abilities would serve us well when caught up close, which could avoid the plum.

Excellent point about Chi Na and the push kick

Thanks for the reply.:)

More later.

PaulLin

05-17-2002, 04:17 PM

Well, I think the combo of soft then hard will work wonder. Such as Gua and PiCha combo The hard Guin shou can be used to get in position too in against MT by using forarms against inside upper legs and arms. 12 soft are also good for throwing set ups.

Hum... I don't see Tsi works well in MT though.

yu shan

05-17-2002, 06:09 PM

Excuse this slight tangent from this fine thread. What are your view points on conditioning? Over on the general Kung Fu forum, I see alot of disrespect. In our Mantis, we condition every night. We all know mt boxers are fit in this way, tell me some ways you guys and gals condition. I will gladly share...

********note from moderator***********
Please just start a new thread rather than "slight tangents".
I know its not always possible to restrain yourselves, but please consider it.
~BTL

PaulLin

05-19-2002, 12:04 PM

Does your conditioning make your body parts hard and even when the Qi runs low, it wouldn't make much of different? I wondered MT's conditioning has any thing to do with Qi or just dead bone and muscells.

Mantis9

05-22-2002, 08:33 AM

MT body harding comes from receiving repeated blows or throwing repeated blows from a partner or and object. Its has some similarities to Qi cultivating exercises but it more abusive to the body IMHO.

MT fighters don't have a long career. Its not uncommon for them to suffer life long problems with internal organ functions, bones, and torn muscle and cartlidge. As a personal anecdote, my sister's MT instructor in his thirties, who usually is seen with a cane during promotions and fight events which is directly related to his career as a fighter.

The main difference between the CMA approach and the MT (this is just a generalization, not universal) is that Iron body or any other body condition is the development of Qi for health. When practicing Qi gong, Iron palm, and anything of else, I am doing it for my health and martial conditioning (ie better breath, thicker bone, etc.). I don't think MT fighter body condition for health.

SevenStar

06-08-2002, 03:34 AM

Originally posted by MightyB

Let's see, thai boxing training regimen--

Harden shins,
Perfecting your weapons

condition body for abuse and endurance,
Be prepared for pain in the event that you have to take it, or to have the stamina to run away if you have to

master simple techniques to use in combinations.
I'd rather perfect 20 than half a.ss do 70, and there are several complexities to it - go to a local thai gym and ask the instructor about the mechanics of a thai roundhouse.

Use your shin to kick guy's thighs until his legs get shaky, clinch
Did you know that an experienced clincher can make you vomit within minutes? Also, kicking the legs is like taking the bullets out of an opponents gun. He can't fight or run without them and they are generally easy targets. Also, on the street a thai fighter is not gonna just throw leg kicks till his opponent drops. If anything it would be a distraction tech while he closes the distance for the preferred knees and elbows.

then use knees and elbows to knock him out.
Common sense - the knee and elbow are excellent striking surfaces.

SevenStar

06-08-2002, 03:43 AM

Nice posts, mantis9 and mantis108. But remember, the thai guard that was referred to in mantis9's post really isn't used anymore. Most thai fighters have adopted more of a boxer's stance and guard. there are different stances - offensive, defensive, etc. but the hands remain the same - like a boxer. This will not leave the midsection open as 1. the midsection will be partially zoned off and 2. thai boxers, like boxers, will block body shots with their arms and elbows.

SevenStar

06-08-2002, 03:52 AM

Originally posted by mantis108

6) One of the reason for them to train endurance is that they realize the brutal punishment that their bodily weapons inherit in their style can bring. Fighting force against force isn't the smartest idea. That is the same idea of using soft to subdue hard. The one who has endurance and capitalize on the dynamic shift of combat situation is going to win the day. I don't know why many traditional stylists don't see this ponit. Even Ali used the roop-a-dope to triumph over foreman. Why is that martial sports capitalize this principle well and we don't? Or is it just our martial culture's arrogancy? I think we really need to reflect upon this.

Actually, there are elements of softness to it. I was comparing notes with a one of my shuai chiao partners who also trains in taiji, and I showed him some things in MT which taiji refers to as yielding and also using your opponents energy against him.

As for the high risk in a thai boxer's career (in mantis9's post) that may have been true back in the day, but in this day and age the risk is comparable to that of a boxer.

Merryprankster

06-10-2002, 07:06 AM

What seven said. Master K in New Jersey bounces around like a 19 year old. If you can use one example of a 30 year old instructor to "prove" that Thai boxing is bad for you, then I can use a 50 year old instructor who bounds around like an excited puppy to prove it doesn't.

Many thai boxers--after they have finished being thai boxers, turn to the international boxing circuit and many do quite well. Yep--sounds like they are crippled to me.

There is NOTHING unique to CMA, JMA or any other countries MA's that prevent injury of some kind. IF you had a Northern Mantis Circuit that was as competitive and as large as the Thai Boxing circuit, you would see a similar rate of injury and health problems in later life.

Mantis9

06-10-2002, 11:31 AM

Your right. Not all MT fighter end up debilitated. I was using my sister's instructor's condition as a personal anecdote to drive home the point of my post: MT body hardening and CMA harding are mostly different in approach and technique. That's all.

I think Mike Walrath (the MT instructor) probably had MT get the better part of him. Master K hasn't. Beautiful, I am very happy to hear that he's in good health. It always a tragedy to see a fighter get out too late. Your a fight fan, so you know that champs like Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Larry Holmes and George Foreman, who lived to speak in complete sentences, are the exception not the rule.

And your right, again. Mantis fighter probably wouldn't feel so good after a career similar to a MT fighter. The thurst, I believe, of most CMA conditioning is health, unlike MT, which is more combative. There's overlap between the two perspectives, of course, but to different ends. If that's really not the case, I am open to correction.

Take care.

Merryprankster

06-10-2002, 11:37 AM

Mantis9--actually, most boxers that end up stupid, started out that way. Ali is the extreme of what can happen, of course. That's what happens when you carry your jab low and you use your incredible ability to take a punch to win fights.

As far as the difference between MT/CMA conditioning, couldn't tell you. I don't think I'm qualified to discuss their differences...I'll leave that to Sevenstar. I feel comfortable making some overarching generalizations about the effects fighting has on the body--cumulative trauma over time--but not about specific conditioning methods.

Tainan Mantis

06-10-2002, 08:47 PM

Hi Clinchers,
While visiting Mantis108 in Canada I got him in a secure clinch. I should mention I'm a little over half a head taller than him.
Once I had him secured he reached his free hand up and hooked it behind my clavicle with 2 fingers and pulled down with bone crushing force.

What do you think?
Is it a good technique?
I realize it wouldn't work with mitten style gloves, but...

SevenStar

06-10-2002, 10:02 PM

I think it's the end result of the conditioning that's different. In MT, we are trying to harden out striking surfaces - it seems like it could be liek a type of iron body training, but if I'm not mistaken, the CMA method is actually training the tendons.

PaulLin

06-11-2002, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Hi Clinchers,
While visiting Mantis108 in Canada I got him in a secure clinch. I should mention I'm a little over half a head taller than him.
Once I had him secured he reached his free hand up and hooked it behind my clavicle with 2 fingers and pulled down with bone crushing force.

What do you think?
Is it a good technique?
I realize it wouldn't work with mitten style gloves, but...

Sounds good, since clinche position would make the clavicle shows out and easy to hook on. You can alway bounce upward and strike under the jaw too.