Attn yuanfen:

[rogue]

I'm assuming that twc means traditional WC, how does your style differ? I'm talking about from a high level as the details would be lost on me.

[anerlich]

TWC is normally interpreted as William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun (TM), a substyle of Yip Man Wing Chun taught by William Cheung. You can find info on TWC at

www.cheungswingchun.com

My Sifu was one of William Cheung's most senior students up until 1996. We still do TWC, though we've added a lot of stuff to it.

www.combatcentres.com

There are differences between TWC and other WC styles, as most other WC styles differ from each other as well. Yuanfen may have better knowledge of the differences between what he practices and TWC, I am not familiar with his system.

[yuanfen]

Some of the debates over labels are old stuff. I dont regard TWC as THE traditional wing chun but asa label for whatever William Cheung happens to advocate. Anerlich has directed you to a site which deals with what Cheung does.I learned from Augustine Fong who learned from Ho kam Ming and there appears to be differences in how the two lines approach things, I will touch on some things that I do that are likely to be quite differnt from twc.
1. I have an internalised concept of my axis.(see my article in the Journal of Asian martial Arts)
2. I turn on my axis on a dime- balanced
3. In the basic exercise stance- my knees and toes are moderately in- not out or squished in either..
4. I move in with both feet- I dont drag either foot.
I dont hop in.
5. I control the centerline at all times. I am not eager to go to the blind side-though I can side step if I need to.

Thats for starters in contrasting.
6. I dont watch peoples elbows as Cheung advocates.

[black and blue]

Hi,

Yuanfen said : "I don't drag the feet" - "I don't hop in"
LOL. There are people who hop? :(

If you don't drag either foot is there a tendency for you to rise and fall when when you walk forward/back?

"6. I dont watch peoples elbows as Cheung advocates"

I don't look at the elbows either, but find I do look at the chest. Where do you look?

Duncan

Ps. An idiot for a training partner "looked" at the clock on the wall the other night :) I wish all partners made it so easy for me :D
Alas...

[yuanfen]

Yuanfen

Yuanfen said : "I don't drag the feet" - "I don't hop in"
LOL. There are people who hop?

((Seems like it. Atleast little bounces))

If you don't drag either foot is there a tendency for you to rise and fall when when you walk forward/back?

((NO! Important to move the whole body together.Watch a mouse...but dont fall into the mouse trap<g>))

"6. I dont watch peoples elbows as Cheung advocates"

I don't look at the elbows either, but find I do look at the chest. Where do you look?

((I will fake you out if you look at my chest by wiggling pectorals.Into the eyes in love and war-though intent varies.Watch a pit bull))

Duncan

Ps. An idiot for a training partner "looked" at the clock on the wall the other night I wish all partners made it so easy for me
Alas...

((Nature isnt fair in doling out intelligence. Perhaps a version of clocking someone?<g>)) Yuanfen

[Paul]

I'm just curious about

5.

what happens if you don't control the centerline? nobody is perfect after all? or are they? If so where do I sign up?

[yuanfen]

One trains to always control the center line from different angles,
positions, vertical or horizontal. If you lose the centerline- could happen- you recover it- with wing chun dynamics you do so quickly and efficiently... a little move or adjustment and you are home again.Position position position.
Practice practice practice wing chun.

[kungfu cowboy]

I will fake you out if you look at my chest by wiggling pectorals.

LOL!!:D

[rogue]

Thanks for clearing that up yuanfen. I thought you all were referring to traditional as in old style WC versus modern (changed, added to) forms of WC.

[yuanfen]

No problem Rogue. Back to the shadows.

[anerlich]

I dont regard TWC as THE traditional wing chun but asa label for whatever William Cheung happens to advocate.
Just to clarify, I don't believe TWC to be anything other than William Cheung's interpretation of WC either. I have always though the whole trad/mod thang as perpetuated by him is a load of hooey.

A few other points:

2. I turn on my axis on a dime- balanced
TWC advocates pivoting without translating the vertical axis also. We would add a step to move out of the way of an attack.

In the basic exercise stance- my knees and toes are moderately in- not out or squished in either
In TWC the feet are parallel in neutral stance. Opinions vary amongst TWC practitioners, but I was taught that the knees come in naturally as the stance is lowered, we do not attempt to pinch them together or draw them in unnaturally.

4. I move in with both feet- I dont drag either foot.
TWC NEVER drags the feet. We ALWAYS take small steps, even on the pivot.

I dont hop in.
I presume you are referring to the TWC entry technique here. This is a magnified step used to explosively bridge the gap, with the knee raised to protect the lower gate. I've seen kickboxers present almost identical movements while moving in a kick, so this is not unique to TWC. While technically it is a "hop", the movement is strongly forward and not upward. The goose step and a stroll in the park resemble each other about as much as the TWC and what most people regard as a "hop" do.

I am not eager to go to the blind side
IMHO your distinction here is absolutely correct. TWC will ALWAYS try to get the blind side if an opportunity is presented.

I dont watch peoples elbows as Cheung advocates.
Personally I think this tactic is overrated. Useful for the beginner, but with experience you are taking your cues from the movements of chest, shoulders, and hips. We do advocate trying to control the opponent by controlling his elbows and knees with our own limbs.

Some of the other "maxims" of TWC IMHO also have problems, e.g. the use of the side neutral stance as a preparation stance. Experience in watching tournaments shows that those who adopt this stance end up either quickly stepping back into a front stance when pressured, or else get pushed back against the ropes very quickly. William Cheung can make this work, observation shows that most trainees cannot. Most of the training at my school now involves working from a front stance.

[yuanfen]

Thanks. Good clarification of TWC and changes Andrew. Joy

[old jong]

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ...Good one Yuanfen :D

[reneritchie]

Here're some observations, not sure if they're helpful or not (based on Cheung's system vs. what is most prevelant in the rest of WCK)

- Tends to keep bridges higher
- Tends to maintain 50/50 weighting when turning or stepping
- Tends to lift feet and reposition rather than shifting
- Tends to keep more space during pre-engagement and engagement
- Tends to take the flank ("blind side") if possible during engagement
- Different choreography in "advanced" Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee, Muk Yan Jong, Luk Dim Boon Gwun, and Baat Jaam Do.
- Differences, in part, include earlier and more frequent integration of more varied footwork patterns.
- Uses a two line (center and central) positioning system
- Uses an elbow tracking interception system at longer range
- Tends to be taught primarily in English

Rgds,

RR

[anerlich]

Very astute observations.

[byond]

hey big ren,
where did you get so much info on hfy???:rolleyes:

[yuanfen]

he hung around ohio briefly!

in a different era i did too- different part of Ohio where another secret art- the green dragon resides.

[reneritchie]

Brian, Joy,

I did have a chance to see Gee sifu demonstrate HFY in Ohio, and Meng sifu and some of his classmates and students demonstrate it on two or three other occaisions. I was, however, referring to William Cheung's system, though on reflection, some of the same points hold true (though Gee sifu did have Cantonese terminology for what he taught).

Rgds,

RR