ATTN: Grapplers!

[scotty1]

OK, I recognise that fights go the ground, and I might have to defend a takedown, whether trained or non.

Now, I'm assuming that an untrained takedown attempt can be lumped in with a trained one in the sense that, ultimately, its still someone trying to get close to you, grab a part of you and put you on the floor. Obviously the well trained attempt is going to be faster, more difficult to defend against etc. but I'm hoping for the sake of convenience that the following question could be answered with respect to both. Follow me?

BUT, if the answer cannot be applied to both trained and untrained attempts I would rather the answers dealt with attempts by the untrained, as that it is a lot more likely to occur than spilling a BJJ stylist's pint down the pub.

So: from a grapplers point of view, what is the best thing one can do to avoid being taken down?

Or, to put it another way, if you are trying to take someone down, what are the nightmare defences that make you think
"sh!T"?

Thanks, and apologies for asking a question that you've probably answered loads of times before.

[Mr.Sleazy]

OK Scotty1 here are some of the best:

1. If you see the takedown in advance

-if it is a low takedown (double leg, single leg etc..) smash your knee into their face on the way in. This is a really good one because even if you miss the face you may get ribs or a collarbone. Their momentum adds power to the strike.

-or, go with their momentum, reach down and wrap your arms around their back, and flip them over behind you as you roll over your back. If you do this right you end up in the mount. This works for low takedowns, esp. double leg.

2. If you don't see it coming (and they at least get the clinch)

-the sprawl is an important one. Its easy to train - just have your sparring partner grab you and try to take you down. Lean your weight onto the opponent, spread your legs out behind you, and give yourself a really wide base. Tough to get the takedown. Be ready if they change and try to pull you forwards instead of side or backwards.

-if they go for a low takedown, reach your arm around their head and under the neck and go for the choke at the same time as they are trying to take you down.

All of these should work equally well on trained or untrained; other factors such as manouvering room will be very important.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Mr.Sleazy
OK Scotty1 here are some of the best:

1. If you see the takedown in advance

-if it is a low takedown (double leg, single leg etc..) smash your knee into their face on the way in. This is a really good one because even if you miss the face you may get ribs or a collarbone. Their momentum adds power to the strike.


if you see the shot about 2 weeks in advance maybe. this is one of those theories that stand-up fighters love to believe. its unlikely to do more than erode your balance and help your opponent.

-or, go with their momentum, reach down and wrap your arms around their back, and flip them over behind you as you roll over your back. If you do this right you end up in the mount. This works for low takedowns, esp. double leg.

ah, the captain kirk defense!


2. If you don't see it coming (and they at least get the clinch)

-the sprawl is an important one. Its easy to train - just have your sparring partner grab you and try to take you down. Lean your weight onto the opponent, spread your legs out behind you, and give yourself a really wide base. Tough to get the takedown. Be ready if they change and try to pull you forwards instead of side or backwards.

'the sprawl' is another mantra among the mat-challenged. unless you've spent years working on the leverage and timing involved, unlikely.

[Mr.Sleazy]

I am confused by your quoting methods.

I train in BJJ and Muay Thai, because I don't want to be only a stand-up fighter. I think the stand-up / ground debate is pretty silly. Please don't assume that I am trying to say defending a takedown is easy. Its not, but neither is it undefendable.

I am, however, a beginner. I don't know if that adds strength to my argument or takes it away, because:

For the knee. Yes you do need to see it coming. Even as a beginner, however, it is often easy to see a takedown coming, especially from another beginner. They need a set-up. This is not a theory that I just happen to believe, it has been done to me. I know this from practising full-on sparring. I was sparring another beginner. We were supposed to have "light contact" knees and takedowns. I went in for the takedown, my opponent lifted his knee. I got it in the ribs and went down with a cracked rib. Not my opponents fault, really, he wasn't trying to hit me hard. It just worked really really well. Scotty1's post asked about defenses against an untrained grappler. I probably qualify for that.

For the sprawl: I got to test this one sparring a larger, advanced student. He was trying to take me down, I was trying to stay up. He DID eventually get me down, but it took him a while. The sprawl WORKS. I am a beginner. With more training, it will work BETTER. Of course, your opponent still has you in a clinch, so just sprawling is not enough.

Lastly, the Captain Kirk defense. I like the analogy. When we spar, there is the don-don-don da da music playing. I know you can hear it in your head right now. Then I go for the two-fisted back strike. Then I make fun of Spock.

But no, its not really the captiain kirk. You don't fling your opponent behind you with your foot, you cling to them and roll with them into the mount. I know this works too because I have used it and seen it used in full-on sparring.

There are many more defenses, including some thai and shootboxing ones that we practise. None of them are

"theories that stand-up fighters love to believe. its unlikely to do more than erode your balance and help your opponent. "

They are techniques put into frequent practise in sparring.

[scotty1]

Thanks both of you.

[Merryprankster]

Scotty,

I happen to think you're taking completely the wrong approach to this. An untrained takedown is typically of the head down trying to tackle you variety. It bears as much resemblance to a trained takedown as a hook bears to the drunken barroom roundhouse swipe. In other words, next to none.

If you can defend a trained takedown, an untrained one is child's play by comparison. If you can defend a hook, a roundhouse swipe looks like it's moving slow motion. Why learn to defend against the sloppy, crappy version, when you can learn to defend agains the real deal, which will handle both. Ex High School wrestlers are ubiquitous, and a lot of them are aggressive and many of them behave miserably when slightly drunk.

Mr. Sleazy has some half-right answers.

Kneeing somebody is a good defense, but only in conjunction with controlling the distance via a sprawl or a similar move like the buck-back (sprawl without the body weight on them, you stiff-arm and ride them back.) If you just try and knee them you'd better knock them out, because you just made their job simpler.

Wrapping both hands around the opponent and rolling them over into mount is a low percentage move on even a reasonably competant grappler. I don't recommend it. You are far more likely to wind up pulling him over top of you as he shifts his weight to stay on top. It ranks right up there with the crucifix as a defense--rarely ever seen. I question the skill of anybody caught in either of these moves on a regular basis.


Despite Chingei's relative annoyance, the sprawl is probably your best bet, and the easiest to train. It does take practice, but it's hardly esoteric.

The keys are:

1. Get your legs and hips, down and away.
2. Get your weight on your chest and get your chest on the area in between his shoulder blades or thereabout.
3. Push his head down with one of your hands.

From this position it's easy to stand back up and start abusing the attacker. There are many variations of the sprawl so a "right," version doesn't exist, except that it should follow the principles I outlined. Sprawl even if he gets in. If you can make him fight your hips and thighs, rather than your legs around the knee or lower, it will be that much tougher for him to take you down.

Find an experienced wrestler and train this technique if you do not have it, or something similar. There are many resources on the internet with some examples.

You asked, so here is my personal list of things that would make my life miserable:

1. Heavy hands.
2. Good knees.
3. Good sprawl/throw defenses. By good I mean good against a decent wrestler, not "I've practiced this with my other primarily stand-up striking buddies and it worked on them."

If you have those three things, I'm in trouble. Because, and this is the important thing--YOU can dictate the range of the fight--and that's the key to victory.

[scotty1]

Thanks MP, that's what I was looking for.

Cheers to Mr Sleazy and Chinghei too for responding.

In fact, pints all round!!:D

I have the afternoon off, good luck for Sunday MP.

[chingei]

sprawl! sprawl!

this has become such a mindless mantra that I fear people may be placing themselves in harm's way.

any half-way decent grappler will set up a shot, rather than charge head-first from across the room. if he's put any thought into it, he'll be up on your legs before you know it. if he's made sufficient penetration, the sprawl will just get you to the ground faster. if you're really good he may be forced to switch off to an outside single, in which case you've sprawled yourself face-first to the floor.

Overhooks my friends, overhooks! these are the key to survival. Jam a good strong overhook in there, get a little angle, and now you can think about working the neck, or if you insist on being risky, streching him out enough that his head is in the neighborhood of your knee. Strong hips, a violent overhook (if you can catch an underhook, so much the better!), and a sense of the angles can frustrate a shot and open up some options for you (picks, throws, etc). of course, if he's really good, you're toast anyway.

[Mr.Sleazy]

Chingei, whats with the bitterness over sprawling? Did something happen with sprawling in your past that makes this a painful, sometimes difficult memory?

Was there a sprawling incident that you would just prefer to bury deep into your subconscious mind? The only way to deal with this is to let it out and unburden, free yourself! ;)

BTW whats an overhook?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Mr.Sleazy
Chingei, whats with the bitterness over sprawling? Did something happen with sprawling in your past that makes this a painful, sometimes difficult memory?

Was there a sprawling incident that you would just prefer to bury deep into your subconscious mind? The only way to deal with this is to let it out and unburden, free yourself! ;)

BTW whats an overhook?


I remember my family driving along a highway in the summer while on vacation. I saw an old Indian chief by the side of the road where there had been an accident. He was sprawling. I'll never forget...

(bonus points if anyone can place the reference)

[chingei]

Originally posted by Mr.Sleazy

BTW whats an overhook?

are you really asking, or just funnin' me?

[Mr.Sleazy]

MP:

Half right! Thats awesome! If I get things half-right when I am sparring, I am pretty happy at my humble ol' white belt level.

Chingei:

The reference isn't Johnny Cash "Drunken Ira Hayes" is it? I am sorry to hear about your traumatic sprawling experience.

Sprawling rules! Those who don't like sprawling have big blinders over their eyes! Sprawling defends against everything! When someone tries to kick me, I just sprawl.

Seriously, I don't know what the hell an overhook is. But I am tempted to say that only blinkered, pig-ignorant bas**rds use it. ;)

Again, seriously, what is overhooking? Is it where you snake an arm from the outside, over your opponents arm, then reach up and grab your own arm with your other hand, locking your opponent's arm between yours and your neck? Or something else?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Mr.Sleazy
Seriously, I don't know what the hell an overhook is. But I am tempted to say that only blinkered, pig-ignorant bas**rds use it. ;)

Again, seriously, what is overhooking? Is it where you snake an arm from the outside, over your opponents arm, then reach up and grab your own arm with your other hand, locking your opponent's arm between yours and your neck? Or something else?


"only blinkered, pig-ignorant bas**rds use it."
ok, lucky guess.


simple stuff. an arm (sometimes both, but...) hooked over the top/outside of the opponent's arm. kinda up into or past the armpit. if you really dig it in there, you can get pretty good leverage. if you're tied up its better to have an underhook (use your imagination), but when someone shoots, you should have a brief chance to jam an overhook in. with the right coordination of position and timing, you can sometimes stop/redirect some of the shot before he's had a chance to finish.

[Merryprankster]

Sleazy--Chingei is talking about taking a ****zer grip or a 1/4 nelson grip to work the neck down, but you STILL have to get the hips and legs back, down and away, which is, in essence a sprawl.

And no, a sprawl will NOT just get you to the ground easier. It gets you put down easier if you do it wrong, but then again, if you can't do it at all, you're likely going down anyway.

If the opponent is stepping up to a low outside single, it's pretty simple--your weight is too far forward and not on him enough, driving his head down. That's the trick you see---to get him stretched out with his arms fighting your thigh until his grip is so weakened you can force it apart and stand back up with ease.

Essentially, like anything else, it must be practiced to get good at it. I don't care if he sets up the shot, the sprawl works. If it didn't it wouldn't be the first thing you learn to defend a takedown in wrestling and the most frequently used defense.

You don't just LAY there with the **** thing, you know!!! :)

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Sleazy--Chingei is talking about taking a ****zer grip or a 1/4 nelson grip to work the neck down, but you STILL have to get the hips and legs back, down and away, which is, in essence a sprawl.

And no, a sprawl will NOT just get you to the ground easier. It gets you put down easier if you do it wrong, but then again, if you can't do it at all, you're likely going down anyway.

If the opponent is stepping up to a low outside single, it's pretty simple--your weight is too far forward and not on him enough, driving his head down. That's the trick you see---to get him stretched out with his arms fighting your thigh until his grip is so weakened you can force it apart and stand back up with ease.

Essentially, like anything else, it must be practiced to get good at it. I don't care if he sets up the shot, the sprawl works. If it didn't it wouldn't be the first thing you learn to defend a takedown in wrestling and the most frequently used defense.

You don't just LAY there with the **** thing, you know!!! :)

don't give up the dream...

"I don't care if he sets up the shot, the sprawl works"

continue to practice your faith until a moderately skilled grappler puts you through the wall anyway. good luck

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Sleazy--Chingei is talking about taking a ****zer grip or a 1/4 nelson grip to work the neck down, but you STILL have to get the hips and legs back, down and away, which is, in essence a sprawl.



ah....no.

[Merryprankster]

Well, you could uchi-mata them from a wizzer or pancake or some other stuff as well, but if you're talking about an overhook, it's essentially a wizzer--sorry.

And you still have to get your hips and legs out of the way, either by dropping your weight back and away, taking the angle or a combination of both.

[Merryprankster]

Chingei--

Check my profile. I wrestled competitively for 5 years, and hold a purple in BJJ. I've encountered several "moderately skilled grapplers."

Thanks for playing our game!!!

[Merryprankster]

Oh, and just for the record, the 6th of the 12 basic skills that MUST be mastered by all wrestlers, according to USA Wrestling--one of the largest coaches and amateur wrestling orgs in the country is (hold your breath....) SPRAWLING!

"The sixth Basic Skill of wrestling is the ability to sprawl. In the USA Wrestling Syllabus, Burnett focuses on the ingredients that make up a good sprawl. The strategy that is detailed in producing a sprawl for a “counter-offense” is an important asset for coaches and wrestlers to know. Simple ideas like circling to the bent leg side are important keys for a wrestler to better understand the concept of sprawling. Here, John Smith is countered by an opponent who executes the Basic Skill of sprawling."

Yes, this is the same John Smith who had the world's sweetest low single.

Sorry, but if a major wrestling organization thinks it's one of the most important skills, and EVERY wrestling team in the nation teaches you to sprawl as one of the primary ways of defending the shot, I'll go with that vice your advice. Not to mention my own mat experience.

Did I mention I was a counter wrestler?

Oh hey! Look at this!!! KURT ANGLE, an olympic gold medalist, sprawling on another world class wrestler--he's using the underhooks variation, but it's a sprawl. Gee, that sprawl sure didn't work!


http://www.nwmgc.com/photos/Sprawls.html (http://www.nwmgc.com/photos/Sprawls.html)

Wow! Here's ANOTHER example of a successful sprawl executed at the DI collegiate level--and we know how "mediocre" those guys are!!! Note how flattened out the opponent is---now, THAT'S the way to sprawl!

http://www.themat.com/technique/counters/mvc-031s.jpg

Here's a comment by Chip Cochran--a 4 year D I wrestler--and we all know how "mediocre," they are!!!


A few basic principles of a sprawl...

Obviously, the best way to defend against a shot is to make sure he never gets to your legs in the first place. Do this by maintaining a good stance keeping your elbows in tight to your sides, hands in front of you, and your head up. When he shoots in, you sprawl your leg back - whichever leg his head is closest to - and fire your hand down in between your bodies. This blocks his attack to your legs, and you pry off his chest with your palm.

But inevitably, someone is going to get all the way in to your legs, so what do you do now?

You have two dual priorities: get your leg back and get his head down. The most important leg to get back (i.e. - the most vulnerable) is whichever one he grabs, obviously. What if he's attacking with a double or similar technique? The most important leg to get back is whichever side his head is on. You need to get that leg back away from him as far as you can, and get it down to the mat (if he has lifted it off the mat).

Here's a comment from an article about the DI 141 lbs NCAA championship match between Schwab and Lightner:


Shot, counter shot, sprawl, underhook, spin, out of bounds. That seemed to be the measure for the rest of the match. But no more points were awarded, and Lightner, the hometown hero of the state of Oklahoma, had won the title he felt was his all along, and he did it against Schwab.


Gosh, you're so right! I've been wasting my time! The sprawl, despite its obvious use at all levels of the sport of wrestling, must be a COMPLETE waste of time!!! Thank you for saving me from my folly.
:rolleyes:

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


And you still have to get your hips and legs out of the way, either by dropping your weight back and away, taking the angle or a combination of both.

you're making assumptions. you can take an overhook from the tie, and work it from a number of ranges. you're thinking of a ****zer that would essentially be worked after the almighty sprawl has already stopped the attack. If you want to set a pick, or a lateral, or a fireman's, you had best not drop very far down and away unless you believe its better to recieve than give.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Chingei--

Check my profile. I wrestled competitively for 5 years, and hold a purple in BJJ. I've encountered several "moderately skilled grapplers."


I'm proud of you.


but you should know better than to tell people that they can sprawl their way to safety after someone's made good penetration and is right up on their legs.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Oh, and just for the record, the 6th of the 12 basic skills that MUST be mastered by all wrestlers, according to USA Wrestling--one of the largest coaches and amateur wrestling orgs in the country is (hold your breath....) SPRAWLING!



I'm flattered that you got excited enough to go get all those links. but, of course, you have wasted your time. I have never said that sprawling isn't an essential part of the game. I, like most, made frequent use of it (about 10,000 years ago). What I was trying to point out is that it is not a manna against any and all leg shots as some desperate, imaginative stand-up fighters want to believe. you should print out those photos and put them on your wall. I'm sure they will get you all worked up for those 'private moments'. You can find all manner of photos of world-class wrestlers countering their opponents in various ways. its pretty hard to set up a good shot on an opponent of great skill. alot of more aggresive types will work the averages rather than setting up the sweet shot when faced with a strong defense. street people and stand-up fighters are not hard to set up for a ridiculously clean shot. are you serving them by telling them that when someone has gotten right up on their legs that they will be able to sprawl? not unless they are much much stronger than their opponent.

[Merryprankster]

What you say about that is semi-true, in that the principles of the sprawl still apply, but the execution might be different. If somebody has me in a double and got deep--not so deep that I'm already over, it doesn't hurt to start getting your weight down back and away while creating some space between your hips and his head (ala crossface). The standing switch is also sometimes there, especially if they counter by continuing to drive forward.

As far as making assumptions, no I'm not--you need to protect your balance first, IF the opponent has shot in. As it pertains to the original question on the thread, this is the correct answer--an overhook on an opponent who has shot in on you is essentially a wizzer--if you haven't bothered to get your legs out of the way, then it is unlikely to matter WHAT grip you get. If somebody is driving for your LEGS, be it experienced or no, then the sprawl is a perfectly acceptable addition to the repetoire. We could talk all day about the variations of this, arm-drag reshots, and 1/4 nelson shucks, but, basically speaking, the sprawl is an excellent answer to most leg attacks that involve changing levels. I agree that it's useless for most takedowns that come out of the clinch, but that's another issue entirely, and wasn't part of the question that was asked, at least, as I read it.

If the person has entered the clinch with you, then overhooks might very well be an acceptable answer. I prefer an inside collar and elbow tie or a loose underhook, as I feel I have more options, but that's strictly a matter of personal preference.

To sum up--the sprawl is an excellent answer to leg attacks that involve a level change--like a shot. The clinch and the skills involved there are different.

Look-sorry about the profile check thing--but I think it's pretty clear that I at least have a well informed opinion, even if we may not agree.

I agree--simply sprawling if the guy is already there is not going to save him, but learning how to do it PROPERLY, against people who know how to shoot, can only help him. That's why I suggested that he ensure if he practiced takedown defenses, to do it with somebody who actually KNOWS how to shoot--I agree that it takes a bit of time to develop a twitchy sprawl--there are other things that you have to use in conjuction with "hips down and away," in order to protect your balance once a person is in deep.

It's like learning to slip a punch--it's not manna--just as you pointed out, but if you learn to do it right, it can only help.

As far as being excited--nah, just bored and as usual, generally overzealous in my arguments. I'm stuck at work with nothing better to do, I'm afraid.

Cheers, and apologies!

[chingei]

fair enough!

that's close enough to agreement for me!:D

[Merryprankster]

Whew!! :)

Sorry about that---next time I'll read what you wrote instead of acting like somebody just stole my favorite toy :)

[chingei]

and once again, peace settled over the quiet village and all was well:D

[Mr.Sleazy]

Look what happened while I was away! First, a big battle, then tearful reconciliation. Now, a new era of peace.

MP - you talk about defending clinch takedowns. One thing that happened to me recently sparring (just grappling no strikes). I consistently got my opponent in a Thai clinch which he could not get out of, and when this happened, he would just jump to the guard and pull me down on top of him.

This seemed a little funky to me, though I guess in the context of pure grappling it put him in a better position than he was in before the guard.

MP and Chingei- Anyways, question of how to defend the Thai clinch takedown? And are clinch takedowns easier or more difficult to defend than low (single/double leg) takedowns?

Don't fight!

[Merryprankster]

The Thai Clinch is awful for takedowns. Anybody trying to actually take you down that way is either inexperienced or stupid or both.

It's great for delivering knees to the head and midsection--not so hot for taking people down.

The guy you were fighting would have done well to lower his level while keeping his back straight and his guard up, stepped in to get his hips underneath him, and arched his neck back and up, trying to make his posture ramrod straight, while attacking your elbows (pushing/pulling them round) to get inside control, while trying to glue his hips to your side. I can explain in greater detail, but I'm rushed right now.

Clinch takedowns aren't easier or harder to defend against. Just different.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Mr.Sleazy
. One thing that happened to me recently sparring (just grappling no strikes). I consistently got my opponent in a Thai clinch which he could not get out of, and when this happened, he would just jump to the guard and pull me down on top of him.



if that's his prefered takedown, you shouldn't worry about this guy too much.

keep your lead leg to the outside of his. if he starts to 'pull' you, his weight will shift to his heels and you can footsweep him. if he tries to stick his hips to you first, watch for when he starts to come in and take an inside reach (lead leg to the outside, one hand controling neck/back, one hand shoots right up the 'ol crotch, drive his weight over the leg inside your lead leg and you should be able to take away his balance <if done well, you can create a balance point right over your own lead leg>. pull at the shoulder, lift at the crotch and its sayonara time.