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prana
05-16-2002, 05:37 PM
This might stir up some arguments but please keep it at peace. And no one is allowed to practise what I say, cause my words should be no more than words, not a guidance, not even a hint.....

Anyways, I have been thinking how to explain this visualisation versus simply letting the mind find the paths.

So here is my little analogy

Allowing the mind to find its own path, it like descensing from the thick cloud of doubt, and realising there are a whole bunch of roads beneath this mess.

Visualisation is akin to using our teachers knowledge and your own faith, to map out the roads even before descending through this cloud of doubt, to map out the roads.

I practised both, and in my ignorant opinion, I now solely practise the latter because its faster for me. However, I would never say one is better than the other.

OK ... peace :)

mono68
05-16-2002, 10:56 PM
Prana: My two cents of the subject is visualisation can be applied for health and healing pruposes. In the medical field some MD's are incorperating the concept of "Mind over matter" approximately 10yrs age I met this Physical therapist who fractured his ankle while skiing. it usually takes 6weeks for bones to heal on average. He took a class on this concept of visualizing the bone and the healing of it. It took him 3 weeks instead of 6weeks also his rehab for normal gait was also cut in half. He was a believer and he amazed me. I believe in this.

dezhen2001
05-17-2002, 01:57 AM
prana: interesting explanation. When doing my soft qigong, the main thing i seem to do is just try to stay relaxed and let the movements flow. Not concentrate on any specific thing. Hard qigong uses 3 methods of breathing to do certain things with the Qi (i think i told you before?). But when i'm doing meditation afterwards, i guess i use a bit of both...

I first have to relax my whole body, usually i remember what my Sifu says to us in class, and work through that. Then i relax and breathe, and slowly bring my attention to the dantien. But after a whie, it seems like i even forget that :)

Mono68: interesting information, thanks :)

david

Wongsifu
05-19-2002, 05:25 PM
hey prana just browsing through like i do 1nce a month...
how about rising above the mind and the roads and let everything happen accordign to the will..... ;)
no need to visualise or to be tangled in the web of messes

harry_the_monk
05-22-2002, 01:17 AM
Prana,

my thoughts...

I think that letting the mind find its own path is great if you have a very disciplined mind. One which doesn't dart all over the place after sitting for a few minutes.

For those of us who tend to have more active minds I think that visualisaton can help. Hopefully when you say you only practise the latter you also take some time to practise sinay meditation as well. I spend half my time on both practise(visualisation + shinay). When I am doing a puja, obviously it is different:D

I like the anology of the clouds and seeing the roads open in front (makes me do some visualisations already:) )

All religions have visualisation as part of their practise, I also tend to use mantras, another thing also shared by other religions. We all will have our own way of getting to the top of the mountain, I wish everyone luck on their path.

OM MANI PEME HUNG

dezhen2001
05-22-2002, 05:01 AM
What do you guys do when u have lots of different thoughts? and how does that affect your visualisation?

I know that we're often told to let the thoughts come and pass, and sometimes even to use one thought to 'rid yourself of 1000 other thoughts'. Is that a type of 'visualisation' or letting the mind calm and find it's own way?

interesting topic. i get to see more about buddhist qigong than i have before :)

david

prana
05-22-2002, 06:02 PM
dez


What do you guys do when u have lots of different thoughts? and how does that affect your visualisation?

There are a few methods, but I only use a few

1. To use one thought to curb other thoughts, usually a thought of purity
2. To give no food for the thought, hence starve the thought
3. To watch the though like a doctor watches a patient in pain
4. To rest the mind in the unattachable, the breath, simply bringing the mind back to breathe when we realise it has wandered.

(THERE IS MORE but this is all I know)


I know that we're often told to let the thoughts come and pass, and sometimes even to use one thought to 'rid yourself of 1000 other thoughts'. .Is that a type of 'visualisation' or letting the mind calm and find it's own way?
My interpretation is not strong, so I wont say its one or the other.

The mind is in nature pure. When ones mind is not scattered, and ones thought is not reactive (non-dual), the mind naturally returns to its original state, empty. At this point, the mind is already finding its own path, the breath is very slow and calm; and the energy has already entered into the "spiritual" path... (I cant say much more than that)

dezhen2001
05-23-2002, 03:31 AM
Hi Prana, interesting :)

I guess that i've used methods 1, 3 and 4 from your 'list'. Sometimes i count the breath until i can just relax, or if my mind wanders. I find that to work for me very well personally. Sometimes also, i just let my thoughts come and pass, until my mind eventually becomes calm. I guess that's letting the mind find it's own way. Sometimes it takes a while though! :p

I'd be interested in hearing what you mean by 'purity'? If it's easy enough to explain online of course.

Also, is there a method of letting the Qi also 'find it's own way'? Without guiding it or anything? If you know what i mean...?

Anyway, all the best there,
take care,

david

Nexus
05-23-2002, 10:27 AM
The chi will find its own path if the pathways in the body are clean and clear. Guiding the chi is often a method of helping unblock channels that have stagnation and blockages. Just as by living healthy and purifying yourself spiritually you to begin to be guided by life.

prana
05-23-2002, 05:57 PM
Hi Dezhen :)




I guess that i've used methods 1, 3 and 4 from your 'list'. Sometimes i count the breath until i can just relax, or if my mind wanders. I find that to work for me very well personally. Sometimes also, i just let my thoughts come and pass, until my mind eventually becomes calm. I guess that's letting the mind find it's own way. Sometimes it takes a while though! :p

I'd be interested in hearing what you mean by 'purity'? If it's easy enough to explain online of course.
Sure, I'll try but my explanations are retarded...

Purity is like Son of god JC is to Christians, or Mother Mary is to Catholics, or Buddha Amitabha is to pureland Buddhists. They are the symbolic embodiment of what is utterly and stainlessly pure. It is their symbol of complete purity of body, speech and mind....




Also, is there a method of letting the Qi also 'find it's own way'? Without guiding it or anything? If you know what i mean...?


I think Nexus is sharing a very practical explanation.

For me, I think of it differently. As long as the mind is not scattered and is competely empty in thought, and the breathe has almost completely ceased, you know that point where you dont even know if you are breathing anymore (TjD, you said you experienced this already) the energy is already centralised. In effect it is already in the spiritual path, prajna.

Actually this happens in sleep, everynight. But the trick is to be able to remain aware of it, and yet, be able to fall asleep naturally ;)

dezhen2001
05-24-2002, 02:37 AM
Thanks for the explanations Nexus and Prana :)

So you meditate on the 'symbol' of Buddha or some other Bodhisvatta (Kuan Yin for example) for 'purity'? You're right, it is hard to explain hehe.

As long as the mind is not scattered and is competely empty in thought, and the breathe has almost completely ceased, you know that point where you dont even know if you are breathing anymore (TjD, you said you experienced this already) the energy is already centralised.

Sometimes when i have done meditation after my Qigong practise something similar to this has happened. It's taken a long time for my thoughts to come and pass, then it's hard to explain. Kinda like not being aware of my breath and even time, just letting everything happen their own way. My mind feels clear and totally relaxed as well. I feel 'connected' with my whole body and breathing together. I can't really explain :p

Interesting discussion :)

david

harry_the_monk
05-25-2002, 11:34 PM
Prana,

Do you find that you can be aware of these states more during sleep now?
I find that during my meditation I can feel these states coming on, but lack the control to settle in the state. I tend to either wake myself fully or find myself in a full on dream:)

dez,
I think I may know what you are explaining, it is a kind of feeling I get when I meditate straight after doing my yoga practise. I find this different to my sitting meditation though, which I am not sure of what the implications may be.

dezhen2001
05-26-2002, 06:31 AM
Harry: thx for your response :) I'm not a Buddhist or anything, so I generally only practise my meditation after Qigong practise. I also do some Zhan Zhuang and horse stance training. So maybe that's the reason (?)

david

TjD
05-26-2002, 09:21 AM
the buddha said that mindfulness was the refuge of the mind :)

when my mind is all off and jumping about; or more often there is a thought i need to actively get out of my head, mindfulness often does the trick

giving your utmost attention to every sound you hear, and everything you see and feel often gives the mind no extra energy for those thoughts, which dissapear after awhile - given no energy/attention they go away

the best part about this is that it can be done 24/7, and wherever you happen to be at the moment

it seems lately im running around in this state about 70% of the time ;) its done a lovely job of keeping my mind clear, peaceful and in order

it seems to be the best way for me


i read some great article by the dalai lama about how the mind works, and it came down to the fact that the mind is a creature of habit, if you usually have an agitated mind now, chances are without some effort your mind will be more aggitated in the future. your mind does what it is used to doing - by replacing an aggitated mind with a calm mind often, you can promote those states, and with enough practice make them natural in the future


peace
travis

TjD
05-26-2002, 09:26 AM
i have the same 'problem' with sleeping ;) by the end of the day im feeling quite mindful, and my mind is rather calm - however i end up sleeping and most of my days work has gone to waste by my dreams!

i wake up in the morning and my mind is going like a broken record and i have to start clearing it all over again
:)

im hoping with enough practice that my daily work will being to spill over into my dreams - and stop interupting my mindfulness

i'm not very good at lucid dreaming - however im hoping if i keep it on my mind enough, it will be natural to stay mindful in my dreams

peace
travis

Two Worlds
05-28-2002, 09:09 PM
:cool:

In short, I'm a qigong master, I use my art 97% of the time for healing (I work at an alternative wellness clinic in suburban Chicago, IL). My experiences are that visualizing what and where I want the engergy to do and where I want it done is most of what and how I perform my healings: however, there are a number of times that I direct the qi to the specific area, then let the qi "do" its work without being as specific.
Now, I do, on occassion teach an advanced martial arts class mainly to law enforcement personnel. When I teach them qigong, it varies from visualization to "enhanced will", i.e., from pushing a person back, that is larger than yourself, with one finger, to taking the opponents qi from them causing them to either feel weaker or collapsing.
So, by my experience, you're on at least one of the correct tracks. Keep on going, you'll get there!

prana
05-28-2002, 09:43 PM
Interesting...

I have been giving thought to working 4 days a week full time, and spending 1 day a week doing FREE healing. I caution the FREE because if they wish to, they can donate else I did not want to charge or expect anything in return.

I know a gentlemen (a fellow Kagyupa) who runs a chinese medicine place and he might b able to help me in this area. What I am most concerned with of course, is putting food on the table.

I have discussed this with some of my friends on this board, but seeing you are a healer, what do you do to make sure there is food on the table ? Do people respond well to your healing and do you get many "challenges" from skeptics etc.

The reason I came up with 4 days a week, and not full-time is two-fold, fear of the unknown, no food to eat etc. and my own abilities to heal.

If you have some thoughts, it would be most welcomed....

Scott R. Brown
05-29-2002, 10:08 AM
Prana,

I applaud your desire to perform healing for free. One of my strongest beliefs is that healing and spiritual guidance is every man’s birthright and should be provided free of charge. Healing should be an avocation and not a vocation. I agree with having a bowl for donations. Each may donate according to their inner guidance. It also provides a means for the recipient to express their gratitude according to their means and in a manner that will allow you to continue healing for those with no means of payment. I used to teach for massages or loaves of bread. If my students could not pay I told them that they were paying because of their own need to provide a form of exchange not because I required anything from them other than their sincere desire to learn. I encourage you to follow your inner guidance and allow the universe to provide you with opportunities to devote greater time to healing in the future.

I would also caution that anyone can get on a board and confess to all that they are a master of anything they choose. I doubt the maturity and ability of anyone who feels that they must announce that they are a master in the very first sentence of their post much less boast they are a master in the first place.

Two Worlds
05-29-2002, 08:03 PM
In response to your healing for free,... if that's what you want to do, well, it's okay: however, you'll find that you'll eventually get tired of this "give away" thing (been there, done that, got the t-shirt to prove it), because once the fun in the doing is gone, and those you've been giving so freely too don't put any value to it, i.e., they don't own it, you'll eventually slow or stop for awhile. Also, by giving it away, you're cheapening all of what it is, again, no ownership, no value. We all pay to learn many things in our lives, why not this?

prana
05-29-2002, 08:50 PM
2 worlds

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you mean by getting sick of it, and wether or not you have the t-shirt to prove it makes no difference to me, that time you spent giving, I think its great and extremely noble; and the experience you gained to realise it's not the best for you, I fully respect. No doubt I will one day b on this path and see the same roadblock you're seeing.

I give you a perspective, my guru (Lama) taught me meditation for absolutely nothing. Free Of Charge, out of his own good free will of giving, like all the best things in this world, and took me on like his family, and helped me recover from mental instability. He has been doing the same all his life. Free ... I also know, all he wants in return is for me to uphold the teachings he has bestowed on me, and practise it as best as I can. Quite a selfless man, with a ginormous heart, you have to admit...

Just some thoughts.... :)

woliveri
05-29-2002, 10:06 PM
I've met and learned from two individuals the same way, free. One was Qi Gong and the other was Kung Fu. I believe in the same philosophy to a certain extent. Especially with Qi Gong. It's difficult enough to make a living teaching kung fu I don't know how anyone could do it teaching Qi Gong. Now I can see a person paying for a "set" or qi gong exercise but not a monthly fee. Also, for me, monthly fees broaden the division between the giver and the receiver.

Regarding healing. I've never met anyone (yet) with true healing capabilities using qi gong. I've been in the presence of Qi Gong Masters but none used there qi to heal. There is one exception to this but this individual is a Doctor of TCM and uses Qi more as a diagnosis tool than healing as far as I can see.


Having said that has anyone met or learned from this woman?

http://www.qinway.org/enter_ie.html

The theory makes sense I just don't know of anyone who's gone through the program.

Nexus
05-29-2002, 10:38 PM
Prana,

Even if your teacher taught you for free and taught every person he has every taught for free it doesn't necessarily dignify him as selfless. Taoism would say that selflessness and selfishness are two sides to the same coin. On one hand, you may perceive his act as selflessness, on the other hand he may not be comfortable or feel good about charging people for the services he gives you for free. Meaning, the way he perceives his personal path and Way involves him teaching you meditation and guiding you without obligating you to a financial reimbursement.
That is his choice as it is part of his Way, meaning it is entirely selfish as he is teaching it that way as his own personal decission of it being best for him to do so.

You yourself were the one who said 'perspective' however, so you may have been just as aware of that or perhaps have more clarity on it than I.

In response to the healing for free, I completely encourage that. You can be especially successful if part of your free-healing involves teaching those whom are interested in learning the healing arts in the process. That in turn heals people for free and you are able to teach and spread the arts to those whom are also interested in healing others. You could charge the students whom are learning the healing and you would still be healing the patients for free. Pretty nice deal there and you might even feel that it aligns with your personal path, just a thought.

I personally feel that the motivation and the "why" you are doing it is the key to your growth and your ability to truly share the healing with others. Have fun with it!

- Nexus

Scott R. Brown
05-30-2002, 03:53 AM
Two Worlds said,

In response to your healing for free,... if that's what you want to do, well, it's okay: however, you'll find that you'll eventually get tired of this "give away" thing (been there, done that, got the t-shirt to prove it), because once the fun in the doing is gone, and those you've been giving so freely too don't put any value to it, i.e., they don't own it, you'll eventually slow or stop for awhile. Also, by giving it away, you're cheapening all of what it is, again, no ownership, no value. We all pay to learn many things in our lives, why not this?

The danger here is the attachment one has to receiving proper appreciation for the gift they are giving. The proper attitude is to give freely and without expectation of receiving anything in return, otherwise it is not a gift, but merely an economic exchange. “A gift is not a gift if one is expected in return” If your attitude is one of how magnanimous you are being for bestowing your healing powers on the recipient then your gift is born of ego-centeredness and not truly a gift. If you have become tired of this “give-away” then your attitude was not right to begin with. I thought you were a Master? A Master has no attachment to the results of his actions and therefore does not tire or resent not receiving proper appreciation or accolades for his actions.

Giving something for free never cheapens the gift. Since a Master is not concerned with receiving anything in return for his gift, he is unconcerned with whether the recipient accepts the gift with proper gratitude and respect or not. With an improper attitude the healer is unable to heal effectively and the recipient will not improve and has no reason to bestow gratitude upon the healer. I recommend you work on developing a proper attitude towards giving and stop worrying about receiving gratitude or rewards. I thought you were a Master?

Giving for the fun of it is the wrong attitude as well. Giving is a calling, an avocation, not something to dabble with until it is not fun anymore. I thought you said you were a Master?

Prana,

Your Guru has set the proper example for you to follow and he is the one you should seek to emulate. I would discuss with him your intention to share your healing abilities and knowledge with others and allow him to continue guiding you.

Woliveri,

Years ago I watched a program on public television featuring an acupuncturist who used Chi Kung in his practice. He was highly effective according to the report.

harry_the_monk
05-31-2002, 12:33 AM
Prana,

I am so pleased that you have the strength to go through with this course of action. It is something I know I will want to do in the future, unfortunately I am still learning how to heal people and that costs money, so I need to make sure I have it to get me through till I have the knowledge.

Good luck, and I am sure it will work out well. Hopefully you will find that through the donations you recieve you will be able to satisfy the needs for food etc., with regard to sceptics, you will always have them. Even in my role as a personal trainer I get people disbelieving that I know what I am talking about.(even when I show them printed scientific facts.) let the doubters doubt and just do what you feel is right.

prana
05-31-2002, 02:46 AM
hold your horses guys, I am giving thought and trying to figure out a way to carry this out, but I havent done it yet so I can't take credit.

Maybe we can both achieve this goal sometime soon Harry ;)

Two Worlds
05-31-2002, 08:49 AM
Okay, I left myself too open in my last statement. I have a student that I'm teaching for free... the reason being is that he has sincerely come to learn qigong and for the right reasons. Do I still give FREE healings? Yes! What I was talking about before is that there are those who want you to do the healings/demonstrations for the fun of it (in short) and because of their view of such a wonderful and beautiful gift, it was if I were giving a 24k gold crown, but they were perceiving it to be shiny brass or plastic. In other words, a magic trick. Also, for those who are takers, those who have that "gimme" (greedy) attitude... well this is what I'm talking about in reference to placing some value to it. As another stated, this really isn't something one can solely earn a living doing.
There are those that know and understand the value of qi, and those who don't.....
I'm sorry I didn't expalain this better, but if this isn't understood now, I'm sorry, but I won't explain it further.

Scott R. Brown
05-31-2002, 08:56 AM
Two Worlds,

Thanks for the clarification....

Thank you for taking the ribbing so well. I actually baited you on purpose to test your reaction. I was pleased to see your good natured response. I won't be so hard on you again.

Your more detailed explanation makes much more sense now and I understand your postion.

Two Worlds
05-31-2002, 10:14 PM
:rolleyes:
Uh huh! ok, cool!

Don't make it a habit, ok!?!

:)

greendragon
06-05-2002, 08:05 PM
...back to the original subject, fix your attention on your breathing , " let the light fall gently on your ears"