What makes a Kwoon a "McKwoon"?

[Tsuei]

There has been alot of discussion all over this forum about the real thing vs. phoneys. No doubt there are both, but how can you know? Some people seem to think that it is always obvious right off... I'm here to tell you that my experience reiterates the old saying "can't judge a book by it's cover"

When I first started training CMA I had only one choice that fit my locale and schedule. A Chinese man, who majored in (or at least studied- I never asked that closely) wushu and internal arts while in college in the PRC, was teaching Yang style at a local gym (he also taught Chen and Baqua- Yang classes met my schedule at the time). Price was good, talked to him on the phone and then went to an intro class. First glance seemed great... Classes were fun and dress informal- no silly uniforms here. With all respect to my Sifu (who I will not name), I learned NOTHING apart from the mechanics of the form. After I had all the postures the ONLY instruction I recieved was.. "Next time... go lower...". It was a joke, I felt totally cheated. (also at this time I tried a few other schools to see what was up.. nothing felt right)

Not too long after I quit that school another moved into my area. The Sifu's literature said he had been studying CMA for over 30 years, his senior student/instructor had been with him nearly 20 years.. all instructors having been with him at least 10. Literature stated that he was the Lineage Holder of the Northern Shaolin Lamm Loong Pac (Blue Dragon Art) as well as creator of a new style that he had developed after working with the disabled. Curriculum to include Shaolin, and Tibetan arts, Tai Chi, Qigong etc. Sounded great...

I went to an open house and was very perplexed. First of all the school was in a strip mall, but at least it wasn't full of cheezy psuedo-chinese art.. just Sifu's calligraphy which was VERY beautiful. There was a uniform (tshirt w/logo and traditional style bottoms) and sashes... a small warning light went off. I talked to one of the instructors for sometime and was offered a demonstration from a green sash student.. some Shaolin stuff it was. Looked good. But I wondered about this guy that kept running around talking loud- kinda like a radio announcer cracking jokes. Turned out to be the Sifu. Hmmm... Well, I decided I would try it anyway... it was the only game in town at the time and at least I would have some fun workouts.

I was startled to find that classical music was played during workouts and that Chinese names were rarely given to the postures and forms we worked on. I tried to avoid the classes where the Sifu taught since his manner and constant talking anoyed me.. I would go when I though one of the other instructors was teaching if I could. I was learning Pa Tuan Chinn (sp?), some other qigong, as well as Shaolin drills, a form and some two -person stuff.... it was fun but they kept saying some things that just sounded crazy...

Example- rarely did we hear the word Dantien... They used a sequence of 9 numbers (I will only refer to one) to bring certain concepts to mind.... 4-Core is the one for Dantien. We were told to imagine a heavy, iron fire hydrant with hoses running to our extremities. I thought "You have GOT to be kidding" I almost let it go then... thank GOD I didn't!

About a month after I started I went to a class and the Sifu was there, I thougt "Man, I don't know if I can handle this guy today". He started teaching us a qigong routine told us to engage the fire hydrant image and BANG it all clicked.. I found and felt my Dantien for the 1st time. I also understood the Sifu for the first time, he wasn't an idiot at all! He was brilliant and his attitude just exuberance for art and teaching. He taught us a routine of 12 postures in about 30 minutes in GREAT detail... He demonstrated some of the postures in a fast form and I could feel the room tremble, his fa jing was INCREDIBLE I thought "holy cr*p!" this guy IS for real.

I later learned WHY the American jargon... Seems the Sifu was recruited to teach Tai Chi to some folks with traumatic brain injury in the late eighties. Being a lineage holder, you can imagine how much of a traditionalist he was.. well to use his words "These people didn't care that so and so invented this form in the early Qing dynasty, they just wanted to be able to stand up without falling down." His trad approach failed miserably in that situation and he knew it. He considered everything he knew, gathered the commonalities of it all and condensed it into an approach that any modern American could understand. "Face it.." he says "we ain't Chinese." Not to say that trad approaches don't won't, on the contrary if they didn't it never would have lasted- they just don't work for everyone in modern America.

I have been there nearly 2 years and it's been amazing. The training we recieve, while odd on the surface is actually very much in the Shaolin and Wudang tradition focusing on a sense of creative play and developing a total, combined mind-body experience. I have been able to learn more in minutes than I ever did in days of previous training. I have since seen Sifu demonstrate many of the traditional forms he knows and have had the fortune of a great deal of one-on-one instruction- the guy never ceases to amaze me. I have tremendous respect for him, he is a great friend and wonderful teacher and everyone who really knows him loves the guy.

I rambled at GREAT length and appoligize for that, but wasn't sure how else to approach this. Also let me say this was not meant to be a "RAH-RAH for my Sifu!" post, what I wrote was simply to illustrate my point- There are many great teachers out there and they deserve our respect. Many people (like I almost did) would have turned away from this Kwoon because of surface appearances and lost out, the same people would have also thought (as I did) that the Chinese guy was the Real Deal and ended up very disappointed. So the questions are;

1) How do you know what is real?
2) How long will it take to know?

Oh yea, and as for the sashes- a major sticky point to some people- 2 simple reasons and something deeper; 1) Lets student have a tangible goal 2) helps instructors divide us into groups "Whites/Golds with so and so.... Greens/blues you're with me... " And believe me, it also makes you think.. when I got my Gold I thought "I'm hot", got my Green thought "This is great I am learing alot, but have alot to learn" When I got my Blue I was very excited and proud since very few people stick it out that long, but I realized I had barely scratched the surface and the real work was just begining...

[yu shan]

Why do people need this sence of accomplishment thru a belt (sash) ranking system? Ego

[wushu chik]

www.samuraikarate.com

THIS IS A McKWOON! Just read, and you will understand why!!!

~Wen~

[Hai_To]

Well, I was a victim of a McKwoon. When I first joined, it seemed great (on the surface). It was a tough workout and I seemed to be learning a lot. Unfortunately, I wasn't learning anything that I could use. Before I left I had "learned" 26 complete and 10 partial forms (empty handed and weapons). That is a lot. Too bad I couldn't use any of it. All we did was work on forms and we never did them with any speed or power. We never sparred. Plus, the cost was outrageous. You were charged for your uniforms, boots, tests, new forms, weapons, etc. All in cash, naturally. Truth be told, I was paying enough each month to afford the lease on a luxury car. There was chinese art all over the place. Chinese music was playing. It looked how a Gwoon was supposed to look. My former Sifu used the school as his sole means of support. That is a danger sign.

My new school is different. On the surface, it doesn't look like much. My Sifu has another job. He teaches because he wants to pass on his knowledge. He rents the space, so there is nothing on the walls except some pictures of our ancestors. I won't learn an actual form for quite a while yet. You go very slowly to make sure you get the basics down. Plus, the senior students there would go through my old school like a hot knife through butter.

The only thing you can do is look around and try to make an informed decision.

[dezhen2001]

having a Sifu that does MA for his living isn't neccesarily a danger sign. It depends on how and what he teaches. My school teaches a few different skills a number of times a week, so although classes are small, there are enough students for him to make a living. Also the price is not cheap, and not too expensive either. The training is very hard and if you don't put the time in you won't get the benefit or progress. I train like a madman and am still on the same form for amost 2 years now, that's hardly a McKwoon :D

Again, it depends on what you want, and what's available. If the school has everything you want and need there, then go for it. But as long as there are some with traditional skill, the skill will be passed on and not lost.

just some thoughts :)

david

[Shadow Dragon]

Rant On.

Rather than labeling a Kwoon a McKwoon, you should rather ask yourself if the Kwoon and style and type of teaching that suits you.

Example my Kwoon:
Known for Health benefits and that is what most People train for.
Sifu teaches full-time and appears to be making a living from it.
Kwoon is rented, no Uniforms, etc
On the surface not much to the style except some Forms, Qi-Gong and some Push-Hands.

Most things like applications, etc are only taught when a Student asks the Sifu or when Sifu sees that the Student is interested or makes an effort.

High dropout rate at an early level that slows as we progress, most sparring and similar stuff is only done at intermediate and higher levels.

Seminars are open to interested parties and Sifu will come to see and help Students that train on their own outside the Kwoon.
Sifu will also allow people to attend extra "free" classes before a level check to make sure that we are ready for it.

Said that, I am lucky that we got access to other Instructors from our style and I must say that I can see a difference between the Students and know under which Sifu they studied and what parts of the training are more pushed by each Sifu.

Personally, I think People are way to quick these days to label something a McKwoon or question lineages, knowledge, etc.
Some reason for this I think are misconceptions about style, MA, what a Sifu is supposed to be like, how muhc training should be, how muhc a Kwoon should advertise (Net, Yellow Pages, ...), and so on.

Also each Sifu teaches differently some will give clear precise explanations, while others might want you to figure things out for yourself and than ask the Sifu for confirmation.
Some might only teach certain things to a certain type of Student.

So there are many styles of Sifu and Kwoon out there, which, imho, is good as it allows me the student to find a Kwoon/Sifu that suits me and allows me to advance in an environment that suits me.

Again I like mine, hardly advertised, informal, good instruction, very little study aids available, and Sifu wants us to make an effort in learning and not spoon feed us, few make it ti the higher levels and even fewer get a crack at even becoming a sifu themselves.

Rant off.

[Tsuei]

My Sifu teaches full time, but his wife (also an instructor at the school) Is a physical therapist. With her work and what they make from the school the do ok. The dues are in line with other local schools except a big TKD chain that is VERY cheap (get what ya pay for I guess).

We do a tremendous amount of foundational stuff... horse stance, square walking, stance drills etc. In nearly two years I have completed one Tai Chi form am working on another Tai Chi and a Shaolin form. Teachers make sure you OWN it before giving you the next part of the puzzle. We do alot of Qigong etc. After a couple years Sifu invites students who have proven themselves to come to a different series of classes where things get more intense. More form work, Qin Na etc. The teachers have private study groups, each person gets to pick one (with that teachers permission) to study a particular art in depth.. such as Tiger, Monkey, Bagua, Wudang arts etc.... Funny some of what I said there sounded a bit like Shaolin -Do. Hmm... Well I have seen there web sites and that ain't this!

[GeneChing]

Do those who complain about mckwoon's ever eat at mcdonald's?:D

[Hai_To]

God, I hope not. That stuff will kill you. ;)

[Tsuei]

I like Shadow Dragons post and attitude. Really hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned. Your Kwoon actually sounds alot like mine in several ways. Where is that school located and does it have a web site? Ours is: NewForestWay.COM Located in Beautiful (chuckles) Birmingham, Alabama...

Gene- I have occasionaly eaten at McDonalds... guilty as charged. I wonder if you are aquainted with my Sifu, John Bright-Fey? (Formerly known as John Fey) He used to teach at the Taoist institute...

[GeneChing]

It's a best seller by Eric Schlosser and it'll give you a better idea of what mcdonalds really means. When I used to compete, my team used to eat at mcdonalds before tournaments, just to make us angry. I think Jay and Silent Bob Strikes Back nailed the whole fast food thing...

T: I'm afriad I don't know your Sifu, but then, there's a lot of people I don't know and don't remember. Sorry. It's an old age thing...

[dezhen2001]

MacDonalds does the best ice crem :D

SD: liked your post. It seems hard to get the balance between health and MA skill right if you ask me...

david

[GeneChing]

...go to a mckwoon, eh?

[yu shan]

I am perplexed about a tuition question! I teach a quality Mantis style, which hits the full spectrum. Do I charge top dollar or keep affordable for everyone? My overhead is high, due to trips domestic and overseas. Also, only so many spaces available. Thank you and have a good holiday!

[yearofdragon76]

There are phonies and fakes every where you go! But we must remember why we train in the first place....and if where we train makes us feel good and accomplishes our goal than it can't be wrong!We must also remember there were skeptics and critics out there when style like wing chun..and choy lay fut first appeared and artform isnt created and accepted in a day!If a teacher is not real than it may take up precious time but soon the students will find out for they will not get what they seek.Sometimes you dont get what you seek evenfrom a highly qualified instructor...It's all up to the individual!
:)

[Lokhopkuen]

Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 215

>I am perplexed about a tuition question! I teach a quality Mantis style, which hits the full spectrum. Do I charge top dollar or keep affordable for everyone? My overhead is high, due to trips domestic and overseas. Also, only so many spaces available. Thank you and have a good holiday!


:confused:
This is an issue I have wrestled with many a time. The answer::rolleyes: Think about what the total of your monthly over head comes to, divide that by how much you think your instruction is worth then add 10 percent. Charge a fair price that is in harmony with the 'local going rate' for martial art instruction and do not sell yourself too cheap or people will not respect your teachings. :cool: Every time I have taught for free I have never had a student who lasts. Do not let people waste your time, make yourself accessible to your dedicated students and charge all that the traffic will bear.:D
Best wishes

Lokhopkuen

[Lokhopkuen]

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