Never lead with bong sao?

[IronFist]

I heard this on a website. Is this good advice? He said like never make bong sao your first block. Like block the first punch with pak sao and then the second one with bong sao or something. But I saw this other guy's video blocking the first strike with a bong sao.

What have you guys been told?

IronFist

[OdderMensch]

is an "involantary motion" so you dont want to "lead" with a bong. however you dont want to block with anything. the goal is to strike. So if my hand shoot out with intent to hit, or if i raise my hand in defense, and the other guy cuts over mine, I change to bong sau. if I meet his hand in the center, I can pak, or oi moon coi, or jum maybe.

so ive been taught that i might rather begin with a pak, that i may have to begin with bong sau, but I should just punch the other guy in the face.

strive for simplicity :D

[planetwc]

Originally posted by IronFist
I heard this on a website. Is this good advice? He said like never make bong sao your first block. Like block the first punch with pak sao and then the second one with bong sao or something. But I saw this other guy's video blocking the first strike with a bong sao.

What have you guys been told?

IronFist

Bong Sao is a deflection. If you are facing hands outside of Wing Chun you should probably not have to use it, unless the guy is very good. Why? Because you are going to be driving down the center eating him up with centerline attacks.

It is also very short lived. You transition immediately to something else after "deploying" it. Don't stand there like you are waiting for someone to take a picture.

A Bong Sao is not a block it is a deflection/neutralization of incoming linear energy. You use it when you need to.

[anerlich]

Oddermensch is correct.

You can't usually hit while you're deflecting with a bon, you have to turn it it to something else before you can hit the guy. Other techs would allow you to retaliate simultaneously.

That said, anyone who goes into the frenzied chaos of fighting with so detailed an agenda is IMHO unlikely to prevail. Better to consider simple strategies like "go to the blind side", "control the centre", and "strike open targets" and rely on your training and preconscious processing to take care of the details.

But if someone tries to hit you off the bat and you block it with a bon when the alternative is getting smacked in the face, that's fine by me. Just make sure the Wing Chun police aren't watching :D

[S.Teebas]

You can't usually hit while you're deflecting with a bon, you have to turn it it to something else before you can hit the guy.

Why not just hit him as part of the bong? (after you redirect him and uproot him..he is unballanced, and you can use your structure to come in and strike off the one movement) I see bong sau as a very offensive movement at times.

[anerlich]

"after you redirect him and uproot him..he is unballanced, and you can use your structure to come in and strike off the one movement"

Sorry bud, but I count that as two moves ... the word "after" sort of gives it away ...

[Alpha Dog]

it's impossible to lead with a bong sao

[S.Teebas]

Sorry bud, but I count that as two moves ... the word "after" sort of gives it away ...

But it's one movement. Ok, im sure this may come down to a way we do things. But the way ive been shown, well its like you draw a circle from you to your attacker. One part of the circumfrence on your shoulder,and the other is touching the opponent.

If you follow the line its one movement..an arc, twist the circle and you have a bong (ie this way you've re-directed and attacked).

I was stateing in what order things happen, not how many movements i was talking about doing.

Hey, Anerlic...Dont concentrate on the 'after'..or you will miss all the heavenly glory!! :D :D

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
it's impossible to lead with a bong sao

Whoa, I must suck then, because I can do it :D

Watch I'll show you: Here comes a punch... I bong sao'ed it!

IronFist

[OdderMensch]

that was all wrong, you've got to do it like this.

watch, punch comes in , i bong sau.

see, thats why you needa sifu. :D

[reneritchie]

Like much in WCK, Bong Sao is both offensive and defensive. If you have timing and structure, you can toss someone across the room with one, break someone straight down with one, and even end an altercation completely with one Bong Sao.

Rgds,

RR

[IronFist]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Like much in WCK, Bong Sao is both offensive and defensive. If you have timing and structure, you can toss someone across the room with one, break someone straight down with one, and even end an altercation completely with one Bong Sao.

Rgds,

RR

How do you do that first one?

IronFist

[cobra]

Try this one. Never say never, there is a time and place for everything.

[vingtsunstudent]

ok then.
why do we practice bong sau so often?
is it because it is such a good technique or is it because it is something that that we should never have to use but if we do we need to make it so second nature & fluent that it almost becomes a simultaneous attack & defence.
to me it's the latter.
bong should only be used if you are caught off gaurd or have made a mistake, to me if you have time to use a technique then there are always better options, for example tan da or fuk da(although i know that some peoples version of fuk may differ than the way we use it from what i have read here)
even a pak sau should be moving foward 90% of the time, thus meaning it can then be used to attack, unless of course you have again made a mistake and are using it to cover a tech. that has made its way through.
s teebas, i do understand what you are sayin but again there are better options & to me it sounds like you might be concerning yourself with using bong to much.(or maybe not, in which case i appoligise)
bong can also be used as an attack but again are there not much better ways that we deal with an opponent that using this.
quite simply we are not all perfect & i'm sure that at some stage in a fight(i must admit that in all my street encounters thus far i have yet to use it) we will have to use a bong sau in a fight but it does worry me a little that so many people are concerned with over using it esp. when people talk about leading with a bong sau(surely you people are joking right)
vts

[IronFist]

Originally posted by vingtsunstudent
when people talk about leading with a bong sau(surely you people are joking right)
vts

Yeah, I made this whole thread as a joke... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Whatever dude.

IronFist

[aelward]

I tend to use bong sao three different ways:

1. As a primary deflection: against hammer-type punches of Choy Lay Fut and White Crane, pre-contact. Some people will say to just charge in and chain punch along the centerline because your hit will reach your opponent first; I have found this is true, but it doesn't guarantee that you will stop the momentum of the punch. Other hand motions don't defend so well against this type of arc if you are facing straight on; though if you flank using footwork, other things might.

2. As a conversion upon pressure to the outside of my forearm: pretty straight forward, here, just like in dan chi sao. Without using force, I can keep my structure from collapsing by converting to bong sao. For example, say if you are punching and someone pak sao or gong saos your arm on the outside gate. If you kept your arm straight, your shoulder angle between your arm and trunk would decrease, inhibiting motion. If you convert to a bong sao, you can keep your structure open, then proceed based upon the position and force of your opponent's structure.

3. To pin: in a low bong sao position, you can close from the flank and pin one of your opponent's arms. While everyone says bong sao should be temporary, I have found that you can maintain this position for as long as their pinned hand is dead. If they move that hand, obviously, you will have to convert to another position according to force.

just my point of view, feel free to critique or condemn.

[anerlich]

Hey, Anerlic...Dont concentrate on the 'after'..or you will miss all the heavenly glory!!

Stick to what you're good at (i.e. NOT comedy), and for chrissake learn to spell my name correctly. Didn't see a a lot of heaven nor glory either, but of course if I make a smarta$$ comment and follow it with a smiley or two that'll make everything all right, won't it? :D :D

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by IronFist


Whoa, I must suck then, because I can do it :D

Watch I'll show you: Here comes a punch... I bong sao'ed it!

IronFist

Good luck with that.

[reneritchie]

Ironfist - The simple, but frustrating, answer is timing, sensitivity, and structure. You joing bridges, feel the opponent's center, and apply power in a path they cannot cope with.

Rgds,

RR

[S.Teebas]

for chrissake learn to spell

er...ok.

Sorry mate, i didnt realise your so sensitive about such things like a bit of humor, even if it was really corny.

Well if you want to comment on the TECHNICAL things i said i welcome you comments!