Hey Jim Roselando

[Miles Teg]

Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun sounds very interesting. I want to know more about it.
Is there a website about it?

How do you guys train?
How much time do you spend on different things?

Have you trained a Yip Man lineage or have much experience with it? If so how is it different?

Do you do chi sao? If so is it compatible with other W.C chi sao?

Some info would be greatly appreciated.
Miles Teg

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Thanks for your questions. Yes, it is a very interesting art. I truly love it!

At this time there is no web site but you can go to www.wingchunkuen.com and check out some of the articles I have on there. They are Leung Jan's Har San, Leung Jan's Personal System and Leung Jan's Subtle Power. They are located in the Koo Lo Tea House!

The way we train is not much different from other WC. Lots of partner sets, dummy hands, chi sao, jao sao, etc.. The time we spend depends on what we need and what mood we are in.

I did a variation of YM's WC for about 5 years. How different is it? Well, I will let Leung Jan's own words answer this! This is what he told his final 3 pupils when they asked the same question!

The Wing Chun outside our village is the Jing Sun (straight body) or Facing style which is taught in 3 parts (SLT/CK/BJ). The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun (side body) style which is taught in one set of hand skills. The hands differ very little and both come from the same family. The pole methods of the Jing Sun WC is the Luk Dim Boon Gwun (6.5 pole) but in our village it is the Som Dim Boon Gwun (3.5 pole).

There is very little info. out on our art but if you have seen Yuen Kay San's WC you will see the art that closests resembles ours. Very compact, more noticeable small sharp twists and circles, etc..


As for the Chi Sao. Leung Jan's WC did not do the Luk Sao or Poon Sao Chi Sao. We do what is called Seung Huen Sao Chi Sao (dbl circling hand sticking hands). It is very smooth and sticky with a focus on feeling the flow of movement, holes in structure and other things.


Hope that helps,

[planetwc]

Jim,

Who is teaching this system in the US?
And is it the same as Gu Lo Wing Chun?

[Jim Roselando]

Who is teaching our art?

Well, there are 3 masters that I know of in the US. Fung Chu, Fung Ming and Mui Wai Hun. The Fung's only practice in private and Mui Sifu has taught a handfull over the years. There are a few of his public pupils teaching around the Boston area and a few of his disciples help him run his club just outside of Boston.


Is it the same as Koo Lo WC?

Well, thats a tricky question! See, Leung Jan's Pin Sun art was developed by him in Koo Lo village so at times PSWC is called Koo Lo WC but I have seen some other systems coming from the village that are a bit different from what we preserve. I would rather discuss our lineage and what Leung Jan's senior student (Wong Wah Sam) preserved as his final teaching.


Regards,

[Wingman]

Hi Jim,

I have questions about Pin Sun wing chun. Please don't take it the wrong way.

If Pin Sun wing chun means "side body", does it mean that it favors one side of the body only? Isn't it ambidextrous just like "straight body" wing chun? What do you think are the advantages and/or disadvantages of "side body" over "straight body" and vice versa?

[Jim Roselando]

Thanks for the question.


The name seems to have confused you a bit. Pin Sun WC is no different from any other WC when it comes to developing both sides of the body equally. Yes, we are ambidextrous! It does not favor either side.

As for its advantages or dis.-advantages I will say this. It is a lot simpler of a progression and has lots of two man training to develop the feeling/ging. Everything is trained from non-contact to contact, from sticking hand and running hands while some of the other systems I have practiced mainly have a few drills to develop the skills found within the forms and then teach most thru chi sao.

In the end it is truly up to the individual. If you train hard at either art you will have a special treasure that should be there for you if you need it to be.


Regards,

[fa_jing]

Hello Jim! I found your articles interesting. In Pin Sun WC, when you pratice the stance turning, do you turn on your heels, or through the center of the foot? Also, what is the standard weight distribution in the sitting (side) horse stance? Since your style is descended from Leung Jan's later period, perhaps this reflects his preferences at the time of transmission. Just curious, we have seen a lot of debate regarding these points, personally I don't think it matters that much as long as you are consistent, but I am curious.

-FJ

[sunkuen]

Can you name the principles of pin sun wing chun for us please?

[Jim Roselando]

Fa Jing,


According to our information when Leung Jan originally taught in Futshan he utilized a 100/0 weighting just like most old style WC. When he developed the Pin Sun WC he changed the weighting to 50/50 but still maintained the compact nature of the horse. The only thing different was the weighting. "One" of the reasons was he decided to change the kicking principles so there was no reason to maintain the 100/0 anylonger. When we turn the horse we do not shift on the heels! The heels swing and the point is more towards the front center. If you read the Leung Jan Ha San article on www.wingchunkuen.com you can read a few reasons why but we also have some stories that Leung Jan told Wong Wah Sam as to why you should not shift on the heels. That I will discuss in the future as I am thinking about writing an article on his quotes!


Sun Kuen,


Principles are not different from any other WC art. You have;

Kuen Yau Sum Faat
Loi Lao Hoi Sung Lat Sao Jik Chung
Jung Sein
Etc.

and some others (a fair ammount but not too many) that if you read Rene Ritchie's principles you will find some of ours in there except we do not have Keywords (as that was something YKS developed). There are not many but they are indeed profound but not too many to make one over think or take the simple and make it not so simple.

;)

Regards,

[fa_jing]

Jim - Thanks for your response. You say Leung Jan changed the kicking principles - how so? I do think from the side horse, you should be able to kick with either leg, especially the "back" leg, which of course you can't do if you have 100% of the weight on it.
Weight should be 50-50, at most 60-40.

-FJ

[Jim Roselando]

Fa Jing,


Kicking skills a primarily used for counter-kicking although we do at times kick when the opportunity presents itself. Otherwise we prefer to keep our feet on the ground. That was "one" of the reasons for the stance weighting modification. As for not being able to kick with either leg if you are 100/0 I cannot answer as I do not train the original stance methods so you may want to start a new topic and ask this question to the Yuen Kay San folks or the Leung Sheung people etc.. Hope that helps a bit!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hey Jim, Fa Jing,

Jim, even though 50/50, lest people think you look like William Cheung or Ho Kam-Ming or one of the other 50/50 approaches, you still keep the narrow YJKYM with the knees in to about one-fist distance, right?

Fa-Jing, you can kick from 100/0 with either leg, though it takes time to develop (basically, you brace and/or use the opponent as an equalizing 0/100 ;) You see this in both the Sum Nung and early Yip Man dummy, I think.

Rgds,

RR

[Jim Roselando]

Hi ya Rene!


Correct! Our art has no structural similarities to Willeum Cheung's or Ho Kam Ming's etc.. It is much more compact and makes use fo the knees no more than a fist distance approach. Basically, if you took your YKS horse and changed the weighting to 50/50 then that would be it! Have a good one!


Regards,

[sunkuen]

Thanx for the reply.

[Jim Roselando]

Hope I was able to help!

:)


Regards,

[Miles Teg]

The articles were very good!

"We do what is called Seung Huen Sao Chi Sao (dbl circling hand sticking hands). It is very smooth and sticky with a focus on feeling the flow of movement, holes in structure and other things".

Is this still with a tan to bong hand and a following fok hand?
When you say you try to find holes in there structure is it through forward pressure?

The different combinatiuons of hand drills sounds like a good idea.

[reneritchie]

In terms of Chi Sao (Sticking Hands):

Gulao (Koo Lo/Pien San), Cho family, Yuen Chai-Wan (Nguyen Te-Cong), and Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung all have base Chi Sao platforms of Seung Huen Sao (Double Circling Hands) and Noi/Ngoi Lim Sao (Inside/Outside Circling Hands).

Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung and Yip Man both have a base Chi Sao platform of Luk Sao (Rolling Hands - the one most people are familiar with).

Pan Nam has Aat Yiu (Waist Pressing) and a form of Tui Sao (Pushing Hands), and Pao Fa Lien has the latter as well.

Some non Yuen Kay-San or Yip Man branches have since added in Luk Sao. Some Yip Man sub-branches have since added in Seung Huen Sao and/or Noi/Ngoi Lim Sao.

Rgds,

RR

[fa_jing]

Since you said that you do not turn your feet as windsheild wipers, are the following true, when practicing turning:

1. Do you break contact with the floor or other surface you are practicing on?

2. Do you move one foot a split second before the other?

Thanks

[Jim Roselando]

Miles,


Thanks for the compliment. It helps when you have a good editor. (that would be Rene!)

;)


Depending on which chi sao we train you can find those core elements within the circling platforms. There was a standard platform that Leung Jan passed on and he also developed a few more! The forward intent is what find the the holes!


Fa Jing,


We do not break contact with the floor or should I say hope to never break contact and always move both feet and body as one unit.


Hope that helps,

[fa_jing]

Jim - Thanks!!

I'll keep on asking - when you practice circle stepping, you brush the feet lightly along the ground, as we do in Yip Man style?

Jim / Rene: do you practice the Exchange Step in your respective styles? This is where the back foot comes up to the front foot, then the front foot steps forward. Very useful for kicking while maintaining your momentum forward.

I am equally curious if you practice the Embracing step, but I will be starting a new thread on that one.

-Keith (FJ)

[Jim Roselando]

Kieth,


All footwork in Leung Jan's Pin Sun art glides along the ground.

As for what you call "exchange" step??? I know what you are descibing as it sounds very similar to what Bruce Lee called the Burning step but it is not part of what Leung Jan taught in Koo Lo.

Embracing step? Never heard this term either. There was something I heard A. Fong call Bracing footwork in his videos? Is this what you are talking about? Comes from the knives? :confused:


Regards,

[reneritchie]

FJ - Not perse, though we do have the step in both Chum Kiu and Biu Jee where the "back" foot comes up next to the front step. Where we may differ is that, following this, *either* foot can step forward (one of the reasons why we do it in the first place).

Rgds,

RR

[fa_jing]

RR - yes, we have the "exchange step" in the Chum Kil form too.
I wasn't aware that you may step with either foot forward afterwards - we do not practice this application. When we step up to the front foot, both feet are still at about a 30 degree angle from the forward direction. Is this the position you find your feet, or do you turn them both to face front? We do have a step in Chum Kil where we step the back foot to the front, while turning both feet to face forward. However, this is at the end of the line of movement, and from here we take a step back and turn our stance so that we head back in the other direction.

Jim - The "Embracing step" is similar to Fong's "Bracing step." Fong starts from the sitting (side) horse stance, then either moves his lead leg forward, or his rear leg backward to "brace" the punch. The position he ends up in, is the same as our embracing step: rear hand forward, sitting horse stance, staggered feet with relation to the forward direction. By turning your stance and moving your rear foot foward of the front foot, you can march up the room in this angled stance. It can also be performed while retreating. I don't have an explaination for the difference in names, but we do consider the step to be embracing because you contract your inner thigh muscles to make the step, also you are jamming your opponent and you keep your opponent forward leg somewhere between your own two legs.

-FJ

[Jim Roselando]

Keith,


The footwork you refer to as Embracing is a major part of Leung Jan's Pin Sun art. This is part of the Pin Sun Ma horse training and is practiced moving forward and backward. The slight difference I see between what I see Fong sifu doing on his tape is; He shifts on his heels which was against what Leung Jan taught in Koo Lo and seems to lean backwards a bit.


Do you have the proper Chinese names for these steps? If so, I will compare them to what Leung Jan called them in Koo Lo.


Regards,

[fa_jing]

Jim - I'll ask my sifu about the chinese name, i'm not sure if he knows. About turning on the heels - goes hand in hand with leaning backwards a bit, or concentrating the weight in the rear leg. It is my belief that turning on the heels is a simplification of Leung Jan's original turning. But, it makes things real cut-and-dried, particularly with the "(em)bracing" step. One can feel right away where the feet need to go. So that's an advantage. The disadvantage is that if you receive a force to your midsection while turning, you may be sent backwards as your weight is centered briefly through your heels. As far as I can see.

So then, you turn on the Kidney 1 point? That's a couple centimeters back of the ball of the foot.

-Keith

[reneritchie]

FJ - Both feet point straight. We try to maintain as perfect a possible balance through our steps, which means when we come "feet together" like that, it should be impossible to tell afterward which foot came forward (we aren't giving away any excess momentum). This means, regardless of how an opponent may move, we're free to adjust equally to either side.

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

Things are best shown... and net descriptions can distort
realities. I am balanced on my whole feet...but the heel provides a swivel in my turn... I do NOT rock back on my heels... and I have had big guys charge into me in the middle of the bracing step-
without destroying my structure. The bracing step can be powerful in releasing energy into the dummy without being bounced back. This can be shown and I do show it when I meet with wing chun folks from other lines- which i do from time to time.

[fa_jing]

RR - thanks. When we do the type of step you are describing, we also execute a double huen sao, double - vertical palm strike as the feet meet. I am interested in the possibilities of striking while bringing the feet together, then stepping forward with another strike, something I've been playing around with lately. Also, this seems similar to a step from Xing-Yi, although when I brought this up to a friend who studies this, the movement seemed different to him.


Yuanfen - sorry to open a can of worms. One thing I noticed at the Augustine Fong seminar, is that the bracing step can be used to instantly yeild to, then brace against force. The pivot point through the heels, feels like a very natural turning point with this step.

-FJ

[yuanfen]

A hsing yi friend thought there was a parallel...but ofcourse not the same. But it is a developmental routine. Uses can vary.
Open Can of worms? Not to worry.
In the Arizona heat they shrivel fast.

[fa_jing]

:)

[reneritchie]

FJ - We have one with double palms, one with double biu jee, but each point is separate and you can mix and match which bit goes at the end of the tools within reason.

I played a year of so of Xingyi (just the 5 elements) before becoming serious about WCK and also found a lot of similarities between the elements and the core WCK points. But then, there are only so many ways arts from similar places with the same material (humans) and goal (fighting) can evolve.

Rgds,

RR