Internal and the knees

[Fu-Pow]

I've just started making a concerted effort to do standing meditation for at least 1/2 hr a each day. I can say that the first thing I've noticed is the area directly above my knee cap is really sore. (Surprising considering that I can hold a solid horse stance for several minutes.) Is that a good or bad sign? I've noticed that high level Taiji players have a lot of muscle right around the knee cap. Even the older ones. Any thoughts on this? Do the tendons (ie the part of the muscle directly attached to the bone get more of work out then the rest of the muscle?)

[Nexus]

A lot of taiji injuries are isolated to the knees. This is usually due to the knees being used to turn and pivot rather than used for rotating front/back and allowing the leg to lift up and down.

That doesn't directly answer your question however.

- Nexus

[Maestro1700]

actually nexus, your statement about taiji should read

A lot of taiji injuries are isolated to the knees, when practiced incorrectly

if you look back in chinese history/myth legend or historical books, on martial arts taiji etc nowhere does it say anything about them having any knee problems..and yet its the most common injury of taiji practitioners in the west.

i think thats a message in and of itself

fu pow unless your having some other problem with your standing meditation unrelated to your training then ok..look into it
but if your having problems with your knees..that developed into serious problems..id suggest you evaluate the way your practiceing, or have your sifu evaluate your practice if he isnt already..

[GLW]

Knee problems and Taijiquan - quite common if you go too low to soon or if you have structural problems with stances.

The most common structural problems...Back knee in Gong Bu is too straight - this can cause pain in the low back - so since you are having knee pain, this may be a problem but NOT THE problem.

Collapsing the rear foot - even slightly - can cause pain in the knee.

Turning the front toe in or out too much can cause knee pain and do damage over time to the ligaments and cartilage of the knee.

Over-extending stances - the knee going even slightly beyond the toe (good way to check is go into a stance and move forward looking down over the knee until the toe just disappears from view....no further or you are in danger zone for the knee and you will have pain EXACTLY where you are reporting it.

This can be the same problem if you are doing standing if you sink into a horse..

If the knees are not aligned with the feet you can also end up with knee pain.

If the knees are strong, these same structural problems can cause ankle pain as well.

[PLCrane]

If you're talking about the muscle a couple inches above the top of the kneecap being sore afterward, and it feels just like the muscle soreness you get a day or two after a hard workout, then you're probably ok. If it feels like it's in the kneecap or under it or anywhere in the joint, it could be more serious.

Half an hour is a long time. You might need to build up to that. It is possible to strain tendons this way - you get micro-tearing and inflammation, which would cause pain and tenderness in the tendon and where it attaches to the bone.

Any time you bend your knee with weight on it, be sure that your knee/thigh point in the same direction as that foot. When you turn on a planted foot, keep the knee pointing with the toe, so that all the rotation comes from the hip joint (kua).

Good luck.

PLCrane

[PLCrane]

Originally posted by Maestro1700
if you look back in chinese history/myth legend or historical books, on martial arts taiji etc nowhere does it say anything about them having any knee problems..and yet its the most common injury of taiji practitioners in the west.


I know of someone who spent some time training in Japan, and he couldn't understand why his horse stance didn't look like the other students'. He finally got out a tape and measured a bunch of thighs and legs of both westerners and Japanese. He determined that the Japanese are built differently (different thigh:leg length ratio), and he speculated that this made the difference in the horse stance. Sorry I don't have details.

PLCrane

[Kevin Wallbridge]

One of the problems with knees is that we try to solve the difficulties relating to knees in isolation. What I mean by this is that knees issues are not really knee issues, they have to do with the relationship between the hip and the ankle.

Knees are a weight transference joint, their mechanical characteristics are such that they do not bear weight the as well as an ankle does. Anytime the relationship between the hip and the ankle is compromised (where the knee is beyond the toes or the femur is not in line with the long bones of the foot), then some part of the knee is bearing the body weight.

At one time I worked hard on the knee problem and corrected various aspects of structure by working slowly to keep track of what my knees were doing in certain postures at certain times. Then one teacher said "consider the feeling of the weight of the hip and the sole of your foot. Don't visually check your knee alignment just connect your hips and feet."

After this my power and connection to the earth increased dramatically, I was able to release more of my upper body, and I have never had any knee issues since.

[Walter Joyce]

I agree with what Kevin said both about the weight transference aspect and the shifting of focus. However, before you completely shift your focus, you may want to try opening the backs of your knees, i.e. expand or open the muscles behind the knee so that you releve any pressure on the patella itself. Also, I feel there is little relationship between stance training externally and intrnall. The former is mainly for strength IMO, while the latter is about alignment and relaxing and releasing into the proper structure.

[Fu-Pow]

If you're talking about the muscle a couple inches above the top of the kneecap being sore afterward, and it feels just like the muscle soreness you get a day or two after a hard workout, then you're probably ok.

Yeah that's it. It's not really a "problem" I just noticed an intense soreness afterwards and I never really noticed it till I stopped standing.

Sometimes soreness can mean your doing something correctly and sometimes incorrectly. Just trying to get some feedback.

Thanks for the responses.

Yau Sam

[Sum Guye]

If you're tucking your butt under that can put abnormal pressure on the knees- causeing pain.