Bruce Lee this,Bruce Lee that.!!

[zipper]

Who is sick of hearing about someone who tryed to buy Yip Man,and not even show hes respect to the old man in hes last days of life. I think the fight, Wong Jack Man vs Lee was a defeat to Bruce Lee.Who is going to belive someone who used drugs and had no respect for hes style or Master,not me.

Hey just my 2 cents.

[tri2bmt]

Fair enough but Yip Man was a regualar smoker of Opium which led to his eventual throat cancer and death.
Granted Bruce Lee didn't seem to care about his style but I think he really appreciated it and never forgot it for what it gave him. I think most of his classical bashing came from seeing American Karate-do people acting like robots.

[yuanfen]

Ok Ok--- I am going to see the Yip Man movie when it comes out
with Bruce lee and Linda Lee in it..

Ok Ok---without Bruce Lee there may not have been a kung fu craze
(what would have been so bad with that).

Ok OK--- magazine covers will continue to feature Bruce Lee
till
kingdom come.

Ok Ok- Bruce Lee really proved to the karate stars of his time that
wing chun had more flow than karate.

Ok Ok- the distortion does not matter. bruce Lee was in Wong Shon Leung's classes and was not a direct student of Yip Man.
Ok Ok- so BL's sil lim tao(see Yim Lee book which was really BL's book) was a muscled sil lim tao with little nim in it. But I still think that if they want to with good research and dramatic writing Yip Man can be a great movie subject with justa little hint of the Bruce Lee saga. His personal exploits were so many- barely touched upon in the standard stories. In the right writers hands
they are great fuel.Even the very small story there in Victor Kan;s old site of YM dispatching a guy who was beating up on his wife outside the kwoon. His handling of some karate guys who dropped on on a private lesson.His early fights with others in Fatshan. The Japanese era. Being in trouble with the new Communist regime. Escaping. Putting Leung Shun in his place. Controllinga young tough...WSL. For human drama... his personal life... children--some unrecognized still...there are lots of stories that if properly developed could keep Yip Man as the main focus... and could be dramatic. Look what Robert De niro did with Jake Lamotta's almost forgotten story before The Raging Bull.

[Miles Teg]

Yeah it good be good.
But whats the bet there'll be at least one spinning backflip roundhouse kick in it though.

[Lust]

Originally posted by zipper
Who is sick of hearing about someone who tryed to buy Yip Man,and not even show hes respect to the old man in hes last days of life. I think the fight, Wong Jack Man vs Lee was a defeat to Bruce Lee.Who is going to belive someone who used drugs and had no respect for hes style or Master,not me.

Hey just my 2 cents.

Ok I don't know much about Bruce Lee or Master Yip Man but who excactly used drugs. I could'nt quite understand your sentence.

[fgxpanzerz]

Did u guys know that after BL's famous one inch punch demonstration in Madison Square Garden, he get his arse beat by a few southern praying mantis guys since he said he was a southern mantis master. They were supposed to kill him but decided not to since he was a rising star that could provide them with funds.

[yuanfen]

Where did you get that story?
Stories!

[kungfu cowboy]

You left off the ending! Where he actually turned into a giant (well, 5'2") praying mantis and bit off all their heads! Boogie boogie!:p

[Phil Redmond]

You wrote:
>>Ok Ok- the distortion does not matter. bruce Lee was in Wong Shon Leung's classes and was not a direct student of Yip Man. <<

Bruce Lee was a student of Yip Man. Some one found out that Bruce was Eurasian, (part German). The seniors got Yip Man to dismiss him. At that time Wong Shun Leung had his own school.
Bruce Lee went to Wong Shun Leung after that.

Yes, Yip Man was an Opium addict. The reason the students were able to convince Yip Man to dismiss Bruce, whom he liked, was because he had the Opium problem and wasn't very responsible with the rent. He was given a stipend to live on from his seniors for his own good. They threatened his stipend if he didn't make Bruce leave. Yip Man asked Wong Shun Leung to teach him.

The last 10 months before Bruce left for the States, he trained with Cheung Cheuk Hing, (William Cheung), who introduced Bruce to Yip Man.

[yuanfen]

Phil

That's William Cheung's version of the story.
Lots of stories.

[anerlich]

Did u guys know that after BL's famous one inch punch demonstration in Madison Square Garden, he get his arse beat by a few southern praying mantis guys since he said he was a southern mantis master. They were supposed to kill him but decided not to since he was a rising star that could provide them with funds.

No but I heard the one about the guy who challenged Bruce and Bruce riped his heart out of his chest and showed it to him before he died.

About both stories I say: "I smell BOOLSHEEEIT!"

Glad to see those brave PM guys decided on a multiple attack, in the unlikely event the story has any basis in reality.

Bruce Lee mightn't have been a saint. However, I reckon a significant number of people started MA training as a direct result of his activities. He mightn't deserve adoration or worship, but he does deserve respect. Many WC schools worldwide continue to use his involvement with WC as a hook in their advertising.

[fgxpanzerz]

believe whatever you want. They teamed up because they were gonna KILL him, not to just beat him up which they did anyway. This is where Bruce Lee's famous letter comes into play, the one where he says that Yip Man had great skill but he can't compare to the fighters of NYC Chinatown. Bruce Lee got his arse wooped by many people no one knows about. William Cheung has a letter written to him from Bruce Lee detailing all of this information.

[anerlich]

believe whatever you want
That's my plan.

William Cheung has a letter written to him from Bruce Lee detailing all of this information.
William Cheung? Oh, *now* you're talking. He's *never* made any exaggerated or unverifiable claims about MA or WC history. And according to him, Bruce would have been killed about a dozen times before he left HK had William Cheung not been there to save him.

Man, I can't believe I've posted twice on this most ridiculous of subjects. Yeah, the joke must be on me.

[fgxpanzerz]

how do u know what William Chueng says about Bruce Lee isn't true? Were u in Hong Kong to verify or to denounce his claim? I doubt it. Post again.

[TenTigers]

Bruce Lee was quoted saying, "there are guys waiting on tables whose skill surpasses, dare I say it-Sifu," He was referring to Mark Foon, (Grandmaster Gin Foon Mark) who was a waiter in Chinatown, at Jook Lum a resteraunt owned by Lam Sang-BTW Mark Foon says that he and Bruce were good friends and trained often together. There are pictures of Bruce wearing what appears to be striped PJ bottoms, performing movements from Sam Bo Gin. There are a few different versions of this story, so I take each one with a grain of salt. At this point, I am retaining water.

[TenTigers]

Let's not forget that BL's relationship with Yip Man was strained, and he really never learned the entire system, and Yip Man was quite old at the time, and Bruce didn't really train very directly under him, and, and.......so I don't see this as meaning that he met with a superior system, just superior fighters. Oh, and BTW, have you ever seen old pics of Gin Foon Mark? The man was buff to say the least. Sifu Norman Chin is also pretty muscular. no wonder they threw him around like a rag doll.(from what I've heard) I don't think that there is one superior system, just superior fighters. These systems all were developed about the same time, during life and death struggles. If there was a superior style, the others would have gone by the wayside. It would be pretty stupid to continue doing a system, stubbornly clinging to it when a better method is developed. These systems are simply specializations born from each individual founder's preference for specifc techniques and concepts. In other words, "It's all good!"

[fgxpanzerz]

does muscle matter much when it comes to martial arts? I mean, isn't better technique more important than big muscles?

[Rafael]

I think this is a ridiculous topic.... it’s like who can beat who?.king Kong vs godzilla?

Point is Bruce Lee is dead and people should learn to respect the dead. After all he is not here to deny or to make any statements about these wild claims.

It is clear the positive contributions Lee has made to martial arts world ...after all you all are still talking about him after so many years after his death right?

I think it is cowardly to talk about a person who cannot defend him or her.

It makes those with the negative statements look insecure and jealous !

Where were all these "mantis " guys when Bruce was alive?

Now they come out of the woodwork with their BS?

Yes when he cannot defend himself !

Bruce Lee respected Gin Mark and preying mantis.... but lets not go overboard with these tall tales wild claims .

RF

[Rafael]

I think this is a ridiculous topic.... it’s like who can beat who? King Kong vs godzilla?

Point is Bruce Lee is dead and people should learn to respect the dead. After all he is not here to deny or to make any statements about these wild claims.

It is clear the positive contributions Lee has made to martial arts world ...after all you all are still talking about him after so many years after his death right?

I think it is cowardly to talk about a person who cannot defend him/herself.

It makes those with the negative statements look insacure and jealous !

Where were all these "mantis " guys when Bruce was alive?

Now they come out of the woodwork with their BS?

Yes when he cannot defend himself !

Bruce Lee respected Gin Mark and preying mantis.... but lets not go overboard with these tall tales wild claims .

Could you personaly stand up to Bruce Lee?

If not do not talk and hide behind your masters .Stand on your own 2 feet !

RF

[anerlich]

Post again.
Only because you asked so politely...

Were u in Hong Kong to verify or to denounce his claim? I doubt it.
Well, FWIW, I was in HK in 1982 at a tournament also attended by William Cheung. But I thought this alleged incident happened in NY, so what does being in HK have to do with anything?

My first instructor has been teaching KF since 1969 and was a student of William Cheung in the late 1960's. The family of a friend and former workmate have a non-KF business relationship with William Cheung and know him well. I gained instructor certification from the WWCKFA in 1995 under William Cheung's most senior student at the time, prior to our school severing ties in 1996. I think I have a better perspective on this than you do.

Were *you* in HK to *verify* his claims? I doubt it.

The point is, to accept everything (anything) William Cheung says as gospel, you have to accept his stories about Traditional and Modified WC, and that only he was taught the "true" version of Wing Chun by Yip Man. I can't, therefore I take most of what he claims about history, BL etc. with lots of salt.

That said, CMA is rife with tall tales and I don't think William Cheung is any worse than a lot of others when it comes to exaggeration and over-mystification and dramatisation of events. Just more outspoken.

In his "My life with Wing Chun" (which I assume, as a scholar of these subjects, you have read), and in other writings, William Cheung paints Bruce Lee alternately as a poor little rich kid who Cheung took under his wing, or a hothead with poor judgement who got into a number of dicey situations with gangsters, and only William Cheung's skill and imtelligence were able to save Bruce from himself. All of these stories may be true, but they do sound a little too conveniently self-serving and cannot be corroborated. If they are true, however, then it should come as no surprise that Bruce would have some trouble with a group of skilled Mantis fighters.

There are other stories of how Bruce used to get under Gene LeBell's skin, and Gene would occasionally pick him up and carry him around the room until he calmed down. Joe Lewis is on record as saying that Bruce rarely sparred and that he (Joe) had some reservations at his ability to prevail in real combat, though none about his knowledge or skill as a teacher. Bruce Lee wasn't invincible? Imagine!

I find it ridiculous that anyone gets so worked up about this stuff. But I love a good argument on a ridiculous subject.

does muscle matter much when it comes to martial arts? I mean, isn't better technique more important than big muscles?
Skill had better be more important, or we are wasting our time and might as well all start pumping iron fulltime. The skill of two combatants being equal, though, I'm betting on the stronger guy.

[Rafael]

Hello analich,

I find it ridiculious that someone is so absorbed by redderick and here say .

word to the wise :believe none of what you read half of what you see.

See this is the problem with most forum coutch potatoe MA . tHE TOO BUSY worried about stories instead of training .

HAVE A GREAT DAY !:)

RF-

[MantisWill]

There was an article in KFQG (I think) recently about how Bruce *did* spend some time with a Mantis teacher. If you're familiar with SPM, you'll see it in some of Bruce's postures, handwork, etc. I also happen to believe this is where he picked up his "inch Power", as that is something SPM practices all the time. But, he could've gotten it anywhere. I remember seeing a chapter in a old book about chinese masters, and it was bout this guy who could drive you to your knees just by "screwing" his hand into your belly.

[yuanfen]

Success hasa thousand fathers... all sorts of people claim to have "taught" BL something or the other.

[Rafael]

Sure there is no doubt Bruce picked up a thing or 2 training with Mark. I bet you Mark got something training with Bruce as well.

Sure evidence is what Bruce did does point to PM. In fact he was quoted as saying behind WC it was the the most effective Gung fu style he believed.

There is no argument about that. The argument is all these guys comming out of the woodwork saying they beat up Bruce and putting him down for there own jealousy and short commings!

The argument is for all the hyperbole tales of how they were going to kill him . As if you just study PM will make you invincible.

I have study some seven star and southen mantis myself . I see its benifits . At the same time I know it is the artist that makes the art go . Not the other way around.

So these mantis guys are saying they all could be Bruce. Gee I wonder why ???


Mabey to prey on weak minded people and make a quick buck ?

I can read between the lines here. It is sick the way people try to make money off a dead man .

RF-

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
Did u guys know that after BL's famous one inch punch demonstration in Madison Square Garden, he get his arse beat by a few southern praying mantis guys since he said he was a southern mantis master. They were supposed to kill him but decided not to since he was a rising star that could provide them with funds.

Hello All,

This story should get your BS meter jumping off of the scale for several reasons.

1) No one has heard of this story. There are other supposed BL fights that have at least surfaced before now. The author of this crap tries in vain to cover himself by talking vaguely about "many Bruce Lee fights no one has heard of". Whatever!

2) If these guys were mad at Bruce for claiming to be a "Mantis Master" then why gang up on him? The only way to disprove such a claim would have been for one of them to beat him in a fair fight. Sorry, but even "Master Mark" or "Yip Man in his prime" would get beaten if faced with a sufficiently large enough group of opponents. How many people are we talking about? 5, 10, 20? Mike Tyson in his prime was the dominant boxer in the world. If a gang of 10 to 20 angry heighweight contenders jumped him a match and managed to get the best of him, what would that prove? Absolutely positively nothing.

3) The "they ganged up on him because they wanted to kill him" explanation is BS also. If that were the case they could have just shot him and been done with it.

4) Considering that Bruce had started making a name for himself when this supposedly happened means that he would have somehow had to account for all of the injuries from being beaten within an inch of his life.

5) Where is the evidence of Bruce Lee ever claiming to be a mantis master in the first place? Master Mark has had much more to say about Bruce's training in Mantis than I've ever been able to find Bruce to say.

6) The story is completely unverifiable. Not a single "mantis practictioner" is mentioned by name. They aren't even identified as "students of Sifu so-and-so". So there's no way that anyone can check up on the story to see if it is true or not.

7) The claim that they kept Bruce alive so that because "he was a rising kung fu star and this would help them make money" is laughable! If there was a profit motive anywhere than why haven't any of these guys stepped forward with this story and cashed in? It's got to at least be worth a magazine exclusive interview.

What is sad is that some people in the MA world are jealous of a dead man because they somehow feel that his success reflects badly on their art. That is silly. I'm glad many Wing Chun practictioners have a much more mature perspective. This thread seemed to grow out of the "Ip Man the movie" thread over someone being disgruntled about the possiblity of Bruce being represented in that movie. Well guess what? Bruce Lee is still Ip Man's most famous student. To not include him at all in a movie about Ip Man's life is as dishonest as it would be to make Bruce Lee a central charecter in a movie about Ip Man's life. Ip Chun clearly holds no ill feelings toward Bruce Lee. In his book he talks of how the so called rift between Bruce Lee and Ip Man was a fantasy and that they even made public apperences together to try to dispell the rumours. He also talked of Bruce coming back to Hong Kong several times to continue training. I see no reason why any other Wing Chun practitioner should hold ill will toward Bruce Lee either.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Dark Knight]

"Point is Bruce Lee is dead and people should learn to respect the dead. After all he is not here to deny or to make any statements about these wild claims. "

But lets not make a god out of him. A lot of people want to claim he was more than what he was.

[Rafael]

I Fair enough ,we should let the dead rest in peace ..at the same ttime not make people more .....or less then they really were...

fair enough....but consider this...........



Questions you may want to ask that get to the motive of all this are:

1.Why even mention so and so beat Bruce Lee?

2. What exactly does that have to do with you?

3. How does this help you?

4. Why are people still mentioning Bruce Lee’s name in there associations if what you
Deem is superior?

5.Does rumors of so and so beating Bruce Lee automatically make you better cause so and so is from your style?

I am not pointing out one particular style or artist. But these days I am hearing all of this “Bruce only learned part of the system” stuff.

So imagine if you learned all of it? Would you surpass Lee??? !!! That’s what they want you to think! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So I think it’s time for those people whom Put Bruce down & at the same time try to mention him in their every sentence to sell their product to stand on there own .


Let's discuss his methods( as well as others ) and compare them intelligently.

fair enough ?

RF-

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
"Point is Bruce Lee is dead and people should learn to respect the dead. After all he is not here to deny or to make any statements about these wild claims. "

But lets not make a god out of him. A lot of people want to claim he was more than what he was.

Agreed. But I don't think that pointing out the holes in this story makes Bruce Lee a god. If I had said "Did you know that doing a demonstration some Praying Mantis practictioners tried to jump Bruce Lee and he totally kicked their collective asses?" That would have been just are irresponsible as the first story.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[fgxpanzerz]

jeez. why are u getting in a ****y fit. If u'd like to know the SPM guys' names, I'll tell u. Gin Foon Mark and Normin Chin. Always remember that Bruce didn't do anything for Chinese martial arts. It was the advertising companies that did. This has nothing to do with the yip man movie, which I know nothing about. It's interesting that u mention Ip Chun. He cashed in on his papa's death. I heard another story that Yip man didn't teach Yip chun sh*t about wing chun because yip chun was and is attracted to men. His butt buddy is probably that guy in all his books with him. Believe whatever you want and don't take everything so seriously.

[yuanfen]

Gin Foon Mark is a great martial artist. He knows hung gar as well but SPM is his main art. I have noihing nut respect for him. There are two Chins in NY SPM. I have heard good things about NC. But the Bruce Lee stories are getting garbled on this thread...and somewhat pointless.

[black and blue]

"I heard another story that Yip man didn't teach Yip chun sh*t about wing chun because yip chun was and is attracted to men. His butt buddy is probably that guy in all his books with him."

:(

[dezhen2001]

:(:mad: One way to get the thread locked...

david

[yuanfen]

TRUE.:(

[hunt1]

What does Yip Chun's sexual interests have to do with WC?How would you know and why would you care?Only 2 people know what Yip Man taught Yip Chun and one of them is dead.Everything else is just B.S.

You dont like Yip Chun's WC fine but personel attacks are not needed.

[anerlich]

You're the one having the tantrum and taking it personally, not jmdrake. He gave a reasoned post indicating why he doubts your story. Then you come up with some unrelated boolsheeit about Yip Chun's alleged sexual proclivity which was totally uncalled for.

I keep wanting to believe you're not an immature moron, you keep shattering my illusions. You're on a losing streak, cut your losses and move on.

Might be a good idea if this thread got locked. It's f***ing stupid.

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
jeez. why are u getting in a ****y fit. If u'd like to know the SPM guys' names, I'll tell u. Gin Foon Mark and Normin Chin. Always remember that Bruce didn't do anything for Chinese martial arts. It was the advertising companies that did. This has nothing to do with the yip man movie, which I know nothing about. It's interesting that u mention Ip Chun. He cashed in on his papa's death. I heard another story that Yip man didn't teach Yip chun sh*t about wing chun because yip chun was and is attracted to men. His butt buddy is probably that guy in all his books with him. Believe whatever you want and don't take everything so seriously.

Hello fgxpanzerz,

Thanks for mentioning the PM names. Now I KNOW your full of it! Gin Foon Mark never tried to "kill" Bruce Lee. Actually Bruce trained under Gin Foon Mark and they had a good relationship.

http://members.aol.com/martyeisen/mantis/Lee.htm

And those who are trying to "cash in" are the ones making up BS stories about how they beat up so-and-so.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[fgxpanzerz]

a lot of people keep saying this thread is stupid BUT all of you keep posting! And when u post, u post a lot. So who is really stupid?

[anerlich]

So who is really stupid?

All of us I guess. But you more than the rest.

You asked!

[Fu Jau]

In Fist of Fury, Bruce Lee goes into the kitchen of his school, to find the cook and another servant discussing how they killed his master. But then, it zooms in on the cook's 2 bare nipples for about 5 seconds, while playing sinister music! Why? Does anyone understand this? I know this seems insignificant, but it really startled me!

[Xebsball]

LOL i havent seen that, it really happens in the movie?
i gotta watch this

[HuangKaiVun]

Bruce Lee will always be far more beneficial to martial arts than any of his jealous haters will ever be.

The legend continues.

[HuangKaiVun]

Bruce Lee did FAR MORE than that.

He singlehandedly destroyed the image of China being the "sick man of Asia" and paved the way for Chinese families to emigrate all over the world.

It is because of Lee's contribution (sacrifice) that I can be proud to be an American. He is a hero to me because he paved the way for me to exist in this country without being mistreated because of my skin color.

Thus, Bruce Lee is my biggest hero. I shall never NOT defend him against those ignorants that stupidly try to degrade his importance.

[wooha]

You were obviously too transfixed by his nipples, you need to look lower.

Around his waist he's wearing a girdle like thing (Can't remember what it's called) which signifies that he is in fact Japanese, not Chinese as everyone had previously thought.

[Fu Jau]

Ahhhh.......well that does make sense. But it kind of destroys the magic. Thankyou for solving what i thought was another of life's great mysteries.

[Rafael]

BRUCE LEE
UNDERESTIMATED
by: Patrick Strong


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just the other day I received word from a European writer who has written a number of articles on Jeet Kune Do and, having known many of JKD's top people, is now completing a book on Bruce Lee and his Jeet Kune Do. I enjoyed the discussion, but there was something in te writer’s reporting that troubled me. It was the notion that Bruce Lee has been overestimated. Boy, how many times on different jkd forums have I read that very same thing.

My response was just the opposite. I maintained that Bruce was not overestimated but, in fact, that he was grossly UNDERESTIMATED! I went on to say that Bruce has never really received proper credit for the TRUE DEPTH of his KNOWLEDGE. What he has been credited for was an amazing exhibition of skills, breaking tradition, and the forming of a new martial art; and while these thoughts can be appreciated and are certainly true, they are, at very best, very shallow. In truth, Bruce had a scientific approach to martial art that began with a proven body of knowledge containing a host of pragmatic principles and startling mechanical advantages.

As a researcher, he was not only interested in experimenting with new ideas and concepts, but actually putting them to test and proving them out. As a young student of Wing Chun Gun Fu, he was driven to prove that what he learned in the kwoon would work in the street. In Hong Kong, Bruce Lee, his close friend and training partner, Hawkins Cheung, and a few other young men gained deserving reputations as "The Rooftop Fighters". When not fighting in the street, Bruce and Hawkins would meet go out of their way to meet other stylists on either a rooftop or is some darkened garage, as such fights in Hong Kong were illegal.

Whenever either one of them would run into a problem in a fight they would not rest until they figured out how to solve the problem. Fortunately, they had two wonderful sources to draw from. There was Wong Sheung Leung (Hawkins says he was known as, "Crazy Leung"), who was the most notorious battler of the Wing Chun clan, and one of the original Rooftop Fighters. Leung was older than Bruce and Hawkins, but he took an interest in them. Bruce and Hawkins, in turn, hung out with Leung to learn everything they could about real combat. Leung had been so respected as a fighter that even though he was a wing chun man, fighters from the other systems welcomed him as a referee even when fighting Wing Chun fighters. At the same time, Bruce and Hawkins would go to Master, Yip Man who, behind closed doors, would analyze their queries and give them special pointers to take into the street.

When Bruce packed his bags and left Hong Kong, he brought with him a unique fighting ability, based on a set of highly unique principles and mechanics. So unique were they, that martial artists in America would be amazed by his effectiveness. In 1959, Bruce gave a demonstration at Edison Technical School in Seattle where he met James DeMille, a former U.S. Army Heavy Weight boxing champion with over 100 fights in the ring. At 225 lbs, James was also a highly reputed and feared street fighter, yet he was no match for Bruce at around 135 lbs who could tie him knots and shut him down in an instant.

I remember when a karate sensei came over from Japan and challenged Bruce to a fight. After the fight, the Sensei explained

[Rafael]

his injuries as being in a car accident. It is reported that Bruce, after his fight with Won Jack Man, had been displeased with his performance and that is why he began to change his art. I recall having had dinner with Bruce shortly after that fight. At that moment, he had been most pleased with himself, considering that Won Jack Man was so very difficult to hit because he kept running and spinning and way from Bruce’s attack. It wasn't until Bruce was finally able to catch up to Man that they went to the ground where Bruce finished the fight. Knowing Bruce, I give Won Jack Man tremendous credit for his skills in avoidance. I think he was smart not to stand his ground with someone the likes of Bruce. At this period in Bruce’s life, he believed in ending the fight quick within the first few seconds. But this fight went on a bit with Bruce chasing his adversary with chain punches (straight blast). Anyone who has ever thrown bunches of chain punches knows how easy it is to tire quickly, since the activity requires involvement of Type II, Fast Twitch B muscle fibres for explosive outburst. Those type of fibres do indeed tire quickly before giving over to Type II, Fast Twitch A fibres, that also tire fast. Nevertheless, the outcome of a somewhat prolonged fight would have been adequate reason for Bruce Lee to more closely examine his method. Obviously, he viewed it as a problem and, like in the past, he set out to solve the problem.

I have told the story of how when in 1964 Ed Parker presented his first International Karate Tournament in Long Beach, where he invited a young and virtually unknown Bruce Lee to come and demonstrate his gung fu. For his demonstrators and forms competitors, Ed had had made available a special room where they could rehearse. In the room surveying the talent was Sensei Oshima, direct descendent of Funakoshi. Accompanying Sensei, Oshima was his highest ranking black belt, Caylor Atkins, a legend in his own right, who told me this story. At the time, neither Oshima nor Caylor had ever heard of Bruce Lee, nor had just about anyone else in the auditorium. Only Ed Parker knew of Bruce's economy of motion, speed, and power that were so incredibly unbelievable. Oshima and Atkins were standing in the center of the room when Oshima's eyes fastened on a handsome young man. As Bruce walked past, Oshima pointed his finger and said, "That one.. He is the only one here who can do anything"! Without having before ever seen Bruce Lee, Oshima was able to sense the young man’s ability simply by the way he carried his body. My friends, this was in 1964. Jeet Kune Do, as such, had not yet been invented.

Shortly before Bruce has left Hong Kong, he and Hawkins went to train with an old man who had mastered a number of gung fu styles. Although Bruce was only nineteen when he left Hong Kong he had already developed himself as a martial artist and a fighter. In Seattle, he would go on to train with an old man who had belonged to a Chinese ballet troupe (gung fu) and, who would take on all challengers whenever the troupe had entered a new town. The old man, among his other skills, was a Master of Red Boat Wing Chun. Bruce was already quite extraordinary. At 135 lbs., he could easily handle a 225 lb., U.S. Army Heavy Weight Boxing Champion/street fighter, not to mention the other four boxers in the original Seattle group, and the three judoka, one of which was a U.S. Judo Champion, Charlie Woo.

However, it was not Bruce the fighter that I feel is so much underestimated, rather Bruce the martial artist. Bruce has been underestimated because the level of his knowledge has been underestimated. Whatever people think JKD is all about, I can assure them that Bruce had his personal JKD that consisted of a lot more than strong side forward, straight lead, straight blast, some footwork, kicking, timing, etc. A lot more, indeed! In the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, page 24, is one of my favorite sentences: “It is not difficult to trim and hack off the non-essentials in outward physical structure; however, to shun away, to minimize inwardly is another matter. “Inwardly,” wrote Bruce. For a great deal of his personal training was to dig deep within himself. It was not technique that mattered, but how the tools, themselves, worked in relation to the body’s structure. To dig this deep he had to feel, explore, and analyze. He had to turn his study within to best learn how to maximize forces without resorting to using muscular strength. He taught himself how to use the short arcs of the joints, tendons, and bones for maximizing power. He eliminated intention in his initial movement, because with it he would not be as fast. He eliminated choice reaction, because it not only hamper his speed, but sacrificed the all-important beat in his timing. Instead, he would make his opponent make the choices. This was the foundation for what he called his “Fistic Law,” a worthwhile study unto itself. Bruce had gone within to study how to eliminate tension. Tension at the wrong time could become a dangerous tool for the opponent to use against you. A tense arm, shoulder, or body could act like a handle on a t-cup, giving the opponent a tool to disrupt you. Bruce’s way was to not create a handle within himself, but instead create the tool in his opponent.

[Rafael]

How often have I heard knowledgeable martial artists and even kinesologists attribute Bruce Lee’s amazing speed to having superior genetics, claiming that he must have been born rich with the right kind of muscle fibres. The reality is that nothing could be further from the truth. To be sure, Bruce Lee was faster than thought. Aside from the fact that he was in a trained state of physical condition, his lightning speed was not the result of the proportion of genetically prescribed, different types of muscle fibers. Rather, his speed was the direct result of unique martial principles and mechanics, heightened by his own internal discoveries. In the scene with the young monk in Enter the Dragon, Bruce slaps him on the forehead, telling him to feel or he will miss all of that heavenly glory. Hawkins Cheung likes to call Bruce, "The fastest gun fighter". Before Bruce came to the U.S. he was already greased lightning. Consider that there are four kinds of speed: start speed, body speed, hand speed, and reaction speed. Bruce's greatest speed was his start speed. Incredibly, it is the start speed where others are slow. Start speed is how fast can you move from zero. In Enter the Dragon Bruce demonstrates his start speed in the scene with O'hara (Bob Wall). The editor who cut the film watched the scene over and over again and was not able to detect the beginning of Bruce's movement. It was as though Bruce had finished without ever having started. He was just there! Bruce had fast hands and fast reaction speed, but not the fastest by his own estimation. His fast hands were once again the result of proper principles and mechanics, while his reaction speed was largely based on his ability to read his opponent's intention. Joe Lewis has said that Bruce was the fastest man that ever stood before him. After over 41 years in martial arts, I attest to the same.

Shortly before Bruce's death, Bruce and his old friend, Hawkins were able to spend some time together. Of course, every second was dedicated to their love of fighting. As he had done before, Bruce updated Hawkins on his own development. Finally, Hawkins asked him exactly what was JKD? Bruce smiled and said, "Pak sao and hip". Pak sao and hip! That was Bruce's own definition of Jeet Kune Do to his close friend and long time training partner, speaking in Cantonese, and at a mutually very high level that few could arise to, or even begin to understand.

So then, what is pak sao? Translated, pak sao means "slapping hand". However, pak doesn't really slap, at all. In reality, the technique of pak sao involves a great deal of information learned by close attention to details. Be sure, pak and slap do not share the same energies, nor even the same results. You may execute a slap, but not Bruce. His was pak! Nevertheless, pak sao has still another meaning in wing chun. It's in the nature of the meaning whereby Bruce spoke when he defined Jeet Kune Do as, "pak sao and hip". Pak sao's nature is to intercept. Thus, the name Jeet Kune Do, The Way of the Intercepting Fist. Actually, there are only three ways to intercept. Ahead of the opponent's beat, at the same time as his beat, or behind his beat. We call this a half-beat ahead, same beat, or half- beat behind. To go a half-beat ahead is to go at his intention, before he actually fires his muscles. In pak sao it means to cut off his movement. It means to SHUT HIM DOWN! Translated, Jeet also means "to cut off". This cutting off was Bruce Lee's #1 specialty. Bruce could shut you down before you could go. You couldn't start because he already hit at the very instant you intended to start. To go at the same beat as your opponent is to start at the same time. The interception takes place in the area generally half-way between you and the opponent, a little ahead or behind depending on the speed differences between you. This is a good time to avoid, intersect, jam, dissolve, disrupt. To go a half-beat behind is good for slipping, countering, and going to a takedown. All are within the concept of pak sao. The Five Ways of Attack are based on these three timings. To go between the beats is to go behind one beat and head of the other. Bruce said, "pak sao and hip". So what exactly did he mean by hip? It is the action of the hip and all mechanics that effect it based on a unique set of principles learned and studied in Wing Chun. People have said that Bruce Lee abandoned his Wing Chun. They say this simply because they are not able to see the Wing Chun inside his Jeet Kune Do. Nevertheless, the Wing Chun is there. And, it could be felt! Bruce's Wing Chun was in its principles and mechanics that were at the beginning and in the final end of his punch, kick, trap, jam, or whatever. It was the way his body worked as a unit, externally and internally. It was at the very core of all that he did. It is how he hit so fast, so hard. It was why he could shut down and overpower bigger and stronger men with relative ease. It was why his traps worked when so many others claim that trapping does not work. Ask James DeMille, the heavy weight boxer whether or not Bruce’s trapping worked. You may have all seen the photograph of Bruce doing an isometric exercise on the Smith machine where it appears that he was strengthening his forearms and biceps. In actuality, Bruce was training the structure of his hip. It was because of this structure of the hip that he could raise huge dumbbells straight out in front of him like no weightlifter could possibly dream of doing. Bruce modified his Wing Chun stance to the Jun Fan stance, and then to the Jeet Kune Do stance, yet all shared the same hip structure for applying huge forces with minimal effort, and with only the slightest adjustments. For the JKD'r who has not trained the hip structure, he can never hope to achieve the same efficiency rating as did Bruce, when using his methodology.

Bruce's start speed came from “Non-intention,” as he called it. Non-intention is NOT the same as non-telegraph. I am always amazed at how Bruce came to figure out non-intention whose origin came from Wing Chun. However, Bruce took Non-intention to another level. Bruce would often demonstrate incredible feats of strength, power, and speed based on nothing more than mere mechanical advantages. So incredible were the performances that onlookers could only doubt their authenticity. The truth is that these extraordinary feats can be performed by almost anyone, aside from two finger pushups and some his abdominal feats, but those too with practice.

At the core of Bruce's art, is what I refer to as his inner game. This is the part that you don’t see, but it’s the part that makes everything work as well as it does. It involves, among other things, how structure can work in two separate modes, independently or together. The first mode is the Physical Structure, the hip and tools. Second is what I call the Vital Structure. It is when the Physical Structure is compromised that the Vital Structure must take over.

Bruce researched every avenue for improving himself. He also had the faculty to explore his own kinesthetic awareness. In other words, he took the time to feel and analyze what he felt. He not only looked to the outside, but he dared look to the inside where he reached not only for answers, but for the very questions, themselves. And what came out of all of this was truly stunning. Bruce had developed more than a martial art. He developed extraordinary means and certainties by which an average person could aspire to and reach a true level of mastery. One last thing, to learn to get to his personal truth, Bruce did not have to compete in the ring. He did it on rooftops and in the street.
[

for more articles like this go to

CHIHAND MARTIAL ARTS - An Affiliate of 'Little Dragons Alliance.'
Website/Discussion Forum - http://chihand.com


RF-

[chen zhen]

Nice and informative article, Rafael

[HuangKaiVun]

Make no mistake - a lot of Bruce Lee's quickness was genetic in nature.

You can't TEACH that type of explosiveness. I teach violin (lots of the same skills as kung fu) and people either have that explosiveness or they don't.

That said, I can name no less than 10 Chinese guys I know in real life that have that kind of quickness - myself being one of them. It's not that I'm so extraordinary, it's that Bruce Lee's excellent quickness is common in the Chinese (particularly those of Southern descent like me).

I can SEE from films that Bruce Lee had a whole different art to him that very few people knew about. You can see from his breath control and coiled step that his TRUE martial art was not displayed in movie fight scenes.

When I think of Lee, I think of a guy with chin tucked in to cover his larynx who jabs and grapples like a mixed martial artist today. He was obviously an EXTREMELY aggressive fighter.

[Ryu]

Ryu: (pointing down below) See? They're talking about you again.

Bruce: They do that a lot, don't they?

Ryu: Make you feel special?

Bruce: Well, not really. Maybe a little uncomfortable, man!

Ryu: I liked the last posts from that website. Pretty cool, don't ya think?

Bruce: (taking a sip of a mixed fruit juice.) Yeah it was flattering you know? But man, people talk about me too much.

Ryu: (rolling his eyes) Whatever, don't act like you don't enjoy it.

Bruce: Guess it keeps me alive in some strange way... :)

Ryu: You did a lot with your life. You should rest happy. I don't think anyone's going to forget the name "Bruce Lee." That was your ultimate goal wasn't it?

Bruce: (laughs) Maybe. But hey, there's nobody out there that can't do the same, you know? Hey! You want another juice, man? A cola or something?

Ryu: Yeah thanks! Juice is fine. This thread will probably start up again soon anyway. Good thing we've got good seats!

.......................




(before anyone takes offense for whatever reason.... I always do this on the main board. No disrespect for the dead....on the contrary, this is how I give my utmost respect.)

Ryu

[chen zhen]

I found this hawkings Cheungs ( mentioned in the article above) website, he has an article on it, where he says that Bruce's biggest weakness in WC was, that in when doing chi sao with him, he would expand his arms towards Hawkins, and then that was easily countered by pulling his arms down and off-balance, because he had a weak lower-body (bad rooting). I dont know if it is correctly quoted, you can read it for yourselves. www.hawkinscheung.com

just something for the BL-bashers, especially WC-ers:D

[HuangKaiVun]

Hawkins Cheung is an excellent Wing Chun stylist, but he's no match for Lee as a pure fighter.

Cheung might prevail (if lucky) in chi sao, which is NOT a real fighting situation and is just a drill. Even in chi sao, I'd rather face Cheung than Lee (who on video has SUBLIME chi sao) anyday.

Just because a guy doesn't have a root doesn't mean he can't fight. Bruce Lee was extremely quick on his feet and was very hard to catch. He hit hard by putting the momentum of his entire body behind his strikes, yet it was hard to hit him because he was clearly extremely slippery.

Definitely in a streetfight I'd rather fight Cheung than Lee. No matter how good I became at kung fu, a guy with as much killer instinct and trained reflex as Lee can HURT ME no matter what the outcome is.

[chen zhen]

Yes, I agree with all that you say HKV, I just wandered what the WC people would say about Bruce doing 'bad' chi sao.

[chen zhen]

Yes, I agree with all that you say HKV, I just wandered what the WC people would say about Bruce doing 'bad' chi sao.

[chen zhen]

WTF?!

[HuangKaiVun]

Of the WC people I've seen who think Lee does "bad" chi sao, I will tell you that 100% of them would get HAMMERED by Lee in a chi sao confrontation.

The lesser the ability, the greater the arrogance.

[chen zhen]

True, true. (I have no experience whatsoever myself, I shouldn't be saying that:D )

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Rafael

That was longest bunch of posts I've ever seen on any thread. I only want to comment on one part though. The part about the Wong Jack Man fight. By all indications (and none of these include Linda Lee's story since she's just trying to make lots of $$) there was no decisive victor in the fight. David Chin (witness) says this in his recent article in KF Magazine, Bill Chen (witness) a Tai Chi master who was Wong's friend said this in the infamous Black Belt article on this subject, and MA promoter Ming Lum who knew both men has voiced his doubts that Bruce Lee beat Wong into submission on the ground.

As David Chin says in his article, Wong tripped onto a window showcase that was propped up on the wall and Bruce jumped on him. Whetever punches Bruce let fly were either blocked or ineffectual because he couldn't get full mount. the fight was then halted by somebody calling out for them to stop. All witnesses who count have said that there were no injuries on Wong besides a scratch above his eye (received after Bruce deceived him during the handshake).

It just doesn't make any sense. Bruce changes his whole style after it took him too long to win!!?? I'm sorry but that has always sounded like a bunch of horse dung to me. Has there ever been any UFC fighter who changed his style of fighting after the fight went into three rounds? Did "the Beast" Bob Sapp change his "beast" style after that long-ass Pride fight with Kimo?

Let's face it all of you BL fans who compare him to Ultraman, the fight was a DRAW. This is further proven by Bruce's wanting to have a rematch with Wong in ten years. That might even indicate that Bruce regognized Wong as being the better fighter. Since when have you ever heard of Bruce Lee agreeing to or wanting a rematch with anyone? I'm not saying Bruce wasn't good, but it's well known that he was c0cky. A rematch against someone he considered himself superior to would not be his style. If you asked me, it sounds like Wong Jack Man was toying with Bruce. He didn't use any of his kicks and he mainly fought defensively.