calling all parks pa-kua chang schools

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

anybody go to the school or affiliated schools?

anyone going to the pakua tournament that does?

anyone fighting?

i need sponsorship, particularly under glen moore. thats why i asked.

ma

[blacktaoist]

Ma_Xu_Zha

anyone fighting?

From What I hear Park people don't compete at tournaments, Most of them claim their techniques are to dangerous, or Park just don't want them to compete at all.

But I have seen a few of his people compete at a few of Yee's Hung Gu tournaments in New Jersey in Forms competition. These guys were from that New Jersey school.

But I never seen them do any Ba Gua Zhang within a internal form competition, or fighting in a tournament event.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

i already know that, just want to rally up some people from there and build a offical team and so I will talk to glen moore about it.

represent represent

ma

[blacktaoist]

i already know that, just want to rally up some people from there and build a offical team and so I will talk to glen moore about it.

That's cool, I like to see some of Parks Ba Gua Zhang people fight.

[blkbelt65]

I've always read on these boards that Parks people can't fight? Not my statement, like I said, I read it. Never heard anything good about Mr. Moore's fighting skills either.

I did train at the school in Richmond VA. for over 2 years- directly with Bok Nam Park .....well....when he was around anyway.

Training was very expensive and he was usually somewhere else giving a seminar to others rather then his direct students. Needless to say that got old & very dissappointing.

Does anyone else have any direct experience with park or his people, if so I'd like to hear it.

[TaoBoxer]

be very VERY suspicious.........

[blkbelt65]

Well, you might as well of said nothingl. What are your thoughts? Any direct association with the group? Please expand...Thx

[Raiden]

I am also curious as to the meaning of that statement. Are you saying Park's school is all show and no substance?

Anybody else with personal experience of Park's school have opinions?

I'm interested in hearing them.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

his school is very good and so is glen moore.

when i went about 7 years agao i didnt really appreciate my experience but looking back it was very good and traditional.

at the time i was younger and to energetic and wanted to learn everything. what i did learn there has gone a long ways.

what is taught is very effective for fighting and now that i have moved on it is very useful information.

it was bitter lessons, now it taste sweet. alot of basics, but your only as good as your basics. its up to the individual, not the instructor or school on how much you want to develope your kung fu through hard work.

ma

[Raiden]

Thanks for the input MA.

To any of Park's students........
Does anyone know Glenn Wright? He's the only guy within a 300 mile radius of me that teaches Pa Kua. I just can't get the guy to call me back. I 've even put a letter in the mail to him.

Is he not teaching these days, or is it an "old school" kinda thing where I have to keep trying for several months before he calls back? I've heard that some sifus literally make you wait on their doorstep for a long time before accepting you.

I don't wanna end up in cell for stalking the guy !!! :D

[blkbelt65]

I know that when I attended the school a few years back Glen was only there at night and I trained during the day so I never had a chance to meet him. Have you tried calling in the evening?

I've also read post by ...I think....blacktaoist that Moore's skills are quite lacking. Again, I don't know, just what I've read here by people who have met him.

Where are you located?

Good luck.

[Raiden]

I'm in Tennessee, about 2 hours east of Nashville. The guy I'm talkin about is Glenn Wright. I believe he's a senior Student of Park's since the 70's.

Not sure, but I think we're talkin bout different people.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

the only grounds blacktaoist has to make such a statement is if he has had an actual combat experience with glen.

he probably hasnt so he makes an inappropriate statement.
dont believe everything you read.


you cannot judge ones ability by watching a form, like taiji it looks slow or whatever, but there is power inside. parks forms are not like swimming body with coiling and special wrapping and showy, they are no nonsense in execution.

parks techniques are quite powerful than any kung fu school i have attended (6 schools in all). they have a shock value and should not be used on someone. however all schools should promote competition amoung the students to test their abilites in a martial community setting as to demonstrate skill and effectiveness of their art.

i have also encountered many pakua seminars and have not come across the same methods of power development also.

[blacktaoist]

I've also read post by ...I think....blacktaoist that Moore's skills are quite lacking.


What I said was, I seen him on that fendamental of Ba Gua Zhang instructional video. And From the footage of Mr. Moore, Its my opinion the man needs to work on his coordination and needs to do some conditioning training.

[blacktaoist]

i have also encountered many pakua seminars and have not come across the same methods of power development also.

So you are saying Parks method is the most powerful out here. If you think that. Then you have a hell of a long way to go in traditional Ba Gua Zhang palm training methods.


he probably hasnt so he makes an inappropriate statement.

I never crosshands with any of Parks top students, But I don't see myself having and kind of difficulty beating them if I was to spar and of them.

[blacktaoist]

By the way Ma_Xu_Zha, The palm striking exercises you guys do are not of any Yin Style system that I know of. After all park claims his style is Yin Style. Park palm drills are alright, But you never develop Real internal power. A real Ba Gua Zhang practitioner striking force can't be seen, even when practicing their palm striking exercises. Traditional Ba Gua Zhang palm striking methods are metaphysical training methods. (advanced energy practice) not basic palm exercises as park is teaching.

For one, most Yin style systems have a 64 open palm sequence. These open palm forms give training in extending energy to the palms and finger tips. So there is no real need for the kind of external palm striking training as Park method is doing.

[blkbelt65]

Very very true. Park does teach it that way and it doesn't train you to issue real energy properly.

[razakdigital]

Ma.

you cannot judge ones ability by watching a form, like taiji it looks slow or whatever, but there is power inside. parks forms are not like swimming body with coiling and special wrapping and showy, they are no nonsense in execution.

You can make some judgments on someone forms - especially pa kua. How do you practice? You practice with forms for coordination, speed, power, and physical memorization. There is nothing wrong with anybody making opinions on practitioners if they can sustain sensible information concerning their statement.

i have also encountered many pakua seminars and have not come across the same methods of power development also

Just out of curiosity (not in to challenge or debate you but for my own edification) What pa kua seminars did you attend? Who were the teachers? Could you provide this info?

[maoshan]

Ma_Xu_Zha

What do you mean by your statement:
parks techniques are quite powerful than any kung fu school i have attended.

Also, Who were these instructors? Not to diss you but I have to question your experiance in Ba-Gua. Based on the methods shown on those videos, they were basic at best as the per the title. But those tapes are old now. Higher methods of power deveopment should be in circulation by now among the general populance. Hopefully some of parks people will show up at the all Ba-Gua tournament and demonstrate what your talking about.

Maoshan

[Raiden]

Very very true. Park does teach it that way and it doesn't train you to issue real energy properly.

Does Park teach this to the advanced students only? Or does he teach it at all? I don't have experience in bagua (yet), but I would think internal power is integral to the process.

Just outta curiosity, does anyone know who PArk has designated as his lineage disciples? Surely they should have the ability to generate real power.

[blkbelt65]

I would assume that Glen Moore would be the guy. From what I was told he's his Ranking...(haha, ranking) student currently. When I trained there it was with a student that had been learning DIRECTLY from Park amny days a week for 3 years and his power just wasn't there with the training he was being given....

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

This is my reply to bt, maoshan and bblt65.

watching parks video does not do justice to seeing what type of power he is generating. there are alot of mechanics involved in his methods of issuing power.

It is called the method of lu shuai tien, who studied in china with several lineages. it is not claimed to be anything yin fu, but some aspects are said to RESEMBLE that of yin fu style when researching the orgin. thats for historical purposed and i am not a historian i am a martial artist and i will train and not waste my time looking into orgins of something that they cant determin where pakua came from.

glen moore is an excellent student and instructior. anyone who claims to be a mastetr and stops learning is not a true teacher. Glen is humble and a true martial artist in the sense of loyalty, progression and evolving and deep research into pakua. I respect the man and he will never waste his time online listening to useless debates for bama "a" from bagua school "c" or bagua backstreet boy "k" from baua school "f".

the purpose of the board and orginal purpose of the message has been lost, but that doesnt mean the method and art of my pakua school is invalid or weak. obviously if yu believe it it is real, the method of fajing i have come across are valid and powerful. the other bagua school i have been to doesnt matter. you dont know or heard of those people anyways in va.

its all about practicing a little bit real deeply, not knowing alot and done badly. it takes patience, practice and a good mind to grasp the depth of wushu "war arts" especially pakua, so I will stick with what i know to be valid after meeting many pakua teachers. I am very ecentric and look for the best. i havent been to ny for a while so i dont know what is happening there. thats why i want to see this pakua tournament.

hope to see you there i make it, there is a good chance i will.

[maoshan]

Ma_Xu_Zha,

I’m only going to address this because after all this time of reading what you have to say on topics that you obviously have little knowledge of, you need to know some things. First I’m going to address what you wrote.

(Watching parks video does not do justice to seeing what type of power he is generating).

To the untrained eye your right, but as you yourself admit you know little.

(It is called the method of lu shuai tien, who studied in china with several lineages.)

Where did you get this info? According to the books, he was supposed to have learned from Yin Fu. No mention of other Sifu’s was ever stated. In fact it was from only the Yin Family that it was confirmed that he Knew Ba-Gua. Your fabricating things.

(it is not claimed to be anything yin fu, but some aspects are said to RESEMBLE that of yin fu style when researching the orgin)

Again, were did you get this Info? Lu is not in the records of anybody other than Yin Fu, so the methods should be of Yin Fu. I’ve studied with 3 different branches of the Yin system and researched others, and I saw only one method that resembled Yin style,
The rest was Cheng.

(thats for historical purposed and i am not a historian i am a martial artist and i will train and not waste my time looking into orgins of something that they cant determin where pakua came from.)

I’m both. The history and technique both intrigue me equally. To master the art is my goal in life. Now as far as the history goes that’s apart of researching and authenticating what it is I’m learning. There are to many fakes running around making grand claims. I can determine a lot from my research.

(obviously if yu believe it it is real, the method of fajing i have come across are valid and powerful. the other bagua school i have been to doesnt matter. you dont know or heard of those people anyways in va.)

You’d be surprised to know whom I know. You’re evading the question.

(its all about practicing a little bit real deeply, not knowing alot and done badly. it takes patience, practice and a good mind to grasp the depth of wushu "war arts" especially pakua,

What you say here is very very true, but think you got that from a book.

(so I will stick with what i know to be valid after meeting many pakua teachers

So are you saying that Sifu Park is the end all be all of Ba-Gua?
Please come to the Tournament so that you can see the difference. You have been seriously misled to come to the conclusions that you have. The Instructors that you have met are just that Instructors and not that good either. Get off the Internet and get some real experience. The fact that you are on line here professing to know what you’re talking about and you don’t. Is the reason most of the good teachers don’t post. You argue with invalid facts and try to pass them off as truth. Come to the Tournament please. Come learn something.

Maoshan

[razakdigital]

Hey blkbelt65,

You had me thinking - since I've been on this board for some time now I notied that Gleen Moore is mention all the time and Glen Wright is barely mention. Since he is or was (I dont know) Park's senior student why isn't he mention more frequently? From your experience have you noticed that? Also it seems that he is the only senior student (or student) that fought in competition. (If I'm wrong someone please enlighten me.)

Also did you feel that their method of training is realistic?

Ma,

Regardless of the debate that you are having on this forum - I do commend you for trying to get a team together for Maoshan tournament. Many people in the Pakua world are curious about the skills the Park's students. That is a fact... This would be a good chance to for them help break the image of Park's school being like a McDonald's franchise or a Tiger Schulmann's Karate franchise. I've had some experiences with Park's school so it would be interesting to see them represent represent as you stated previously.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

you have some serious friendly fire my friend.

first off ......lets talk reasonably without emotional personal attacks and abide on a level of wisdom for a moment to reach clarity on the subject of bagua/pakua.

i am not going to be an pakua authority,, but i will use humbleness always. The claim to KNOW pakua is not my league, nor do i have the balls to try to be something i am not (pakua authority)

i know who I am and thats a pure neija student (of 12 years and going, no karate or anything), of course I can learn alot at a baugua tournament, thats why i want to go, but i have a good mind to judge what i know to be useful and useless in my training syllabas.

I find parks methods useful, it makes up a good portion of my pakua training. therefore its not a end all, but a fundamental aspect.

as for being online...that about an hour a week vs 14 hour class time training, not including training at home or in forest.

lu shui tien studied with li ching wu his primary teacher, he did train in some yin fu style with yin fu son in law; he chin keui.

park does not state that it is yin fu. it really doesnt matter, like tai chi pakua is based on principles, i really dont care of its history like i stated before, its practicing that does matter to me.

i dont fabricate anything, and what i know comes from experience not books. gleen moore is in va, other glenn wright is like on west coast somewhere.

we are all brothers of the same art but with different shades.

i am not a politician nor historian.



ma

[Brad]

Man, I just realized I spend waaaayyy to much time online, lol. Anyway, I'll tell my teacher about the Bagua tournement too when I get a chance. We've only got 3 people learning Bagua(still beginers-our school is young) but they might be interested in seeing what else is out there. It's kind of isolated here in Ohio :D

[maoshan]

Ma_Xu_Zha

First, You Claimed to be ( if not in word then in deed) an authority
on parks Ba-Gua by what you posted.

(I find parks methods useful, it makes up a good portion of my pakua training.)

There's no augument there. FOR YOU it's all good. But what you said leads one to believe that he is "the end all be all" of Ba-Gua.
Read what you posted.

(lu shui tien studied with li ching wu his primary teacher, he did train in some yin fu style with yin fu son in law; he chin keui.)

This statement does not coinside with the known story. Sifu Park is suppose to be teaching Yin Style Ba-Gua. Lu Shui Tien was a student of Yin Fu not He Jin Kui. Li Ching Wu is not known in any Lineage. Unless he's known by another name, it's supect.


(park does not state that it is yin fu. it really doesnt matter, like tai chi pakua is based on principles, i really dont care of its history like i stated before, its practicing that does matter to me.)


He may not have mentioned it in either the videos or the books, but it has been known for some time now that he claims to be the closed door disiple of Lu who was a student of Yin Fu. The name of Li showed up in the book. (after the fact). Most Ba-Gua people know the Lineage of thier style. If it was not Yin Fu Than why say it is. There was no mention of Li being Lu's primarary teacher. Again a problem.
As for the piont on the principles I agree, but as far as the history goes, How do you know that your technique is correct? Using it on none and low level Martial Artist is no proof. Indeph Research
is the only way to know. It's like a new MA with no prior experiance what so ever seeing a Iron Palm demo where the exponent breacks a few bricks and the new MA thinks this the best thing they ever saw and the exponent plays on the Ma's ignorance and has him thinking that he's the best and he can teach him to be the best as well. Now they gain this ablility. they think they've got it all , Until they meet ( not a master) but a high level practitioner who can drop you to your knees with a light touch. Rude awakening Hah?
"Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice Makes perfect."
How do you know what your doing if you have nothing to compare it with? This isn't 1802 when communication was not as it is now. I disagree with your point of view.

I have nothing against you Ma, I'm just pointing things out your either not paying attention to or choose not to. Either way it's your call. Your post are the opposit of what you claim to be.
Reread them and think about it.
Other than that, hope to see at the tournament.

Peace

Maoshan

[blkbelt65]

What's up man,

You are truly right about that.......Glen Wright is barely mentioned, EVER. And yes, he has competed in full contact with BaGua. I've heard Glen Wright is good. Never met Moore and never heard anything good on this board about him for that matter.

The methods "may" have been good but for the amount of time(2 years) I got to spend with Park I wouldn't know. It was more than 100 bucks a month and for a Teacher that was hardly ever there, that's way too much cash! He was always off at some seminar somwhere in the world, OTHER than at his own school. The guy at the school I trained was there for 3.5 years before I got there and he sucked...... I went on to train and the teach Moy Yats Wing Chun and currently study hsing-I.

Peace.......

[looking_up]

FYI:

From:

http://www.pa-kua.com/park.htm

"As a testament to his authenticity, Park Bok-Nam's name appears on a stele that was erected at the burial site of Dong Hai-Chuan* in China (see picture at right), formally documenting him as a true sixth generation lineage disciple. We are aware of no other Pa Kua practitioner in the U.S. that has this distinction. "

I just wanted to throw this out there, I don't have an opinion on
the subect (whether Park's students can represent bagua), really.

I might also add that master Park sounds like a very traditional teacher.
His site says that he was born in 1942. Very few of you out there
know what it is like to deal with a Korean man of this age,
because most of us were born in the states. I can speak from
experience that there is a lot of room for confusion, frustration,
misunderstanding based on this fact. The site says that master
Park came to the states in 1987. That means that he was 45
years old at the time, which makes it understandable if he hasn't
assimilated completely into American culture/cultural
expectations.

None of this means that master Park is the right/wrong teacher
for you. I just hope that this helps to explain where he is
coming from.

I've never trained with him, so this is just my take on what could
be going on.

Peace - please

[blkbelt65]

Ma_Xu_Zha ........Do you train with Park directly? If so, how long have you been directly learning from him?

[blkbelt65]

Do you train with Park directly? If so, how long have you been directly learning from him?

[razakdigital]

What's up blkbelt65

Could you tell us how was a regular day in Parks school? What kind of training did you get there? What was last straw for you when you said you had enough?

[kyle]

Hi

Here is different perspective.


From the book" Fundamentals of Pa Kua Chang" by Park Boc Nam and Dan Miller.

Page 10

"The Pa kua chang instructor Lu Shui Tien found was Li Chin-Wu(1864,?).
When Lu met Li and began the study of Pa Kua Chang,he was still a teenager.Li did not live in Chin Tao but in a town wich was about a two day ride by horse norh of Chin Tao.
Lu Shui-Tien would frequently make the two day journey to his teacher town to study."

"Not much is known about Li Chin-Wu himself,Park Boc Nam does knot know who Li's teacher was,however,Lu did tell him that Li only had 10 Pa kua students .
Li students kept to themselves and thus the Pa Kua Chang as taught by Li Ching-Wu was not widely spread."

Page 12

"After Li Chin-Wu died ,Lu Shui Tien sought out another Pa Kua Instructor and subsequently studied with fourth generation practitioner in Tung Hai-Chuan lineage.

Lu told Park that he felt his first teacher ,Li Chin-Wu,taught a more complete ma system than his second teacher because it combined straight line methods with the circle walking forms and maneuvers.

Park does not know the name of Lu's second teacher.
He states that Lu seldom spoke of his own background.Whenever Park would ask a question that related to Lu's background Lu's response was "that question will not help your practice".
Park also states that he was not particulary interested in his teacher's background . He knew that his teacher was good at martial arts and so he was not concern about where it came from.

Park says that one reason his teacher did not like to tell stories about himself or other MA was because these stories always get blown out of proportion.
Lu felt that if a student hears to many fantastic stories about martial arts ability, they will have an unrealistic sense of what can be accomplished and will aim for unrealistic goals.
Foccusing on unrealistic goals will take the student's mind off of the fundamental training methods wich develop real skill''

"Today the name Lu Shui-Tien is well known among the practitioners of the Yin Fu lineage.
They know he was from Chin Taoand and that he have left the country during the japanese war.

Several of the practitioners mentioned that they thought Lu Shui-Tien's second teacher had studied with Yin Fu's son-in- law,He Chin-Kuei.
While this has not being confirmed,it will make sense that one or both of Lu's teachers were of the Yin Fu lineage because much of the Pa Kua Chang that he taught is very characteristic of the Yin Fu Style
.
Park's teacher did tell him that his second Pa Kua instructor's Pa Kua method only contained practice wich was based on circle walking .
Lu felt that the straight line practice and directional footwork training he received from his first teacher was very beneficial in the development of fighting skill.

Park also assumes that his teacher shared Pa Kua knowledge with many of his martial arts contemporaries as Lu traveled widely and enjoy visiting other MA where ever he went.
Park also states that Lu also practiced and refined his skills everyday with a band of gerrilla fighters he ran with during the japanese war."



Ok,back to practice.

[Guandi]

dear maoshan

>According to the books, he was supposed to have learned from Yin Fu.

>He may not have mentioned it in either the videos or the books,
>but it has been known for some time now that he claims to be the
>closed door disiple of Lu who was a student of Yin Fu.

so where do you get your information from? in your first message you said, that is is from the books and in the second you said "it may not be from the books" :-)

it is definitively not from the books. Do you know where you get your information from or is this just some kind of nebulous statement?

Guandi

[blkbelt65]

A regular day for me might have different than for the others because I trained during the day....just me and Park...when he was around anyway!:mad:

Training was just walking the circle in static postures. Don't get me wrong, I was only there 2 years and I have no problem with the basics.

And Lots of freakin meditating....which I can easily do at home. I don't believe that Money and Time should be spent sitting in a room ALONE meditating. That's not what "class" is about. Hell, there's no reason to go all the way to the school and pay all that money to sit alone in a room and breathe....

My problem is that being that I was there during the day and one of his more "senior" students that would show up now and then sucked! The last straw you ask.... He was never around and I didn't have some bag o' money at my disposal to keep shellin out to the man.

later Raz.........

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

i havent been around park or the school in over 6 years. i just know what it useful from my experience there. there are 3 tuitions you can pay- i paid the second best one for 100 a month that way you can spend more time there and i did. it was worth it. park was not always there but he kept record of every student and what they learned. he respects students that train hard, dont talk and think deep on what taught, or practice other martial arts.

i got chewed out for doing sun taiji there once.

he has 14 warm-ups
a dozen stretching techniques that are really good
palm methods
pakua body exercise
foot work
chi kung
meditation
circle walking
3 traditional kung fu forms like chang chuan, ba gi
long weapon
broadsword
straight sword
pole walking
two person drills

a complete system to me that would take a lifetime to master.

[blacktaoist]

The Pa kua chang instructor Lu Shui Tien found was Li Chin-Wu(1864,?).

Ok. Lets keep $hit real here. For one there is no Li Chin Wu in any of the Ba Gua Zhang lineage. The man is a Myth.

Two if This Li Chin Wu guy was real, How come Park Bok Nam own Ba Gua Zhang teacher Lu Shui Tien don't even know when his Ba Gua teacher died?Chin-Wu(1864,?). But yet Park Bok Nam teacher claims here in this statement:


"After Li Chin-Wu died ,Lu Shui Tien sought out another Pa Kua Instructor and subsequently studied with fourth generation practitioner in Tung Hai-Chuan lineage.


The bottom line Mr. Park Bok Nam whole lineage story is very inaccurate. three are a lot of bull$hit in his story. And I know when Maoshan see this one he is going to kill this story by exploding the myths of this Bull$hit lineage story.

A lot of you guys need to open up your eyes, There is no fact or truth in any of Parks above statement. how can Park teacher claim to have studied with a fourth generation practitioner in Tung Hai-Chuan lineage, But don't even know the teachers name or even when thissought out another Pa Kua Instructor guy died. $hit Park teacher claims not to know even when his first teacher died. but in his book he claims:


After Li Chin-Wu died ,Lu Shui Tien sought out another Pa Kua Instructor

From the above statement you see, that Park teacher had to know when his techer died. But they claim they don't know. This looks very faulty in logic.

The Bottom line is, The Ba Gua Zhang lineage of Tung Hai Ch'uan and his top students is well recorded, and this Li Chin-Wu is not. :o

If you are going to reply with a post, reply with a post that is conforming to fact and truth.

You can fool some of the people, some of the time, but you can't fool some of the people all of the time.

[Spirit Writer]

The whole lineage thing is silly. I couldn't tell you when my grandfather died. I was alive, went to the funeral, but I was young and could only say it was in the early '80s. Also, just because something is not well recorded, does not mean it is or was not so.
I agree with you, there is a lot of phony-ballony out there. But in the end, who cares. If you study with park, you're studying from park, not from his teachers. If the info being taught is good, who cares where it comes from. Also, blackbelt, unfortunately, that's the way it goes many times when you train with a "name." There name keeps them out of the training hall, or in their back office counting your money. 'Tis life.

[blacktaoist]

Spirit Writer I agree with your statement about the lineage thing. Because I can care less about Park Bok Nam lineage, or what he is teaching. But if people are going to talk about Ba Gua Zhang old past masters and their lineage. Then My opinion is they should have post statements conforming to fact and truth, not post misleading and untrue information. All that do is show "stupidity"

[looking_up]

I shouldn't get involved in this discussion (any more than I have),
but the quest for truth is always interesting...

...can anyone verify/disprove that master Park's name is on that
tombstone (or whatever it is) at Dong Hai_Chuan's
grave/tomb/memorial? Wouldn't Bagua masters have freaked
about this if he does not really know bagua?

Thanks everyone.

[kyle]

BLACKTAOIST


"Man makes the truth,the truth does not make a man"

Confucio

I know you do not care about Park's lineage, but neither do I or him for that matter.

Read the post again,pay attention to your reading skills.

Where does it say that Lu Shui Tien DID NOT KNOW HIS SECOND TEACHER OR WHEN THE FIRST DIED.

It just states that he did not like to talk about his background or about other Martial Artist,read reason also.

You can call Lu shu Te,Lu's Son in Korea and find out.

What will you do if your teacher doesn't want to answer certain personal questions and yet he is willing to share his Pa Kua Skills with you?.
How do you know how much he knows,and how much is he willing to share with you?

Master Park told me that when Lu was alive because his teachings way he tought his teacher didn't like him much,after LU died , Park met other PK teachers and understood how deep Lu tought him.

Even from the "well known" lineages,it is impposible to know how much info Yin FU or Dong Hai Chuan or Cao passed on to his students or how much they mixed it with other arts.


So even if the principles and the expresion still looks unfamiliar to you,why denied it?,why not accept it as something different.
As long as people know why they do it and what is that for, it is ok.

Master Park told me,all Martial Arts are the same family and all Pa Kua people are brothers.

Now here, you can desagree with the training and teaching methods of this or that particular teacher,nothing wrong with that,but to question the background of a teacher with real skills without any logical basis or proof is not honorable sir.

unless....and hope not,

It is in your personal agenda and for unknown reasons to try to discredit Park and his school on this forum spreading false information.

and if this bias and descriminatory attitude toward your unknown brothers makes you happy,I trust the rest of the family in this forum view this matter with a more open mind.

breath in,breath out,relax,relax,relax.

[blacktaoist]

kYLE,

"A MENTAL SLAVE IS A GREATER VIMTIM OF BONDAGE THAN A PHYSICAL SLAVE" IF A MAN'S MIND IS SHACKLED THEN HOW CAN HE MAKE THE TRUTH".



It is in your personal agenda and for unknown reasons to try to discredit Park and his school on this forum spreading false information.

Park is doing a Great Job By himself, He don't need my help for that.





Now here, you can desagree with the training and teaching methods of this or that particular teacher,nothing wrong with that,but to question the background of a teacher with real skills without any logical basis or proof is not honorable sir.

First the all, park whole background is not conforming to fact or truth, so don't try to talk that logical Bull$hit crap to me. Like I said the frist time, I can care less what the hell Park is teaching, He's no Ba Gua Zhang Grand master in my eyes. I have met very high level real Ba Gua Zhang masters then Park Bok Nam.




What will you do if your teacher doesn't want to answer certain personal questions and yet he is willing to share his Pa Kua Skills with you?.

For one , I never had that problem, every Ba gua Zhang teacher I ever train with had no problem telling me who they learned from. The bottom line is Park is said to have train with his teacher for years and for him not to know who his teacher learn from in my Book is Bull$hit. If Park teacher was willing to share all his Ba Gua Zhang skills with him, then why not share everything with him. "INFORMATION"

The bottom line is Park statements in his book are not conforming to fact or truth. and any one with comprehension skills can see that.

[kyle]

Mental slavery?

Are you saying that if I were one of your loyal student you will consider me a mental slave?.

Welcome to the club Razac.

No hard feelings guys,relax and enjoy it.

see you at the tournament.

[maoshan]

Looking_ up

Sorry I haven’t responded sooner.
I’m about to put this whole thing to bed. I‘ve had enough.

First, The fact that Park is on the tomb can’t be disputed. But, why he’s on the tomb is another story all together.
To begin, Li Ching Wu Born in 1864 died? Lets look at that. According to his book, Park says that Lu Shui tien Learned from him for many years when he died. How is that he does not at least know the year that he past. Makes no since. Who did Li learn from? He’s acknowledged nowhere.
In fact, Let’s hypothesize this: Li was born in 1864. Dong Hai chuan Began to teach in Beijing about 1864 and taught only Shaolin outwardly until 1876 when he accepted Cheng Ting Hua. Dong died in 1882. Let’s give Li 20yrs,that would make it 1884.

He would have had to be one of the first students to have studied with one of the Big 4, In order of seniority: Yin Fu, Ma Wei Qi, Shi Ji Dong and, Cheng Ting Hua. His name would most definitely been mentioned If he had reached a high level.
But continuing in the first vein, how don’t you know when your teacher died.
Next, It is also mentioned in the book that after Li died, Lu sought out a teacher from the 4th generation of Dong’s lineage. First there’s only Dong Hai Chuan. No other Ba-Gua Exist out side of Him. Back to the point, He mentioned that he didn’t know who his second teacher was. How is that possible? And if that is true, how could he be on the tomb? How do you know your lineage? The Yin Family acknowledges Lu Shui Tien so they must know whom he was taught by. And it was not by He Jin Kui. My research shows that Lu’s instructor was Lu Shu Kui, He Jin Kui’s top student. The question is how long did Lu Shui Tien learn from Lu shu Kui?
Parks System is not practiced in Beijing. All Yin Practitioners when asked about it. After looking at the video, they say it is not Yin Fu. It looks like a Hybrid method of Cheng style. Which as a practitioner of Cheng style for 17yrs and a Yin Practitioner for the last 8 I can attest to that. If Park knows Yin style ya’ll are not learning it. My brother and me thought it was Cheng style until someone said it was Yin. Only the Lion posture from parks Mother Palms looks like Yin the rest is Cheng.
Now look. I personally have nothing against Park but you guys put it out there. I look to find the best. The statements made here on line are false; the origin tale has to many holes. The practitioners we’ve met are quit weak in strength and technique. If your gonna come than come right. Hell if park is that tuff than I want to learn from him. But his representation does not speck well of his teaching at all and that’s on you guys. Besides how can you get good when you don’t see him that much? Another problem.

Back to the tomb,
Dong Hai Chuan’s Tomb Was moved from Beijing to Wen An, his home town, in 1981-82 it was at that time that park and his teacher were put on it. How is it that the book, written in the 90’s, a minimum of 10 yrs has past and you don’t know the name of Lu’s teacher? Come on. No one is that stupid. Lu shui Tien was a student of Lu shu kui and perhaps a family member that does not merit him being put on the tomb. The names that are there are significant in that they are either successors or contributors. Which is Lu Shui tien? Do your research.

Kyle:

(Several of the practitioners mentioned that they thought Lu Shui-Tien's second teacher had studied with Yin Fu's son-in- law,He Chin-Kuei.
While this has not being confirmed,it will make sense that one or both of Lu's teachers were of the Yin Fu lineage because much of the Pa Kua Chang that he taught is very characteristic of the Yin Fu Style).

Where are these characteristics? Pray tell
Have you seen other Yin fu stylist?

("Today the name Lu Shui-Tien is well known among the practitioners of the Yin Fu lineage.)

Who are you talking about? Off hand I can only think of three true yin stylists In America with pure lineage. They don’t acknowledge Park’s system. The 4 I know in Beijing won’t even hold a conversation about it other than “ that’s not Yin Style”.

Ghundi:

Why are you bothering me again? At every point I’ve delt with you. Concerning these topics. Don’t you get it yet? This is not a hobby for me. This is what I do. Research, Fight, train Period.

My knowledge of the history of Ba-Gua is extensive but I’m not infallible. What I wrote came from memory, being that I don’t have access to my whole library at this time. And what does it matter anyway? Am I wrong? If so how? Show me where.


Ma:
(Chang chuan and Ba Ji are not Ba-Gua forms, they are Shaolin.)

Kyle:
(Where does it say that Lu Shui Tien DID NOT KNOW HIS SECOND TEACHER OR WHEN THE FIRST DIED.)

On page 10

(Even from the "well known" lineages,it is impposible to know how much info Yin FU or Dong Hai Chuan or Cao passed on to his students or how much they mixed it with other arts)


Dong passed on his system, that’s what he wanted. Yin learned and taught what he learned from Dong Hai Chuan, which was Lohan and the Style he created from it. Cao Zhong Sheng only learned Ba-Gua and that is all he taught.


(So even if the principles and the expresion still looks unfamiliar to you,why denied it?,why not accept it as something different.)

All Ba-Gua shares the same principles. All Yin stylists have the same characteristics the same exist with the cheng style. Park is out side of the Yin school with no sameness. Explain that. A Car cannot be a Truck and a Rhino can’t be a Rabbit, Explain your point.

(but to question the background of a teacher with real skills without any logical basis or proof is not honorable sir.)

That’s not true; First and foremost his student put him out here to be questioned. Second, You judge the quality of the teacher by the students. Well our people have crossed hands and the teaching method to us leaves much to be desired. And that’s the truth. And there’s other things as well such as, you’re a Ba-Gua practitioner, how is it that your doing Ba-Ji at a tournament? Yes I question that teacher. That’s Bull$hit. I pay to learn Ba-Gua that’s what I expect to be doing at a tournament. If I’m not good enough yet than I’ll have to wait and keep practicing. Come on man. What are you saying? That’s like a Hung-Ga practitioner entering a tournament and doing Mantis, which he learned from the Hung-Ga school. Ridiculous.


(It is in your personal agenda and for unknown reasons to try to discredit Park and his school on this forum spreading false information.)

No. It’s the other way around. We just want truth and what we get is just a bunch of crap. Somebody do the research. We have no vendetta against park but the way his Reps put him out here against people who know better what do you expect? We’re not politicians we’re martial Artist with the goal to promote Ba-Gua as it was handed down, not as someone wants to see it.

[blacktaoist]

Are you saying that if I were one of your loyal student you will consider me a mental slave?.

1# I don't consider any of my students a mental stave? 2# they know that the information that I teach them is real Because most of my students met my Ba Gua Zhang teachers in the U.S.A. and in Bejing China. 3# anybody that trains under me knows they can test my Ba Gua Skills, any time they feel their ready. I love a good fight.

So they know from their own experience that what I teach is practical for real fighting base on their own freedom to explore my combat methods and utilize them in a more practical form of combat for themself. In the end they become their own martial art sage.

Not a mental stave totally unaware that his mind is shackled and his capacity for thought is limited by those who control his ass".

[blkbelt65]

GREAT POST!!!!! YOU REALLY DO YOUR RESEARCH MAN, THAT IS VERY OBVIOUS. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK.

WHEN I WAS AT PARKS SCHOOL TRAINING DIRECTLY WITH THE MAN, HE MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT HIS STYLE OF BA-GUA WAS DRAGON STYLE. IS THAT A STYLE OF BA-GUA?? I HAVEN'T DONE ANY RESEARCH ON BA-GUA MYSELF. AFTER 2 DISAPPOINTING YEARS WITH HIM I LEFT AND WENT TO WING CHUN AND THEN TAUGHT IT AND CURRENTLY TRAIN HSING-I IN VA.

PEACE

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

where is a hsing i instructor in va? who are you learning it from?

is christiansburg near blacksburg?

i know a hsing i school at va tech.

maoshan-yes, chang chuan is shaolin, have you forgotten that dong hai chuan taught shaolin??????!!!!!!!!

[blkbelt65]

Who is it you know at Tech? Did you train with Park? How long? Do you still train with him?

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

and yu replied witha question. your questions have been answered already if you read my prior posts.

now answer my questions please.

ps- i know the moy yat ving tsun people in richmond btw

[Raiden]

Well, if anybody is interested I finally got a hold of Glen Wright. He pretty much just blew me off.

I was very curtious and respectfull on the phone, even after calling for 3 months and leaving messages that got no response. I suppose he only picked up the phone because I sent him a letter the week before.

I explained that I have a serious interest in bagua and would be a most diligent student. I'd make the 2 hour drive every week, even adjust my work schedule to fit any way he needed it to be.
I plan on majoring in asian studies, going to China one day, blah blah blah...........

His response was that maybe I should look elsewhere.

I don't know what his deal is......maybe I said something wrong.

:(

[blkbelt65]

[QUOTE]
I don't know whether they felt they had reached the limits of where Park and his system could take them in martial arts . . . [QUOTE]

Very interesting.......What do you think Blacktaoist & RazekD????

[Raiden]

Ya, it occured to me that maybe he isn't teaching anymore, so I asked.

He said he does teach, told me he's got a student that comes down from Loiusville ( Kentucky I assume ).

My point is, that he could at least tell me what's up.
That's just common curtousy(sp?).

He may be a real nice guy, but if he won't talk to me for more than 2 minutes, how am I gonna know?

[Water Dragon]

Keep at it, you might be closer than you think. I know at least a couple ofpeople that will play that game for a while (in fact, they say almost the exact same thing)

Of course, maybe he's not interested. You'll have to make the call on that one.

[blkbelt65]

Are you speaking of Marcus at the MoyYat school? People who are teaching there are what's left of the school after Anthony left for Cali. They knew only part of the system when he left. I was one of the individuals that taught there.

As far as the VT school I would imagine you mean The class at the fitness center run by Ed Hampton???

[blkbelt65]

Dude,

Do something with that backround image... Not very "EYEBALL" friendly.

[looking_up]

Maoshan,

Thanks for sharing your research on the subject. I hope that last
couple of paragraphs were not aimed at me because I never
said that I studied with master Park nor did I claim to have an
opinion one way or the other. I just threw out the tombstone
thing because that was something that would have had to have
passed the scrutiny of bagua stylists in China (and elsewhere
perhaps) and so I thought it might take the discussion in a diff.
direction.

So I don't know who "you guys" are and I guess I am not one
of them. I don't need to do my research because I am not trying
to prove anything.

I'm not trying to give you $hit, I just think you jumped to
conclusions a bit...but I understand that this thread is getting
a little annoying and going nowhere fast. I say these things
to make you think because you are my martial arts
uncle/cousin thrice removed/whatever. I am old-school in some
ways of thinking so try to feel my respect for you in these words.

Peace

[kyle]

Maoshan: I have nothing against Park.

Noooo!!!,of couse not.

You can speculate all you want about Park's lineage,is a free country,

In the end yours are just emotional speculations aimed low a teacher that you don't know much about his Pa Kua system,you only saw pieces of a big puzzle.

.
How can I judge your PK if I don't know your system?


Cut this research crap maoshan,all you know about this story and all the answers to your questions come from two people,

Dan Miller and Park Boc Nam.

Dan did the research, the interviews and the book and Park Boc Nam is the lineage holder.

You know him ,don,t you?

Believe it or Not


Either way my friend ,it suits me fine.

[razakdigital]

Kyle -
===========================================
Mental slavery?

Are you saying that if I were one of your loyal student you will consider me a mental slave?.

Welcome to the club Razac.
===========================================

Let me set the record straight. I'm my own man. I trained under the black taoist through one of my closest friends because he was concerned about my health and safety. I'm train with the Brothers of Wudangs for a few years now and I can tell you one thing - I not a mental slave to the black taoist or any martial artist and I will never be. When I first learn from him naturally I didn't know all the aspects of martial arts and pa kua. After some time I did my own research! I question everything and everyone until I was satisfied. Unlike most pa kua schools I was put into tournaments and sparring with other schools to learn if what he taught me was effective. I haven’t' been disappointed yet. Any mistakes or losses that have occurred have been due to either some days of not training properly or my lack of focus. Now let me say that TBT is an open person and never stop me or any of my classmates to learn from other people. Man, I've been to Parks seminar, sparred with his students, performed at Tournaments, I've studied with various with other Pa Kua masters in NYC so that I can be OPEN to other styles of Pa Kua and Hsing-I. I've taken various classes at Li Tai Liang's school, Grandmaster BP Chan (may his soul rest in the essence), Chen Xiao Ping, and various other teachers....I've also went to China and learned under Master Su Si Xi (which TBT has openly invited anyone AND everyone to come to the trip on this board when we went the first time - please refer to previous post. This might be before your time on this post) I'm going to China again in July with the Brothers of Wudang to learn from Master Su Si Xi. We roll as a brotherhood and we all learn together as a brotherhood...

So I'm not in your club - I do my own research, everything I learn i pay for I get nothing free from TBT. When I roll with him to other Pa Kua teachers we both pay to learn. I'm then forced to apply my knowledge...

[blacktaoist]

Dan did the research, the interviews and the book and Park Boc Nam is the lineage holder.


Lineage holder of what Ba Gua Zhang fighting System. I like to hear this one. Because so far nothing you post about Park so called lineage is conforming to fact or truth.


In the end yours are just emotional speculations aimed low a teacher that you don't know much about his Pa Kua system,you only saw pieces of a big puzzle.

I know All I need to know about Park Ba Gua Zhang, theres no much to it , and there is a lot of "NEI KUNG"pieces to his system missing.



How can I judge your PK if I don't know your system?

Very easy answer. "OBSERVATION". Also I Crosshands with a few of his people. They had no Martial skill what so ever. In a real fight they would be good as dead. Also I seen the foot work drills and palm training you guys practice, that **** is incorrect. Park fundamental drills are all external.

Also Park don't do any form of Ba Gua Zhang Static Posture training in his system or Tui Shou push hands training. I know this for a fact, because I have students that use to train in Park system at his school. And from what they told me, Most of Parks people teaching is System are not experienced Ba Gua Zhang teachers or Martial art fighters.

$hit even at my Cheng Style teacher Li Tai Liang kung fu school in Queens N.Y. there are students in his ba Gua Zhang class that left Park School, because the Ba Gua Zhang they were learning from Park was not practical. Like I said I know mad people that train in park system at some point in their life, and not many had good things to say about his system or his students teaching his method. :mad:

[maoshan]

kyle

What's wrong man? ****ed? To bad!

There is no speculation on this topic. I know what I know.
I don't think any thing.

Your right Park gave Dan the info and dan wrote the book.
Names, dates, places. That is the basis for research. He put the info out there and I Checked it out. Don't blame me for the inconsistancies in the story.
Beyond the book, I have a friend who at the time I met him, I didn't know he was also a friend of my Sifu chen Xiao Ping For many years. his name is Kang Ge Wu The top Ba-Gua Historian in the world. He was a student of famed Sha Gao Zhen. When I was doing My research, back in 1995-96, Dan had wrote an article on Kang and his research. I in turn contacted him through a friend.
and among my questions was about park. He's the one who used the word Hybrid in the discription of his system. and if that wasn't enough, We now have people who have studied under parks sysytem with time spent up to two years. Oh we know what his system is.

I'm out of this, no more of this crap.
you people do what you need to do.

Maoshan

[Spirit Writer]

To be fair:

I don't think one should judge a teacher's skill by his students. I've seen good teachers, teachers who have goof fighting skill, yet their students either don't get it, trian hard or have a desire to fight. What can obe do there? ALso, two years isn't such a long time for your average guy off the street.
Don't want to get involved in this discussion because I don't know Park, jst what I've heard. Judging him by holding him accountable to claims is acceptable and should be done to keep checks in balance, but I don't think its proper to judge him by what his students can or can't do. By that token, BT, should everyone judge your skill by your students? After two years?

[blacktaoist]

.
BT, should everyone judge your skill by your students? After two years?

Every one of my Students can fight. And it dont' take me two years to teach them how to apply their Ba Gua Zhang. So that shows I can teach. Any one can come to any of my Ba Gua Zhang class to test or spar any of my students. I take my students with me to spar other martial art brothers from other styles that I know all the time.

So my students have real experience in how to utilize their Ba Gua skills on their own. My Ba Gua class is a open house kind of thing, anyone can come don't any spar, And most of all my students are fighers and they like to fight, thats why they come to me in the first place.

So I don't have that kind of problem Park have with is students, because my students are good Ba Gua fighters as many will see at maoshan Ba Gua tournament.

The bottom line is, Park Ba Gua system is not much. And I know people that have learned from him more then two years that left his ass, because his style is not a complete system. But hey, maoshan already gave good information that conform that.

Also If people want to judge my skills in Ba Gua Zhang, All that have to do is come see me, I spar,push hands or whatever the person want to do. Because I'm not just talking Bull$hit, I do this $hit for real. $hit I be at Maoshan tournament all day also, So if any one want to test my Ba Gua skills, I am all for it. It can't get any better my friends. :D

[blacktaoist]

wujidude I see you know what time it is. :D

peace.

Always keep the tao real.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Yeah i knew anthony "moy tung" dandridge. i went to moy yat school in 92-93. i met moy yat at seminars in richmond. I trained there for a year. anthony left richmond cause alot of people had legal stuff against him from what i heard.

whats wrong with my background on webpage? eyesore, not really just generic and plain.:)

[Spirit Writer]

BT: good, good! That is the way it should be.
I'm sure in due time someone will take you up on your offer. Be well, best to you at the tournament.

[blkbelt65]

HE HAD MORE LAWSUITS AGAINST HIM FOR MORE THINGS THAN YOU COULD IMAGINE.....ASIDE FROM THAT, BEING A LOUSY TEACHER WAS ONE OF HIS MANY SHORTCUMMINGS.

[Raiden]

Thanks for the advice men.

I was a little irritated at first but, now I'm in a zen kinda mood about it.

I'm actually thinkin of tansfering to university out west, Cali or Washington maybe.....plenty o' good teachers out that way i hear.

Cheers
:D

[count]

but thanks for the plug wujidude. You are correct that many people earned their position or listing on Dong's tomb simply by donating to the moving and restoration of it. Not saying that is true of Park. I have no info about his lineage I would call concrete. The only thing I wanted to add is, more info on Jason Tsou could be found at our web site for Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com/), not my personal kabooom site.;)

[Jaws8u]

"I don't think one should judge a teacher's skill by his students."

spirit writer

If you do not judge a teacher by his students how do you? We are not suggesting that Park has no fighting skills of his own, maybe he does, maybe he doesnt. We are simply suggesting that his ability to teach it to others is lacking.

[Spirit Writer]

Maybe he doesn't "teach" well. Maybe his students aren't too bright, and don't "learn" well. Maybe they don't practice. Maybe they are all soft and don't test. I don't know, I don't know the man. BUT, if you want to test his skills simply request to cross hands with him. It is the only way. Talking back and forth on the internet does nothing but speculate and slander. Fight the man, then you'll know.

[hkphooey]

hey bro

i just read your last post. if by "washington" you mean "seattle"... you should email me before coming here thinking there are lots of good teachers!!!! the place is great....the teachers are thin...

[razakdigital]

Spirit - I just wanted to touch on your comment -

Maybe he doesn't "teach" well. Maybe his students aren't too bright, and don't "learn" well. Maybe they don't practice. Maybe they are all soft and don't test. I don't know, I don't know the man. BUT, if you want to test his skills simply request to cross hands with him. It is the only way. Talking back and forth on the internet does nothing but speculate and slander. Fight the man, then you'll know.

I agree with you that talking back and forth does nothing but speculate and slander. But it is unrealistic to expect Park Nam to touch with anybody to prove his skills.

[Spirit Writer]

If a master is unwilling to send a "top student" or stand in for him personally to accept a challenge, then we can begin to move beyond speculation.

[razakdigital]

Spirit - I agree...

That I can agree with - but how many pa kua schools do you know of that would allow such an action?

[Spirit Writer]

I only know of one. Not personaly, but by what EvoFist has told me. His master has accepted several challenges since he has been studying there. But I'm not down with the internal scene, I have to admit. Thinking of getting into it though. What I have scene I have liked. I haven't seen anything "soft" or "hippy-ish" about it. Chinatown is just a bit out of the way for me now.

[Justa Man]

If a master is unwilling to send a "top student" or stand in for him personally to accept a challenge, then we can begin to move beyond speculation.

Has park done this?
Has anyone formally challenged him?

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

where are you going with this? park already had his days with challenges if you read his book. many of his students have competed

i have competed in china and did a pakua form and got a gold medal in shanghai.

we are in america with LAWYERS DUH!

i got into a challenge and got 6 months in the holding pen spirit writer and i am a park student, i left a god **** shoe print on the face of my victim on his dam forehead that didnt help me in court. i am a park student and f you if you think we cant fight. the aszhole was 6'5 and over 200 lb i am 5'6 and 140 so f all of yall

thats was a fa jing foot print on azzholes face.

[Spirit Writer]

If you read my post, I think it would be clear that I don't know you, don't know Mr. Park, haven't read his book and so on and so forth. I was sticking up for your teacher, saying there is only one way to know another's skill.
Seems like there are still a lot of non-believers. Maybe Mr. Park should come out of retirement, or perhaps some students make some rounds at tournaments in other then form competitions. Not saying this to raise suspicion, as I said, I do not know the man at all. If he is beyond the age, then it is up to you guys, the students. Sorry to here about your run in with the law. Seems terrible to accept a challenge and then have the other press charges.

[kalis]

You guys, Park could care less what you guys think, or anyone else as far as that goes. Park had students competing in full contact tournaments in taiwan, hong kong and other places before most of you guys even new what Pakua was.
Many of his student have won gold, silver. and bronze medals in these tournaments and there are pictures and old new paper articals to back this up.
These tournaments were fought at a higher level than the kung fu tournaments are fought over here in the states today.
Many serious injuries and at least one death was witnessed( a palm slap to the top of the head) , there were no protective gear worn, just white gardener type gloves {no padding}.

The fighters from Inchon korea was very respected and known at these tournaments back in the seventies.
This is when Park was young and full of fire and loved to fight and train fighters. This is all documented in pictures and news papers that park has, and some have seen.

Park has been there and done that already!!

[Spirit Writer]

Touché

[YiLiJingLei]

I realize that a seminar is just a small glimpse into what & how a teacher presents thier art. I had the opportunity to attend one of Park Bok Nam's seminar's earlier this year here in Seattle. Since I've studied a couple branches of Bagua (Cheng Ting Hua's & Zhang Zhao Dong's), I was eager to get a taste of what Park's BaGua was like, especially with all the good references I'd heard. From attending seminars from other teachers, I was used to instructors trying to put out as much useful information/practice methods as possible, to give a taste of what the art's about.

The seminar was broken up into two parts: a 2 & 1/2 hour lecture in the morning, a lunch break, then the technical aspects of the seminar. The lecture started out interestingly enough, Park's a friendly, personable fellow. But I kept wondering, during the lecture, "when is he going to begin the instructional portion of the lecture?" as he rambled through a funny bio of his life over the 2 1/2 hours. I was surprised how little meaningful dissertation was presented. Oh, well, I thought, as we broke for lunch, the technical half of the seminar ought to be impressive, and make up for the morning.

There were about 30 students attending the seminar, some with little martial arts experience, some were some of Park's students for several years, some came as far away as California and Idaho.

Well, as the physical training/technical part of the seminar drew to an end, I was again surprised at how very little information was presented in a days time. Probably the shallowest seminar I've ever attended. Park appeared to have some skill, and was a nice enough fellow, but none of his students taking his expensive "correspondence program" were much to write home about. Actually I was amazed to find that folks that I thought'd perhaps only been practicing from Park for a couple months or so had actually been students of his for several years. I couldn't help but wonder how he managed to keep so many of them so captivated with such a shallow, expensive correspondance program, but then I remembered one of his local students explaining that Park doesn't allow his students to visit other schools or seminars. I understand keeping focus on one art, but not to put blinders on to the rest of the world.

Well, perhaps my standards are too high, and perhaps I expected too much. Perhaps Park was only catering to beginners in the seminar. But I couldn't help coming away from the seminar with the ironic yet enlightening moral in my mind "a fool and his money shall soon part". So, I just try to laugh off the disappointment. :D Needless to say, I don't plan to attend any of Park's future seminars, nor would I recommend his expensive correspondence program to a friend.

[Justa Man]

:mad: :mad: OFFFFFF.......WITH HIS HEAD! ! :mad: :mad:









:D

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I agree seminars do suck and are useless.

they are expensive and never meet expectations, this is not parks fault or the fault of many other seminars i have been to where a teacher only teaches a few things to be "slow and exact" because they believe that quality is more than quantity.

thats why i dont go to seminars anymore. the real lessons are building a relationship with a teacher by going to the school for a year and more until you build trust and a strong foundation.

seminars are not worth the money nor disappoint ment. chen xiao wong taught a 2 day seminar covering 4 silk reeling movements and i expected more. at least i got the exercise down real good.

i feel spoiled and jaded cause i know that the corresonding schools of park dont get to have him watch them practice so they are getting away with incorrectness without the watchful eye of a master.

m

[Jaws8u]

Just wondering where you got your information from. Is there a site where the rest of us can see a list of these tournaments, those who fought in them, etc. I haven't heard of any of this information being in his books, but maybe they are. If so please site pages, thanks.

[Raiden]

Well, after bugging Glenn Wright to death, he has accepted me as a student. In the couple of hours I spent with him today, he came across as being very knowledgable about all aspects of bagua, both theoretical and combat.

He mentioned that in the future we will do sparring, both controled and all-out with pads. Course, I'm probably a long way from that.

Jaws, in the future I'll ask him about his tournament experiences with Park, but I don't wanna start grilling him too soon on stuff like that.

Cheers :)

[kalis]

Jaw8u,

Theres a little info on the tournaments that Parks students competed in on page, 23 and 24 in his book "The Fundamentals of Pakua Chang" Park also keeps a photo album at his school, with pictures of his students fighting and standing on the
winners podium.

Park has Real skill Bro, believe that!
And he has trained a few with skill. Ive been around the martial arts for awhile and have been around some good martail artist, Park is truley one of the best ive been around. Park also have students that have trained with some well known internal Sifu, and they say that Parks ranks as one of the best that they have touched hands with. Ive felt his power and it was nothing like i have felt before.
He put his hand against my chest and with a slight shake of the body dropped me at his feet. One other time While showing me an application, he hit me in such a way that the energy moved me across the room about ten yards. It felt as though i was being pushed across the room. This man has a LOT of skill!

And we`re only talking empty hands, his skill with weapons is some of the best ive seen. So people can say what they want about Park, but until they have touched hands with him they simply have no idea.

[Justa Man]

Congrats man!

I just remember you saying for a while how you've been trying to get in touch with Glen Wright. I hope he's all that.

:D

[kyle]

Raiden

Persevere and you will succed

Good for you man,Glen Wright is a great guy with a lot of Pa Kua Skill and like sifu Park doesn't like to show off or demonstrate his abilities.He studied with him in Korea when Master Park was younger,he saw stuff we here only read in history books.

Train hard,be patient and pay attention.

Be suspicious of those who slander teachers without never meeting them,believe it,people have no idea of Master Park skills or some of his advanced students, until they get a taste.

There is an incredible amount of material in this system,follow your instructor advise and the skills will come.

Ask him for a taste of internal power,that will keep you motivated for a long time to come.

good luck.

Kalis

You have it right,I experienced the same taste of power with Master Park,I felt like a burning stab in my chest,my knees gave in and went straight to the floor,he didn't move much at all.
Master Park demonstrate me a taste of his speed combination once and if I didn't felt it and see it with my own eyes it will be hard to believe,he is so fast.

Just because he doesn't like to show his stuff some people get the wrong ideas,fools.

He told me that beginers don't understand and appreciate how good and complete Lu Shui Tien Pa Kua training is,but experienced practioners will see the value and power of this system

Ma

Glad to hear that you appreciate what you learned at his school, I trained with Glenn when he was coming to Baltimore
on saturdays,the man is a jewel,I will forever thank him for his help,he has so much to share.

Good luck with your training,

[blacktaoist]

kyle


Be suspicious of those who slander teachers without never meeting them,believe it,people have no idea of Master Park skills or some of his advanced students, until they get a taste.

You seem to be a student of Park Bok Nam. Are you a Advanced student? If so being that you live in New York, maybe we can meet up.
If not, then try to make it to Moshan All Ba Gua event, maybe you can Bring these advaned Park students you are talking about. Because so far the ones that I have crosshands with from Park, had no Martal skills what so ever.