Wushu types - what am I missing?

[Mr Punch]

This woman won.

The winner! (http://mdc14.med.upenn.edu/uswushuteam/2001arizona/Jennifer_Haight_AZ01_NQ_Shoot_Out.mpg)

This woman lost.

The loser... (http://mdc14.med.upenn.edu/uswushuteam/2001arizona/Rosetta_Mui_AZ01_NQ_Shoot_Out.mpg)

Why?

I don't know **** about **** about wushu, but the second bint looked like she had more power generating from stance, a bit of zing (TM, not a known Chinese expression!) and generally better stance. She looked half-way convincing.

Although she was more graceful, Ms Haigh's (the first one) stances were too low to be useful in other than setting up the next move and she seemed to be relying on shoulder movement and speed rather than rooted power.

Would one who knows please enlighten me?:)

[Gabriel]

Well mat, im not much of an afficionado on competition style wushu, but I do know they strain grace and fluidity strongly. Also, some of those so called ineffectual low stances can be deceptively powerful. I think miss Haight won because she made everything look so effortless, fluid, and yet strong. Miss Mui was good, and had strong techniques, but she was breathing quite hard and didn't make it look as effortless. Plus her arm strikes and blocks weren't as fast. And her head leaned forward or to the side often. And I know posture is also a major factor in wushu. Also Look towards the middle of both routines on both girls. You'll notice that miss Mui is ahead of miss haight in the routine. So miss mui may have lost because of a timing issue. Or because she was rushing her routine. Thats where the grace comes in I suppose. Sometimes its harder to slow your brain down than speed it up. Thanx for posting those though. It was interesting to see.. Pretty big files, but I got a college T1 I love it! :D

Gabriel

[Mr Punch]

'effortless'... what does kungfu means again?!;)

speed: Mui was ahead, but I think her pauses were longer, and her action crisper?

i suppose it depends on the criteria. haight's looked like a nice dance but mui's looked like it may have contained an element of feeling!

dunno!

where's wushu chik when you need her?

[scotty1]

I don't think combat application is a consideration in comp. Wushu. So it doesn't matter that her stances are low, since they only need to be good for setting up the next move.

[wushu chik]

Wushu Chik doesn't do Contemp Wushu, Wushu Chik does BSL. Wushu chik uses the term wushu for it's literal meaning....MARTIAL ART!!!

But, I will review the vids, then tell ya what i think...okie??

~Wen~

[firepalm]

Time requirement on a nanquan routine is one minute & twenty seconds minimum, less you lose points. Neither girl was under time so no point deduction (which is only deducted after all scoring judges have given their scores). Point scoring basically goes 6 points for technical (quality of movements), 2 points for power, speed, coordination, etc... & 2 points for rythmn, spirit, choreography, etc... (although both did compulsory nanquan so choreography not a factor in scoring). If the judges were following standard deducting the range of deductions could go from 0.05 to as high as 0.5. While Miss Haight could be said to not have as much power as Miss Mui however this only accounts for 2 points of the score and neither would be deducted a full points on power or lack thereof. In the area of power the IWuF rule book for scoring of Nan Quan routines states that firm & forceful movements be integrated in a balanced way with soft movement ('a firm movement develops from a soft one, a sudden burst comes from a reservation of force').

IMHO where the difference showed was in the Miss Mui's lack of full extension on certain moves, some faulty stances, and generally what I felt was a poor fourth section of the routine (relatively speaking to Miss Haight's), it was here where Miss Mui probably lost in points. It could also be noted though that Miss Mui did exhibit more waist usage in her strikes, as opposed to Miss Haight that IMHO was lacking in that regard. However often judges at these events while knowing the full spectrum of contemporary wushu, including nanquan (or at least the International Compulsory Nan Quan), don't often have a full grasp of the significance of the coordination between stance, waist & arm techniques in so far as the Southern styles go. Often these judges will have a greater affinity for the chang quan / long fist routines (which don't address waist power in quite the same way). There are also many current coaches from China whom teach Nan Quan, as part of their cirriculum, and really know only the one International routine and thus their athletes have a waterdown understanding of the routine.

Miss Mui is formerly of the Hong Kong team (well known in the Int'l circles for Nan Quan), while Miss Haight is a student of former Beijing team member Hao Zhi Hua (and more formerly of Lily Lau). This to me explains why Miss Mui had better coordination between legs, waist & upper body. Miss Haight on the other hand while lacking those, albeit vital yet less intangible elements but did exhibit better posture & aesethic form (something Beijing athletes are known for). Either way both athletes gave very fine performances, from what I can see it had to be a tough call.
:cool:

[Phenix_Eye]

this may sound dumb and I think it does but whats 'BSL'?

[wushu chik]

Phenix_Eye~
Bak Sil Lum...Long Fist!!! Didn't your school teachers ever tell you "There's no such thing as a stupid question!!" Don't worry about it!

firepalm~
BLESS YOU GIRL!!! I don't know enough about wushu to even start to compair, but i liked both!!

~Wen~

[Phenix_Eye]

Long fist!! Is this what you do?

http://www.uswushuteam.com/misc/misc_videos/CharlieLee-MingLiuLongFist.mpg

because thats amazing, I wish I could learn that style but I am much too unflexible and not very agile. :(

How long have you been training?

[GLW]

Ok...to start with, When judging form, do NOT let power or spirit distract you. Technique and basics count for 6 out of 10 points. Power and speed is 2 out of 10 and Spirit and presentation 2 out of 10.

The second girl had power and spirit ...and some speed...but her basics were quite faulty.

Gogn Bu (front stance) she probably lost 0.2 points on that stance alone. Every time she shifted into it, her back foot collapsed. That is hazardous to the root of the stance and the health of the ankle. It was habitual so it was a 0.2 deduction.

When she did her turns, the body connection to the arms broke. This interrupts power from the body and disrupts balance and continuity. Since it was habitual (she did it more than 2 times - that is the definition of habitual), there would be a 0.2 deduction. Her Ma Bu (horse stance) similar problems...another deduction, elbows locked in some places, 0.05 to 0.1 deduction.

She was a bit sloppy in some moves...not exact in placement, directions were slightly off... All of these are deductions.

As to the first girl, crisper, fewer technical errors, not as much spirit, speed, or power, but over all - those things are learned AFTER you have technical ability and good basics.

As to the statement about the stnaces being too low and not useful - that is only true if you have weak legs. You train low, do routines low, and work your stability - all low...then use high. This is a natural reaction. When startled, adrenaline flowing, scared, angry, people raise up, stances do not sink (In Chinese, the tranlation is the Qi Rises as does the body), so if you train low, you will rise up...be faster but still strong and stable....

The traditional teachers I have had and those I have seen who were really good ALL have had incredibly low stance work..and fast...when doing form. Then, they rise up a bit in application and they are still stable.

Another issue - this goes to the importance of trained judges. In this instance, the judging was probably quite accurate in placement. However, a casual person or student...or even a teacher who is NOT trained on what to look for and how to evaluate errors does EXACTLY what you did - gets impressed with the spirit, the speed and some of the power...but does not notice the instability, stance work problems, and the fact that if the basics had been there, the speed and power would have been even greater.

Technique comes first...only then can you maximize your speed, power, and body connection.

When fighting...all that matters is that you do not lose...you can get away with mistakes as long as the opponent does not use them against you. You can lose some power and connection as long as when you connect, you have enough power to do the damage you want.

In Taolu - form- it is all about expressing EVERYTHING to the ideal...perfection in ALL things - technique, speed, power, spirit...are all examined...and deducted for.

AND...sometimes the audience does NOT know what they are talking about even though they may have trained.

[RAF]

What were the differences in score?

A difference of say 9.2 to 9.1 is not a strong basis for calling someone a winner or a loser. In all measurement theory you must account for systematic and random error. Sometimes differences don't mean much (in sort of a statistical sense). On the other hand, too much thinking in this direction can take the fun out of the experience and drive everyone crazy.

[GLW]

As RAF said, the significance between scores may or may not represent real differences.

But, at the same time, all competition scores only reflect what the person did at that specific time. I know of a number of people who are VERY good....but they choke at competition and test time and so they NEVER win...but outside of the competition, they are arguably one of the best people around.

With those to video clips, using the standard scoring methods, trained judges would come up with the standings just as you reported. The numeric scores will vary but the placements from 1st to last should NOT...

But, that is assuming that the judges are trained and there are no politics and cheating with the judges happening. (have seen very few instances of all of these requirements - even in world competitions).

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by firepalm
This to me explains why Miss Mui had better coordination between legs, waist & upper body.
:cool:


Originally posted by GLW
When she did her turns, the body connection to the arms broke. This interrupts power from the body and disrupts balance and continuity.

You two seem to be disagreeing on this one point, or do you (collective!) mean that the coordination was lost between 'upper body' and arms.


Originally posted by GLW
You train low, do routines low, and work your stability - all low...then use high. This is a natural reaction. When startled, adrenaline flowing, scared, angry, people raise up, stances do not sink (In Chinese, the tranlation is the Qi Rises as does the body), so if you train low, you will rise up...be faster but still strong and stable....

I am aware of this. Looking at the horse in the first part and despite knowing that there are many different horses and that I know next to nothing about contemporary wushu, Ms Haight's still looks ridiculous to me ;) . On reflection, I see your point about the front stance though.


Originally posted by GLW
But, that is assuming that the judges are trained and there are no politics and cheating with the judges happening. (have seen very few instances of all of these requirements - even in world competitions.

Geez, are you telling me the judges sometimes aren't trained?!!

Anyway, thanks again for your informative answers.

[Mr Punch]

Wushu Chik: apologies for suggesting that you did contemporary wushu.

Contemporary wushuists: apologies for any possible implication that doing contemporary wushu needs apologizing for...

how did I get into this...:confused:

look, I know how touchy everyone is...

I'm just sorry, OK?!!;)

[GLW]

"You two seem to be disagreeing on this one point, or do you (collective!) mean that the coordination was lost between 'upper body' and arms. "

Yes...the concept is Shou Yen Shenfa Bu...all pieces have to coordinate and her connections and coordination from arm to wasit was lost by stopping the power ...not letting it flow.

We were saying the same thing from different angles.

As for the judge's training...I have been involved for a LONG time with the Classical Wushu area trying to develop judge's training...the US Wushu Union is continuing on with this...and iti si my hope that one day we can actually develop it. One thing we have been doing the last couple of years is putting the scores in a database. It is amazing what pops up about bias when you look at one judge over a couple of competitions...and their inability to judge or acknowledge they have a student in the event...pretty telling...and eventually it will lead to people not being allowed to judge.

[CrushingFist]

after watching the vids, all personal feelings aside, i feel that rosetta mui should have won because her form was better.

her stances were stronger, she had more power, and better expressions, her movements were more crisp and clear. she was all around better.

but hey, sometimes SH*t happens...but im not gonna go into why..

[norther practitioner]

This is from the iwuf, grabbed it off of http://www.uswushuunion.com
They were really close, you have to remember it is what the judges see.



Chapter 4 Criteria and Methods of Scoring

Article 11 Criteria for competition events

The maximum points for all events is 10. The criteria of evaluation and deduction are as follows:

11.1. Criteria for changquan, nanquan, taijiquan, daoshu, jianshu, qiangshu and gunshu:

11.1.1. For the specification of movements, the value is set at 6 points.

For the hand form, step form, body form, hand techniques, footwork, body work, leg techniques, jumps, balances and apparatus techniques, each slight deviation from the requirements shall result in a deduction of 0.05 point; each apparent deviation in a deduction of 0.1 point; and each serious deviation in a deduction of 0.2 point. The overall deduction shall not exceed 0.2 for more than one error in the same movement, nor for many occurrences of the same habitual error in the same hand form (including sword fingers). For the sharp edge of a broadsword of either edge of a sword to touch any part of the body, or for a competitor to make no distinction between the two weapons in handling them, deduction of points shall be made from the value set for the specification of movements.

11.1.2. The value for power and harmony is set at 2 points. Full points shall be awarded for these factors which meet the requirements of the events.

A slight deviation from the requirements shall result in a deduction of 0.1-0.5 point; an apparent deviation in a deduction of 0.6-1.0 point; and a serious deviation in a deduction of 1.1-2.0 points.

11.1.3. The value for mentality, rhythm, style, content, structure and composition is set at 2 points.

Full points shall be awarded for these factors which meet the requirements of the events.

A slight deviation from the requirements shall result in a deduction of 0.1-0.5 point; an apparent deviation in a deduction of 0.6-1.0 point; and a serious deviation in a deduction of 1.1-2.0 points.