Forms- A waste of time????

[Kilik]

I would like to know what the opinion of learning forms are?

I believe that it forms(excuse the pun) the groundwork of CMA. All the practical applications are hidden within those "flashy and pointless" moves as one JKD practioner put it :mad:
No disrespect to JKD practioners, I have a lot of respect for Bruce and JKD but to fail to understand the practical importance of form is beyond me. I sometimes think that Westerners in general are always looking for shortcuts. Nobody within our cultures wants to spend hours finding their centre or practicing painfull stances but those things are what CMA is about, "work and time". Without it we must as well be doing a sport like boxing where we can be awarded trophies for knocking our opponent out.

BTW I am a big fan of boxing.

My apologies for ranting but an anti-form person got in my way today:o

[Merryprankster]

I'm glad you're a big fan of boxing. But I'll wager that working out for hours, then getting hit a lot by punches thrown with bad intentions is just as disinteresting to the general populace than doing sometimes painful forms and stancework.

It's all hard work bub, and to categorize one as harder work than the other is a severe disservice. It takes just as much dedication and drive to master boxing as it does any other style.

[scotty1]

Dude I think you'll find a lot of agreement on this board.
I personally think that a MA with a lot of complex movements such as Kungfu needs forms to ingrain the movements into the mind and body. Its a form of training relevant to the form of the MA.

As a form of exercise it also has other physical benefits.

Which is nice. :)

BTW I don't think forms can be used to train in isolation, and I agree with Merryprankster about the boxing.

[Kilik]

i probably didn't phrase it properly, I know boxing is hard and you are right in saying that you can't say that it take years to master a style. What i meant was sport tends to take a lot of the essence out of something. I used boxing as an example to show that the technique can be learned to great effect, look at Tyson with that thunderous hook from his hip. But there is no real depth there. What i guess i'm really trying to say is, you can take one movement from a form and generate so many different applications with slight variances depending on your creativity and your experience. Form gives you carte blance to make your fighting style so personal....

[Merryprankster]

Have you ever boxed?

Watch Roy Jones Jr dance or Muhammed Ali then watch old tapes of Tyson, back when he was good.

Shadow boxing IS "forms," my friend. How you put together the basic techniques, coupled with your movement and fight tactics/strategy is putting your personal stamp on the fighting style.

You haven't convinced me of any insight yet. Try harder.

[rubthebuddha]

no real depth to boxing?

tell that to the guys and gals who train FAR longer than most martial artists are willing to. why do you think there are so many levels of boxing, from amateur to full on pro, from local fights at small native american casinos to huge fights at harrah's that you can see in madagasgar if you pay the $49.95 fee.

millions of people in this world box, but VERY few hold a change in hell at beating a reigning champion from one of the three big organizations.

just because boxing doesn't do standing meditation for chi development does not mean it has no depth. compare it to the everyday tai chi that's taught to geriatrics and college students at the local ymca, and then tell me that boxing has no depth.

[scotty1]

Kicked a hornest's nest there didn't you?:D

There are endless combinations, ranges, timings etc in boxing.

That is why it is called the 'sweet science'

Make your point about forms, but you don't need to disparage another art to do it.

[wushu chik]

Can we say WHOOPS??

~Wen~

[Kilik]

I must apologise for saying that boxing has no depth, the variety of fighting styles within the limitations of punching is quite substantial as in the example of shadow boxing by putting those various techniques together. I can watch boxing and just be amazed by the speed, agiltiy and endurance of those fighters. I guess i was still kinda p*ssed off by the comment about forms that i made the same mistake that guy made.

My humblest apologies.:o

[Merryprankster]

Hey no worries! We're all a little attached to the things we do :)

Can forms be useful? Yes. As long as it's understood that a form is just a training tool, like any other, and it has its place and purpose. When it is used for that purpose, good things happen. If it is used out of context, you get crap results.

[Kilik]

dude, you kinda summed up what i was trying to say about forms, when used properly great things can happens for the practitioner and thats why people shouldn't knock on it.

BTW It's cool to know people are passionate about their arts here :)

[Merryprankster]

They shouldn't knock on "forms."

What they knock on are people who place too much emphasis on forms at the expense of other aspects (like actually hitting each other). This translates into crap.

They should neither be over nor under emphasized. They have their place.

It's more about training methods than "forms" themselves.

[Gabriel]

Im tired of this garbage...forms a waste of time? bah. my question is, are you a waste of time? ;)

[Gabriel]

Heh, I just read the posts...my previous remark was based on the topic. Forms a waste of time. So I got a little annoyed. Sorry dude. Anyway, as far as forms being useful, they are very useful and necessary. They help coordinate your body with your mind. It helps with accuracy, focus, power, execution, speed..all the biggies. Let me explain power and execution...normally you would think that in order to refine those, you should spar, and you are right. Sparring is a major part of my training, plus bag work. However, imho, it takes more mental effort to slow down your movement than to speed it up. Forms and other slow moving excercises help refine the mind to a point, and this is essential to be successful in sparring and especially placing hands (an excercise where we play our arms to get an advantage against an opponent) After pairing all this with sensitivity and sticking training, and iron hand and iron arm,it all eventually clicks together. Imho, the reason CMA is losing so many good people to MMA and "Reality" :rolleyes: styles, is because there is no immediate payoff with KF. In karate and Tae Kwon Do, you can learn some pretty cool kicks and punches (all linear and hard) within a short amount of time, like 6 months. No, I'm not just assuming this, I took both styles. The reality dudes want self defense NOW and don't want to learn all those wimpy forms first. This stuff is just starting (I do mean just beginning) to click for me and its been three and a half years(full time..like 6 days a week..not 2). I haven't even skimmed the surface yet. You can spend a whole lifetime studying KF and still have more to learn. Tai Chi for instance has 108 forms, and I'm barely at the false ending! It takes special dedication to be skilled at anything, and these guys that bounce from school to school, I often wonder how they can become proficient at all. You get out of KF what you put into it. Period.

Gabriel


P.S. - I still think that if you take two guys of equal strength, aptness to learn, and athletic ability ect. threw one in boxing and one in MA, for the same amount of time and physical effort, the MA guy would beat the boxing guy. Why? MA guy has alot more weapons. just my opinion though. Im sure it won't mean much to some of you. peace.

[Sho]

Why were they created if they are useless?

Many people have their own opinion and purpose for forms, but I can tell you that they are definitely NOT useless.

They are good physical workout routines, good for improving reflexes and more or less good for intercepting fist (Bruce would probably kill me for saying this, but that's what I think).

[apoweyn]

gabriel,

how many weapons do you need to win a fight?


stuart b.

[Sho]

My opinion about western boxing is that it simply has no depth, like Kilik said. That's my view on boxing, although I haven't had much experience in boxing myself but hey come on I know what it's like even from little experience. No offence was meant whatsoever. I respect boxing as an art and sport, but my honest opinion about it is that it has no depth. Most sports tend to have no depth.

[apoweyn]

sho,

what does that mean? no technical depth? no 'soul'?


stuart b.

[Sho]

apoweyn,

Both technical and "mental". But please don't take it too seriously, it's just my humble opinion.

[Chang Style Novice]

"how many weapons do you need to win a fight? "

Only one, if the opponent can't defend against it. Of course, you need to be able to defend against anything the opponent in question may throw at you, too.

Y'know, that sounds like a good thread idea: recipes for winning a fight.

[TjD]

as a wing chun guy - the forms we practice are neither flashy nor useless

i cant count the number of times while sparring that my ingrained reactions from practicing a form have save my butt

a lot of the times a hand or leg will fly out and ill be "oh whered that come from" then realize it was straight out of the dummy form

forms may be useless to many people - simply because of the fact they are too **** LAZY to practice them often enough so the motions become second hand

not only that, they give you a nice testing ground for your root and power generation, and other nice quailities that many people who do not do forms seem to gloss over

perhaps the reason many people find forms so unattractive is they dont want to be "bored" by doing something over and over, or have to put in a little hard work

but kung fu by name IS hard work


sorry about ranting but im a little grumpy when i just wake up :)

peace
trav

[apoweyn]

sho,

fair enough. but i don't agree that you can "know what it's like even from little experience." i don't understand how that works. the fact that you recognize the basics and can perform them on the most basic level is not the same as 'understanding.' that takes time and practice, like in anything else.

the brilliance is in the details. the difference between a mediocre boxer and a great boxer is in small manipulations of key concepts (timing, distance, etc.). how is that any more shallow than gung fu?

masters of gung fu aren't masters because they can now do more flying and spinning moves. right? they're masters because they understand their basics to a degree that they can manipulate and adapt them at will. and that's what a good boxer does. so what's the difference?

as for the mental angle, that comes down to individuals. i've seen plenty of martial arts schools that lack any measure of mental depth. and i think we tend to overlook the mental frame of reference for boxing because it's already so firmly entrenched in our psyche. the mental aspects of martial arts stick out like a sore thumb because they're exotic to us. the ideas of blood, sweat, and tears are as mental though if spoken by a boxing coach as they are when your sifu tells you to 'eat bitter.'


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

chang style novice,

exactly. nicely said.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

He He, these threads crack me up! Kilik, Sho, I am a CMA guy but I have a suggestion for you. If you feel boxing has no depth, I suggest taking a week or two to study with a boxer. Boxing may appear simple, but it has plenty of depth, and as Ap put it, soul. The technical qualities of boxing are excellent. some may say that its fighting strategy isnt all encompassing but it is a sport after all. Could you use it for self defense? Sure, a good boxer has a pretty good chance of defending himself, especially if you realize very few fights get past the first few blows.
I agree that forms have thier place, they codify, the develope, the strengthen. Boxer dont have odd stances they stand in for hours at a time but they have dynamic drills, and other training tools. My wingchun recquires forms, not just to codify, but to teach my body to natural assume an elbows in posture, or a straight spine, or an alignment of joints. You wont see me pulling the 'Karate Kid' and running through SLT at the beginning of a fight, but now when I punch, my elbows tend to align towards my center line, my structure tends more towards what I have been training it for.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

i think that's the most compelling argument i've heard for forms in a while (not that i was railing against them in the first place). to train your body to dynamically assume postures and structures that are important to your style. makes perfect sense. i just don't usually hear it expressed that well.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Thanks Ap! I think for some MA it is absolutley necessary for that sort of developement, for others maybe not so important. I think like any other ingredient, like sparring, athletic training(including wieghts and running, and whatever else as supplemental training) it has its place. The old argument is that it doesn't make any sense to use them since you cat use them in a fight but the important thing is that you can use parts of them and some of them just arent naturally reflexive or natural posture! I can honestly say that before wing chun I never took the yueng ma stance naturally! LOL!

[scotty1]

I agree Ap, very succint.

Sho-lol at your ignorance about boxing. I'm not going to waste my time trying to educate you about boxing, I will leave that to more patient people like Apoweyn.

But from your previous posts on this forum, I would never have guessed that you would disparage an art that you have no experience of.

Its funny but CMA take so much crap from ignorant MMA types that I would have thought most of them would have a more open mind, but no, on this forum and others I repeatedly see opinions like yours. Terrible.

And usually the people that say that boxing has no depth and wouldn't defeat Kungfu because of Kungfu's variety of weapons are the people least likely to get in a ring and prove it.

Anyway, back to forms...

[apoweyn]

cheers scotty.


stuart

[shaolinboxer]

I think it's important to keep in mind that, generally, forms were created in times of relative peace and/or seclusion. Times when masters sought not to defeat the enemy, but to formulate a pattern for transmission, meditation, and the development of different strengths. It is the truth relfected off of the mirror of their souls.

Here's a question..should forms remain constant? Or should forms be fluid, ever changing as student after studies, digests, unlearns, and recreates his/her art? Is that not what Ap is doing when he creates his new drills? Shouldn't forms follow the same rule? Or instead do we want to preserve the transmission of the original master? Is that even truely possible? Does it contradict the ultimate goal of martial arts?

Very intersting...thoughts?

[apoweyn]

that's a great question, shaolinboxer.

and it's a tough one to answer because the answer is only going to be as good as the person in question. at what point do you have enough insight on your style that you can start making meaningful and beneficial changes to the forms?

i have a friend whose instructor modified their tangsoodo forms. the front stance-reverse punch maneuvers were changed so that the heel now turns and comes off of the floor, as it might if you were boxing or sparring.

it definitely comes down to level of understanding. but it also comes down to priority, i suppose. do you want to preserve precisely what you learned? or do you feel that what you want to pass on is a little different? if so, are you now doing something fundamentally different? is it no longer 'original style X'?


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Shaloinboxer - I think in your personal search for kung fu, you may at some point become proficient enough to make your own forms, but should you try to teach them to others? Maybe after some serious evaluation, but then what might get lost? If you stop trianing the old forms because you feel yours are better, will you loose some of that 'soul' of the art? An important key somewhere? I think for people in the youth of thier search the traditional forms are good. For those who start to get a little long in the tooth, playing around isnt such a bad idea but the things you come up with should be evaluated with a critical eye to determine if they are worth the work and effort.

[scotty1]

Where did all those da*n worms go?

[red5angel]

My war is going well. Research and developement has come up with a way to protect apples from worms, unfortunately it turns out the human body cannot digest 'aluminum'. We are currently looking in the direction of plastics, our current edible underwear research has shown that most worm species are repelled by edible underwear, before being worn of course.
On the front, I have yet to locate the worm cell hiding in my refrigerator and it seems their activities have died down a tad. I have a feeling they are working up a plan to strike en masse and so am preparing for a long and hard siege of the fruit cripser by booby trapping. Unfortunately my wife was the first victim of said booby trap and is now watching me like a hawk........hmmmmm, she could have converted over.............

You will have to understand I am fighting a war on two fronts since I declared WAR on JWTaylors MOM. My resources are effectively divided

[rogue]

One place that forms and kata have for the most part become less than optimum is as encyclopedias of a styles advanced techniques. These days we have print and video to store these on.

[No_Know]

If I do something that is Kung-Fuy, and was to match against a boxer, I would not use knees or kicks...

If I do something Kung-Fuy, and was to match against a Tae Kwon Do-er I would use active blocking and avoidance and removing their legs to infer make your kicks count if you use them-- (choose what you're doing and stick with it (at least to a point)stand, kick, or learn to stand while you kick.).

...a Muay Thai-er, Rush jab to the face, elbow/knee blocks and folded strikes...

Starting this, I was looking to say that I would do as the opponent. This does presume that my comprehension is great. It Is. When I thought about the Tae Kwon Do-er I saw them use kicks as jabs and me not catching the necessary timing to recover. And if they were persistant they could overwhelm me. No striking~ matters if I can't match my timing appropriately. And I would have liked to beat the Tae Kwon Do-er with kicks. While I have the minutest of kicking ability [understatement], I might not be competant enough in their use to out match a Tae Kwon Do-er.

So (needle and thread), to see who you are/ how good you are play using the stereotypicaly key tools of the opponent. And losing can be winning. Because you realize your holes and now can look to fill them. Where you are to educate the other person and you can't do that by losing, recognize their attempts, thwart them. Then with a slight disregard for their attempts, perhaps this would indicate that there might be more than they thought of to approach being a semblance of good.

[red5angel]

Rogue, I disagree, ever been to a kwoon/dojo that teaches from a video? Ever tried learning from a video? You odnt get the subtleties of the form or technique from video. Ever practiced something while someone was explaining it to you, and although it feels right, they keep making you do it just a little differently? It doesnt feel right but eventually it gets to feel right, because of the form.......

[Gabriel]

Ap.

To win a fight you only need one weapon, true. but consider this.

Kick a Boxer: Longer range and reach, more powerful strikes

Box a Kicker: Wait for an opening and shoot insided rendering legs useless. Faster techniques and generally more precise.

Kickbox a grappler: wait for the lunge, spring backwards or sideways, striking with feet or fists.

grapple a kickboxer: wait for an opening, or learn to make an opening, get in close bind the legs and arms from moving, for these are his best assets go to ground and mount, or stay on feet, there are different schools of thought for this, as many of you know.

I am not in any way saying that boxers are not proficient fighters, Im sure there are many boxers out there that can clean my clock, but that wasn't my point. My point is that MA, CMA especially, train in all the above aspects, and more, such as force absorbtion and redirection(which is just physics..energy can't be destroyed, only redirected. When you punch a guy and he performs a strong block, he is absorbing the blow through his arm, and consequently into his body. Some train to deflect and pluck in addition to blocking. Which is to flow your arm around the opponents and pull it to your center using the waist as a tourniquet. The force of the opponents punch then works against him as you can work him into throws, joint locks, or just issue a strike of your own using the opponents power.) Also, some train to begin a strike in the feet, bring the power to the legs, up through the waist, into the stomache, through the chest , into the arm, and finally into the fist. This, essentially, makes punching an act of the entire body rather than a movement of the shoulders, or even the waist. Now I have seen some boxers do this, but most do not, they have a static stance, especially the heavyweights. So yes, you only need one weapon to win. But chances are, one with a bigger arsenal will have what it takes to neutralize a boxer of the same skill and athleticism.

Oh and Ap. In the future, please do not discount my opinions or experiences without providing some sort of intellectual feedback...;)

Gabriel

[Sho]

scotty1,

I know that I sounded very childish, ignorant and very forthcoming in my post and I agree that boxing is also an art such as anything else, like Chinese martial arts. However, I think that boxing has no pre-determined depth which is taught by the coach. In boxing you have to go in depth by yourself, in fact it is quite the same in eastern martial arts too that you have to be independent and understand yourself, but you have masters who aid you in your progress. I'm not saying that boxing is completely different in this case, but the same depth is not provided - you have to seek it yourself. Very often in eastern martial arts various religions influence the art itself and the way, such as the Taoist school of Taijiquan which means that you can study Taoism outside the MA school which provides even more depth and greater understading of Taijiquan as a way of life connected to Taoism.

I don't want to sound like a troll declaring that boxing is all bad and that there's no depth, but I hope you try to understand my point.

[apoweyn]

gabriel,

"Oh and Ap. In the future, please do not discount my opinions or experiences without providing some sort of intellectual feedback"

i prefer not to offer feedback until i've clarified your stance. and i did that by asking a question. it wasn't designed to discount your opinion. it was designed to hear more of it, so i don't go off half ****ed and discount an opinion i don't understand well enough. in the future, please give me the benefit of the doubt. ;)

"My point is that MA, CMA especially, train in all the above aspects, and more, such as force absorbtion and redirection(which is just physics..energy can't be destroyed, only redirected."

boxers also train in these things to a degree (rolling with the punch, parrying, etc.) but i agree that this isn't really the point.

"So yes, you only need one weapon to win. But chances are, one with a bigger arsenal will have what it takes to neutralize a boxer of the same skill and athleticism."

well, that's not what you said the first time though. you said that two individuals put into their respective disciplines for the same length of time would result in the martial artist winning. (at least, i think that's what you said.) now, if your argument is that the martial artist has far more tools, but has been training for the same length of time, then it follows that he has put in less time on each of those tools than the boxer has on each of his. and i'm suggesting that the boxer's comfort and skill with his finite skills are not outclassed by the breadth of the martial artist's skills. each only need land a handful of techniques.

so, my point is not that the boxer would win. only that the equation is far less simplistic than 'more techniques = victory.' if i'm up against a boxer with good footwork and a good jab cross combination, there's every chance that i'm going to get knocked out before the breadth of my knowledge does me any good. there's also a chance that it will save my bacon.

ultimately, it's the statement of absolutes that i have a problem with. obviously, it's your opinion, and there's no contesting that. i can't tell you that you're flat out wrong. but my own opinion is that the statement was oversimplified. that's all.

no offence intended.


stuart b.

p.s. heavyweight boxers may not punch from their legs as you suggest, but from my experience with boxing, the discipline itself does advocate that very thing.

[red5angel]

Gabriel - I thnk Ap has it right, you were speaking in what seemed to be absolutism. I would also suggest that before you assume someone else is discounting your opinions you seek to clarify as Ap was doing. This medium is often hard to communicate in but once out get to know the place you will find that guys like Apoweyn are nothing but respectful and considerate, even when disagreeing with an opinion someone else might share.
There are a few people on this site that offer some real insight and some real input. As you will come to find out the rest are here to either make friends and talk or troll. Watch how others talk and how others approach a subject before you make charater judgements as that will only caus you a loss of respect in the eys of those here who might have some jewel you are looking for.

[red5angel]

Begby - what you talk about is not an issue with the forms but an issue with the guys training. If you cant use your art in a real fight you are doing something wrong in training period, not doing too much form work, but like Ap said, maybe relying too muc on them as a guide? Forms are a guide, they guide you through your arts lexicon of techniques, and they guide your body through the positions you must assume for some of these. Doing them repeatedly reinforces both of these but never mistake that those forms are not for fighting.

"Forms don't teach one how to fight. Boxing does. Forms don't teach you how to take a hit. Boxing does. Forms will build stamina, but not nearly as much as boxing.(that may all depend on how much one trains though) "

This is a gross misunderstanding of what forms are, they are not an art unto themselves, boxing is. sparring ,drills, all do the things that sparring, drills in boxing will do.

As for kungfu guys kickboxing could be just your experience. I know alot of KF guys here locally who dont. My entire class for instance.

Comparing forms to choreagraphed dancing is unfair to the forms. and shows you are just missing a basic understanding of what forms are for.

I am not trying to offend you, dont misunderstand my opinions as calling you stupid, I am just saying that you have fallen into the same trap many people have.

[Merryprankster]

Gabriel--

Heavyweight boxing, for one, sucks right now. It's boring. Watch the lighter guys.

Secondly, you begin the punch in the legs in boxing, period. Anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't know how to box. Who are you watching that arm punches?

Static stances? Big guys tend to be slower with less movement. You would be too if you were/are that size and had to make sure to manage your energy for 12 rounds--watch the lighter people, and you'll see all the movement you could hope for. Here's a mantra for you--when you stop moving, you get hit. It's that simple. In Tyson's day, he was a movement FIEND. That's how he got inside and unloaded those big shots, which, by the way, were clearly generated in the legs without getting mauled.

Lewis vs Rahman--lewis got lazy and had crappy movement--he got knocked out.

Lewis vs Rahman II--Lewis was on fire, moving and firing his jab from the outside, taking angles, and basically making Rahman pay. Rahman had lousy movement and got knocked out.

Boxing is NOT a complete fighting art. It's a sport. But it IS a complete PUNCHING art. And quite frankly, it's a beautiful and subtle punching art. People who can't appreciate fine boxing are martially challenged.

[rubthebuddha]

good stuff each of you. :)

shaolin boxer: to your earlier question, i'd say forms should focus less on fluidity (even though it's important) and more on distinctness and completion of technique. if you're not finishing a technique before flowing into the next one when practicing forms, you probably will, out of sheer habit (hence the necessity of forms) not finish your technique when needed.

i study wing tsun, and a huge mistake i'm making (for all you wing tsun/chun/etc. folks) in my chum kiu is not turning as fully as i should, and when it comes down to chi sau and lat sau applications, i don't turn fully there (rather, i get knocked on my bum if the person is reasonably bigger than me). :(

[NorthernMantis]

"I would like to know what the opinion of learning forms are?"

Good cardio and excellent for developing spped.

[nospam]

Yes. For the majority of practitioners out there, especially gung fu - forms are a great waste of time if you are making reference to their use as a training tool to increase one's ability to fight with their respective style.

They have become as useful at determining ability as the coloured belt ranking system.

If you are training (2-person and sparring) what you are practising in the forms, then you're not wasting your time and you more thank likely have really lucked out and found a teacher worth her/his weight in green tea.

nospam.
:cool:

[rogue]

red5angel, I stand by what I said. :)
"One place that forms and kata have for the most part become less than optimum is as encyclopedias of a styles advanced techniques. These days we have print and video to store these on."

While forms are great for a good many things they are no longer needed as a store house of techniques. For many arts this is a moot point since their kata, forms and hyungs have drifted off of their creators original intent anyway, (I also believe that some have retained the intentions but they're few and far ). For example I'm learning my masters version of the Chonji set of TKD which is a variation of the Heian kata of Shotokan which are variations of what Funakoshi learned on Okinawa. I won't get into the variations of Seisan kata among Okinawan styles.

Also the store house idea breaks down since each group of moves may have multiple applications. To make many of those applications work slight changes need to be made to the movement. So here's the question which version of the form should be taught? The one that shows application A, or the one that shows application B? Or maybe the secret hidden move?

Also forms tend to drift over time, not to mention people adding their own personal perfomance stamp to them. Did Yip Mans SLT remain exactly the same, what about his students? Did theirs? Which is the correct version of SLT? Is there one?

By storing what the intent of any move is , it's variations, and it's intended targets on an adequet medium, we can get rid of the laborious task of reinventing the wheel over and over again.

[Shadow Dragon]

Rogue.

I kinda disagree with you.
Forms are more than just a catalogue of techniques.

Also if everybody does the exact same Form from the exact same tapes you would loose individuality and with that an opportunity to let the style grow and advance further.
Also Forms allow you to train the transitions between techniques, I know many styles where a student has to create his "own Form" and than explain to his sifu why he created it and what he thinks the benefits of this movement orders are (attacks, defense, next opponent).

Forms are not the end to the training, but are designed to let the student take them apart and explore them further and gain new insights.

I see them as a set of technqiues shown in one of many ways that we can do them, finding more ways/combinations/applications is up to you the student.
But than many people might not agree with me.
Peace.

[Gabriel]

Apoweyn - now I feel we are getting somewhere. Not in respects to the boxing, MA question. I mean, thats just a question of one weapon that is extremely strong and developed vs a plethora of different techniques, that, separately, may not measure up, but the sum of all the parts may be stronger than the one. But whatever. There are different schools of thought on this, and neither side will be convinced one way or the other. What I am encouraged by is the lack of a condescending tone. I have found that many on this forum, regardless of their post count, have been condescending and "all-knowing" :rolleyes: . This has been extremely discouraging for me to even carry on posting here. Because my ultimate aim here is to exchange ideas, and learn new viewpoints, and to meet fellow MA'ists. However, alot of times, instead of friendly exchange of information and ideas, training methods, ect, it ends up being a competition. Try looking at some of my previous posts on other threads. Imho some of those posts have been well thought out and delivered, only to be answered with a single question about one point or facet of my post. When I answer this question, I get another question, or worse, just ignored. Sometimes I am just ignored outright. The impression I get sometimes from some of these "wise" posters is that they only search for guys they can openly ridicule and assert their knowledge over. Whereas, if someone happens to disagree intelligently they just get the question or platitude treatment. And I suspect that some on here are just martial scholars, or greatly exaggerating their abilities. The assumption, imo, that those with higher posts here are more experienced, is just wrong. Im sure that there are people excellently skilled in the MA that have never even heard of Kungfuonline. So, I apologize for any assumption I made about your character. And I will give you benefit of the doubt next time. :)

RedAngel - I agree to the fact that there are those more experienced than me on this forum. However, if, in order to get this "jewel" from a wise master of the internet, I have to kiss a$$, I absolutely refuse. And the assumption on Ap''s character, though wrong, was precendented by my previous experiences on this forum.

Begby - Im not sure I understand what you mean by kickboxing during sparring. So I will ask for clarification as has been suggested. I will say that I think your concept of kickboxing and mine differ.

MP-


"Boxing is NOT a complete fighting art. It's a sport. But it IS a complete PUNCHING art. And quite frankly, it's a beautiful and subtle punching art. "

I agree completely and wholeheartedly.

NoSpam - I am curious how you know what the majority of gung fu practitioners feel about forms, as opposed to what you and your school feel..these are different things altogether. Also, I don't know about your place, but we don't just stress forms to advance to the next level. We stress sparring, sticking, technique, athleticism and others. And we have no color belts. I have already outlined why I feel forms are beneficial, so I will not reiterate.

Gabriel

[rogue]

Shadow Dragon

I agree with you, what I don't believe forms are good for is being the sole repository of applications, too many things get lost. They are still excellent for training the movements that the applications use though.

I still use my broke TKD hyungs to get ideas from, though I don't think my applications were the intended ones.

[No_Know]

Hi begby, hopefully I'm not seeming to pick on you. Muay Thai seems to have a choice amount range of techniques not the same size as Kung-Fu's. If I can speak fluently four languages, I wouldn't initially speak German to the English only speaker. Or Speak a language the other person didn't seem to speak. I might fight only the range my opponent(partner) speaks~

Boxing type fighting has seemingly been around for a while in at least some parts of the United States of America. When you see the majority of people around you who do somerthing, doing that, you might tend to pick it up yourself. Some people don't readily tie-in things or associate things. Taking the Kung-Fu classes, one could be getting a great resource for becomming a good fighter. Not the one step thinking of the form Makes it happen. But that through the form there are things within and around the learning of the form that are all the ingredients a person would need to be a good fighter.

Some children are knowing. Doing high level math, reading on a college level years before being stereotypical college age. Stereotypically these people are a storehouse of facts, but don't have the association comprehension for much humor or interacting smoothly with others. Things are statistical and analitical. And they lack a skill of connecting. Chinese Kung-Fu seems to have aspects. The School is more like a family. Help is sought from within. From fixing things in the school, to outreach projects. And you learn etiquet and culture and socializing, power, restraint, control, focus, discerning use of strength...by just being in that environment. A piece here. A piece there. A person learns without trying. Some who are impatient and determine what they need might skip important things in their developing.Because they determine it's about this or that. And Actually miss-out or don't get, what it Really is. Although they can do a lot of movements, and move differently/better than they did before they started.

People seem to have different experiences. There might be a single Truth made-up of many different ways. Many same ways. But each opinion might be a glimpse of that Truth, as comprehended by that person through whatever means. People's thinking might be off, but no person is ever wrong.~

As far as an absolute truth; yes, people here could be wrong. But it is more at, their speaks are incomplete and they No_Know of this. But in effect, nearly everyone can be correct, in their understanding as far as the statistics/facts/numbers.

Perhaps the best we could do would be to listen to each other, put the pieces together. And hope that we do something other than believe in our presumptions (without sound basis), talk from Arrogance or think we are exempt from No_Knowing.~

[scotty1]

Mate I have to read your posts twice, slowly.:)

[apoweyn]

gabriel,

no harm, no foul my friend. this medium gets the better of all of us sometimes. in fact, i'm stressed out of my mind right now (midterms, full-time job, wedding, etc.). some of that may well have come across in my post to you. if it did, i'm sorry.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Gabriel,

Stick around--there's some worthwhile gems :)

[scotty1]

I like to think I twinkle in the sh!t once in a while.:)

[omegapoint]

Any traditional instructor worth his salt will tell you that karate and chuan fa begins and starts with kata/hsing/forms. I have never heard someone of Morio Higaonna's caliber or Fusei Kise's caliber say that forms were a waste of time. They are the soul of a style and its teacher(s).

I have never seen a karateka who was really good at forms and bunkai oyo, or application interpretation, and not good at kumite or fighting. Most cats that don't have the memory (mental or muscle) required for kata training, can't fight in the ring or real life.

The essence of the Eastern striking arts is contained in the forms. Some have changed a little over time, but many still retain the same flavor as the original. Even amongst diverse styles like Shotokan, S h i t oRyu, Tang Soo Do, TKD, Shorin, Isshin and most modern derivations of Okinawan Ti or "Te", the similarities are more evident than the differences.

If you don't believe in exercising the mind and body then do some martial sport stuff. Lose braincells and mobility, cripple yourself, and see if kata training is bad then. I like to beat my own arse real good so that when they hijack the plane I'll be too broke-up and without a clue about REAL self-preservation, to do anything about it. Ding-ding... Round 2....

[Merryprankster]

I said it once, I'll say it again:

There's nothing about "martial arts," vice "martial sports," that preserves the body.

The repeated poundings you take in long term competition is what leads to physical problems later in life.

IF there were a tournament sportfighting circuit for "insert style here," with the same caliber of opponent you have in Judo, boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, etc, then those people would be just as beat up later in life.

That said--again, there's nothing wrong with Kata or Forms--they're a fine training tool.

[rogue]

OmegaPoint, in your experience what percentage of karate instructors taught kata as more than an excercise? How many even realize that they may be used to discover applications?

"They are the soul of a style and its teacher(s). "
Good point.

[yu shan]

Forms work is important! But does your KF style teach you the two-person to your form?

[No_Know]

"Forms work is important! But does your KF style teach you the two-person to your form?"

The form teaches one the two-person. Strikes are to certain locations (even if general). Block type moves are there to deflect/redirect particular strikes.

Two-person form helps one learn the techniques better for at least some. The sense of urgency puts the significance there more strongly for those who don't see in their mind well enough.

Each strike might have an attack comming at me from any of the surrounding direction. So (needle-and-thread) either I would strike again or grab , or deflect... But it's Not merely moves. It's purposeful action. If you can imagine that (not a question).

[SevenStar]

I've been gone too long... No_Know speaks English now?

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by rogue
OmegaPoint, in your experience what percentage of karate instructors taught kata as more than an excercise? How many even realize that they may be used to discover applications?

"They are the soul of a style and its teacher(s). "
Good point.

At least in the Shorin systems I've studied, kihon bunkai (basic analysis), and oyo bunkai (advanced applications and understanding), were a very integral part of the forms training.

Then again, the systems I've concentrated on, Shorinkan (Kobayashi Shorin) and Matsumura Orthodox ShuriTe, are not far removed from the original intent of the system.

Shorinkan is very competition oriented, but Shuguro Nakazato, Hanshi was a direct student of Choshin Chibana who learned from the original "Masters". He emphasizes kata and application of techs in kata above all else, especially ranking. My Sensei in the Philippines learned under Nakazato O-Sensei, so nothing was really lost.

My current instructor, Ronald Lindsey, Kyoshi was a student of Hohan Soken (amongst other Okinawan greats) who in turn learned from his uncle Matsumura Nabe, who learned directly from Matsumura Sokon, the father of your karate systems and mine. Kata is the vehicle by which techs are transported over generations. There has been a few modifications, but if you watch video of Hohan Soken, Fusei Kise and Ronald Lindsey performing techs and kata, you will see more similarities than differences.

It's hard to teach the application of a movement based on personal interpretation only. When some knucklehead like Robert Trias or James Mitose claims that they learned the proper forms and application from someone you gotsta' research it. If there is no physical proof to corraborate their claims, then how do you know that what your learning is not more contrived than the "real" stuff? Trust me , even the Gracies don't divulge all their secrets. There are secrets in karate and other arts, but you have to be willing to research them and their validity, to see if legitimacy dwells there. When people talk about "secrets" in MAs this is what they are talking about. Not everyone is in on the "secrets" but some of us at least, have a slight clue.

[Merryprankster]

What evidence do you have that the "Gracies," as if they were all the same "borg" entity, haven't divulged all their "secrets?" As if there were such a thing in an art with such a competitive background that arose in the training tradition of Kano's Judo--where nothing is held back?

[nospam]

begby
If one does not APPLY these applications when sparring, and especially if one is not TAUGHT to apply them in fighting, they should re-evaluate their whole martial arts career.

I've seen well-known SIFU...who don't use ANY ASPECT of their styles while fighting. I'm stating a fact here. Go to ANY tournament and watch the advanced sparring. 90% of it will be simple kickboxing with an occasional sweep.

My poignant point as well. It is a disgrace. It is a farce. It is merely business and a woefully obvious state of poor training and instruction. That is why I say for the majority - forms are useless. I have posted a thread about this in the Southern board.

The above is why peopel feel 'traditional' training is useless/ineffectual in today's world. And because of the 'above' - I agree. Spend your time drilling 2-person combos (these 'modern' forms are more beneficial and effective than most of the form practised) and sparring.

nospam.
:cool:

[rogue]

OmegaPoint, when you say secrets what do you mean?

Don't forget that since I'm working mostly with the TKD Chonji patterns along with Enpi, Tekki 1,2 &3, Bassai and Kusanku I'm not fully counting on finding too many secrets. Right now it's enough work doing kihon bunkai on them, trying them out in one step sparring and then trying them out in full sparring. It's hard to see if a move is a secret or just there because someone thought it'd look good.

The Okinawan karate may be different though.

[No_Know]

A plausable explaination might be that *******'s Universal Translator was on :-) lol


Some-such perhaps, some might say. Whatever whatever, very whatever, some good :~>

[mixxalot]

Well perhaps in other martial arts, forms are purely for shows but at least
in Choy Lay Fut, the forms we have are very combat and self defense effective.