Shaolin vs. Wu Tang

[fa_jing]

I understand that the knowledge is not great, of what exact styles were practiced in the shaolin temples. Still, many CMA at least claim to be descended from shaolin, or have gone through development in the shaolin temples at some point in the history of the art. The notable exception seems to be the internal styles: Tai Chi, Bagua, Xing-Yi, Pigua, and Bai Ji. I know that some development was said to take place on Wu Dang mountain. Why are these arts never associated with Shaolin?
Possibilities I am contemplating:

1. Geographic region - these styles all from same region??? Far away from Northern and Southern Shaolin temples?

2. These styles not associated with underground/rebel movements against the Qing?

3. Shaolin = Buddhist art, Wu Tang/Internal = Taoist Art?

4. Popular to claim certain semi-mythical origens for all CMA, some picked shaolin, some picked wu tang, some picked General Kwan?

You'll notice that for the styles said to be descended from Shaolin, there is usually some movement that harks back to those times. For instance, holding the knife hand in front of the chest (wu sao), like the Shaolin monks. Use of a wooden dummy. Inclusion of Lo han or other shaolin routines as part of the empty-hand sets. Training the pole/staff.

Opinions?

-FJ

[Fu-Pow]

I think people tend to look at the development of Chinese martial arts. They like to look at things like a linear progression.... one art develops into the next, the "line"age is "pure". When in fact the history of CMA's is really one of branches splitting apart, branches coming together, dead ends, simplifications, revisions, different interpretations, etc, etc, etc.

It's messy. Much messier than one might first think. The relationship between various martial arts is very "incestuous." Many arts have influenced one another.

If you look at the development of the so-called internal arts there are various influences that feed into them.

For example, many researchers have found that ChenTaiji definitely has had some influence from the original Shaolin Temple and perhaps vice-versa. They are located very near each other and some of the movements in their respective forms are near identical and share the same name (with slight modification of course). In addition, Chen Taji had 7 original routines including several longfist routines that probably resemble something like Chang Quan.

Some people have suggested the modern day Xing Yi probably looks very close to what Shaolin Temple kung fu looked like at its hay day.

I think part of what has caused this divide amongst the "internal" and "external" camps is the development of modern wushu.

Modern Wushu is not representative of other so called "external" arts. This perversion of real kung fu has found its way into movies about Shaolin Temple and has caused a lot of confusion as to what real "Shaolin" kung fu is.

Wushu is a dance routine and is very much external, it does not develop the quality of steel wrapped in cotton that real kung fu develops. Both "internal" and "external" styles manifest this quality although they may apply it in different ways.

[NYerRoman]

However, there is taoism intertwined with Ch'an Buddhism to a certain degree.
Taoists and Buddhists understood and studied the concepts of duality in nature, but the Taoist was more focused on the differences of Yin and Yang, while the Buddhist was more interested in the state of dynamic harmony of the two. Buddhists focused on the whole Tao. Taoist philosophy is concerned with the intrinsic nature of Yin-ness and Yang-ness. It is a Taoist stance to look at "Yin" versus "Yang" techniques, "Hard" versus "Soft" styles. But Shaolin, in what I understand, incorporates both.

But, I have never studied Wutang sword.

Now, there is a Hong Kong film, SHAOLIN VS. WUDANG with my favorite kf artist Gordon Liu. The fight scenes are coooool.

peace.

[dezhen2001]

I always thought Daoism was to do with the '10 000 things' that blossom from the coming together of yin and yang :confused: not the 'verus' idea...?

david

[Shaolindynasty]

Yeah i don't think Taoism is about versus it is quite the opposite.

I always found it funny that almost every CMA style always traces back to somthing like shaolin, wudang, emei, the emporer or somthing like that. Where are the styles founded by farmers or gangsters etc. Bandits knew allot of kungfu where are their styles at? Funny how we talk about fake lineages today when some of the most famous and respected styles could claim to be descended from shaolin and have no link what so ever. Oh well, I don't care anyway, I take everything historical in MA with a grain of salt.

[Leonidas]

I thought Buddhism has more to do with reaching Nirvana by letting go of "self", and Taoism is all about creating Harmony with the Tao, which is made up of Yin/Yang dualities, not being too Yin or Yang. Someone correct me on this.

[HopGar]

Hop Gar is Tibetan and stems from Indian Martial Arts. Plus we're associated with the Chinese Mafia - if thats not gangsters, then what is? :D But really, it is associated with the Chinese Mafia, but its from Tibetan monestaries.

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents.

[triad]

taoism is about finding harmony.........a connection can be found between shaolin and doaism through some of the monks that escaped the destruction of the Fukien Shaolin Temple in the late 1600's. Because the gov't would kill Buddhists the monks took refuge in daoist monastaries and actually lived their lives as daoists. These monks also incorperated daoist knowledge into thier own styles blending the training between the two.
A lot of farmers and people in villages learned the arts through these monks (and nun) which was the start of the triads which were made to overthrow the Manchurian gov't.

[joedoe]

From what I have been taught, the Shaolin and Wudang practitioners saw similarity in not only Chan Buddhism and Daoism, but also in their arts and so there was a lot of exchange of ideas. I may be wrong though.

[NYerRoman]

I see your points, but VERSUS doesn't have to mean "in contrast" or "opposed" to that create conflict.
A rock thrown onto water creates an effect. Hard vs. Soft in nature. They embody a type of "VERSUS" with each other, but what is the outcome?

It is the harmony of the two, which I may add something that Bruce Lee said well: there is a third way.

You are confronted with a fighter. You have choices. In Dao terminology, you FIGHT or RUN.

There is a third choice....alas the lines connecting the YING YANG Bruce Lee made aware in the public eye.
DO NOTHING.

I'm sure you all know this. It is for those who may not.

peace bros and sisters.

[dezhen2001]

the word 'versus' automatically brings up the idea of a conflict though. Throwing a stone in to water is basically cause and effect, something happens because of something else. I would also say that it's more complimentary and about balance than what you said before...

in fighting: who said you fight or run? It's not just polar opposites, but also everything in between. You attempt to BALANCE the situation: if he's agressive, try and calm things down in a non-threatening manner (that's 'hard' and 'soft'), not just fight or flight. You're right there is also FREEZE, and also many other things that can happen ('10 000 things' if you know the quote form the Yijing). It's not so cut and dry as that imo.

but what do i know? :D

david

[NYerRoman]

Yes you are right about the Versus word. I know the cause and effect rule, but I was pointing out the hard/soft example and it's effect. The act of two opposites colliding for example. Not necessarily the reason behind it.
Any example in life deals with cause and effect.

And yes there is the balance. After a while. It is what happens at the moment of impact that is of interest. Balance is not in question.

And the fight situation...of course there are thousands, if not infinate possibilities. But the extremes, fight, run or stand and do/say nothing.

Oh, just watch the film. It's a good one.

What do I know?....

peace

[dezhen2001]

Actually, i seen the film. Gordon Liu is great.. Have you seen 36 chambers of Shaolin? It's cool also :)

I just disagree with you when you say:You are confronted with a fighter. You have choices. In Dao terminology, you FIGHT or RUN. In Dao terminology (my interpretation) it's to do with the interaction of these elements, not just that they are opposing forces, but how they interact with each other. So many different things can happen, not just those 2.

But it's good to read others views so we all can grow :)

david

[GeneChing]

...if you can wait for the end of summer, we have some stuff coming in Kungfu Qigong that will address this question very well I think. But I can't reveal too much - just be patient. ;)

[dezhen2001]

i really should take out a subscription to it then :D

david