Hey Rogue check out this pic [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

diego

05-22-2002, 10:40 PM

You international politics is a trip, but im sure you guys know that.
What ****es me off cuz i have been on both sides of the field.

you have one side looked at as rich overly religious bigots

the other side paranoid spiritual headcases

No one is bringing science into this, i mean the current 911 war historically is still just christians vs muslim and viceversa.

i think this is why canadians and the australians sort of laugh at the americans, cuz they talk about freedom and justice like they are equating science, but they move out of hyperchristian ideas.
Now we got thier back, as we all know the muslims are still in the 15th century when it comes to those in power uplifting thier people, so we got usas back, especially cuz he the biggest boy on the team, but he like moose in archie comics, kind of slow.

AH RANTS

for real though the problem is bush and clinton were raised and are described christian, we know about clintons fiascos, and i know many socalled christians in my family"its just a status for many", now is bush a real christian or is that part of his vote demographics?.
If he would deal with science i think he would come with better solutions then treating it as a evil, cuz all he is doing is fueling the hate for future martyrs, i mean please shoot a bullet in binladens eye and his ilk. But it wont end because america is twofaced, it is run my bigoted christians, but we talk like its all cultures living in accummalated science.

Can you relate to this.
Bith sides is head****ed, cuz they place thier personnal beliefs into it, not even accounting if they have real heart, that these arent original ideas, The people who made them possibly were so holy but hella shady?. :eek:

:)

diego

05-22-2002, 10:41 PM

basically what i am saying wheretf is bhuddah at...

IronFist

05-22-2002, 11:08 PM

I just think it's a cool work of art. Better than I could do :)

IronFist

Serpent

05-22-2002, 11:19 PM

Diego

Your last post was outstanding! Very well said.

And, politics aside, that is a great piece of work.

diego

05-22-2002, 11:45 PM

Serpent, you know about the classic hiphop group THE ROCKSTEADYCREW mostly breakDANCERS for you newage rapcats...they all bboys/girls; I got this video of a newer member MAURIZIO from italy, he all yah big shouts to the founders kenswift, mr wiggles and crazy legs etc...:D Thre he all
I'D LIKE TO SEND A BIG SHOUT OUT TO MYSELF, how far i made it:)

wushu chik

05-23-2002, 12:20 AM

Diego,
I thought they were awesome! And everyones Shady!!!

Tri2bmt,
Yeah, I forgot that we are the BIG A$$HOLES of the world, and that's why MOST of the other countries call us when they are in trouble! So we can go rape, pillage and burn the hell out of other cities! The reason we don't have many things like 9/11 happen to us is because we don't put up with the bullsh!t. And people get the point after we turn their country into a parking lot! But yeah, we are the a$$holes for fighing everyone elses wars and stuff. I keep forgetting that!

~Wen~

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 12:26 AM

Wushu-Chick.

Most of the timess nobody calls you, but you still come and pretend to help the rest of the world.

Like the rubbish told at CNN that USA:
1.) Is the 1st Country to come to any aid.
2.) No other country has Red Cross, which is swiss in origin.
3.) The rest of the world can't do without you guys.

Not trying to start a fight, but a lot of Americans get spoonfed some vary slanted views by your Media and Goverment.

Like CNN conveniently forgot to mention the ANTI-Bush Protest less than 500 metres away from your President in Berlin.
Correction:
They got it up now about 6~7hrs after the other News services.

Peace.

wushu chik

05-23-2002, 01:01 AM

Shadow,
Where are you from?

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 01:04 AM

WC.

Europe.

Peace.

SifuAbel

05-23-2002, 01:21 AM

Europe, that figures. You ever stop to think that you are being fed trash too, by those that lead you? Our GOV has made many mistakes, but can you say that anybody elses GOV is any better? Its our fault that 3rd world countries have corrupt leaders that eat caviar and buy tanks instead of helping their own people? I suppose the arab oil barrons are too busy pumping crude to feed the starving masses. That is rich! Governments of the world use us like the eternal scapegoat to cover their mealy mouthed politicians who ride through the slums in their limos. Get a clue, your GOV is just as bad!!!!

Can you name me ANY high government official ANYWHERE that doesn't live in the lap of luxury while millions starve to death?

I hear about all this rapeing? Where? Can I get some too? Who is rapeing those poor people more, our GOV or theirs?

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 01:33 AM

Sifu Abel.

I get my News from the News agencies directly and not from national News, but it would be the same news either way.

It might come as a shock to you but in many Countries politicians are paid a fixed Salary according to a Salary structure like a Company and many of them earn less than your average Manager. Also they are NOT allowed to belong to Boards of Companies or get extra Incomes.

And before you start harping about your great constitution and how much better the USA is, check the Constitution of other countries.
And what those same countries to to assist other Countries.

Example:
Japan was the largest foreign aid donor for 10yrs running, until they reduced aid and the USA took No 1. spot in 2001. Not bad for a country with half your population and being in a major recession.

There are many Countries in the world that offer the same freedoms and rights in their constitution as yours.
All I am saying you guys need to stop beating the patriotic drums, chest pounding and realise that the USA only makes up a minor amount of the human population on this ol' Ball of Dirt.
Yep, you got most of the dough in the world, but 250 mill. vs 5.8 bill are not good odds.

P.S.: Happily aware and living a happy live.

Richie

05-23-2002, 01:33 AM

Nicely said, Abel.

SifuAbel

05-23-2002, 01:54 AM

rrrrright,

sadam , arafat and omar are on "fixed" salaries. Gee, where did japan get all that money. Oh wait I know, cause WE BUY ALL THEIR S HIT!!!

Yes, There may be many that enjoy freedom, just not those that are BOMBING THE WORLD TRADE CENTER. Oh yeah lets talk about where most of those 5.8 billion live, china and india. Heres an elite bunch I must say. India where its a luxury to say you eat one meal a day. And china where folks outside of the cities are still living in the 18th century. If I were you I'd get off that little **** pot you call europe and put your money on those that will actually fight for you against those countries million man armies. Europe indeed. What, do you live in all of europe or do you live in one place?

So we can't have any national pride in our local heros that risk their lives to save others? You self absorbed pillock. This clap trap is comeing from someone whose counties greatest feat lately is to choose where to have the next futball riot. Europeans irk me that way, its like that little cousin that curses at you, then runs to you when a bigger bully shows up.

Richie

05-23-2002, 02:30 AM

One thing you have to remember is that one of the reasons that Japan is in so much trouble is because of their spending. They wasted money (Giving isn't a wasted but giving too much is). The Jpn government bails out big corps. that either isn't doing well or wasted their money by doing something stupid. Plus, the cruption in the Japanese government is crazy. Each week someone new is getting into trouble.

scotty1

05-23-2002, 02:38 AM

Dude, lay off the generalisations about Europeans.

Are you a fat, cheseburger eating mulleted redneck?

No? Well then.

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 02:47 AM

Sifu Abel.

Honest questions and I expect honest asnwers (if possible without insults):

If the USA is the greatest Country in the World .
1.) How come so many Immigrants want to get into Euorpean and other Countries.
2.) How come other Countries got better technologies than the USA.
3.) How come other Countries got a higher level of education.
4.) How come other Countries have a higher standard of living.5.) How come other Countries have a higher level of good & solid social services like medical and so on.
6.) How come other Countries have lower crime rates.

Looking forward to some good researched answers, but I honestly doubt that you can give them.
Peace.

Leonidas

05-23-2002, 02:50 AM

:rolleyes: Can't we lay off the politics for once and enjoy the scenery. Stop being such a liberal for once and enjoy the art tri2bmt. Come on, you know you want to, admit it. :D

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by Leonidas
:rolleyes: Can't we lay off the politics for once and enjoy the scenery. Stop being such a liberal for once and enjoy the art tri2bmt. Come on, you know you want to, admit it. :D

I will lay off the politics when Sifu Abel stops playing Mr. Grumpy.

DEAL??

:cool: :cool:

dezhen2001

05-23-2002, 03:08 AM

Those were pretty amazing sculptures though...
As for politics, i don't have a clue about that. Looks like you guys are having fun though :D

david

Richie

05-23-2002, 03:10 AM

Which countries have better tech. than USA? You would probably say Japan and some seclect European countries. This is one of the biggest misconceptions. Japanese tech is not that hot. They make good TV Camcorders and cars. Oh yeah, don't forget dancing robots. These things are all gimmicky stuff. 80% of you don't understand how advance America is. Unlike Japan, America doesn't introduce new tech. to the general public until it is VERY cost effective. Plus,The saying "If it an't broke don't fix it" reigns in the US, but "If it is broke fix it (not replace it)" is also a used.
You heard of something called NASA? People take this for granted but the tech. there (that people don't see) would blow your mind. Japan can bearly get a rocket into space.
Places like Japanese can sell new tech. at high prices because they know that the people will buy it. It wouldn't work in the States. People are too frugile (cheap).
Oh yeah, and dont forget that valley where Bill Gates hangs out. American Tech. in the computer field is highly advanced.
The only thing you can say is that the US steal foreign minds and they go there to work. However, once they are working there and decide to live there, they become Americans. Thats the beauty of the US.

So what are you talking about? Japan can keep the dancing robots. I'll take the super computers that run the world (which americans make).

dezhen2001

05-23-2002, 03:19 AM

LMAO @ this thread :D I love the generalizations of countries and different cultures! :D

david

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 03:23 AM

Richie.

Lest see.
European Countries lead the fields in many ways.
Examples:
MP3 was written by a German.
Medical advancements in surgery are still done in Europe and not the states.

India:
Has the most rocket launches in the World.

Austria & ESA:
Build many things for the Space shuttle like the Space lab.
Most of your Fighter Jets like the F-14 would be lost without the electronics from Companies like Honeywell Bull (French)

Indian, & Chinese Software Companies are starting to make major in-roads.
European Companies are the leaders in specialised Software like graphics, audio, etc.

Lets see, Clock, Lav-25, Steyr, Unimog, etc are also US creations.
How come a lot of your fighter Jets were designed by Israeli?

So I wouldn't say that the US got that much as a lot is brought in from the outside as well.

BTW, I like the way that you call MD and many other things Toys.
Also that BLUEJAY the next DVD standard was brought on by a European, Korean & Japanese Committee.

Japan rules in Robotics, "Ginger" actually was build 15yrs ago by a Japanese but not patended.

Never mind that Sony holds a lots of patents like "Walkman".

As for stealing minds, re-read the rules for Chinese students attending University in the Sattes.

But I guess you are right. The US rules in all aspects.
Better we start bowing to the US might and power.

Bleeech. Yuuck.

:D

Richie

05-23-2002, 03:33 AM

You mainly mentioned Entertainment. MP3? Yeah, we need those. India? I dont think the standard of living is up to par, do you? Aussy, do make a lot of stuff granted. However, Nasa engineers most. In "Gates" valley, the computer is being redefine everyday. Dont forget the military. Jesus! if you only know the half.

scotty1

05-23-2002, 03:36 AM

If this gets into 'my country is better than yours' territory then its going to get really boring. Arguing about who has the better technology? What's that got to do with anything, really?

Still, if you're having fun.

"As for stealing minds, re-read the rules for Chinese students attending University in the Sattes"

Sounds interesting, what's that about?

I think the artwork is a bit cheesy, but obviously very well sculpted.

black and blue

05-23-2002, 03:40 AM

Shadow Dragon wrote: "India: Has the most rocket launches in the World."

This is true, sadly. Judging by the current India/Pakistan state of affairs... let us hope these figures decline to zero.

But I largely agree with you.

I spent roughly two years living in Hungary. We had access to all news agencies and, in terms of general media, BBC World Service and CNN.

CNN is shocking. Often late on news, always with a pro-US slant, and often, incorrect in its reporting. Even in the face of every other media outlet reporting, it still flings out warped facts and figures to what can only be called a dumbed-down America.

At times the news reports are funny from CNN, but when you hear the call ins etc, and realise many Americans listen and believe this cr*p, the situation becomes quite worrying.

I spent time with many Americans who were living outside of the US for the first time in their lives... to say the least, they were concerned about how the world is portrayed in America, and how it really is when you see it from outside of the States.

Many of my friends are American. Nice people - odd views about the bugge*-up world we live in.

Well, they say ignorance is bliss.

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 03:57 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by scotty1
"As for stealing minds, re-read the rules for Chinese students attending University in the States"[/QUOTE

What it is about is that the Students HAVE to return to China after finishing their studies.

As for Silicon Valley, most of the brains there are Chinese or Indian, not that many Americans working there.

Peace.

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 04:02 AM

Balck and Blue.

Like you I have many US-Friends living outside the states, and also met many "US-Tourists".

Many of my US-Friends are disgusted on how their Country man behave outside their own Country.

We all to often hear, "You can't do this to me because I am an American Citizen." etc.

Peace.

ewallace

05-23-2002, 05:43 AM

Where in Europe are you from exactly? It's a pretty big place you know?

black and blue

05-23-2002, 05:49 AM

... But not as big as Texas, eh? :D :D :D

ewallace

05-23-2002, 05:54 AM

Probably not. Texas if freakin huge. I think if you start in one corner of TX and drive to the other corner (diagonally) it would take about a full day of driving.

Most of Texas is just land (read desert).

Din Gao

05-23-2002, 05:59 AM

Let me try to answer those questions,

1.) How come so many Immigrants want to get into European and other Countries.

Two reasons: abundance of social benefits and proximity. In comparison Europe is a greying population requiring increasing numbers of immigrants to support the existing social structure. BTW, Immigration rates in the U.S. have not dropped and you are comparing a continent to a country.

2.) How come other Countries got better technologies than the USA.

The comment about no Americans working in Silicon Valley is funny. It is a very eclectic group of ethnicities and cultures but I doubt you know what you are talking about. I worked there for five years.

3.) How come other Countries got a higher level of education.

I tend to agree that public education in the U.S. is woefully inadequate but the educational system; public, parochial & private is still very effective. In terms of volume there are more good schools in the U.S. then schools in most other countries.

4.) How come other Countries have a higher standard of living.

The US has a very higher standard of living, maybe not the highest but above a certain point what is the difference.

5.) How come other Countries have a higher level of good & solid social services like medical and so on.

Because much of Europe is socialist.

6.) How come other Countries have lower crime rates.

Again, I agree here that culturally the U.S. is violent

BTW, I am Irish happy to be living in the U.S.

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by Din Gao
The comment about no Americans working in Silicon Valley is funny. It is a very eclectic group of ethnicities and cultures but I doubt you know what you are talking about. I worked there for five years.

Have to take your word for that, which is contrary to what my Indian Software suppliers and my Chinese colleagues tell me.

Peace.

EWallace.
EU is now the EU I can work anywhere.

Or does it matter from which state somebody in the US comes from to add value to his statements?

Peace.

black and blue

05-23-2002, 06:11 AM

England better than the States. No.
The States better than England/Europe. No.

Where you'd prefer to live is entirely up to the person. What I detest is the US 'attitude' of being the best.

I'm sure the States IS a great country... just a shame many of those who live there have been 'blinded by the light'.

The average American never leaves his country and, perhaps as a consequence of reading/watching/listening to a flag-waving media environment, has no idea what is happening in the world.

For many Americans, America IS the world.

Personally, I blame that burger-clown called Ronald! :)

In reference to my time in Eastern/Central Europe, I have one American friend still out there. He's vowed never to go back to the US!

This is one of the saddest things I've ever heard. And Bush... lets not start on Bush!!! ;)

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 06:15 AM

Black and Blue.

I feel the same way as you do.

Peace.

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 06:22 AM

Addition to previous posts.

I don't consider People that have done a vacation overseas as having left their Country.

For me leaving a country means staying in the new Country for a bit(6 mnth~) and getting to know it at grass root level.
Preferably working there and living like the locals.

Peace.

black and blue

05-23-2002, 06:28 AM

Whirlwind tour. Whether in the US, Europe or Asia.

15 countries in 20 days:) Great fun but you learn very little about a country. Well, that's not true... you get to see a cap.city and seek out cheap places to eat and wash clothes :D

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by black and blue
Whirlwind tour. Whether in the US, Europe or Asia

That type of travel sure "broadens" the mind from the forehead being stuck to Bus/Plane/etc window.

:D :D :D

guohuen

05-23-2002, 06:34 AM

Politics= poly,from the greek meaning many and ticks are blood s*cking little insects.

Mr Punch

05-23-2002, 06:51 AM

guohen:LOL

Abel and Shadow: ever thought of settling down and raising kids? Maybe you should meet in the middle (of the Atlantic!) and stay there.

Because much of Europe is socialist. No. It isn't. You don't know what socialist means do you?

Most news reporting is bad, but CNN really really sucks.

Shadow: where in the EU are you from?

That type of travel sure "broadens" the mind from the forehead being stuck to Bus/Plane/etc window.
:rolleyes:

Mr Punch

05-23-2002, 06:53 AM

OOOOOH!

It's made of snow!?!:o

Cool.

JWTAYLOR

05-23-2002, 06:57 AM

Man, you are some petty, bitter motherfu(kers.

Somebody shows a work of art commemorating heroism and you turn it into an America sucks rally.

For fu(ks sake guys you're more fanatical than I am. And Rouge, Watchman, Black Jack and I are are starting a training compound in the dessert!

VIVA SOMETHING!

JWT

black and blue

05-23-2002, 06:57 AM

Like... totally... snow... dude.

black and blue

05-23-2002, 07:11 AM

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM:

You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
You sell them and retire on the income.

>ENRON VENTURE CAPITALISM:
You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed
company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at
the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general
offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five
cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to
a Cayman Island company secretly owned by the majority shareholder
who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company. The
annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on
one more. Sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving
you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with the release.
The public buys your bull.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the
milk of four cows. You are surprised when the cow drops dead.

A FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size
of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
You then create clever cow cartoon images called Cowkimon and market
them World-Wide.

A GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows. You reengineer them so they live for 100 years,
eat once a month, and milk themselves.

A BRITISH CORPORATION
You have two cows. Both are mad.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are. You break for
lunch.

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows. You count them and learn you have five cows. You
count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again
and learn you have 12 cows. You stop counting cows and open another
bottle of vodka.

A SWISS CORPORATION
You have 5,000 cows, none of which belong to you. You charge others
for storing them.

A HINDU CORPORATION
You have two cows. You worship them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION
You have two cows. You have 300 people milking them.
You claim full employment, high bovine productivity, and arrest the
newsman who reported the numbers.

A WELSH CORPORATION
You have two cows. That one on the left is kinda cute

ewallace

05-23-2002, 07:17 AM

It was a simple question which was seeking a simple answer.

Or does it matter from which state somebody in the US comes from to add value to his statements?
Not really since they are STATES in ONE country. You are referring to MANY countries buy stating you are from Europe.

I do not wish to get involved in this pointless conversation. It was a simple question.

Richie

05-23-2002, 07:29 AM

I must say that Japan's standard of living is not as high as in the states. I've been here for 2 years and I have say its not. I have no hot and cold running water. I have no heat (only a small floor heater). And this is common. If I get a running start I can drive through the wall into the next apartment. REALLY ! There is nothing in the walls. In the winter it is cold as i dont know what. But, I have a cool cell phone. There is also these death traps called K-cars, where if you hit something, u are dead. Many houses here are built like those cheap steel sheds that they have in the states. The only difference is that it has an inner wall.
As for the robot, it is cool. But if you ask someone in robotics other than a japanese, they would tell u a biped robot isn't wise. I should has three or more legs or treads or wheels.

I sorry if it seems like im attacking but I hate it when people sleep on US technology. I am not saying the US has all the technology, and everyone else are still using horse and buggies.

rogue

05-23-2002, 07:30 AM

I've packed my sun block JWT. :D

Merryprankster

05-23-2002, 07:55 AM

When I pledged my life away to Uncle Sam as an Armed Forces member, I just want you all to know that I signed up for the following reasons:

1. The chance to meet people of a foreign, heathen, godless, unenlightened culture and turn them to the light that is America.

2. Rape their women and small children for their own good.

3. Kill them outright, burn everything they've ever built, and salt their fields, selling any male children into slavery, and keeping the female ones until they come of age.

That was clearly in my contract, as well as the spread of American imperialism. Hopefully, in the coming few decades, we'll be able to annex Canada, the EU, Australia, and Mexico as our 51st, 52nd, 53rd, and 54th states. Except France. They can't handle self-rule. We'll just make them a territory and keep them complacent with Jerry Lewis films.

You know, there's a guy out there, can't remember his name, that has an influential position w/regards to foreign policy analysis who says that the reason Europeans whine so much about American use of force policy is because they are largely irrelevant by comparison. In other words, Europe is like the forgotten ******* cousin locked in the basement because they are no longer strategically important--to whit--they are no longer the anticipated battlefield for the coming war with the USSR.

It's a mixed bag folks, so I'd just like to issue a giant screw off to those of you that think the US is out to dominate the world or that our motives are as pure as a virgin's untainted pooter.

I'd just like to respond to one thing that is wildly innaccurate--the comment about the F-14's needing French Avionics or having our planes or some weapons designed overseas--don't think that our throwing a few scraps to some foreign countries weapons industry speaks to American lack of technology. It speaks to standardization (All NATO systems need to be compatible buddy.) This is why we have some Italian heavy guns on a good many of our Naval vessels, some French Avionics, NATO fittings for UNREPS at sea, etc.

It would be diplomatically IMPOSSIBLE to require all American equipment, so we send a few contracts out overseas to allied nations, which smug European heads of state, who love to bash the US, lap up like hungry kittens because of the American dollar that backs it.

black and blue

05-23-2002, 08:08 AM

Did you just p*ss your pants?

Merryprankster

05-23-2002, 08:25 AM

Nope, I just figured that both the demonization of the US, and the idea that its motives are pristine are two of the most equally assinine ideas ever developed, and thought I'd inject some sarcasm (with just a subtle hint of the hypocritical truth) into a subject that seems to be blathered on about with great pomposity by both sides.

The US isn't a bunch of war-mongering idiots, and "Europe" isn't a bunch of smug, impotent little *****s either. Except France. They are both smug and impotent. Their food is also highly overrated, as is their wine.

scotty1

05-23-2002, 08:30 AM

Why do you guys hate the French so much? Is it because of that book about 9/11?

Merryprankster

05-23-2002, 08:36 AM

Nah--they're just so EASY to pick on :)

black and blue

05-23-2002, 08:38 AM

No. Just a few people who wish America didn't have its head up the bottom of CNN.

I once told an American (in the States) I was from England, and the chap said to me: "New England?" :)

I remember thinking: "CNN. This guy watches CNN." :D

You know, the only thing worse than the US press is the Aussie press... Jesus, now that's a dry read.

Don't get too heated Merry, I'm sure this thread sounds funny from the land of the... Oh, I can't bear to finish it!

:rolleyes:

ewallace

05-23-2002, 08:53 AM

What I detest is the US 'attitude' of being the best.

The only people I have ever heard state that Americans are "better" than anyone else are those from other countries who dislike the US. It is true that many Americans think they live in the best country in the world and are proud of it. That, I think is a good thing.

Do SOME Americans act like asses in other countries? Sure. Many Americans act like asses in their own country. That should not be misconstrued by saying that Americans are ignorant because some of them think that foreign government's laws do not apply to them simply because they are American citizens. That is just a handful of them.

I used to work at a rent-a-car place and had quite a few folks from England come in whom were quite rude. I do not state nor do I think that all Brits are rude. Quite the contrary.

ewallace

05-23-2002, 08:58 AM

And trust me. Everytime I cross that border into Mexico I know good and well that if I break their laws and I am caught...I'm ****ed. Not only because I am caucasion, but I am from the states, which means my bail (if I ever get let out) will cost big time $$.

black and blue

05-23-2002, 09:04 AM

ewallace wrote: "I used to work at a rent-a-car place and had quite a few folks from England come in whom were quite rude."

:mad:

D@mn and blast you! How dare you say this! The English rude!!!
Never! Just come to one of our football matches and feel the love.
:D :D No one has sport-linked violence like us... NO ONE!

ewallace

05-23-2002, 09:08 AM

No one has sport-linked violence like us... NO ONE!
Well, I would like to modify that just a bit. I think the US would take honors in "sport-linked violence". You guys definitely have top honors in "sport-linked SPECTATOR violence".

Nothing wrong with a little good, clean, violent fun :)

black and blue

05-23-2002, 09:13 AM

Yep... for some reason (I think it's genetic) our spectators get quite 'excited'.

But as for games... rugby. You have a game more violent with less padding?!

American Football.... Hmmm. Basketball (which I love)... Hmmm.

B*gger what I said before. ENGLAND IS THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WOLRD!!! :p

ewallace

05-23-2002, 09:22 AM

You have a game more violent with less padding?!
Yes. It's called backyard wrestling. It is not televised nationally, although you may find home-made videotapes of it. It is a fairly large phenomenon with young American males who generally listen to SlipKnot.

Aside from that rugby is the hands-down winner. I love that sport. But what I detest is the English 'attitude' of being the best. :)

rogue

05-23-2002, 09:31 AM

I'm not going to Euro-bash but just give my retorts to a few of Shadows questions.

If the USA is the greatest Country in the World ...
.
.
.
3.) How come other Countries got a higher level of education.
Well that would be due to the fact that we have a one track education system. Every American student goes through pretty much the same education process, in Europe many kids get tracked into vocational schools. Guess which kids grades don't get counted when countries are averaging their math scores. Also you never used proper punctuation in your questions. :)

4.) How come other Countries have a higher standard of living.
Define standard of living? I have about 3,000 square feet of house, 1/3 acre of property and two cars, and I'm considered middle middle-class.

5.) How come other Countries have a higher level of good & solid social services like medical and so on.
I believe Englands system is breaking down is it not?

6.) How come other Countries have lower crime rates.
According to a LEO friend we have better reporting of crimes than most places in the world.

As far as the Indian and Chinese workers here go I've met a few really good ones and many who were as dumb as dirt. Most were somewhere in the middle. About the same as any other group, including Americans.

As far as Americans not visiting other countries, it's easier for a Euro to visit other countries, we do it all the time here but we call them states. Want to visit some good beaches? We go to Florida, CA, NY, Virginia or NC. Want to ski? We head West.
We're a vast place with many different regions, from huge cities to deserts to forest. You could spend your whole life exploring America and never see it all.

PJO

05-23-2002, 10:59 AM

Ever notice how most of the people that bash the US are also the ones that pay $90 for a pair Levis blue jeans, love American music, and drink Coca-Cola?
Just my two cents.:confused:

mortal

05-23-2002, 11:32 AM

U.S.A. #1 I wipe my ass with anyone who has anytyhing to say about it. You are just jealous and weak. I thank God everyday that I was born here and not some **** eating lesser country. Everybody wants a handout. That picture is a tribute to the brave men and women of this country who ran in when others were running out. Some people are to anti american to even see that.
Europe isn't a country..

P.s. USA!USA!USA! The best place to live in the whole miserable world.
P.s.s. I worked at the trade center you communist pigs

African Tiger

05-23-2002, 11:38 AM

Well ya'll just sound like a bunch of playa-hatin hoes, to me. :D

You can talk crap about the US all you want, just remember us when you pay $4.00 a gallon for gas tomorrow morning.

Don't get me started on immigration - your countries actually hold anti-immigrant rallies. And for some reason, they are always aimed at African or Arabic immigrants. You don't hear us talking about closing boarders, but France almost elected someone who proposed that as a solution.

Oh yeah, America rapes countries around the world. (sic) You people have the shortest memory, I swear. I guess that makes us even, considering the way Europe raped the east coast of Africa for 400+ years; murdered, pillaged, raped, and decimated entire populations in the name of colonization. And you even had the audacity to go to war over The Falklands, in the name of "defending the crown"! After all, "the sun shall never set on the British Empire". :rolleyes:

And when another crackpot dictator arises out of your corner of the world (this time it'll be Russia), and they march all over your country like a high school band on benzadrine, who 'ya gon' call?

txwingchun

05-23-2002, 11:44 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mat
[B]
Most news reporting is bad, but CNN really really sucks.

You mean to tell me CNN is real:eek: All this time I thought is was one of the longest running sitcom's on t.v. :D Full a bad acting and even worse story writing.

dezhen2001

05-23-2002, 11:46 AM

who 'ya gon' call?

GHOSTBUSTERS!!! :D

david

fa_jing

05-23-2002, 12:22 PM

I lived in 3rd world countries for 7 months. I encountered some anti-US sentiment. I say, if you're a member of a 3rd world country that has taken out big loans from U.S. businessmen, to build factories, yet instead of using these factories to increase the well-being of the common man, the leaders use the profits to drive limos around, throw lavish parties, kill each other, and your politicians are gangsters who sell their own people out, then you have some justification to resent your own government, and the US businessmen and government oversight of the early 20th century that assisted in enabling these things to happen.

On the other hand, if you're from Europe and you hate the US, you are a jealous chump who can't see the sins of his own home country, and feel bad that the US is your last line of defense. You have a big inferiority complex and believe your own hype.

Most people from Europe like the US. That I met while in Europe, anyway.

-FJ

DelicateSound

05-23-2002, 03:20 PM

Your politics [spec. foreign policy, env.policies, ETC] suck like Rolls' mom.

However, your people are great, and it is people that define a nation.

That's why I'm a stereotypical stuck-up, stiff lipped Brit :)

JWTAYLOR

05-23-2002, 03:25 PM

Well now I'm d@mn confused.

I'm willing to bet I'm better keyed into U.S. politics than anyone else on this board, and you've got me wondering what are the major differences between U.S. and U.K. foreign policies.

So, what are the differences? Really, I'm not trying to argue or be pi$$y here. I'm wondering what you perceive are the differences between the two. Current and recent past count.

JWT

diego

05-23-2002, 03:47 PM

Mortal to your ps, i think vancouver bc is the best place to live if you got the cash, i dont but im here, so im cool.

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 04:32 PM

On the other hand, if you're from Europe and you hate the US, you are a jealous chump who can't see the sins of his own home country, and feel bad that the US is your last line of defense. You have a big inferiority complex and believe your own hype.

Yeah sure.
My LAST line of Defense is MY fist into anybodies face that comes into my Home, and that includes any US-Soldier as well.

Get it already. USA is not the BEST Country and most of the World neither need nor want you in their affairs.
And that is what you Guys need to learn & accept.

BTW, I don't hate the USA just your f@cking attitude towards yourself and the rest of the world.
The rest of the world lives with their history and most have accepted it especially Europeans.

Most people from Europe like the US. That I met while in Europe, anyway.
Naah, they were just humouring you to get the "Yankee Dollar".

:D

Accept it the USA is a fairly new country and hasn't had much time to make a lot of mistakes that other Countries did, on the other hand you also haven't had much time to implement/try different approaches for running your Country/Laws/etc.

Historically when compared to other nations you are still the new Kid on the Block, but are the one that screams the loudest like most toddlers and chuck their toys around.
And cry when you take another Kids toy and he hits you for it.

Peace

chokeyouout

05-23-2002, 05:48 PM

I know you posed these questions to Able, but I can accurately answer them as well.

1.) How come so many Immigrants want to get into Euorpean and other Countries.

So many?How many is so many?Between our Texas and San Diego borders the U.S. has more border traffic than anywhere in the world.Thats not even refrencing our history and Ellis Island in the late 1800's.

2.) How come other Countries got better technologies than the USA.

What other countries?The U.S. is on the cutting edge for nano,micro,aeronautical,parabolic,medicinal and naval technologies just to name a very small few.

3.) How come other Countries got a higher level of education.

What countries?The U.S. has the strongest institutions for higher learning bar- none.No argument there.If your referring to student achievement averages then you need to not a few things.
We cater to every level of age and intelligence bracket regardless of race or denomination.We are much more intellectually diverse if you know what I mean.How many Armenians, Mexicans and Blacks are in a pre algebra class in Osaka Japan?We don't mechanically spit out erudites like some countries, Here it's a opportunity for all.

4.) How come other Countries have a higher standard of living.
Again, what countries?Your questions are broken and beg answers of generalizations.You might try formating them correctly.

Except for a very small handfull of countries we have set the standard of living for the world.

5)How come other Countries have a higher level of good & solid social services like medical and so on.

We set the standard for social services.Are you talking about public medicine?Here's an idea, go to Mexico and have any procedure that requires an anathesiologist.Good luck bro.

6.) How come other Countries have lower crime rates.

Per capita?Look at our population numbers before you say that.

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 06:07 PM

Chokeyouout.

I don't need to answer your questions.

Because the answers are common knowledge, but by the looks of it to everybody except you and some other Americans that keep humbing that "American Dream" and delusion of how big and grand you Guys are.

Most of what you stated in your Post is propaganda and NOT true or even based on real facts.

America has a lot of good and grand things, but for every good thing you invent you also import 1 or 2 things from other Countries. Accept that and move on.

But keep dreaming your dreams and living your lives believing those facts yourself.

Richie

05-23-2002, 06:25 PM

Why are we still talking about this?

SD: I really don't know any Americans that put themselves on a high horse(not joking). However, I noticed that foreign always say "Americans think they are the best!" then Americans defend themselves.

Believe me you should be happy that America is the country with the power. I really wouldn't want a Middle Eastern country or China or other countries to have that power.

ewallace

05-23-2002, 06:32 PM

Okay. I tried not to get involved with this one but I just can't restrain myself.

Shadow Dragon your stereotyping and gross generalizations of Americans is sheer ignorance. Plus you don't even have the b a l l s to state what country you are from. Maybe you should try france. They have plenty of cheese for all of your whine.

chokeyouout

05-23-2002, 06:33 PM

Please show me where I supplied answers based on propaganda and I'll gladly show you the facts.Your accusing me of propaganda while you can't even accurately ask a question.Without pointing out or refuting my points the argument is useless.Keep on hating the U.S.We'll be there when you need us.

Shadow Dragon

05-23-2002, 06:55 PM

Keep on hating the U.S.

Last time, extra slowly for you.

I DON'T hate the USA, but DO hate your arrogance and attitude and unwillingness to see and listen to other people.

We'll be there when you need us.

Like this statement.
I can assure you that I will never need your nor your countries assistance.

The Cold war is over, time for the Big Brother thing do die along with NATO and many other things that have become useless.

The rest of the World has done well without the USA for a long time and will continue to do so, regardless if you Guys got your finger in the pie or not.

We are NOT depending or in need of you, got that finally??

Middle East conflict won't be affected by US action, unless you control ALL sides by force. That is the reality.

You Guys can make a local, temporare impact at most.
It might seem important & good now, but in the long run not much will change.
And this is the self-delusion I am talking about.

At the moment there is only 1 Super Power left.
History shows that if there is only 1 of a type left, it becoms weaker and gets killed of by many smaller things, the other option it turns "imperial" and tries to take over/control the rest.
Personally, I see the later case developing right now.
So rather than wait for your extinction of power join forces and work along with others to mkae a difference like:
1.) Pollution control
2.) International War Tribunial( minus excemptions for US only)
3.) and so on.

Keep insisting on your superiority, power, might and in the long run it will affect you negatively and that is a given.

Or somebody will force you to walk the big talk we keep hearing.

If the USA is sooo good & powerfull, why don't they do more improve the World create World peace and so on.

But I see tht you are sooo powerfull that Hussein, Arafat, Castro, Sharon, bin Laden and the rest of the world cream their pants just hearing you talk.

Peace and out.

ewallace

05-23-2002, 07:04 PM

I DON'T hate the USA, but DO hate your arrogance and attitude and unwillingness to see and listen to other people.
Exactly what I was talking about.

Middle East conflict won't be affected by US action
That's funny. The Palestinan LEADER HIMSELF said that it can only be resolved with STRONG US intervention. Of course I am sure he will quickly change his mind once he has learned of the brilliance you have displayed on this thread.

Of course by applying your type of logic here I guess all Europeans are the whiney know-it-all type.

rogue

05-23-2002, 08:09 PM

Here's why you may need us in the future. (http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=115)

"The rest of the World has done well without the USA for a long time and will continue to do so, regardless if you Guys got your finger in the pie or not. "

Let's see if I remember my history correctly. Wasn't there something called the Marshall Plan (http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/marshall/) ?

Here's a map of the few countries that benefited from that. (http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/marshall/wholemap.jpg)

And as the Great American poet (http://www.history-of-rock.com/berryducktwo.jpg) wrote...

"I'm so glad I'm living in the USA
Yes I'm so glad I'm living in the USA
Anything you want we got it right here in the USA"

Hit it Chuck!!! :D

Oh well oh well I feel so good today
We just touched ground on an international runway
Jet-propelled back home from overseas to the USA

New York, Los Angeles
Oh how I yearn for you
Detroit, Chicago, Chattanooga, Baton Rouge
God I long to be at my home back in old St Lou

Did I miss the skyscrapers
Did I miss the long freeway
From the coast of California
To the shores of the Delaware Bay
You can bet your life I did
Till I got back to the USA

Looking hard for a drive-in
Searching for a corner cafe
Where hamburgers sizzle on an open grill night and day
Yeah, and the jukebox jumping with records back in the USA

I'm so glad I'm living in the USA
Yes I'm so glad I'm living in the USA
Anything you want we got it right here in the USA

Ah we're so glad we're living in the USA
Yes we're so glad we're living in the USA
Anything you want we got it right here in the USA

Ah we're so glad
We're so glad
Ah we're so glad
We're so glad

Back in the U.S.A.

written by Chuck Berry
© Arc Music Corp (BMI)

Serpent

05-23-2002, 10:33 PM

Shadow Dragon et al. You're wasting your time. It's like trying to teach a horse to say moo.

An English friend of mine told me a story once. He used to work in care for disabled kids, in the inner-city in the Midlands. One day there was a Harvest Festival celebration (which is a celebration of the treasures of the earth and people often donate food to the poor.)

So this guy had a basket of all sorts of fruit and vegetables and stuff in it. He had all the kids sitting round and was talking about nature and farming and so on. One kid pointed at the basket, to a potato, and said, "What's that?"

My friend picked up the potato and said, "This?"

The kid nodded.

So my friend held it up and said, "Who can tell me what this is?"

Every kid sat there silently, not knowing the answer.

"Well," my friend said, "it's a potato!"

Every kid there (about a dozen of them I think) all started hooting with laughter. Bemused, my friend calmed them down and said, "What's so funny?"

"That's not potato," answered one of the kids.

"It's not?"

"No," said the kid, his voice sounding like he thought my friend was an idiot. Then he explained. "Potato is white and kinda fluffy, like on a shepherd's pie!"

All the other kids were nodding, looking at my friend like he was a martian or something.

These kids weren't mentally disabled. They were physically disabled, from poor families. They'd never been outside the city and never got much education or information beyond the care home.

They weren't stupid, just drastically ill-informed. They had a paradigm, based on their own limited experience, and it never occurred to them that there was any more to it than that. After all, if there was more to know they'd know it. Right?

On the upside, my friend arranged a trip for them all to a farm and he says to this day that it's the best he's ever felt in his life, watching those kids seeing farming and animals and so on.

SifuAbel

05-24-2002, 12:06 AM

Looking back at the photo, which was the initial spark of this arguement. I see a snow sculpture depicting the pain of a people , NOT a government. Would it be propaganda if there were no american flag in his hands. Whose flag should it be then?

Chokey got the questions answered but the point here is that this sculpture was created to deal with the pain of loss, not to rally any more support for this war. We are in it with both feet. And we are not coming out until we get ours. Its one thing to wage a military war against a country its quite another to wage it at the civilian level. Bottom line, they chucked us a sucker punch in the eye; we are not just going to sit back and get another one.

Frankly, all I've read here is anti-american penile envy. Regergitated words drawn from regergitated sources. I personally never stated we are the best at anything. Its you guys that are in need of some regcognition. You have to feel good about something, being that the general apathy in your own countries are so high. Enjoy your comfort while you have it. Go ahead, support the downtrodened terrorists. But don't come crying to us when your "friends" bomb the bullocks out of your local pub.

We are not allowed to mourn? F uck you
We are not allowed to seek justice? F uck you

diego

05-24-2002, 01:51 AM

i mean we are all, reformed monkeys tossing around colored letterblocks!"

My bestfriend his pop i think is the firechief inspector for his division here in northvan canada, after 911 thier was the huge memorial for the NYEMS!. His boys and he went down thier for the service, and got to work a shift in the bronx for the night?.
Now the memorial was in a hockey stadium, possibly madison square"he told me this months ago", each division wich showed up from around the world was announced at the center of the Field. When my boys pops and his crew came up to say hi, thier name was stated, and the whole crowd acted like the hometeam scored a touchdown:D
in the monkey cage of our timeclock aint that some cool ****!!.

scotty1

05-24-2002, 02:01 AM

"They have plenty of cheese for all of your whine."

Good line.:)

On the subject of spectator violence, I think it's weird that football (soccer) attracts violent arseholes by the coach-load, but rugby attracts very little. My rugby following friends say the atmosphere outside Twickenham between opposing rugby fans is good.

On the subject of the subject I can't be arsed to get involved.

Shadow, not getting at you, but your style of arguing is really getting beat by everyone elses'. Point to some facts dude, or you're really only generalising.

There ARE concrete reasons why some countries hate the US (insensitive foreign/trade policy for example) but I really couldn't argue the point because I don't have the facts.

And saying that doesn't make me anti-American, anti-Western or pro-terrorist, its just a fact. People don't hate for no reason.

I think a major problem is the globalisation process, which on the pretext of creating wealth for developing countries creates a poverty trap for certain peoples in developing countries.

It's not just America doing it, it's Britain as well, and a lot of Europe.

Like Merry says, taking either extreme, is, well, extremist, and isn't that what we're supposed to be fighting against?

Your country and mine have both done, and continue to do some rather ****ty things to people we will never meet and probably never even hear about. That is a given.

I do think that these things are being used as an excuse by certain groups to justify killing 4,000 civilians, which is simply not on. Sucker punch is right.

If anyone should be upset with the US and UK it should be the factory workers in Special Economic Zones in Asia and South America for our trade policies keeping them in poverty.

Although, we have had a lot of involvement in Palestine/Israel issues. So I suppose we have a responsibility to help them sort their problems...

BTW, with some Arabs moaning about US military bases in Saudi Arabia, why were they built, for what war or purpose? I assumed it was to help the Saudis with something.

diego

05-24-2002, 02:19 AM

scotty1Special Economic Zones : Care to define, have not heard, YAHEARD
:)

wushu chik

05-24-2002, 02:41 AM

Well guys, for one, i think that this is totally sad. And for this reason. We have busted our asses, and lost a lot of family, friends, etc. to many of the wars which some of you say we weren't asked to fight in. I really think that you guys saying that you don't need the US or our help, should GO BACK and research your arguments before making them! You guys know who you are, i don't think i have to single you out any more than you already have been!

Again, Diego, thanks for the pics! i thought they were great!

~Wen~

scotty1

05-24-2002, 02:54 AM

I thnk that they are an industrial area set aside for mass production of Western goods for export. Companies like Gap, Nike, Reebok, Fruit of the Loom, basically anything which has a label use these zones.

Western companies have figured out that it is cheaper to get goods produced abroad and shipped than it is to pay wages in a Western country. Plus, workers in a Western country have to have things like Unions, rights and a decent living wage.

Workers in a SEZ are paid extremly low wages, often below the minimum living wage. They are forced to do overtime, at the same rate as normal hours. Except overtime is not 1 or 2 hours, it's 10.

When there is a big order to get done workers are expected to work all the extra hours necessary to get it done, and when there are no orders workers are sent home and not paid.

There are no unions allowed, and opposition to the cramped and overheated working conditions is crushed, sometimes with violence, more usually just sacked. Obviously there are no industrial tribunals or unfair dismissal claims.

The Western company in question will tour the globe looking for the lowest costs offered, which means SEZ in different countries and different factories in the same country will have to compete for business, which means who can do the job whilst paying the lowest wages and providing the lowest standards of working conditions, ultimately.

Many workers are housed in accomodation above the factory or in blocks in the SEZ. You can guess how inviting these are, and they are usually firetraps. In fact, I don't know the figures, but there are a large number of deaths by these **** holes burning down every year, after the factories catch alight from poorly maintained equipment.

This is all driven by greed, and what I think we should all realize - for it applies to the whole America being bad issue - is that it takes two to tango. The Western company wants low costs, and is prepared to turn a blind eye to the conditions which materialize into huge profits. Of course, none of this could happen without the factory owners and business men who are prepared to exploit their fellow country men to make a few bucks.

One could not do what is being done without the support of the other.

Do a search for John Pilger on a search engine, and be prepared to read a bit. Some of what you will find may be far left BS but most things written by the man himself on this subject are worth reading.

It is business and government that people hate about the West.
And by extension, the people for not keeping their governments in check. But how realistic is that?

if you're looking for answers on why people in developing countries hate the West you could do a lot worse than look at John Pilger's website. Plus he has written a load of essays, more than one is probably on that subject.

Another name to look out for is Naomi Klein, author of No Logo.
Although some of her writing was a bit weak, I found.

Thank you.

:)

dezhen2001

05-24-2002, 03:34 AM

Scotty: another good day at work for ya i see :D
I had a quick skim of some stuff there - pretty interesting :)

david

scotty1

05-24-2002, 03:57 AM

Mate I'm a temp and the company I work for has just told us that they won't be renewing temp contracts, as we're surplus to requirements. As evidenced by my post count.

I might go work on a building site as a labourer, good money, bit of excercise, out in the sun. No KFO though.

rogue

05-24-2002, 04:57 AM

scotty1

05-24-2002, 05:29 AM

"One thing I find odd about Europeans is that they think they're the center of the world. "

That's a bit of a generalization isn't it?

Its also the number one charge brought by some Euros about Americans.

That has been refuted vehemently by the Americans obviously, and with good reason. So if it's not OK for Euros to stereotype Yanks, whay is it OK for Yanks to do the same to Euros?

You expect to get away with shooting it straight back?

Come on Rogue, you can do better than that.
:)

"Many Americans do visit other countries on a regular basis. We go to Carribean countries, Mexico, Central and South American countries (which Euros don't ever mention) and even Canada. Just because someone hasn't stopped by anywhere east of Greenwhich doesn't mean we haven't seen poverty or other cultures."

Fair enough point. But you could have made it without weakening your argument with a stupid sweeping comment like "One thing I find odd about Europeans is that they think they're the center of the world."

Some of you slander Europe like its one big country. Its not.

Whatever you choose to say about overly liberal Europeans, do not say it in a way that includes me please.

dezhen2001

05-24-2002, 05:29 AM

it is strange how the world uses GMT though :D just joshing :D

I think these sweeping generalisations of people are a load of crock. Everyone is different. Different experiences lead to different outlooks on things. Poverty is everywhere, and with such a multi-cultural country such as the US (and even the UK), i think we can easily experience other cultures and environments anytime we like.

the main thing is to keep an open mind if u ask me.

Scotty: good luck with ur job man - i spend far 2 much time here also :D

david

black and blue

05-24-2002, 06:01 AM

I don’t want to sound pedantic, but talking of Americans travelling to Canada is rather like talking of the English going to Scotland. My earlier comments where about American attitude that’s all. I think America, and Canada too :), to be wonderful countries.

That said, approximately 5 per cent of Americans hold a passport, and like I said previously, their “dumbed-down” attitude towards world events is a direct consequence of one-side media and educational programmes. I once had an argument with an American over the West’s involvement in Kosovo and Bosnia. When I asked him to tell me where Kosovo was, he had no bloody idea.

Many people adding to this thread talk about the great the US has done abroad (some of it ‘has’ been great), but I wonder if those same people even know where various countries in the world are! Someone spoke about vital US intervention in the Middle East (lets not start on the Billions of $ the US gives to Israel to feed its military expansion). Would love to see some of you guys point out this region on a map with no country names :) . (Take no offence, I'm just taking the p*ss :p )

Here, to lighten the tone, are some comments from Travel Agents dealing with Americans wishing to travel…

I got a call from a woman who wanted to go to Capetown. I started to explain the length of the flight and the passport information when she interrupted me with "I'm not trying to make you look stupid, but Capetown is in Massachusetts. "Without trying to make her look like the stupid one, I calmly explained, "Capecod is in Massachusetts, Capetown is in Africa." Her response ... click.

I just got off the phone with a man who asked, "How do I know which plane to get on?" I asked him what exactly he meant, which he replied, "I was told my flight number is 823, but none of these darn planes have numbers on them."

"A woman called and said, "I need to fly to Pepsi-cola on one of those computer planes." I asked if she meant to fly to Pensacola on a commuter plane. She said, "Yeah, whatever."
:p

ewallace

05-24-2002, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by scotty1
On the subject of spectator violence, I think it's weird that football (soccer) attracts violent arseholes by the coach-load, but rugby attracts very little. My rugby following friends say the atmosphere outside Twickenham between opposing rugby fans is good.

I think it's because rugby has enough violence in the game to quench that thirst. Although if this theory was true then American baseball games would be a lot more interesting.

And saying that doesn't make me anti-American, anti-Western or pro-terrorist, its just a fact. People don't hate for no reason.
Exactly. This is a healthy, level-headed debate.

Your country and mine have both done, and continue to do some rather ****ty things to people we will never meet and probably never even hear about. That is a given.

No arguments there. We are DEFINITELY not perfect nor anywhere near, but I wholeheartedly believe we usually have good intentions. I am tired of hearing the conspiracy theories about hidden agendas by our government. THEY ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH.

If anyone should be upset with the US and UK it should be the factory workers in Special Economic Zones in Asia and South America for our trade policies keeping them in poverty.

Absolute truth.

Great post scotty1.

Merryprankster

05-24-2002, 07:09 AM

Quick history lesson--or more precisely, why history is a good thing to know.

Look at the periods of industrialization in the US and England. Look at the wages, rights and hours of the poor, ie factory workers, during those time periods.

Now look at the wages, rights and hours of the factory workers in poor countries.

History has shown us that the eventual result of industrialization is:

1. Increased wealth for the general populace--which leads to:
2. Increased education levels--which combined with #1 leads to:
3. The formation of a middle class--which leads to:
4. Demand for proper wages, rights, and treatment for workers.

I've never understood this "globalization hurts people" thing. I think it's grand in the long run and will ultimately benefit the entire state of humanity.

My point is that while the exploitation of the poor and therefore powerless is nothing new, and we SHOULD speak out against it, the socio-economic reality of the situation is such that the countries and the poor that are being "taken advantage of," would rather be working in a Nike factory than out on the street--much like their US and British counterparts in the late 19th and early 20th century.

Once again--shockingly--it's a mixed bag.

scotty1

05-24-2002, 07:35 AM

How can it ultimately benefit humanity when the whole point of it is to trade with the places with the lowest wages?

In the absence of SEZ alternatives to being on the street would be found in the locality, infrastructure put in place for self sufficiency, perhaps.

As long as a select few are making money from the trade of the West, on the back of the workers there will be no real need for that kind of structure.

I'm kind of busy at the mo so that's just off the top of my head.

scotty1

05-24-2002, 07:46 AM

Just for interest:

http://www.zmag.org/pilgercalam.htm

Not saying I agree with all of it, because I don't, and I'm certainly not saying that the bits I do agree with justify an attack on civilians.

Just putting it out there as this is what the world hates us for, apparently. Yes, US. As in the West, not just America.

Merryprankster

05-24-2002, 07:50 AM

Scotty--You're correct, in the short run, but in the long run, I really don't feel it's an accurate model.

What you are describing as far as a select few making money on the backs of the poor is EXACTLY what was taking place during the US and UK's period of industrialization--eventually, the higher standard of living brought about by this industrialization created a more educated middle class that DEMANDED unionization, better treatment, and wages, etc. This is what I'm getting at. I'm hardly a marxist in the sense of the inevitability of history, but I'm certainly cognizant of socio-economics as a powerful force in history, and when I can draw analogies, between events, I will. To me, this is almost identical to the situation that came before, and is likely to yield similar outcomes in the form of increased overall wealth, education, and ultimately the formation of a middle class that insists on proper treatment of its workers.

The companies are unlikely to move the factories to an even poorer country BEFORE this happens because of the significant amount of negotiations, material and financial investment, etc involved. In other words, they will only move the factories AFTER there start to be "problems," with unions and the like--and by the time that has happened, you've already got a developed middle class that has some other options than working in that factory.

Doesn't mean that it will be an easy ride, and it doesn't mean that those of us on the outside looking in shouldn't continue to speak out against poor treatment of workers.

scotty1

05-24-2002, 07:58 AM

"The companies are unlikely to move the factories to an even poorer country BEFORE this happens because of the significant amount of negotiations, material and financial investment, etc involved."

The factories are smi permanent set ups all over the world. It is no hassle for a large company to take their business elsewhere.

I understand what you are saying about the end result of this process.

But it sems to me to suck that it has to happen this way.:(

Merryprankster

05-24-2002, 08:09 AM

Scotty--it IS a hassle if there is no reason to do it. A company isn't going to move its factory prior to the factory becoming an inconvenience. Make sense? That's a very real cost, and you have to justify that cost to shareholders, the market, the board of directors, etc. To up and move a decently profitable factory that has had no problems to date would be considered an unusual move, at best, and an outright waste of money at worst, unless you could show that the rewards would outweigh the risks--and quite frankly, the rewards would have to seriously outweight the risks to just do it all over again, somewhere else, if the factory wasn't having a problem.

scotty1

05-24-2002, 08:16 AM

I dunno dude, surely if the same products can be produced at a lower cost elsewhere then that is reason enough to move the production elsewhere. its not like they've got contracts with the workers or anything.

this is how we keep driving the costs and the wages down.

Good night everyone, and have fun over the weekend.

Don't be too imperialistic now.;) :D

rogue

05-24-2002, 10:04 AM

"Many workers are housed in accomodation above the factory or in blocks in the SEZ. You can guess how inviting these are, and they are usually firetraps. In fact, I don't know the figures, but there are a large number of deaths by these **** holes burning down every year, after the factories catch alight from poorly maintained equipment."
Scotty you just described the plight of the US worker 90-120 years ago.

"You expect to get away with shooting it straight back?"
Well it was worth a try! :)

Denzen
"That said, approximately 5 per cent of Americans hold a passport,"

Once again America is big and varied, we have two Disney parks for crying out load. Their isn't much need to leave the country. Also in the distance I travel to my Moms, I would have passed through two European countries.

"and like I said previously, their dumbed-down attitude towards world events is a direct consequence of one-side media and educational programmes."
Dumbed down and one-sided? Do you know how many newspapers, cable news channels and magazines we have? Heck I even watch the House of Commons on c-span, which is much more fun than a US Senate hearing.

"I once had an argument with an American over the West’s involvement in Kosovo and Bosnia. When I asked him to tell me where Kosovo was, he had no bloody idea."
OK without a map where is Roanoke VA, Albany NY, and Brownsville TX

dezhen2001

05-24-2002, 10:12 AM

Actually none of that was me, but never mind :) I'm nowhere near as intelligent as that! lol

david

diego

05-24-2002, 10:24 AM

Scotty1, im going to do that search innabit, When did this policy start in america, the 70s?.
Do you know, i would think not much earlier, as they were all about thier chevy and american pride, i also wonder how much business in america is actually american, i would bank most is owned by foriegn like japanese, and good ol rednecks.:)

red5angel

05-24-2002, 10:49 AM

Scotty1, please tell me you dont agree with that gentleman that you posted the link to?
The more I read this article the more I want to meet this guy. If this werent a free country and I believe a place the world sould be partially modeled after, I would hunt him down and stomp his guts out for being a over-sympathetic and ignorant azz.

I am sick of this whole Aerica deserved it, or was asking for it. I wonder how many americans in those towers were campaigning against muslims or Islam? I wonder how many of them were dropping bombs on Iraq? Iran? Palestine? I wonder how many of those people killed on those buildings and those planes really felt like we shoudl be oppressing the rest of the world?

Liokault

05-24-2002, 10:59 AM

One thing I find odd about Europeans is that they think they're the center of the world. Many Americans do visit other countries on a regular basis. We go to Carribean countries, Mexico, Central and South American countries (which Euros don't ever mention) and even Canada. Just because someone hasn't stopped by anywhere east of Greenwhich doesn't mean we haven't seen poverty or other cultures.

Little story about Americans abroud.

My Canadian girlfriend and my-self (an English guy) stood at the top of the Eiffel tower in paris.

We are in the line to catch the elivator (lift) down when an American family PUSH into the line in front of us ...they look around and one says in a loud voice "well its ok but its not putting a man on the moon"

I pointed out to them that not only did they push into the line infront of us but that putting a man on the moon was one of Germanys greatest achivements after WW2.

red5angel

05-24-2002, 11:14 AM

I am not sure Liokault what the point was, Americans are the only people to have put people on our moon, unless Germany has its own moon?

Really guys we could go back and forth all day like this. I spent alo to fitme in other countries and I really havent seen anything that generally isnt like everywhere else to some degree or another. Look around peeps, it is not about nationality it is about human beings.

Merryprankster

05-24-2002, 03:02 PM

red5,

Liokault is making a cute argument that the Germans put the man on the moon because a good number of their rocket scientists (literally!) jumpstarted the American Space program.

That's ok. I'll just make Portugal responsible for the slavery in America, and France responsible for the transistor. Same-same.

Liokault

05-24-2002, 03:28 PM

Im glad you understood....but im not suprised red5angel did not....kind of ironic........and it was a true story to.

rogue

05-24-2002, 05:51 PM

I miss good old Werner von Braun. From the stories I can gather one thing, all the smart Americans stay here and the dumb ones travel abroad. :D

NYerRoman

05-25-2002, 09:58 AM

Ok. It seems that the many people still fail to realize what the **** is going on.
What happened in September is a result of a foreign policy not thought out. It is a result of an arrogant attitude of a superpower thinking it can dictate who gets a US base, who rules a country and how quickly can we put in that oil pipeline.

It's Buddhist cause and effect.

Here's why I, a NYer who was there for the attack on the Twin Towers, am not buying the hype.

Bush's oil partner: Salem Bin Laden

Chevron built up Central Asian in the 90s (along with others). Who ran Chevron in the 90s?: Condoleeza Rice.

Who negotiated with the Taleban in the 90s up until the attack to build the two pipelines?: Clinton and Bush.

Who benefitted from the same financial supporters of Osama? The Carlyle Group (Baker, Sunnunu, Carlucci - ex. Sec. of Defense, Darman - ex. director of Manag. and Budget) all Bush Sr. staff.

Who was on the Board of the Carlyle Group subsidiary, Caterair, receiving the same money from those who finance Osama? George W. Bush

Saudis and the Bush's have been in business for decades. The same people who finance the Islamic bullies.

Who told the Taleban in August 2001 "We're freezing your funds and supporting the reinstatement of the King"? George W. Bush

Now, that day ripped my heart out. But I have a big, huge problem with the US political and business establishment who now inondate us with US propaganda images and flags waving in our faces. Screw them. I'm done being their expendable target.

It goes so much deeper people. We could have learned a valuable lesson that day. We should have stopped, thought about how we are running this world, and begun to make a change. Of course, we opted for war. Nothing changed and things are going to get worse. And it will get worse.

Not everyone wants Coca Cola and Hollywood films. Not everyone loves Nike sneakers. Not everyone wants a McDonalds in the neighborhood. Get it?

If you want to believe they're evil and we're good and HOW COULD THEY HAVE DONE THIS TO US?, then sit like saps and watch the news that tells you what the government wants you to hear. Dan Rather appeared on the BBC last week and said the US is living in a period of extreme censure and government propaganda. The US always has. It's worse. Wake up people and start thinking for yourselves.

People are dying and we're circulating NYC fireman snowmen with an angel. Those poor guys are dead and I certainly am not letting their deaths turned into a propaganda piece. I'm ****ed off for them and their families.

Buddha is turning in his grave.
peace

Merryprankster

05-25-2002, 11:53 AM

Liokault

05-25-2002, 01:21 PM

The Freemasons are agents of the devil...

But that ones true.....every one knows that freemasons are evil.

NYerRoman

05-25-2002, 06:02 PM

Merryprankster,

? What is it you said? You could have found this in the Wall Street Journal a long time ago. Plus do some research in European papers.
Try English, French, and Italian.

Don't make it out to be a conspiracy theorist thing. That too is simplistic. Go to bed and sleep well thinking the US is good and they're bad. Try not to think so hard. You might realize something.

Merryprankster

05-25-2002, 07:14 PM

NYerRoman--

Is the US foreign policy the perfect model of humanitarian even-handedness? Nope--and I'll admit that.

But here's the difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying:

You:
What happened in September is a RESULT (emphasis mine) of a foreign policy not thought out. It is a RESULT (emphasis mine) of an arrogant attitude of a superpower thinking it can dictate who gets a US base, who rules a country and how quickly can we put in that oil pipeline.

Me: What happenned in September is the RESULT of A set of individuals constructing a plan, training, and recieving funding under the auspices of a terrorist organization headed by Osama Bin Laden, and then MAKING A CHOICE to turn 3 airplanes into guided missles.

Catching the drift yet pal? You're talking about "things," like a base and a pipeline. I'm talking about premeditated mass murder.

Newsflash!!!: US foreign policy is NOT responsible for the CHOICES of those individuals or the beliefs of Osama and his cronies. It might be responsible--to some degree, but not solely-for the creation of an environment that allows persons like Osama to gain and weild power, but it is not ultimately responsible for 9/11. You might also discuss the environment created by a Wahabbi upbringing and a strict interpretation of shar'iah in Saudi Arabia--or perhaps their remarkably nepotist and corrupt government--or the invasion of Afghanistan by the USSR. Shall we blame it on the Russians for directly creating an unstable environment in which Al Qaeda and a despotic regime could take root and flourish?

Heck, why don't we just go back to the beginning--9/11 is the direct result of the philosophical and religious conflict between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael? It's Abraham's fault--he should never have had children or left the city of Ur.

Are you next going to tell me that rapists are the "result" of their unfortunate childhood upbringing, rather than being individually responsible for the atrocities they have committed on their victims?

Ah yes--none of this ever would have happenned if they had just hugged Jimmy a little more when he was younger. So it's really not his fault you see. It's society's fault for not promoting his self-worth ate an earlier age. So that woman, who had a disagreement with him earlier, was contributing to his low self-esteem and that fueled his emotions which lead to the violent act we're discussing now.

You're going to have to do better than that, I'm afraid.

Oh hey--quick hint--not too many people exist at the top of the big oil world, so it's not surprising to me that there are some connections. Welcome to the wonderful world of international finance, oil and banking.

At any rate, it's refreshing to know that I am no longer responsible for my actions, and that I can blame other people the next time I decide to slit somebody's throat because I don't like the way they live.

rogue

05-25-2002, 10:30 PM

Chevron built up Central Asian in the 90s (along with others). Who ran Chevron in the 90s?: Condoleeza Rice.

"Rice's professional activities since returning to Stanford have not been limited to the university. She cofounded the Center for a New Generation, an after-school academy in East Palo Alto, California, and is a corporate board member for Chevron, the Hewlett Foundation, and Charles Schwab. In addition, Rice is a member of J.P. Morgan's international advisory council."

Who negotiated with the Taleban in the 90s up until the attack to build the two pipelines?: Clinton and Bush.

Care to provide any verifiable proof? Care to provide proof to any of your statements using a reliable source?

"Not everyone wants Coca Cola and Hollywood films. Not everyone loves Nike sneakers. Not everyone wants a McDonalds in the neighborhood. Get it?"

I get it, but what about a bunch of a-holes who wish us gone for wanting Coke, Nike's and Hollywood movies? Do you get the term "global jihad"?

Other folks who deserved IT or had IT coming for one reason or another.

The Chinese deserved the Rape of Nanking.
The 6 million Russians that Stalin murdered.
The Palestinians
The victims of the Taleban
Shondra Levy
John Lennon
Those awful students in Teneman Square.
The people in Jonestown.
The Titanic
Six million Jews in WWII
The people of Cambodia
All the ****sexuals who died of AIDS
Martin Luther King
Ghandi
The Iraqi Kurds
The whole country of Somalia

diego

05-26-2002, 12:12 AM

What happenned in September is the RESULT of A set of individuals constructing a plan, training, and recieving funding under the auspices of a terrorist organization headed by Osama Bin Laden, and then MAKING A CHOICE to turn 3 airplanes into guided missles.

Catching the drift yet pal? You're talking about "things," like a base and a pipeline. I'm talking about premeditated mass murder.

Newsflash!!!: US foreign policy is NOT responsible for the CHOICES of those individuals or the beliefs of Osama and his cronies. It might be responsible--to some degree, but not solely-for the creation of an environment that allows persons like Osama to gain and weild power, but it is not ultimately responsible for 9/11. You might also discuss the environment created by a Wahabbi upbringing and a strict interpretation of shar'iah in Saudi Arabia--or perhaps their remarkably nepotist and corrupt government--or the invasion of Afghanistan by the USSR. Shall we blame it on the Russians for directly creating an unstable environment in which Al Qaeda and a despotic regime could take root and flourish?

Heck, why don't we just go back to the beginning--9/11 is the direct result of the philosophical and religious conflict between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael? It's Abraham's fault--he should never have had children or left the city of Ur.

NYerRoman

05-26-2002, 03:28 AM

Ok. You people really need to wake up and smell it. You are caught in the middle of the act, and not the reasons. If you want to believe that they hate us for simplistic reasons, be the saps and sleep well at night.

MERRY:
What happenned in September is the RESULT of A set of individuals constructing a plan, training, and recieving funding under the auspices of a terrorist organization headed by Osama Bin Laden, and then MAKING A CHOICE to turn 3 airplanes into guided missles.

Premeditated murder - Yes it was. I never said it wasn't. You argue poorly. Their acts were atrocious. But you're missing the point, PAL. Do you know what US policy is in Central Asia? Learn about it and then we'll talk.

DIEGO:
Stop being so dramatic. Going back to Abraham? Come on. Be realistic. There are reasons. We need oil. Our economy depends on it. Instead of energy alternatives, we chose to drill in the Alaska nature reserves. Why? Oil lobby and money.

ROGUE:
If somone discovers that an incident like Sept. 11 has a clouded and intricate background, that person is not negating history and its crimes against humanity. Get real and stop the stupid comments. No one deserves to die.
That is a simplistic and immature way of arguing. Because oil ****heads and ignorant religious zealots can't come to an agreement on a pipeline from Central Asia (WE CANNOT BUILD IT THROUGH IRAN) and one attacks the other and vice versa (US cruise missles), WE THE CIVILIANS AND INNOCENT ONES SUFFER.
Get it now?

If you want sources, look on the net, look at European papers, look at LA VERITE' INDERDITE in French or translated into Italian LA VERITA' NEGATA. I don't know if it was translated into English. The authors are a French journalist and a corporate investigator - Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie'.
I SUGGEST READING FOR ALL Noam Chomsky 9/11 and ALL his other works as well. You get a different perspective. Something beyond the corporate news on TV.
Read Gore Vidal.
Read Le Monde (if you speak French) and do a search in back editions.
Mostly, look for it. It's out there.

Dan Rather gave the interview on the BBC last week. Look for that interview. He says some pretty interesting things which are quite damaging to the who political and news institutions.

Ok. IN BRIEF PEOPLE. Sept. 11th was horrible. But there is more to it than the simple explanation of them vs. us. It has to be put that way. I am an international specialist. What was said regarding what happened in the news regarding the US point of view WAS TEXT BOOK government communication...i.e. propaganda. Those people should be alive today. Those 8000 plus Afgan civilians should be alive.

This "war" will bring on more violence.
peace.

NYerRoman

05-26-2002, 03:29 AM

But isn't it funny how after the years pass, the truth starts coming out and the "conspiracy theorists" become those who just knew and anticipated it all. Think of the Iraq/Kuwait war. Remember it was about oil. But if you said it at the time you were un-patriotic.

Liokault

05-26-2002, 04:04 AM

diego

05-26-2002, 04:07 AM

Nah pick up times issue with osama on the cover this one ladie wrote how thier is so much hate in the muslim community towards the western christians, i was laughing with his point on abe, maybe it wasnt him but alot of the history since then relates to old tribal/religious tensions and heavily relates to how those in power manipulate thier masses! the time article you can map how christians defeated muslims a thousand years ago upto current bosnia tragedy. i dont feel like typing that section out right now, so peace

Liokault

05-26-2002, 04:20 AM

Well the main thing is that the folks in Afghanistan can now eat Mc Donalds and get a really great oil pipe line.....I hear they always wanted a nice oil pipe line anyway.

diego

05-26-2002, 04:23 AM

yes but whos in charge of the shaft?, HUH

ged

05-26-2002, 04:54 AM

people much wiser than me have said 'as always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle'.

but, as everyone really knows, the truth lies somewhere in australia.

Merryprankster

05-26-2002, 08:44 AM

ged--exactly my point!

The unrest in the region, is, among OTHER FACTORS, partially due to US policy. The hatred many people in the region show towards the US is, among OTHER FACTORS, partially due to US policy.

To say that these policies contribute to some degree to the environment that allows terrorist groups to survive and flourish is perfectly acceptable.

For NYerRoman to argue that US policy is the REASON the attacks took place is fallacious at best and utter bull**** in closer likelihood. It's not "simple cause and effect." It's a confluence of events that set the background, but ultimately the CHOICE of specific individuals.

Oh yeah, just for the record, I'm familiar with both Central Asia, the religious and ethnic make-up and the US interests in the region. Would you like to discuss the destabilization of the region created by artificial boundaries set up during the collapse of the colonial empires--which did NOTHING to mitigate tribal tensions from Syria to India and interfered with Nomadic lifestyles to the Nth degree? Or perhaps you would like to discuss how Soviet influence "welded" together disparate tribal and religious interests in its central asian territories only to have them fragment horribly upon dissolution of the USSR? Call an Uzbek a Tajik and see how quickly (and possibly violently in some palces) you get corrected.

You're very good at placing blame but we'll just forget about the history involved that had next to nothing to do with the US that also contributed to this mess.

Just because you're abroad doesn't give you a monopoly on accurate information. But I'm glad you feel more enlightened now that you have daily exposure to European sensibilities. Feel free to lump me in with the sheeple if you like, but I'm sorry you don't like that I disagree with your interpretation of events.

Merryprankster

05-26-2002, 09:06 AM

Oh hell--that's simple.

I save him, immediately radio appropriate allied forces my position and that I have THE MAN after restraining him, and take a pulitzer prize winning photo of him as they detain his ass.

DelicateSound

05-26-2002, 10:08 AM

Not wanting to post on here but Rogue, what the HELL was this:

Once again America is big and varied, we have two Disney parks for crying out load. Their isn't much need to leave the country. Also in the distance I travel to my Moms, I would have passed through two European countries.

Do you actually believe that?!! You believe that a trip to a commercialised entertainment park holds more value than experincing the cultural diversity of another nation?

"I once had an argument with an American over the West’s involvement in Kosovo and Bosnia. When I asked him to tell me where Kosovo was, he had no bloody idea."
OK without a map where is Roanoke VA, Albany NY, and Brownsville TX

I have to say that a LOT [not all] of Americans are quite ignorant of the rest of the world. A lot of it is due to CNN et al. I feel that a lot of Europeans are more multicultural in their views. This may be due to a lesser national identity, I'm not 100% on that. I'm not saying it's bad to be proud of your nation, sometimes I wish we flew the George's Cross.

And on the subject, I could tell you where Roanoke and Brownsville are, and I've been to Albany. :)

Diego - the sculptures were a great tribute. I also had to double-take.

NYerRoman

05-26-2002, 10:45 AM

Oh Merry....

When diplomacy is used amongst nations respecting cultural, historical, ethnic and religious differences, you obtain a peaceful detante.

You know what happens when you don't. I would be glad to discuss it all with you. They CHOSE to attack the US because of US interference in the region. There were the Soviets prior and the English before that, etc.

But recently...the last ten years...think about it.

Therefore, I am not preceaching bull****. Hard to swallow, eh? We were wounded. It is time we take a step back and think about how the world is being run by corporations and big money lobbyists.

You want to argue it, private me and I'll set up a call conference if you wish.
If not, peace bro.

guohuen

05-26-2002, 10:48 AM

Don't you just love how the large multinational corparations have have most of us believing that everything is someone else's fault. The layers of secrecy protecting the true owners of these companies is mind boggling. Even the IRS and various state tax agencies can't really unravel it. They're just happy to get some money out them. Meanwhile the average people of ----------- (fill in your nationality here) take the blame and the retribution. They are the masters of the dog and pony show. Don't forget to vote for or support your favorite politician/political party or cause. And pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. "I am the great Oz!"
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."-Mark Twain

CD Lee

05-26-2002, 11:27 AM

Posted by Shadow Dragon

I don't need to answer your questions.

Because the answers are common knowledge, but by the looks of it to everybody except you and some other Americans that keep humbing that "American Dream" and delusion of how big and grand you Guys are.

Most of what you stated in your Post is propaganda and NOT true or even based on real facts.

America has a lot of good and grand things, but for every good thing you invent you also import 1 or 2 things from other Countries. Accept that and move on.

But keep dreaming your dreams and living your lives believing those facts yourself.

I knew he could not answer! He will NOT tell anyone what country he is from, and he will not answer any questions that require real facts. His questions are complete generalizations, so that none can be answered by statistical facts, because he refuses to qualify his questions into specifics.

Shadow, you have NO answers. You are nothing more than propaganda, with no real facts. ANSWER THE FRIGGIN QUESTIONS. WHERE THE **** are you from...COUNTRY?????????
Scared we will talk about your crappy little country like you talk about ours, with no facts to back it up?

DelicateSound

05-26-2002, 11:40 AM

Calm it Mr. Lee - had to be a Texan eh? :p

It's pretty irrelevant where he's from to be honest. This has mutated into a discussion on the political policies of the United States. If you want, I can easily find you figures and evidence to support his viewpoint, it's a widely known fact.

That's not to say that the USA is a bad nation, just that like all it has it's faults. It's foreign policy sucks more than most. Most Americans really are blinded by propaganda, big style.Not a bad thing, just a dumb one.

However, most of the people are OK, I know from 1st hand experience, and at the end of the day it is the people that make the country.

Doesn't change the fact that the rest of the world laughs behind your back. Suck it up.

CD Lee

05-26-2002, 12:01 PM

Not everyone wants Coca Cola and Hollywood films. Not everyone loves Nike sneakers. Not everyone wants a McDonalds in the neighborhood. Get it?

Bullsh1t. Economics. If they don't want it, don't let us put it in their neighborhood. But most important, DON'T BUY IT. Ohhh, but they do buy it, because they WANT IT.

Just like us Americans, always saying we hate all of our labor going to cheap foreign markets, yet, we ***** and moan about high prices, and flock to the lowest prices, when we know it is made in another country.

There is talk, and then there is action. And when McDonalds sells that crapy food overseas, it is because the locals are buying it, plain and simple. So YES, they DO want the Mc Donalds, and the Nike shoes, and the Levis. Why else would they buy that sh)t?

DelicateSound

05-26-2002, 12:11 PM

You'll find Mr.Lee that you are the one generalising, refusing to respond to posts and being ignorant of other peoples viewpoints.

Exploitation of LEDC's is a fact, not an opinion. People in these countries buy McDonalds as it is the cheapest, because of how badly it is made.

As for Nike, the people that actually MAKE these trainers would have to save over a years salary to afford a pair. Is that fair?

You have a choice these days between Nike, Reebok, Adidas and Fila basically. Which would you prefer, Nike made in Taiwan for $1.00 a week, or Reebok's made in Bangkok for $1.20 a week?

I do wear Nike. What is the point in boycotting? One person will make no difference at all, and after all they are good trainers.

This is the attitude of most people. They don't want a McDonalds on their tropical island, but they have neither the will, the manpower or the strength to overpower the global enterprise.

Look at good companies like Gibson guitars, that is an example of how to do business, protecting endangered woods on condition that a small percentage of that can be turned into a product. That is good.

How much does Bill Gates give to charity per year? Not as much as me I bet. And I'm not talking about % either.

Merryprankster

05-26-2002, 12:32 PM

NYerRoman--

I tell you what--how about instead I tone down my rhetoric :) I tend to get a LITTLE overzealous when I argue--not inflamed with passion--just a little overbearing.

I accept that US policy contributed to some extent to the current situation that allows terrorist groups to function. I do NOT accept that 9/11 was the direct result of US policy. I simply think the issue is far bigger than that.

So basically, I agree with a great deal of what you are saying, only I believe it needs to be qualified--and quite a bit.

DelicateSound

05-26-2002, 12:41 PM

Just ignorant I guess.....................

CD Lee

05-26-2002, 01:10 PM

You'll find Mr.Lee that you are the one generalising, refusing to respond to posts and being ignorant of other peoples viewpoints.

Exploitation of LEDC's is a fact, not an opinion. People in these countries buy McDonalds as it is the cheapest, because of how badly it is made.

Fair enough. Nobody has asked me a direct question so far, so I have nothing to respond to. However, Shadow, who is a closet Euro scared to admitt his country because he cannot defend himself, is the one who has avoided the simple quiestions. I want to see clarification on his questions, so they can be answered in an intelligent fashion, not in a general one. That is why these threads go south so fast. Questions such as, "how come so many countries have better education than the US?" What a stupid question begging for a generally stupid reply. How about WHICH COUNTRY SPECIFICALLY has better education, and what type of education are we talking about? Primary, secondary, graduate, against what criteria? Such as per capita, region, demographic group? Based on scores, participation, percentages or total passing? Without a real question, all you can get for an answer is " Uh-Huh, we have better stuff than 'yall do over there".

Shadow is a troll. He brings up subjects in a gerneral manner, then will not clarify nor participate in followup, but rather makes new general accusations.

Now if you want to start taking his side, fine, you are a real man. You can start by clarifying some of his general questions, but you need to get the question to a specific nature. Otherwise, we will denegrate into the same sh1t we always see

CD Lee

05-26-2002, 01:18 PM

Exploitation of LEDC's is a fact, not an opinion. People in these countries buy McDonalds as it is the cheapest, because of how badly it is made.

Ok. Lets start here. Yes there is absolutely exploitation. However, as I said actions speak louder than words. Nobody openly wants evil, yet we all at some time do evil. Take the cheaper McDonalds. Yes it is sh1t. And cheaper, but also due to economies of scale, not only ingredients. However, if it can produce enough revenue in a market, then there is enought LOCAL DEMAND to support it. Money talks. Nobody is arresting these people and making them buy the food from McD. You sound like a liberal. Ohhh, these poor people MUST eat McDonalds because it is cheaper. And these people ate WHAT BEFORE MCDonalds showed up on their soil? Were they all dying because Mc Donalds was not there with food everyone could afford???? They buy it because, for whatever reason, they want to buy it.

Nike shoes? You cannot tell me these other countries have to buy Nike shoes. They buy them because the LOCAL POPULACE DEMANDS THE PRODUCT.

When you as a consumer, go to a retail market, you cannot know the cost infrasturctures or routes of product distribution that has gone into the cost of finished goods. You cannot know those numbers on most everything you buy. So what rules at market time, where the normal joe buys, is supply and demand, and value.

Richie

05-26-2002, 03:06 PM

I really hope that the powers that be stop this thread. I am tired of reading this crap. Dummies trying to sound smart. Oh yeah, and other fools who when to a website or picked up a news paper and try to school others in world events is also becoming trying. These are the dummies who always asks the dumb questions in their Community college classes and p!sses the teacher off. Just let this one die.

CD Lee

05-26-2002, 03:32 PM

Richie,

With all due respect, you don't know everybody. I have just a tad more education than junior college. In any case, I agree with you about dumb people trying to sound smart. However, I like to ask specifics of them, to see how far down the hole goes. It is funny to see how shallow the hole is. It can be a nice change of pace too.

Richie

05-26-2002, 03:40 PM

Don't get me wrong CD. I'm not putting myself on a high horse, but some of these guys need to stop.

respectmankind

05-26-2002, 03:48 PM

The world is but one country and mankind its citizens : a simple concept like this would solve alot of this hollow bull****.

rogue

05-26-2002, 04:06 PM

NYerRoman,
"Ok. You people really need to wake up and smell it. You are caught in the middle of the act, and not the reasons. If you want to believe that they hate us for simplistic reasons, be the saps and sleep well at night."

I've been following terrorism since the very late 70's, with the South Moluccan terrorists in Holland being the first I was aware of and the Iran Revolution Hostages. That's before the WTC attack, the one in 93. So I didn't wake up on 9/11 and stand in shock that it happened. If you want to believe that they hate us for reasons more complicated than conflicting value systems, be a sap and stay awake thinking about them. In the end when someone, be they mugger or terrorists, comes after you the reasons don't mean a thing.

"If you want sources, look on the net, look at European papers, look at LA VERITE' INDERDITE in French or translated into Italian LA VERITA' NEGATA."
I don't know if it was translated into English. The authors are a French journalist and a corporate investigator - Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie'.

I said reliable sources, but I will look into Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie.

"Read Gore Vidal.
Read Le Monde (if you speak French) and do a search in back editions.
Mostly, look for it. It's out there. "

See above.

"I SUGGEST READING FOR ALL Noam Chomsky 9/11 and ALL his other works as well. You get a different perspective. Something beyond the corporate news on TV."

I have, Chomsky is a crank and knows less about the subject than I do. I mean works by people who study the subject of terrorism and write books on the subject not diatribes. Here's a partial list

"bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War on America by Yossef Bodansky Copyright 1999.

The War Against America ( or as my copy reads Study in Revenge) by Laurie Mylroie. Copyright 2000.

"Dan Rather gave the interview on the BBC last week. Look for that interview. He says some pretty interesting things which are quite damaging to the who political and news institutions. "

Dan Rather? 'nuff said.

Are there global entanglements? Definatly, but that's to be expected. We're now dealing with people with an axe to grind against Western civilization, Western thought and Western morals (they may have a point there).

Black Jack

05-26-2002, 04:55 PM

I just wanted to give props to Sifu Abel and Rogue, there posts were on the mark, but what else is new, I would jump in but its pretty hard to get through the victuals of retardation that the liberal euro community...aka...American Bashers...likes to make up and vomit out.

You see more and more of it infecting the beat-nick yuppy college crowd of our own nation, pansy ass commie john walker twerps who sit around the common ground wearing sandalls, smelling of spilled bong water, trying to intellectualize there homeland and how bad we are to the rest of the world, yet they sit in the lap of luxury, there bills paid by mommy and daddy, no problems in the world but how to score some over-priced ditch-weed and get laid.

As the wise sage Forest Gump once stated, "Stupid is as stupid does".

And boy on boy, there is a lot of stupid going around here.

NYerRoman

05-27-2002, 12:02 AM

Merry,

It's very difficult on a forum like this to go into extreme detail given the amount of responses, the length of the replies and the argument of every detail of the replies. It becomes overwhelming.

But, I think we can agree that that day was horrific. For me being there haunts me, and I can't think about it without getting upset. But I won't let that get the best of me and throw me into a patriotic fervor incited by some individuals that I believe had a role in creating the situation in that area of the world.

Rouge,

Sorry. European papers are reliable. Sorry to burst your American bubble. Keep believing that there's freedom of the press there. The Dan Rather comment was not a reference to his competency, but what he said about press censorship, especially now. I agree he is just a corporate news patsy.
Gore Vidal makes a hell of a point regarding government manipulation of opinion and of facts. Don't dismiss him. He makes relevent points.
Chomsky is not a crank. Why? He says things that attack the system. I believe much of what he says has truth in it. Why don't you see that? Plus he is not an expert on terrorism but will give you a background on government operations and conclusions that bring us to world events, how they're reported and stuffed down our throats as the truth.

Ok? Those guys who have an ax to grind certainly have a point. We weren't and are still not listening.

peace

Liokault

05-27-2002, 12:03 AM

Richie

05-27-2002, 12:21 AM

Why dont you guys quit?

Liokault,

Most educated people in America dont agree with what our government does.

Plus, you know people without the power usually hates the ones with power. It is the same thing when England was powerful backn in the old days.

Mr Punch

05-27-2002, 01:09 AM

Could argue with some of this. Can't be arsed. Just saying,

MP: don't come here with all your useful, to-the-point kind of logic. Everything IS black-n-white.

Scotty: facts don't mean **** when you've got invective. Please keep them to yourself, or you'll have Richie accusing you of reading things n stuff.

Stumblefist: just cos you're funny, don't think it detracts from the REAL issue. The REAL issue is: how do they stop that snow from melting?

Rogue: just because I don't know where some funny-sounding places are in where was it again... oh yeah, the States, doesn't mean I don't care. The fact that I don't care means I don't ****in' care! I'm sure that's your point, but maybe your mother's apron strings are longer than mine.

Another big fat :rolleyes:

Who TF was John Walker? Is that the guy made all that hooch?

scotty1

05-27-2002, 02:14 AM

Jesus, still dragging on.

Ever had a relative that you found irritating? You ever walked around slagging them down to your friends? Ever had one of your friends slag them down in support of you and you say "**** off, that's my family, you can't say that!"

Point is, Americans (or most of the ones on this board) are aware of the, erm, insensitivity of their government. And some of the actions by that government are not the most conduicive (sp) to worldwide health and harmony. They know that, and state it.

But there is a little bit of the above coming out when people from other countries start going a bit over the top and really giving it to your country in the back. You are going to defend it.

I'm the same. We have sh!t weather (most of the time), a lot of the people you meet in town are townie scumbags, we have a reputation for hooliganism, our country is hella expensive, and in order to run 70 percent of the world you have had to do some terrible things. Some of the things that happended in India were ****ing atrocious. The British government continues to make silly foreign policy errors, IMHO.

But, if you go too far in slagging it down then I will fight like a cornered rat to defend it and the people, because ultimately : it's my home, and its the only place in the world I really feel safe.

So, Shadow et al., if you're trying to have a reasonable debate with a group of Americans about Sep.11 you will probably do best not to put them on the defensive. It doesn't take a lot to put an American on the defensive at the mo, understandably.

Amercians don't like people saying "its all your fault, you deserved it". Because its not all their fault, and they didn't deserve it. Red5Angel, the reason I posted that link is not because I was saying "this is why you got bombed, suck it up" but I was rather trying to say "this is the world wide perception of American foreign policy, see why people get ****ed off?"

Take a country with a different religion than ours, or even just A religion which is followed countrywide. Say for whatever reasons, maybe a combination of geograhic unluckyness and a corrupt government there is mass poverty, social unrest and always a few seperatist groups trying to take control. So you have all these existing problems.

And in the middle of this, the corrupt government sees a way of making some more money out of the downtrodden people and invites the US to buy up their oil, whatever. So the locals wake up one morn and see a group of rich Americans building a pipeline to take their oil.

They get up and go to work in a sweatshop producing Western goods, knowing full well how much they get paid for making them and how much they are worth in the West.

And then they go eat in McDonalds in the evening.

So we have a country with many exisiting problems, dogmatically religious, and along comes the US (UK in tow) and puts its big size 10s right in the middle of this mess. So instantly the corrupt government see this incursion as a way of unloading its problems.

"Look at the Americans with their lack of morals, exploiting our country, using us to produce cheap goods, using us to make money, they are the cause of all your problems!"

And really, the problems were there before we got there, we just took advantage a bit, and became the scapegoat.

Paul

05-27-2002, 02:27 AM

How much does Bill Gates give to charity per year? Not as much as me I bet. And I'm not talking about % either.

Lets see....I found this list which is about 2 years old. If you are giving away more money than this you MUST be loaded.

Who's ignorant now? LOL

Where the Money Goes

$1 billion over 20 years to establish the Gates Millennium Scholarship Program, which will support promising minority students through college and some kinds of graduate school.
$750 million over five years to the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization, which includes the World Health Organization, the Rockefeller Foundation, Unicef, pharmaceutical companies and the World Bank.
$350 million over three years to teachers, administrators, school districts and schools to improve America’s K-12 education, starting in Washington State.
$200 million to the Gates Library Program, which is wiring public libraries in America’s poorest communities in an effort to close the “digital divide.”
$100 million to the Gates Children’s Vaccine Program, which will accelerate delivery of lifesaving vaccines to children in the poorest countries of the world.
$50 million to the Maternal Mortality Reduction Program, run by the Columbia University School of Public Health.
$50 million to the Malaria Vaccine Initiative, to conduct research on promising candidates for a malaria vaccine.
$50 million to an international group called the Alliance for the Prevention of Cervical Cancer.
$50 million to a fund for global polio eradication, led by the World Health Organization, Unicef, Rotary International and the U.N. Foundation.
$40 million to the International Vaccine Institute, a research program based in Seoul, South Korea.
$28 million to Unicef for the elimination of maternal and neonatal tetanus.
$25 million to the Sequella Global Tuberculosis Foundation.
$25 million to the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative, which is creating coalitions of research scientists, pharmaceutical companies and governments in developing countries to look for a safe, effective, widely accessible vaccine against AIDS.

respectmankind

05-27-2002, 02:30 AM

i don't take either side on this argument, but **** that was funny as hell. good one paul.

Paul

05-27-2002, 02:35 AM

Here's something else I forgot to add......haha.

In January, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation edged past Britain’s Wellcome Trust to become the largest in the world, with assets of $21.8 billion. Even the greatest philanthropists of the past did not give away as much in real dollars over their entire lifetimes as Gates has at the age of 44.

Yep, Bill Gates what a miser.

Richie

05-27-2002, 03:03 AM

What is the point of your random questions?

scotty1

05-27-2002, 03:29 AM

I go to Flemings for my hamburgers, its a local burger bar, a short walk away.

This thread's gone down the crapper.

Mr Punch

05-27-2002, 03:49 AM

scotty, hadn't reared its ugly head from said locale in a while...

Stumblefist: whiskey and coke. That's what's wrong with the world today! But congratulations on being so brave in coming out to us guys...

and thanks for clearing up that point about Lindt... another difference between you Americans and The Rest Of The World (TM): we have languages wiv gramma rules n evryfink... an propah propah names! Sorry if I was a bit slow about the whole name thing, but why do so many Americans have so many surnames, or even first names as surnames... it's no wonder you poor babies are so confused!

This is a rhetorical question. There really is no need to answer for other than humourous purposes (honestly Richie!). Time for my medication.

From the u-bend...

respect!