Applications in WC forms

[rogue]

Do the movements of WC forms map directly (one to one) to certain applications? Or are they movements that can be translated into many different applications?

[azwingchun]

I believe mostly that the forms translate into ideas which can be many different ways, though there are obviously parts which can be literally used in sequence straight from the forms. I would give some examples, though as you know it isn't always the easiest to put into words. But, I personally don't look for set techniques from the forms as much as I look for the principles they actually teach, which I then look for the various uses within each movement. IMHO.;)

[S.Teebas]

There are no techniques in wing chun. Therefore (..and i cant believe im about to say this)....no fixed positions!

Chi sau trains to react to infinate angles of attack. (when trained peoperly). so its possioble to counter 'Techniques' that you havent trained against before. ...Beacuse if you train to counter all angles...well whatever somone throws at you...it has to come in at one angle or another. This is why WC is classed a principle baised system.


Do the movements of WC forms map directly (one to one) to certain applications?

I would say no. Because, for example, a tan sau may redirect in one instance...where as in another, which LOOKS identical; the energy can be completey different. You need to train to react to the energy/intent..etc.. of the other person.


Or are they movements that can be translated into many different applications?

I think its a matter of changing you structure to deal with the situation. I think this is complex question becasue there are many issues you'd need to adress. Such as realtionship between 'movements' ...eg tan, fook, bong..etc... and angles of attack etc..

[yuanfen]

Motions in wing chun have many different applications.

[black and blue]

"Motions in wing chun have many different applications."

:rolleyes: So that's cleared that up then. How about...

"Motions in wing chun have many different mud applications."

;)

[reneritchie]

IME they are conceptual points with many application. However, one or two obvious ones are usually taught in the beginning to aid in the learning process.

Rgds,

RR

[anerlich]

The forms contain movements of a generally mechanically and conceptually sound nature which can be applied in many different specific ways and specific situations.

While this "formlessness within form" stuff sounds very Zen and highfalutin, the average student will benefit from being shown a few specific examples of the application of specific maneuvers, and then encouraged to try and find their application in a wider variety of situations.

A few examples:

Garn sao, the sweeping hand to the outside, had its most obvious use in deflecting a low punch or kick, presumably while hitting the opponent with the other hand.

But it can also be used in a situation where you've slipped or deflected a jab to the outside (slipped a left jab over your left shoulder. Trap the punching hand with your right hand, and take your left arm over his armusing the garn sao motion to sweep down and attack the elbow joint, turning the opponent, after which you can reach around behin his head with the other hand, grab his chin and take him down, perhaps onto your extended knee.

The gum sao/tan sao section can be used to block two successive incoming strikes, or can be applied to an opponent you've got bent over by gum saoing over the back of his head,tan saoing under his neck, moving on to a standing guillotine choke (or if he is facing the other way a reverse hanging choke), a neck crank/control hold sort of like a reverse crossface, or into a throw by further manipulating the neck and inside arm.

The fut sao can be used as a deflection or cover while retreating, but also has a nice application to a standing cutting armbar.

Just some ideas. The more you look, and IMO, the more you look at other systems, the more you see new applications for the same movements.

This is true of most decent MA systems, not just WC. For example, BJJ's upa/bridge and roll is usually first taught as a means of reversing a mounted opponent, but it has scores of other applications.

[yuanfen]

Sure wing chun works in the mud too. Wing chun folks have been slinging that stuff for some time.
Anerlich- Of course it is important for a teacher to show key applications as way of illustrating the principles of motion.
Atleast for me...the fact that concepts are imvolved does not mean it is "formless"...structure and applied physics of things remain very relevant. One cannot ignore the relevance of gravity,
the gates, the center and many other things that go under the
umbrella of structure.

[rogue]

Thanks all for the answers.

The next questions I have is how do you teach the student to apply the movements?

[yuanfen]

First you have students practice them separately to get the structural requirements down- then you have them apply them
gradually ina controlled way in two person drills- and in the right context- in chi sao timing work.