Differences

[scotty1]

I am really quite confused as to the difference between internal and external styles, other than aesthetically.

It seems to me that both achieve power through the correct body mechanics and positioning, and relaxed strength.

So how are they different, really?

I, as an external stylist, try to use all my body in a relaxed fashion in order to transfer my energy from myself into my opponent.

How does this differ from what you do?

Sorry if this sounds like an ignorant question, its just that I questioned my own definition of an internal style today and couldn't really answer what made them different.

[miscjinx]

I don't know what you are doing...but in general an internal martial artist moves differently than an externalist. Also in general, when an externalist says they are using relaxed power - to an internalist they are still tense (particularly in the arms and shoulders and hips, and this is where externalists derive much of their power).

It would easier to show than to explain. The additional problem is too many poor internalists. I had studied 4 years in tai chi and thought I was an internalist and relaxed until I took Mike Sigman's seminar (when he showed me what relaxation and power really was). I know many more internalists in the same boat. It is hard to learn and you really need to feel it from someone who knows to get an idea of what they are talking about.

[scotty1]

"but in general an internal martial artist moves differently than an externalist"

How? What is it that makes what an internal stylist does 'internal'?

The definition is using 'internal power' manifested through your body, ie. externally.

So what is it coming from the inside to the outside? How is 'internal power' manifested through the stylist? And if it is purely through relaxed body mechanics, than what is 'internal power'? Energy, chi, intent?

The goals of an external stylist are to :

1. Stay relaxed
2. Use efficient body mechanics and positioning

Internal stylists share these two goals - but they must have additional ones as well. What are they, and are these what defines the style as internal?

Am I making sense?:confused: :)

[scotty1]

*next morning*

obviously not.:(

[miscjinx]

You didn't understand what I said the first time.

Even if I could find the words to explain it, only another internal martial artist who has studied it would really be the only one to understand what I was talking about (based on experience). To explain what I am doing (which I find is more governed on feeling and mental tricks than trying to explain the physics of it) would be meaningless to you.

Hell, the neijia list and others have been trying to explain this stuff to each other over the internet for years and they still can't do it. The breakthroughs are when some of them get together physically.

It is not as simple as just telling you via typed words on the screen. You have to see it and feel it to really understand what I am talking about. Otherwise it breaks down to comments like "I'm doing that know", arguements for various reasons, etc. What and how of internal does not convert to words very well.

[crumble]

Originally posted by scotty1

The goals of an external stylist are to :

1. Stay relaxed
2. Use efficient body mechanics and positioning


This is my answer, for what it is worth. You will find lots of different answers from different people.

Those two points are the same for external and internal stylists. I think that's why other people will make the claim that external becomes internal after enough practice.

I personally don't think that there is true a unique and separate thing as "internal". But when I think about internal martial arts (IMA), here is what is in my mind:

IMA generate power by opening and closing joints, not by swinging mass. Open and close isn't esoteric. Bicep curls are opening and closing the elbow joint. IMA use the opening and closing of all the joints from the ankle to the knee to the hip to the waist to the spine to the shoulder (not much shoulder!) to the elbow to the wrist -- to deliver power.

As a result the power is grounded (because you are resting ON the ground, not pushing off of it) and and very powerful. The idea of using all the joints is like the difference between doing military presses with just your chest muscles (stand up with bench press bar held at shoulder height in front of the body, push it up to over head) versus powering the bar up with your legs.

(Weight trainers call using the whole body to do a lift "cheating", but that's the point: in fighting you want to use as much power as possible!)

More joints moving means more power. The trick is all the joints move in an extremely coordinated way so that all the bones are lined up, so that when you make contact, the compression of the bones is the power... and it is like getting hit BY the ground!

And just as an aside, most people don't use the spine much for power. They open and close the arms and legs while twisting the waist, but they don't add much spine. Which is a nuance, really, because you can hit f**king hard with your legs and arms and waist.

So when I just the term IMA for convience, I think of this open and close power.

Just for contrast, when I think of external martial arts (EMA), I tend to think of swinging mass power. The quintessential examples being a roundhouse punch and a roundhouse kick.

But obviously these aren't the only things in a so-called EMA's arsenal. That's why there is a lot of grey area between my definition of IMA and EMA.

Just as a side point: my teacher -- who I would say is an IMA guy -- uses very external movements for when he is finishing someone off (i.e., Lama, white crane, hop gar type strikes). But he uses "internal" techniques to off balance and control and lock them up.

The thing about swinging power is that it is probably the most powerful power, but it is slow. The thing about open and close power is that it is pretty **** powerful, but freaking fast!

Another side point: in both western and chinese fencing they realized that a very thin sword could beat a very heavy weapon because of it's speed. Especially with weapons, it's enough to be fast, because the weapon is deadly.

Anyway, I think ultimately it's good to learn both methods of power generation if you can. If not, learn the one that feels good and works for you.

If you get a chance to learn internal stuff, it's doubly cool because you do become a better fighter and you understand all this crap that, before, you've only heard about!

But I'd rather be a great external guy than a mediocre internal guy, for what it is worth.

-crumble

[Water Dragon]

Well said Crumble!!!

[Walter Joyce]

crumble,
Great post. Question, you said "They open and close the arms and legs while twisting the waist, but they don't add much spine." Do you think they should be using the spine? Its my understanding that a lot of power can come from proper use of the spine, for storing and then relasing energy.
Walter

[crumble]

Thanks WD & Thanks Walter (Is it your posts that I've been enjoying on Shen Wu?)


Originally posted by Walter Joyce
Its my understanding that a lot of power can come from proper use of the spine, for storing and then relasing energy.
Walter

That's my understanding, too. But I can't make it work FAST.

I can kinda do a slow "gathering" in the spine (inhaling, letting the chest relax and close, so the spine takes a "c" shape... and having the air help round the spine) and then release it. (Similar to Sigman's videos and Park Nam's "dragon back" in his videos). But at this point it seems real slow and not orders of magnitude more powerful.

In the hsing i I'm learning, the spine doesn't round so much. It just sort of hinges between the shoulder blades.

Maybe the big rounding is just a training method, rather than how it is used? I don't know.

I hope this is useful to somebody!

-c

[Walter Joyce]

Again, great post. It sounds like you are learning from someone who knows their stuff. Thanks for the response.

[Water Dragon]

Now this is a good thread (probably because we have some people who are using the same terminology, LOL)

I have a question for you guys. From what I've seen, there are basically two distinct types of power.

There's horizontal, which I define as the torque between the grounded foot and the opening and the closing of the hip.

Then there is vertical power, which is more of a wave/ripple/pulse? from the feet and up through the spine. From what I've seen, spiral power seems to be some type of blending of the two.

Is this pretty much in line with what you guys have seen? Or are there others out htere I've not been exposed to?

[Walter Joyce]

Although I hadn't thought of it that way before, I agree with your descriptions WD. And to clarify, I've only been doing internal for about 5 years, although I trained for another 15 years or so before that.
But, what of the four basic energies of tai chi, peng, gee, liu and ahn (sp.)? while peng (ward off, the basic energy of tai chi) and gee (rising and extending energy, for lack of a better description) seem to be horizontal, what of liu, the energy of drawing inward.... I admit that I am thinking this through as I type.
Anyway...responses? And I do post on Shen Wu (although it seems they wished I wouldn't at times...lol) and empty flower, crumble.

[RAF]

Water Dragon:

I don't know if this fits exactly but the horizontal/vertical power hit on something I learned many years ago with taijiquan.

You can make circular movements along a horizontal plane for power and you also can make circular movements along a vertical plane for power. However, if you put both together, in 3 dimensions, you get a sphere (the infamous taiji ball, although it was never called taiji ball when I learned it). When both powers are finally integrated your own movements become like sphere. I was told that this was what made taiji's jings or energies so unique.

[crumble]

I'm not sure if I know how to use "quote" correctly... here goes:


Originally posted by Water Dragon
Now this is a good thread (probably because we have some people who are using the same terminology, LOL)

There's horizontal, which I define as the torque between the grounded foot and the opening and the closing of the hip.

I agree this exists. I'm understanding it as the mechanics behind a good "hook" punch or horizontal elbow strike.

Then there is vertical power, which is more of a wave/ripple/pulse? from the feet and up through the spine.

I think there might be variations in vertical power.

The ripple, to me, is a shock that begins in the leg, is augmented in the spine, and sent out the arm. This isn't a grounded strike, but it is a powerful shock. (I understand this one very little.)

Then there is the "compression". This is a long range punch where the momentum of the body creates the power and the alignment of the bones doesn't allow any of the "equal and opposite force" from the impact to leak out a joint. This kind of compression punch can be done off the back foot (western boxing) or even the front foot. The guy who teaches "cheng hsin" (peter ralston) has essentially created a boxing art that is compression off the >front< foot (among other things...). The key thing about compression is that the body can be out of alignment when moving toward the target, but at the moment of impact, all the bones must be aligned properly.

Then there is what I'm calling "coordination". Which is "when one thing moves, everything moves". In this kind of power, there power all along the movement of the punch because your always balanced, always ready to change. This kind of power can be a long punch or a quick shock. Sometimes the shock version is called "cold power" because it looks like the person just shivered and the other guy is blown away.

My sense of it is that the mechanics of a coordinated punch and coordinated quick shock is the same, but I can't do cold power, so I don't know. My sense is that there is a difference between "ripple" fajing and "coordinated cold power" fajing. But you can probably tell that I don't know.

From what I've seen, spiral power seems to be some type of blending of the two.

Yeah, I think that what I've heard called "coil power" is what I think of as a combination of horizontal power and coordinated power.

Sorry about all the wierd terms I just made up!

[Water Dragon]

The ripple, to me, is a shock that begins in the leg, is augmented in the spine, and sent out the arm. This isn't a grounded strike, but it is a powerful shock. (I understand this one very little.)

I probably understand this one less than you. But to me, it feels like the spine gets compressed and bent like a big spring and when it releases, you get a "pulse" (for lack of a better word) that goes out to the arm and down to the grounded foot at the same time. Of course, I'm still trying to get this down and can't use it, but does that sound right to you?

Then there is the "compression". This is a long range punch where the momentum of the body creates the power and the alignment of the bones doesn't allow any of the "equal and opposite force" from the impact to leak out a joint. This kind of compression punch can be done off the back foot (western boxing) or even the front foot. The guy who teaches "cheng hsin" (peter ralston) has essentially created a boxing art that is compression off the >front< foot (among other things...). The key thing about compression is that the body can be out of alignment when moving toward the target, but at the moment of impact, all the bones must be aligned properly.

I'm almost 100 % sure that Mr. Ralston got this from William CC Chen. I'm assuming this since I know Mr. Ralston studied with Gr. Mr. Chen and this is the first mechanic I was taught. In it's rawest form, the body can be seen as two "sections" from the foot to the hip joint, and the hip joint to the fist. What happens, in the case of a right punch with the left foot forward, is as follows:

The hip joint closes, which drives the whole body forward. When the fist makes contact with the the other guys body, it creates a compression that goes from the fist into the front foot (the grounded foot)

It gets wierd though after that. Mr. George Blank showed me a variation in which as one hip joint closes to generate power, the other one opens and vice versa. I was shown that one about three years ago and it still leaves me scratching my head as I still can't figure it out.

Also, this base view expands into other parts. (I was taught to initiate the closing and opening of the kua by torquing my foot into the ground. "Spin the floor" was the way it was decribed to me.


Then there is what I'm calling "coordination". Which is "when one thing moves, everything moves". In this kind of power, there power all along the movement of the punch because your always balanced, always ready to change. This kind of power can be a long punch or a quick shock. Sometimes the shock version is called "cold power" because it looks like the person just shivered and the other guy is blown away.

My sense of it is that the mechanics of a coordinated punch and coordinated quick shock is the same, but I can't do cold power, so I don't know. My sense is that there is a difference between "ripple" fajing and "coordinated cold power" fajing. But you can probably tell that I don't know.

I agree with you 100 % here. I think this is the goal we're all trying to achieve eventually, no matter the route we take to get there.

And yes, I've also heard the spiral called a coil although I'm not sure if they're exactly the same.

[crumble]

Great discussion!


Originally posted by Water Dragon
I probably understand this one less than you.

Doubt it. :)

But to me, it feels like the spine gets compressed and bent like a big spring and when it releases, you get a "pulse" (for lack of a better word) that goes out to the arm and down to the grounded foot at the same time. Of course, I'm still trying to get this down and can't use it, but does that sound right to you?

Yeah, that sounds right. When I said it wasn't grounded, I wasn't even thinking of the pulse going down to the foot at the same time it goes out. That seems to be a missing piece in my thinking!

Then there is the "compression".

I'm almost 100 % sure that Mr. Ralston got this from William CC Chen.


That makes a lot of sense. The one thing I think I didn't explain well is that it seems to me that there isn't a right way to initiate the momentum that eventually becomes the compression. I can imagine doing it by using the kua to move the body forward, or just sliding on some ice and then as soon as you slide off and get traction -- then there's the potential to compression punch.

The only reason I mention that is because sometimes to get something, it helps to get goofy. (Like having someone swing the bag at you, instead of you hitting it, eh!) I think I had most of my compression insights by just walking around and stiff arming stuff...

It gets wierd though after that. Mr. George Blank showed me a variation in which as one hip joint closes to generate power, the other one opens and vice versa. I was shown that one about three years ago and it still leaves me scratching my head as I still can't figure it out.

I share your :confused:

Then there is what I'm calling "coordination".

I realized as I was walking around at lunch that I was calling this open and close power earlier.

I agree with you 100 % here. I think this is the goal we're all trying to achieve eventually, no matter the route we take to get there.

But you know the wierd thing is -- and this kinda brings us full circle -- is that... Well, for example, when you are using something like wing chun or hsing i to joust for the centerline, so to speak, it is VERY important to have that grounded, coordinated, connected, open and close power. But when you are killing the guy (i.e. you have them off balance and controlled so they can't really hit back) then it's okay to use some good old yucky external roundhouse or backfist or etc. Cause those things are **** powerful.

At least, that's what I'm thinking these days.

-crumble

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by crumble

But you know the wierd thing is -- and this kinda brings us full circle -- is that... Well, for example, when you are using something like wing chun or hsing i to joust for the centerline, so to speak, it is VERY important to have that grounded, coordinated, connected, open and close power. But when you are killing the guy (i.e. you have them off balance and controlled so they can't really hit back) then it's okay to use some good old yucky external roundhouse or backfist or etc. Cause those things are **** powerful.

At least, that's what I'm thinking these days.

-crumble

I think that's correct as well for the following reason: If you're using open-close/wind up-release/etc. you always have a yield going along with it.

Example: if the left foot is forward and your punching with the right hand the left side is automatically yielding. If your left foot is forward and you're hitting with the left hand, the right side is automatically yielding.

Perhaps one of the Seniors will come on and explain this for both of us. I'm sure they're amused at our lack of understading :D

[crumble]

Originally posted by Water Dragon

... I'm sure they're amused at our lack of understading :D

I know I sure am! :D

-c

[Naturalkilla]

Sup,

I've studied both internal and external styles and I think that the bottom line is that internal martial arts cultivate non-muscular power (why relaxation is required, since the muscles are not used as such) rather than use the standard muscular force used in the hard/external styles. This may sound kooky, esoteric, or even like a rip off from some cheap Chinese movies, but the chi is used for power instead of the muscles. Since this energy comes from the "inside" (the unconscious mind, or whatever) an appropriate name for these systems that has been coined is internal.

This definition also explains why the training in the internal martial arts is often slow, meditative, or static (as in I-chuan, zhan zhuang, etc). This is due to the fact that this energy must be cultivate and the practitioner's mind must in effect be reprogrammed in order to make use of the new form of locomotion as well as its needed reactionary usage for combat situations.

According to this definition, an art such as Karate would be an external style, since it involves the use of the body's muscles in order to produce technical power. I would also define a system such as Judo as external (although it is definitely soft) since although it functions by not meeting force with ridged counter force, it contains no methods (such as qigong, zhan zhuang, etc) for the utilization of non-muscular/internal power for use in its techniques. Of course, there are no strictly defined boundaries for practice, and although I have never seen the aforemention training methods utilized in Judo, a Judoka possessing this internal power would definitely by an internal martial artist in my opinion.

Really, the difference between the two is actualized in the type of power and skill-basis used by an individual practioner in performing techniques on an opponent. One may have wonderful Taiji or other internal martial arts form, but only this non-muscular power generated by the mind can enable an individual to qualify as a member of the internal clan.

:cool: