Defense against WC?

[scotty1]

Hi, I just saw this on another forum. Its advice to a JKD guy about dealing with a wc guy. What do you think?

"He'll come at you square - left hand above the right, hands above each other on the "center line". He'll simultaneously trap and hit. FEINT, THEN CRACK HIM!

Never heard of a Wing Chun guy who feints...

You should always jab. These guys use "sticky hands", and will smack it down and quickly come straight in. Tie up his hands and move him back. Crouched attacks with the left hook ala tyson will work well.

Wing Chun guys will come straight at you with straight blasts. They will try to end it quickly. If you're a range fighter, it will be difficult. Brawlers work best against wing chun guys. Back him up. Wing Chun guys don't fight well, generally, backing up.

Low jab then a crunching left hook will do well, because wing chun guys don't train for hooks.

Did I mentin to back him up? ;) "

Is it true wc doesn't train a defense against hooks? I find that very hard to believe.



:)

[dezhen2001]

Just because WC doesn't train hooks doesn't mean that we can't defend against them... We train to recognise energy and how to deal with the different types, not specific types of attack. The same could be said for defence against roundhouse kicks, crescent kicks etc. We don't train them, but can defend against them ;)

I think the feint then crack him, was directed as a tactic of what to do??

Personally, it depends on the WC guys experience. We don't just move straight in and straight back u know, we don't try to stick if we can just hit... so many other variables so how can u make a sweeping generalization like that? :D

just my thoughts,
david

[popsider]

"He'll come at you square - left hand above the right, hands above each other on the "center line". He'll simultaneously trap and hit. FEINT, THEN CRACK HIM! "

Isn't he going to get out of the way of the hit? He's saying let the wc guy the first hit - great - suits me.

"Brawlers work best against wing chun guys. Back him up. Wing Chun guys don't fight well, generally, backing up. "

Brawlers! - great to see he's got confidence in his JKD. I'd have thought wc works well backing up too - because we don't rely on committing the shoulder or body in a hit we can fight moving back as well as we can moving forward (not sure I expressed that too well - what I mean is I can't imagine throwing a haymaker and stepping back at the same time - I can hit straight and step back and put the hip etc into it).

"Low jab then a crunching left hook will do well, because wing chun guys don't train for hooks. "

Oh no we've been rumbled !

[Mr Punch]

1)If he feints, hit him.

2)If he hooks, hit him.

3)If he tries to back you up, hit him.

This man shows a startling lack of knowledge about wing chun. I would like to fight him!

1)We only need to trap if we cannot strike. If we strike and it is intercepted, trap and strike again. Most feints look like feints, and more importantly, feel like feints. If he feints, hit him.

2)If he hooks, he is leaving his centreline open. Hit him. If he guards his centreline with the other hand, trap it and hit him. However, DZ, if you have ever really been rocked by a good hook, you would know that you have to train for it, even if only to recognize what's coming, before you fall over with a broken nose. It still stands, however, that if he hooks, hit him.

3)How many wingchunners practice being backed up? ... Thought not...! If you are backed up you are often in danger of losing your balance and your centreline, and you won't be able to strike with anything. However, if this happens, you have already lost your wing chun basics. If he is coming on strong, use his energy and, er, hit him. You may like to try bong, lop, hit/bong, elbow/lop, hit, etc... but basically hit him!

Am I sounding a little dogmatic?!?:rolleyes: ;) :D

[dezhen2001]

Hi Mat, liked your post very 'simple and direct' :D

Actually i know not to underestimate a good hook... i did boxing for 5 yrs and muay thai for 1 :) But what i was saying is that although we don't train thattechnique, we have means of dealing with the type of energy it uses...

Practising getting backed up against something (a wall, or even at the edge of a table for instance) is actually rather interesting. I remember when i played table chi sau with my Sifu - a very enlightening experience. Not that i'm any better now of course :)

david

[Mr Punch]

OK. Didn't know you boxed. I haven't since I was 9! You know what I mean then! In both the styles of wc I've practised in, we've trained against hooks though anyway. Most of my brothers can't chuck a good one. I think the biggest problem most wcer beginners have with them is following them...

Table chi sau eh? Hope you hit him with a few pings and pongs!?:rolleyes:
... I'm really really sorry...:( ;) :D

[jweir]

I don't think this guy's advice is as bad as some say it is. We all know the best way to beat a Wing Tsun fighter is to use better Wing Tsun. He's just pointing out where, if the WC person they're fighting has holes in his technique, those holes will likely be.

He clearly does know a thing or two about fighting WC people. He knows that since our goal is to go forward, we're not as effective if we're backing up. He doesn't say HOW to back us up, but the advice isn't terrible. He also knows that since we don't throw a lot (or any) hooking punches, our ability to defend them can be under-practiced. It's very easy to say "hit him because his punch isn't on center" but sometimes a punch will miss. Some people can take a few punches. If that person gets inside and survives, his hook might just land on your jaw and KO you.

The biggest mistake that I saw in his advice was that he didn't mention footwork in any way. Even in the Wing Chun world, people often ignore the fact that footwork can be way, way more effective than all the sticky hands and straight blasts in the world. When someone tries to get inside and "brawl" he might end up flat on his back before a punch is even thrown.

[dezhen2001]

Most definately the Pong <--- from fear :D (bad joke i know). It's actually pretty interesting as you can't back up more or you will fall off... trains you to turn to the side and use small amounts of footwork quite well. As well as breakfalling! ;)

The thing about hooks is that most people who haven't trained in them tend to do the haymaker style one, which is nothing like a boxers hook... That's why Sifu sometimes uses me to demo hooks :(

That's why i originally said that there are so many other variables to take in to consideration... how we move as we go back, do we just absorb and use gong lik... it depends on the level of the person. Not everyone reacts the same, unless you have learned a prearranged defence or whatever, but as chi sau isn't fixed, everyone develops the skill in their own way.

just what i think,
david

[anerlich]

The same could be said for defence against roundhouse kicks, crescent kicks etc. We don't train them, but can defend against them
You are speaking for yourself here. IMO If you never see a good roundhouse kick, axe kick or whatever, you never learn to deal with the dynamics of what they are really like. If all your classmates throw crap roundhouse kicks or hooks, you'll get good at dealing with crap roundhouse kicks and hooks, but when someone really good at them comes along, you'll get hammered by something you haven't seen. If you really think your ability to handle the crappy haymaker your classmate throws is going to prepare you to deal with a proper hook thrown by a trained boxer (and I accept that some posters know boxing), I'd be making sure my medical insurance was at the top level.

My Sifu has a kicking arsenal better than 98% of the TKD BB's out there. He also had over 100 pro and amateur kickboxing fights winning many with head kick KO's. We train roundhouse, side, hook kicks day in day out, as well as hooks, shovels, uppercuts, knees, elbows, headbutts, etc. If we're contending with a round kick from a classmate, we KNOW it's got some real sting in it.

I've noticed a tendency amongst many WC guys to fight with the head up, exposing the chin, because they're trying to watch both theirs and the opponent's hands. People with a slack pak sao often tend to try and bat the lead elbow of the jab down to the blind side, which is a perfect setup for the opp to circle over the block and lead hook straight off the jab, which works even better if the pak sao guy also has his chin stuck out. Or even just follow up with a second jab to the outside of the pak sao.

Don't even get me started on what happens if the WC guy gets taken off his feet.

It's very dangerous to be complacent about Wing Chun because of the alleged mechanical efficiency. Straight line techs are faster than circular, but few boxers or circular kickers will lead with such a tech, they'll try to set you up first. And your "fast" straight punch may be slower than his "slow" hook. Unless you train HARD.

The classic WC demo is a hapless straw man TKD BB throwing a single big roundhouse or spin hook kick at the WC hero's head, the WC hero "easily" countering this with a low side or stomp kick to the knee, thus "proving" the superiority of WC.

BOOLSHEEIT. a good kicker is going to set up a big kick like that with his hands, and use deception and feints to set it up. The game is somewhat different then.

I still believe good WC will match it with anything else out there. But IMO ordinary or crap WC is much worse than ordinary or crap boxing or kickboxing.

Complacency in your training could be fatal.

[popsider]

First off I agree that we probably don't train against good hooks because most of us are not skilled in delivering a hook - or at least we are not as skilled at that as a boxer or similar.
I'm not sure what people mean about being backed up. I don't agree that wing chun always goes forwards - in chi sao if you have to go back you go back - against a more skilled person it happens all the time - I reckon that is a strength of wc not a weakness. I've never been in a wc class that did not practice footwork for going backwards as well as forwards.

Also like someone else said - what does it mean to advise people to back an opponent up - in simple terms if he wants to back me up he better have the tools to do it - it's a bit like saying the best tactic is to hit them, or knock them over - it's not necessarily something in his control. If he is just going to come forward whatever then he's playing into my hands.

He's got a lot of preconceptions and preconceptions are dangerous .

[Shadowboxer]

It's not true that we don't train against hooks. And, we have hooks in the first form- the tight boxer style hook. Whoever suggested this didn't take into account Footwork- while hitting, while trapping and hitting, and even backing up, momentarily, to find the better angle. WC can deflect/punch/kick a knee all while backing up. We also do a corner drill in the event that we can't back up to learn to turn the tables and put the attacker in the corner.

[chessGMwannabe]

"He'll come at you square - left hand above the right, hands above each other on the "center line".

that is the only part of that that really sound like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. afterall, all wingchunners are tought from day one, 'this is the way that you should start every fight' just like you could expect any tkder to start any fight by closing the gap with a roundhouse kick.
the rest of it I can take, it's kind of abstract, like back him up, (easier said than done) but like someone else said, it's not a bad idea. it's doubtful to hold against a strong wingchunner, but how many of us always do perfect wing chun. and I could think of some students that have similar holes in their kung fu.
but even if it was 'you might expect him to come in . . . . ' but I could picture some dude trying to take that guys advice, and feeling pretty stupid when the wingchunner didn't start out by doing anything at all, and this jkd guy is trying to find some way to start an attack and has no idea how to start BACKING him up from an undefined position.

overall, it's the artist not the art, duh. there is not defense to wing chun. because if you took the ten best wingchunners alive, their wingchun would all look different. you can't fight a stereotyped wingchunner, becuase they don't exhist. learn person by person, fight by fight, minute by minute.

regards
kevin

[old jong]

It is so funny (sad for the other guy!) when some people think that a certain formula will work for sure against something...."He will do this,so...do this!"...What if he does'nt?...
A good Wing Chun guy will not "react" like a stupid robot! He will not only "trap":eek:(I hate that term!) or blindly "chain punch"...This is beginner stuff and this thing was written by somebody who only knew little about Wing Chun.

[AndyM]

Freely admitting that I am a complete beginner in WC, I believe I have a good Sifu!

I was told I was only allowed to step backwards once!!!

Any thoughts?

AndyM

[dezhen2001]

there are other ways of stepping, not just straight back - to the side, diagonally back, round and back, forwards... it depends on the situation :) Sometimes i step back too much also, and it's something i have to try and change... If you have to step, then step, no point in limiting what you can do as that increases pressure and stress. imho anyway :)

Well, remember i'm a newbie as well compared to most of the other guys here. But this is what i have found when i play chi sau. If there is a limit or restriction put on stepping or whatever it can add more pressure, which makes it harder to relax... It depends on if you are training a specific thing such as turning, and moving round, then it's different.

i'm sure some of the others can offer more insight than me :p

david

[Sabu]

Why do you not like the term "trapping"? Or is it that you just don't like being or feeling trapped...?

[old jong]

I feel it gives a false idea of the real goal of Wing Chun witch is deflecting and hitting. Many beginners think that they have to somehow pin the hands of an opponent before a strike.This is hand chasing to me!...Also, many non-wing chun guys use that term when they talk about Wing Chun and how these "tricks" would never work against them!(They are right!)And last: We now even hear guys talk about how many "traps" they know instead of principles,lines of attack or defense,body structure and unity witch are the real subjects of Wing Chun.
I hope this answer your question.;)

[yuanfen]

I was told I was only allowed to step backwards once!!!

Any thoughts?

AndyM
-----------------------------
Something like- you only live twice?

[dbulmer]

I can understand why the sifu said what he did. Mine did and he's right! I was free sparring a much bigger and better WC man than me. I found that when I stepped back I found it very difficult to regain any momentum - I lost my balance, I was unable to recover and psychologically I basically gave up - not something I like to admit but there you go. The next time I sparred with him he was still over me but he did find it harder.

[AndyM]

Something like- you only live twice?

Yuanfen, if that was meant to be helpful it went completely over my head!

Do you agree or disagree?

Thanks very much!

AndyM:D

[yuanfen]

Andy M: Good query!
In reality you seldom say never. The key is how you use circumstances. While in wc you do not deliberately go backwards-
sometimes you dont have a choice -someone can give you an unexpected shove from the front. You can fall/step back into a stance and punch forward at the same time. You have regained your structure and attacked the center at the same time.On occasion you can live twice- a second chance- karma and reincarnation.
And chum kiu shows the way!

[Mr Punch]

Good point old jong, about trapping.

I have a slight conceptual problem that I'm working through with my wing chun: coming from an aiki background, I often think having a hand on my opponent's arm as a deflection is tantamount to having 'trapped' him. This doesn't lead me to chasing his hands, or to looking for the perfect pin before striking, but it does sometimes lead me to a false sense of security about how much control I have.

Of course, on the all-too infrequent occasions when I am keeping a really good structure, a good deflection on an arm which is often going back anyway, with good forward elbow energy, will lead to an 'accidental' pin. And, of course, if I'm really keeping to good wing chun principles, I've already hit him anyway!!

Joy, good point also. We were taught that one step back under pressure should be enough to regain your structure if you had lost it.

Thanks, both.

[hunt1]

Never more than 1 step back is a good beginners training tool.

It is assumed that if you have to step back you cannot handle your opponents forward energy.If you keep stepping straight back you allow his energy to build and your position gets worse.The more you step back in the face of strong energy the easier you lose your balance/structure and the harder it is to regain it.This is why you need to learn to shift,side step and angle step in all directions and of course absorb energy.

[dbulmer]

Just been practicing that today. It's hard but I am starting to find it pays off going forward. My own footwork is useless but I am working on it.

Actually, a question for everyone (I think a naive question too as I expect a certain answer but here goes anway).
If a BJJ rushes at you and you are in a basic stance, what steps would you take to avoid being taken to ground? I am interested in the footwork you'd need to practice.

Hunt1 - what do you mean by absorb energy?

[chessGMwannabe]

if your instructor tells you to not take more than one step back in training, he's at least doing something right. the idea is to teach you to deal with an excess of forward pressure in ways that allow you to continue your attack. if you continue to train like that, you'll become a dangerous person becuase when someone is attacking, they generally aren't prepared to defend, it takes a psychological shift. if you just step back, you limit your ability to attack, and it destroys your forward energy. defend by maintaining your potential for attack. if you limit how much you can retreat when training, you'll learn how to find otherways of dealing with an overpowering attack. that's why we were all kind of laughing at the idea of 'backing him up" backing anybody is a good general tactic, but I think it's hardest IMO to back up a good wing chun person. I wouldn't worry about being backed up too much, but do train with people that are strong enough to overpower you so that you can dissapate naturally.
regards,
kevin

[popsider]

Limiting the amount you can step back may just be a training tool, but in reality if it is OK to step back once then why not twice or three times if that is what the situation demands ? I'm not saying that you aim to fight on the run, but there are going to be times when you want to keep some distance between you and the opponent and stepping back is one way of doing that. I don't agree with yuanfen that you never deliberately step backwards - I do agree though that if you do you can still be attacking forwards as you do it.

[mortal]

I just started wing chun but the best defense against this style is a good kicking offense. I have been allowed to spar as soon as I started because of my experiance with shaolin. I found most of the guys I fought were great with their hands but had no defense for a fast kick to the head, chest, or stomach. I have always heard alot about high kicks don't get in, But they do and they work very well. Now when I spar I don't use my feet. That way I develop my hand techs. I'm not knocking WC. i love it!I like its sweeping techs. My Wing chun sifu says he could sweep anybody. Big claim but whats sick is, he really can and does allthe time.

[yuanfen]

I just started wing chun but the best defense against this style is a good kicking offense. I have been allowed to spar as soon as I started because of my experiance with shaolin.
----------------------------------------------------------
Hi mortal -you must not be "sparring" with very accomplished wing chun folks.

[NPMantis]

Hi everyone,

I am interested in learning a little more about WC, could anyone recommend me a site to learn a little more about the techniques involved preferably with some pictures or something?

Thanks a lot for any help!

Take care,

NPM

[yuanfen]

I don't agree with yuanfen that you never deliberately step backwards
---------------------------------
No problem with having different opinions. Careful. IMO a good wc person can walk someone into a wall or whatever is behind
if someone starts stepping back. It all has to with timing and structure.

[AndyM]

I am interested in learning a little more about WC, could anyone recommend me a site to learn a little more about the techniques involved preferably with some pictures or something?


Hi NPMantis,

I'd highly reccomend............



http://www.wingchuninteractive.com/site.html

AndyM

[yuanfen]

Hi Andy M- Thanks for sharing that site. Someone put in a lot of work in the moving illustrations. They deserve real credit.. While the devil is in the details...non wc folks should get an idea of the basic sequences.

yuanfen and the devil

[mortal]

Yuen fen
How do you know they are not accomplished? Or that I am not accomplished? Or how well I kick? You wouldn't agree its not mostly hands? Or are you trying to say a wc guy has a kicking arsenal like shaolin? You wouldn't agree most of the training focuses on the hands? You think your a real wc guy lol.? Whatever. Good luck with your training.

[dbulmer]

Mortal,
I like high kicks too but not because they are effective. As you progress you'll see that WC has kicks to deflect kicks but more importantly you'll see that WC guys train to move in quickly to prevent you from launching in the first place - it does take practice but proficient WC guys (of which I am not one I hasten to add) can and do prevent you from having the range to do it. This is what Yianfen is getting at - In WC you always try to move forwards so that the opponent is too busy countering your moves rather than thinking what he's going to do. I know this sounds great in theory but it does happen in practice as you get more proficient. That said, I have kicked high and got away with it and also been punished for it as well so in the end it comes down to the skill factor.

One thing I have learned though is that when you kick high you can and do get tired more quickly than when you don't. The thing about some high kicks in particular is that even though you might get kicked you often know when it's coming (not always ie you get hit) - with WC low kicks you don't know when it's coming and
it can come as a bit of a surprise.

BTW Have you tried spinning kicks on a proficient WC guy? I have tried it and had a boot up my behind (served me right eh :) )

[mortal]

The question was whats a good defense against wc? You could rip apart any answer with how great wing chun is. So were are the wholes. Am I going to here about how your average wc is better at defending kicks. they are better with their hands and thats the bottom line. When I spar i will always have success with kicking. i have found it to be something southern style guys need to take a little more seriously. Even the couple of times my kick was caught I still landed many head shots while both his hands were used to trap my kicking leg. Leaving the face completely open.
Others should focus on their own posts. I find most people in these forums are know it alls who sit around picking apart posts. Always looking to argue. Try being more positive and less arrogant. You'll live longer.

[anerlich]

If a BJJ rushes at you and you are in a basic stance, what steps would you take to avoid being taken to ground?

I'd sprawl, and I'd be more concerned if an olmypic freestyle wrestler "rushed" at me, as they have better takedowns IMO. Of course, I practice grappling as well as WC.

I've had a fair amount of luck stiff-arming the shooter at the neck or shoulder, and moving off line ot the same side, but I've been taken down a lot by good shooters too.

A good grappler ain't gong to come straight in with a telegraphed shoot anyway. There are guys I've seen who can fake a jab and shoot a double leg as fast as most people can jab cross - or throw two chain punches. Scary to watch!

Best thing to do is make friends with some grapplers and work off what they do, find out what works for yourself, rather than theorising about it on the internet.

mortal, my Sifu has a kicking arsenal that would put most TKD BB's to shame. I'd say I'm none too shabby myself. Too many WC guys are taught that "high kicks don't work and thus are easy to overcome" and thus think they don't have to train to deal with them. Why kick high? Because I CAN.

[NPMantis]

Thanks a lot mate, really great site!

[yuanfen]

You miss my point. It does not matter how good the kicker is.
My point has to do with the development fo wing chun knowledge.
It takes time. Beginners properly spend and should spend time with their stance and foundations. At that stage they are not likely to know how to handle many things including kicks and can be intimidated by all sorts of things. With proper teaching and learning the chum kiu and wing chun footwork and chi sau timing devlopment things change for a properly educated wing chun person. Shouldnt waste time on sparring until good fundamental skills are developed. After that good wc is effective against kickers and grapplers etc. How do I know you ask? Have been doing it for a long time...and against very good kickers..and demonstrate it from time to time. I have no problem with you taking pride in your kicks. Actually wing chun has lots of kicks- but
much of the time not necessary to use them. I have no idea on what wing chun you have seen, Depending on the individuals many things may seem to work. Mistake to infer systemic things from single cases.

[yuanfen]

Yuen fen
How do you know they are not accomplished? Or that I am not accomplished? Or how well I kick? You wouldn't agree its not mostly hands? Or are you trying to say a wc guy has a kicking arsenal like shaolin? You wouldn't agree most of the training focuses on the hands? You think your a real wc guy lol.? Whatever. Good luck with your training.
--------------
Its yuanfen, not yuen fen thank you.I dont know how well you kick
or whether you are accomplished. Not really curious about that. The individual is always an important variable. But you dont know me either.Best to leave the personal stuff out.
On a wing chun list the most constructive thing we can do is share perceptions of the art and agree, disagree or mixes thereof
hopefully with civility..
Do I think that I am a wc guy? Relevance to the thread? Why the lol- impulsive? Good luck with my training? I dont depend much on luck.
While hands are often used- wing chun trains the whole structure
so that one can use whatever is necessary. Good wing chun has very good kicks in its arsenal. Yip Man was a good kicker in his time. But developing a backup arsenal and strategy are two different things.Lots of kicks in the wc arsenal...usage of them depends on strategy.
Yuenfan the immortal-replying to the personal note from mortal.

[mortal]

This is just another thread were I tryed to share my experiance and was ripped apart. I think people should think before they post and reread their posts. I only got one positive response. The rest are supporting each others arguments. Maybe from now on I should keep everything I learned under wraps. You make it personal with your verbal attacks. If your impression is that I am some herb you could abuse, you have another thing coming! So far its been 2 strikes one more and I'm out. I'll leave you all to quoting each other and talking with disrespect. Martial arts haven't taught some of you the main thing. Its called respect. I train under Sifu Jose Grados. I welcome anyone to come and see what I can do. I'm not bragging but I don't suck. I'l suprise you.


Anthony

[yuanfen]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mortal
Martial arts haven't taught some of you the main thing. Its called respect.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Also posted by mortal:You think your a real wc guy lol.? Whatever.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These two posts by you mortal dont jibe.
Are you showing respect yourself?
Why not provide specific analysis of wing chun-
a constructive route to go?

[mortal]

Every art has a little something lacking. I found that with wing chun it happened to be defense against kicking. The guy wanted to know how to defend against Wing chun. To be honest I don't really think you should go on the defensive with a wc fighter. So I found from direct experiance a good kicking offense is very usefull. Then I start hearing stuff like "these aren't real wc guys" give me a break. These guys happen to be very good at what they do. In no way was I trying to disrespect them and neither should you.

[dbulmer]

Mortal,
The way your posts are constructed suggest an impatience that comes from an eagerness to learn. However, just because you hear something that you disagree with does not mean it's right to attack the poster. There are no simple answers ! WC takes time to learn because you are having to adjust to a different style.

Relax, listen, talk to your instructor, practice and practice again.


Anerlich,
Thanks for the attempted answer - I guess it's a difficult question to ask on the Internet - as you say I need to train with a BJJ guy which I hope to do in the not too distant future.


Yuanfen

"Shouldnt waste time on sparring until good fundamental skills are developed ". I know I am a novice but surely sparring is important - ok, perhaps the skill level is not right but at least you get to practice footwork or rather how not to do it. You quickly become aware of your limitations and this need not be demotivating provided the teacher provides good feedback on what is not right plus it's also pretty good aerobic exercise helping to build stamina. Any comment?

[yuanfen]

Context is important specially in brief internet conversations.
Sparring itself is not the major issue. It is what you do in sparring. Most sparring ends up being very similar. If the wing chun skills are not sufficiently learned first
and practically hard wired and made to emerge spontaneously---
its easy to gravitate towards the common denominator of a narrow contimuum of kick-box-
bounce-grapple that sparring seems to be leading us to. Whatever the art, wing chun, choi li fut, taiji does not get a chance to be integrated into one's motions. And we move further and further away from learning the Chinese martial arts let alone apply them..

mortal- as far as I can tell-on this and other forums- you appear to have the same personal complaints and anger. No one as far as I can tell is deliberately trying to provoke you.

[dbulmer]

Yuanfen,
Fair point ! Plus less prone to accidental injury!!