Lost Arts?

[PJO]

I've often come across martial arts articles that say something like "so and so up until now was believed to be a lost art..." I'd like to know everyones opinion on "lost arts" Do you believe there may be martial arts out there that only a handful of people know? Or do you think every martial art out there is just a branch of an already well known MA. Another question, if someone claims to teach something no one else has is he a nut or could it be possible he has learned a "lost art" Any comments?

[TjD]

that darn lost art of civility, where the heck did that go? :)


as to real lost arts... no clue, dont know enough about them;

however i would like to know what my style used to be like back in the day, and see how its progressed and see the changes that were lost


awe well

peace
trav

[rubthebuddha]

ask the chinese governemnt a few decades back. :mad:

yes, some styles were "lost," as many masters of those arts either fled to avoid persecution, were imprisoned as enemies of the state, or just flat out nixed. :(

and yes, some of those masters resurfaced. if they were dead, they were reburied. if they were still living, they maybe went and taught again, perhaps in hong kong, taiwan or vancouver b.c. :D

it's pretty common, but i'd estimate that most of it is crap. what's worse is that so many westerners give the story of, "i'm the closed-door disciple of this long-lost teacher," or some trash like that. even better? "my master spend the last 10 years of his life as a hermit living with tigers, so his tiger-style is better than all."

great. so the guy can chase down zebras and ****.

but i'm rambling. yes, PJO, it happens, but i would seriously doubt the majority of people who use the long-lost tale as some sort of mystical story to impress. tigers and antelope don't attack you in the city. people do. so study with someone who actually trained with plenty of people (who, as a student themselves, trained with people, ad infinitum), and leave that mystical stuff to george lucas.

[rubthebuddha]

oh, and if he sports a mullet and wifebeater, yet claims to be the direct descendent of musashi or someone just as godly, put your checkbook back in your pocket and get back in your car.

[Shadow Dragon]

There are some "lost" arts , bassically it means that no known lineage holders exists or no known reputed practicioner exists.

Than there are also a lot of Arts like some Tai Chis styles that are only becoming known now as People starting to do research into their History and Lineages.
Or Styles that were assumed to belong to a known style now can show the the are a individual style in their own right.

And than there are the truly "lost styles" that only exist in Histories & Stories.

And finally are the rediscovered "lost" styles that are practiced/learned from old Manuals by some new Masters.
And often I would say those are a bit questionable.

But IMO I think most of those lost styles will most probably be a variant of another style that survived, or became extinct due to other reasons.
Peace.

[Dark Knight]

"But IMO I think most of those lost styles will most probably be a variant of another style that survived, or became extinct due to other reasons. "

I agree, the lost styles are varients of something else, and another came from it.

I know many people today who claim to have created their own style. But they have a small student base and the style will die out with them. this has been going on for hundreds of years.

As far as information lost, there are only so many ways to punch kick and throw, Im sure that precious information did not get lost.

[Paul]

PJO- Unfortunately the made up art that you study hasn't been lost.

those video clips on your website were the funniest thing I've seen in ages. LMAO!!!! B!tchslap bonanza. hahaha

[Brad]

The thug's pretty funny...

[PJO]

I was asking about the term "lost art" in martial arts in general and not refering to my art. If my Dashifu made up Sheng Hun than it would only make me respect him more because he would have to be a genius to have made up such a beautiful and intricate art. I can only say it so many times, "You cannot judge something from a brief glance." I could take a single clip from any art and point out things that make it crap. This would only be from my biased opinion and lack of knowledge about the philosophies of that art. The only way I could make a true judgement would be to experience it myself.

[Paul]

which philosophies of the art am I missing ? the one(s) about flailing your arms around like a girl, while being off balance and jumping around?

[PJO]

Paul, do you have a website? Maybe I can make some snap judgement on your art as a whole based solely on some pictures or better yet clips if you have any.:rolleyes:

[wushu chik]

Well, here we are again PJO. Change your hand techniques from punches, to the "animal" hand techniques that you guys have done and you have KENPO! An offshoot of Tracy! If you don't know who Tracy is, ask your teacher! He knows him well! Tracy knows him!

~Wen~

:D

[dezhen2001]

Wen and Paul: here we go again... :D

I think like RTB said that many people nowadays like to say that they have a monopoly on some 'lost art' - to make them unique and seem spectacular. Pretty much for marketing purposes... But i do think that there are styles that are pretty rare and not so much in the public eye. Heck even something like Xing Yi Quan isn't as well known as Shaolin :)

People add their own personal interpretation to anything that they do, that's why it can be said that everyone is doing their own style anyway imo - no need to break away and 'create' your own, as you already are :D

At the end of the day, i think there are only so many ways that the general human body can move (a head, 2 arms, 2 legs...), so there are many similarities in the systems we have today, and of course there will have been in the past as well. That doesn't mean that they crossover however...

As for the 'lost styles' learned from manuals, scrolls or whatever, i would say that's a bit questionable to say the least. It's just like learning from a book you by from a shop :)

david


--- for some reason it's not letting me post. this is my 3rd attempt... :mad:

[Brad]

Lost arts or the advertisement of,"we're the only school in the world teaching this art" are usually just lies used by people for bringing in buisness, often(but not allways) because the art just can't stand up on it's own. Although there are very rare systems or branches of styles which may have only a couple legit sources like Liu He Ba Fa, etc.


Another question, if someone claims to teach something no one else has is he a nut or could it be possible he has learned a "lost art" Any comments?
usually a nut. allthough I do know of one person who teaches a style no one else has(as far as I know), but it's an old familly style, and as far as I know, he's fairly well respected among traditional teachers here.

[Brad]

And a little off topic but... why put vid clips on a site that don't paint the art in a positive light? And putting a backwards ball cap on a little(r) guy with gray hair does not make a very convincing mugger, lol. Good art or not... those are some aweful clips! He needs new ones.

[guohuen]

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
There are times (like now) that I wish I still lived in Deer Island Oregon.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL on Sheng Hun!!!:p :rolleyes:

[Bolt]

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
... so *that's* why he's so pis#ed at me ! Maybe I'll go back to trying to teach him to fly. Blasted little pot-bellied sucker....

[Hai_To]

You have to love Sheng Hun for this quote alone:

"Shaolin Snake & Crane form - as seen in the original David Carradine movie, "Kung Fu." Only Far East Fighting Arts offers training in this rare form." :rolleyes:

[wushu chik]

Hai_To~
Splendid! You have to wonder what exactly they are teaching! The form from the movie, since David Chow changed it for the movie, or the real form, which I know of MANY schools that teach that form! HMMMMMMMMM!! Since it's FROM the movie, they are right, they are the ONLY school that teaches it EXACTLY like it, because it was ALTERED. Hmmmm, where did they get that form from? LET ME THINK? Nah, don't need to! I KNOW!!!!

And, PJO, if you are telling me if your teacher MADE UP THIS STYLE, and you would have MORE respect for him with all the bs he's throwing about the "War Art" and "Lost Art" stuff, and the supposed history, you are definetly brainwashed! I hope the band you are in does better than your Kung Fu!!!

~Wen~

[David Jamieson]

While there may be lost "style" I do not think there are lost arts.

In the time I have been studying chinese martial arts, I have had a very thorough and traditional teacher and I have had the pleasure of speaking with many other practitioners and having access to many publications, manuals, videos et al.

All I can say is, that there is more overlapping and more in common amongst virtually all martial arts than there are differences.

One of the styles i practice is Bak Sil Lum, I have recently picked up the chinese manual for the complete Cha Chuan and there are remarkable similarities in techniques and form and principles.

Another of the styles I practice is Southern Shaolin Black Tiger and I have all the books by Lam Sai Wing and again, more similarity than difference with little exception.

I have material on Wing Chun written by Lam Wing Kit and they are thorough manuals on the three hand forms of the style. These share a few similarities with techniques found in the Hung Gar found in LSW's books.

I also have a recently acquired the Chinese manual for the 5 major styles of Tai Chi (Chen, Yang, Wu Hua, Wu Jiang and Sun), Once again these styles flow in and out of each other in similarity like water!

All these codifications come from China, written and compiled by chinese Kung Fu masters and their students.

So is anything really lost? I do not think so, I think that transformation and absorption into other styles has occured over time but nothing is lost.

just my opinion, but as much as we may think our styles are radically different, I do not think they are so different at all when viewed with even an intermediately educated eye and an open mind.

peace

[rubthebuddha]

and da mo didn't even phrase it in the form of a question, either. :mad:

brad's right, anyway. if a few seconds of video clip aren't enough to get an idea of an art to impress people, why put them up in the first place if other's cannot scrutinize them?

and the other problems with the idea of lost styles:

1. why was the style lost? was it really not worth remembering, or was the art so hideously bad that invaders made the masters look like the senators during a harlem globetrotter game?

2. why does the instructor find it necessary to say the art was lost in the first place? does that make it any more effective, or does it just add to the art's totally important "cool factor" -- a concept by which all styles are ultimately judged?

3. what is so unique about this current "master" that makes him special enough to bring the "long, lost art" back?

[PJO]

The clips are there for people who haven't taken martial arts and want to get an idea of the flavor of what we do. When you want to get people interested in your school you have to do a little talking it up. I do believe we are the only school in our area (Portland) that teaches the snake and crane form. The website is basically an advertisement, why say come to our school where you can learn what is taught everywhere? And by the way Wendy, I know who Tracey is and so does my teacher. My teacher also knows Wing Lam who was quite impressed with what my teacher does.

[Silumkid]

Is this what we have come to? Using another teacher's good name to try and justify/disprove something else?

We've covered this ground several times already. Wushu, as your senior brother, I'm requesting you no longer pay any attention to PJO. If the other posters here want to be lured in by his crap, let them. It's their problem.

As for you, PJO, I hate to break it to you but Chinese have this thing called "giving face". If your "DaShifu" (which is a made-up term by the way, I did the research...your teacher needs to quit combining titles) studied under a traditional master, he would know this. Likely, IF your teacher ever met Lam Sifu, this is what happened.

Have a nice life.

[Richie]

Well, you arfe right on the most part, but your question 1#. Styles can be lost. Well, not now a days(styles like Hung Gar or something will not be lost anytime soon). However, in the old days, some Chinese teachers were stubborn, and would rather die with the art than share it.

[Fen]

I met Gary, and I believe I saw you, but I was NOT impressed with your KENPO. I have a 2nd Degree in Kenpo, in the Parker System. And what I saw you all doing was KENPO! Little changes here and there, but it's kenpo.

As for Sifu Wing Lam being impressed with your teacher, it is not my place to make judgement, but as a student of his, and of Sifu Kisu, and of Sifu Baugh's, which ALL teach NORTHERN SHAOLIN, I am not impressed with you nor your school.

Sifu Jason VanWinkle

[rubthebuddha]

richie -- you're darn right. as to those three series of questions? mostly jabs and digs meant to knock those goons who say "i'm the heir of a long-lost art that no one else in the world knows. it's such an unknown art, that a chinese master, who had NO desire to teach any of his countrymen, decided to teach me, a random white chump with a desire to make an easy buck.

[Richie]

Do you feel it was true about how they say that Grand Master Yip did that with Wing Chun? What I mean is that GM Yip Man knew 2 or more styles of Wing Chun and only taught a seclect few. I know there is a lot of bad blood in the Wing Chun family.

[PJO]

Jason, you must really have a lot of free time to drive up from Central Point, Oregon just to come into our school under the guise of an interested student and then steal one of our student manuals. For not being impressed with our art you sure do put in a lot of time thinking about us. Maybe we do have something? Anyway what you did was pretty lame. At least you could have introduced yourself.

[PJO]

Da Shifu is not a made up term. Other arts use it:Da-big or great, shifu-teacher.

[rubthebuddha]

nope. i believe that yip man changed his teaching style over the years, and that he discovered new things about his art as he went. i feel that he found benefits in each variation that he taught.

one thing to me is fairly certain -- as he aged, his ability to use strength as a weapon or defense decreased. this is why the students of his that came later, such as my sigung leung ting, have a much softer flavor of the art, where as earlier students, such as william cheung, have a much harder style. my sigung would rather we stick with an opponent until we feel the opening, whereas earlier students of gm yip would encourage more structural strength. a good example? wing tsun never uses the bong sau as a block, rather only as a deformed punch if the weight of the obstacle (another elbow-down punch, a pak sau, etc.) is substantial. earlier students of gm yip use it as an active block, akin to japanese blocks, and i've even seen it reinforced with the wu sau hand (rear/guarding hand). to me, this is unnecessarily using two hands to defend against one attack, and that's usually a nono.

again, that's my opinion -- one of many i have. i believe there are many strengths to be found in each flavor, and i think a lot of the bad blood is caused by each side not accepting this. in addition, each one wants to be the best, and some veteran students may dislike a younger upstart student saying he has all the answers, and some may think that because someone didn't get the whole system that their kung fu isn't that good, and some may think that because they're yip man's kids, that they have all the answers by birth. i can easily say lots of negative things about every student of yip man's, but i'd rather not. what i WOULD like is to see a big wing chun/wing tsun/ving tsun guiness kegger, and let all the grandmasters get sloshed and sing old irish folk songs around the campfire.

sure, it sounds cheesy, but maybe they'd actually get along after that.

[Richie]

I thought a sifu calls his sifu "sifu" and the sifu's student calls him "sigung". Well that how we do it in my school. And, I call my sigung's teacher Si Tai Gung

[Silumkid]

Richie,

In cases where there is no ego involved, this would be true. But that's a whole other box to opened...

There is a Chinese term for "grand master" or "top/big teacher" and it is "dashi". This was confirmed for me by Shawn Liu. See rubthebuddha's posts here to see what could be gained by thinking that putting "dashi" and "sifu/shifu" together would be nifty keen.

We just stoop lower and lower, don't we, PJO? Now you are accusing another poster of being a thief? Hope you have your story straight...I know how much I'd like being called a thief by some keyboard jockey. Quite frankly, if it were me, I wouldn't care if you were "too deadly" to spar with or not.

[Richie]

i stand corrected.

[Silumkid]

No Richie, you were right in the first place. No correction neccessary on your part. I just wanted to point out that there was another term although from what I know, it is not used widely.

[PJO]

Why don't you ask Tao of Wushu(Jason Vanwinkle) yourself what he did. He knows what he did. He came in pretending to be an interested student, asked my Da Shifu a bunch of questions, and stole one of our student manuals. I'm sure he won't deny it. Doesn't seem like very becoming behavior for a Sifu does it?

[Richie]

I know Jason's uncle Rip, but I dont train with him anymore because he is aways tired.:D

[Fen]

PJO
Gary gave me the student manual, and if he didn't want me taking it, then I am sorry for the misunderstanding. If you want it back, i can send it to you.

Furthermore, I came in there looking for answers to questions I had. I did NOT introduce myself as SIFU VANWINKLE for the reason of, you all were in class, and I didn't feel the need for having a huge confrontation. 9 against 1, I just don't think so! So, if you feel that I have hurt your feelings, or insulted your intelligence in any way, so sorry! But, I got the answers to the questions that everyone has been wanting, and since I was there on a business trip already, I dropped by. But, the next time I am up in Portland on a business trip, if you would like, I will drop by and introduce myself.

Be glad it was ME, instead of Wushu Chik, or Silumkid, or someone else on this forum. Most of them would have caused a big scene, and embarassed everyone else involved. And THAT is exactly what I was trying to avoid. You didn't have ANY answers for the questions that I have been asking, so I went to the source.

Answers-
Good Ones First:
Gary- very friendly and nice. good customer service skills! Good with information
If that was you Pablo, that was working with James, compliment to both you guys for the material that you DO have, it looked good.

Bad Ones Next:
To much like kenpo.
Kung Fu uniforms with Karate Belts????????? NOT GOOD
Yellow Gi tops, nice touch, but definetly a sash not a belt!
History- NEEDS A LOT OF WORK
A challenge due to a POSITION of a belt??? What is this?

Again, if there was any misconception about the manual, it will be in the mail tomorrow, and I deeply apologize. But, I do have ONE question for YOU. UNLESS you have something to hide, why would you NOT want people getting ahold of it?? Just curious. As soon as I get my FULL manual done, I will mail it to YOU, free of CHARGE. I am not going to charge 100 bucks to give you a manual, and I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE.

Sifu Jason VanWinkle

[Silumkid]

HEY! :mad: I would not have caused a big scene! Jerk. :p

Of course, I never turn down the opportunity to cross hands either, so if that is a big scene, so be it.

[rubthebuddha]

tao: was i that someone else? :D

and i'd only be making a scene if you categorize "uncontrollable giggling" as scenery. ;)

i still don't think i've gotten over the iron palm stands, which are so delicately labeled "iron palm."

now THAT impresses me. makes me wonder if i should custom stitch the canvas on my rice bags on the wall with the words, "punching bags."

[PJO]

We have nothing to hide. Gary said you could read the manual but specifically said he needed it as it was intended for another student. It would be appreciated if you mailed it back and by the way it's free to our students. As for the belts and gi tops, we are not traditional. Gi tops are more durable and belts are strictly for insentive. Since we are not traditional Shaolin we don't do the sashes. Kempo is just a washed out version of what we do. To us it's very basic and makes a good learning tool. We learn these techniques to teach us some foundation. Once we have the proper basics we learn the pure animal forms, none of which you saw that night. Only black belts see the pure animal forms and I have only seen the Praying Mantis form and only parts of the other forms. They look nothing like the material we teach pre-black belt students. I appreciate your maturity on the situation as this matter is starting to get a little out of control. The whole thing seemed a little under-handed but I accept your apology.
PJO

[Brad]

A question about the history:


When Shaolin temples were burned and the Shaolin monks killed, a small band of monks fled into the Wu Tang Mountains. This small band of Shaolin monks were named triads and trained by Da Mo, their Da Shifu (teacher) and the creator of Law Hon Gung:
Weren't the triads created long long after Da Mo(assuming he actually existed) would have passed away? I'm thinking 19th century.


Buddhist records are a reliable source of historical information, becouse to a great extent, the monasteries stood apart from the conflicts and turmoil that engulfed China over the centuries. While other documents were destroyed, Buddhist records survived.

What records did this history on the website come from?

A couple more questions:
1.Does your school spar?
2.Do they ever(or are allowed to) spar with students from other schools?
3.What's your teachers training background? Who did he learn from? I didn't see the info on the website.

Also for anyone who's fluent in Chinese:
Is Da Sifu a real term in Chinese? I know it could translate to Big Teacher or great teacher I guess... but I've never heard it before. Even acknowledged grandmasters of a style are still called sifu by their students, right? Sounds like an ego trip...

[Brad]

What style of Tai Chi do you guys teach?

[rubthebuddha]

dai-sifu is a term emin boztepe likes to call himself -- basically, elder sifu among other sifus.

basically, i've thought it was similiar to dai-sihing, meaning eldest brother, etc.

the problem with what pjo is saying, though, is that it contradicts with earlier assertions from both he and his school's website. such assertions stated that da shifu was a title that came from the fact that da mo lived on in said instructor, and was the "big sifu" subject not brought up.

get the darn stories straight before you try to bs us again.

[dezhen2001]

i thought the 1st time round someone (maybe even me) brought up the whole Da=big/great thing, and then it was SPECIFICALLY said it was in reference ot the Da in Damo...

Still think your 'history' needs some work though, as it goes against pretty much all the other shaolin derived styles history. Even facts that have come from Shaolin...

Wouldn't it be better to learn the basics of your 'pure animal forms' instead of Kempo and then changing to kung fu??? There is always some foundation that you can learn before training in the complete forms - even if your Sifu created them specially (think the Pinan/Heian katas created by Itosu Ankoh before teaching Kushanku/Kanku Dai).

Silumkid, Tao and Wen: how is everything? hope it's all good :)
just my thoughts,

david

[guohuen]

Dashi is Japanese for nori and dried mackeral broth. Also a popular male nickname in Japan.

[PJO]

I don't believe that refering to my teacher as Da shifu has anything to do with ego. If your teacher asks you to call him sifu do you say "wow this guy sure has an ego!" , no you don't because it's a tradition. In our art the tradition is that a teacher is called a shifu and the shifus' teacher is the Da shifu simple as that. I admit that the history needs a little work, as much of the history is undocumented. As far as basics it's just a matter of choice for my da shifu. He thinks that if you simplify the animals, take out some of the movement, and make it a little harder you get Kempo, thus our basics. It is our philosophy that to develope soft power you first need to develope hard power. Anyway I think I've discussed this topic several times and would like to get on with discussing Kung fu in general.
PJO

[Richie]

How old is your art? 5years old?

[Silumkid]

dez,

All is well on the Western Front...how's your part of the world? All good I hope.

"Our BS team has uncovered evidence that Jack the Ripper may, in fact, have been....The Loch Ness Monster!"

[Okami]

"Lost Art" has become "Flame PJO."

Back to the original question.
If a style is lost and someone claims to be teaching it, is it still lost? To use terms popularized by Prince, or the artist formerly known as "symbol", I guess this type of style would be the "formerly lost art of (insert whatever)."

I do have to agree that with the limited uses of the human body's weapons, the basics of unarmed combat are just about the same for any martial art. A punch is a punch. The differences are how techniques are put together. I know you punch one way, I punch another and Mike Tyson punches still another way, but a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.

PJO,
I am curious. Where did the name "Far East Fighting Arts" come from? I study an eccletic style using elements from many different styles that bears the same name. We use the Japanese version of it though.

[rubthebuddha]

ever since PJO started his time here with a "hey, check out this neat site i found" -- a site that happened to belong to the school he attended and perhaps even worked at -- and he started going back on his earlier comments pretty regularly, few people have bothered to take what he says with anything more than a grain of salt.

personally, i think the majority of his comments and threads are posted with the intent of bringing the focus back on his own school, his own art and his own instructor.

and when you have moderators, who usually avoid stuff like this entirely (good guys, them), saying that your stuff doesn't jive, it's a pretty sure sign that something's fishy.

i think we should consult with the astral spies and see what they have observed.

[dezhen2001]

RTB: read the writing under my name - i am an astral spy! u don't wanna know what i've observed...:D

Silumkid: everythings still going.. U found the Loch Ness Monster wow! :eek: A strange creature huh...

PJO: still sounds crock to me as you keep contradicting yourself from earelier posts, but nevermind, we can get back on topic :)

The differences are how techniques are put together. I know you punch one way, I punch another and Mike Tyson punches still another way, but a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.

But looking at something like Boxing and then something like Taijiquan... they both 'punch' but it's in a very different way. So what makes a current day 'master' qualified to rebuild a 'lost' system from books or scroll sdepicting techniques? For example: do you think that Mike Tyson (for example) as a current 'master of Boxing would be able to apply what he knows to recreate a lost Wudang system? see what i mean?

some thoughts,
david