Question about Kempo

[Richie]

I have a question about Kempo. Why do Kempo styles have that multi-attack thing where they pimp slap the guy 30 times, and the guy just stands there? Oh yeah, lets not forget the "HIT MAN" . 21 hits in 2 seconds? COME ON! Whats the deal?

[rubthebuddha]

dunno, two seconds of sped up video footage, in which you can see 21 hits during that time?

[Richie]

Well, Thats what he says. I dont know. I saw his tape and I felt bad for the people (one which was a friend) who pay 40 bucks USD for it.

[African Tiger]

Edmund Parker.

Two more words: James Mitose

That's the fact, jack... :cool:

[dnc101]

You spelled it with an 'm', which usually denotes Japanese or Okinawan versions. Spelled with an 'n' would be of Chinese origins, and then there is American Kenpo (aka Parker style) which is an entirely different animal. I practice American Kenpo and what you describe does not happen in our system. We train with techniques and every strike is accompanied by the appropriate reaction. And if the technique is done wrong or the strike lands wrong we react to what actually happened, not what was supposed to happen. Also, the dummy doesn't just put out an arm and stand there for you to work on it- he attacks! Obviously at slower speed and reduced force until you've learned the technique. But the idea is to work it up to a full speed and force assault (although I'll admit that not everyone does it this way, that is the way it is supposed to be done). The technique is also done with force, but with control. Our style is noted for being brutal as it was developed for modern American streets. We destroy joints and break things. And we don't just 'pimp slap'- like most martial arts we use all the natural weapons. Not the kind of stuff you want to do to your partner. There are some out there who sell flash and dash and seperate you from your cash, I suppose. Frauds are no respectors of styles. It's too bad, but I guess the best advice anyone could give on these videos, or even personalized training, is let the buyer beware.

[Richie]

What are you talking about Japanese and Chinese? Kenpo is not Chinese? Neither is Kempo. I spoke to a few Japanese friends about that M and N thing and they said it just matters which romaji you use. Kenpo is the older style and Kempo is the new style. The older style was invented by the Japanese society of letters. The new style was the westerners version. The ironic thing is that the new style is older than the old style. I say new style becauseit is used now. The old style uses "tu" instead of "tsu" and "jya" instead of "ja". There are a lot more, but the n and m thing is one of them.
Now there is kenpo in China just like there is TKD, Karate and Judo, it isn't Chinese.
That M and N thing was made up to make a style seem special.

[diego]

Richie, basically what you are saying then is james mitose the founder didnt learn from chinese/monks?.

[Richie]

I'm saying that Kempo and Kenpo are the same.

[diego]

Now there is kenpo in China just like there is TKD, Karate and Judo, it isn't Chinese.

this is the end and at the beginning you clearly stated that

[diego]

Bruce Juchnik currently heads heads mitose's worldwide kosho ryu kenpo system


IK:can you give us a brief biographical sketch of James Mitose?.

BJ: well, mitose, of course, is the one who brought kenpo/kempo to the west.

IK: i notice you use a "slash" in thier. do you believe it should be spelled with a m or a n?.

BJ: Well, thiers a big controversy over that. Maybe i can clear that up once and for all, although these days its proper to use ewither one. It really should be kempo, with a m, james mitoses bhuddist name was kenpo sai kosho. i learned through talking with mitose that the term kenpo resulted from a misspelling in mitoses first book. i believe that the publisher took the spelling of mitoses name and confused it with the spelling of the system. Today, even we use the "n".

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Richie
Now there is kenpo in China just like there is TKD, Karate and Judo, it isn't Chinese.
That M and N thing was made up to make a style seem special.

The histories I've read say it originated in China. You and your friends can believe what you like about the origins of Kenpo, as well as why we use the "m and n thing". My advice is to enjoy your own art (assuming you practice a martial art) and not get angry at a whole group of styles with a common name/ origin because you got took for forty dollars for a bad tape. If you were asking for information, I gave you what I see in my style. If you are trolling for a cyber fight, it ain't gonna happen here as they are a waste of time. Have fun!

[Richie]

You can think what you want. I always wondered how hack styles of martial arts stay around.

Yo man! You can say that most (not all) MA came from China, but that is generalizing. Kenpo or Kempo (what ever you want to call it) is someones interpretation of Chinese MA and in most cases not a good one.

[triad]

If you want to find out the background of james mitose, look at the site www.tracyskarate.com He was one of the senior students of Ed Parker and has lots of history about mitose and kempo origins ect. By the way James Mitose was born in Hawaii and went back to Japan as a child. It was in Japan he was taught the Kenpo system.

[MoiFah]

Based on this, it most likely originated in china.


During the Sui period, approximitly forty years or so after the death of Bodhidharma it is told that brigands assaulted the Shaolin monetary; one of many attacks that would occur until the early twentieth century. During this first invasion, the monks attempts at defending there temple where futile, there skills where not attuned to fighting techniques and it looked as if the temple would fall. A monk of the temple, with reference only as the "begging monk", during the last seige of the temple by the brigands attacked several of the outlaws with an array of aggressive hand and foot techniques, killing some and driving the remaining attackers away. The other monks where so inspired by the display of this single priest that they requested tuteledge in this martial style as a means of protection. In later scripts this fighting art was recorded as Chuan Fa or Fist Method.

Over several decades the fighting arts of the Shaolin temple grew and where said to prosper over 400 arts in total over the next several centuries. Several decades after the fight of the begging monk, a master of Chuan Fa called Ch'ueh Taun Shang-jen was said to have rediscovered the original Shih Pa Lo Han Sho which had been lost for many years. Ch'ueh over a period of time integrated his art of Chuan Fa with that of Lo Han increasing the total number of techniques from the original eighteen to total of seventy-two. For several years after this period Ch'ueh travelled the country side of China promoting his art in several gruelling fighting matches until he came upon a man named Li in the province of Shensi. Li, a master of Chuan Fa as well as other martial ways (including rumours of Chin Na) travelled and trained with Ch'ueh for some time developing the ciriculim of Chuan Fa to form a total of one-hundred and seventy techniques. Furthermore, they categorized these techniques into five distinctive groups distinguished by various animals who instinctive reactions best reflected the movements of this new Chuan Fa. Upon there return to the Shaolin temple of which both Li and Ch'ueh belonged they presented to the other monks wu xing quan, the five animal form and brought to the Shaolin temple a new stage in martial arts evolution.

Over the next several centuries the history of Chuan Fa and its advent to Kempo is ragged in its tales and difficult to gain accurate descriptions. What is known is that the art of Chuan Fa remained and is still practiced in China, but its teaching also found its way to Okinawian Islands and the Ryukyu kingdoms as well as Japan. In both places, the art was referred to as Kempo or Law of the fist. Between the Sui and Ming periods (an 800 year gap) it is considered that many a wandering monk travelled across Japan and Okinawa bringing with them a working knowledge of the art of Kempo which explains its wide-spread distribution. The art of Chuan Fa which translates into Kempo would have been taught as a supplement to the daily spiritual training the monks endured. Many of the monks would often choose disciples or teach at various Buddhist temples bringing forth the word of Buddha, and the power of Chuan Fa. From there the art of Kempo could easily spread among the commoners and nobles alike

Another reason for the founding in Kempo can be seen in the numerous trips the Japanese and Okinawian made to China to learn the fabled art of Chuan Fa.

[TenTigers]

Most of Ed Parker's, and therefore Tracy's Kenpo came from William Chow, not Mitose. Tracy has a habit of jumping on the bandwagon and changing boats midstream, but if you read Infinite Insights into Kenpo, you will see Ed Parker's point of view, and therefore Tracy's -no matter what story he is telling(selling) this week.

[omegapoint]

MAs History 101-"American" Kenpo:

James Mitose was no master of anything. He was a swindler and possibly an accessory to murder. Using Chuan Fa or any other combat system as a means to extort money from unknowing Hawaiian immigrants is against the spirit of self-actualization. I doubt he really had any knowledge of a legit system beyond the intermediate level. IMHO.

Kenpo is Japanese for Chuan Fa which is the real term for the Chinese fighting traditions (not Kung Fu). Shorinji Kempo, a Japanese art that incorporates Cha'an/Zen Buddhism in its teaching methods, is an old Japanese system. I doubt very seriously that what Mitose knew or taught had any connection to this system. This style predates even Okinawan Karate.

Okinawan Kenpo, or Okinawan Fist Style, is a generic term used to denote the old Chinese influenced fighting traditions of the Ryukyus. Its funny to say to a practitioner knowledgeable in Okinawan Ti/Te history, because supposedly all Okinawan MAs came from a root of some Chinese Chuan Fa (Ken Po) school with a lot of indigenous fighting methods thrown in and often Samurai fighting styles like Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu. Shaolin Kenpo became ShuriTe/TomariTe which became "Shorin Ryu". Shorei Kenpo became Shorei Ryu or NahaTe which became Goju Ryu. Isshin Ryu is a combo of both schools of thought. Later Tiger Chuan Fa as learned by Kanbun Uechi in China became Uechi Ryu.

These modern Americanized systems that call themselves Kenpo or Kempo, are just a shadow of the arts from which their ideas came. There was a large Okinawan Kenpo influence, but much was missing due to the lack of long-term, qualified Karate instructors on the Hawaiian Is. so they "invented" their own Kenpo Karate (kinda' redundant). They've experimented over the decades with combining principles of various old jutsu systems and modern sportive arts. In a way they are reinventing the wheel. Still, many are good systems and have offered the modern MAs world great practitioners and fighters like Ed Parker and Chuck Lidell.

Don't forget this post. This is like the upteenth time that Kenpo history and such has been explained on KFO. Memory is crucial in all aspects of life. Train it by remembering the lucid, salient points and responses, not just here but in life.

[African Tiger]

Like other beaten to death speutum on this board (CMA vs BJJ, ad nauseam), it will invariably come up again.

Just as soon as Ralek's preschool class gets out for summer vacation :rolleyes:

[diego]

So what is up with william chows kempo?, i know he died homeless and didnt teach upto the last decade or so of his life!.
In a article with kajukenbo founder emperado he says william chow is the one who really taught mitose ran the books in his class!. TenTigers do you know Whats up with chows kempo?, what is it?, any idea how it influenced kajukenbo?.

Richie im told those bitvhslap drills are suppossed tobe similar to some forms have a accompanied twoman set, they are supposed to be combinations of the central application also the variations gives one a basic idea about hidden applications within a forms section!. Say you learn a basic form your then given ten-twenty combo drills for you to better understand the generic applications within the set= Basically its the same as a two man set, just shortened and more generic, it gives you an idea about applying differant footworks to the essential tools"claw-spear hand etc" and it also gives a beginner a good idea about followthrough!. in the style i do kajukenbo mixed with hopgar they do these but you are also suppossed to do the combo not only as a basic reactionary device on a attacking partner, in my style thier is form behind each combo wich you do solo, basically its just mathematical variations of basics, you start off slow, then with form and speed then form speed and power. Thier is also twoman sets at the more advanced level, and your suppossed to hardcore spar. i dont think there is any exercises similar to wingchun sticky hands and taichi pushhands.
Richie in taishing/pekwar how do you guys study to apply your skills?, i hope to eventually drive out to richmond and sign up at your masters school!.
Peace

[NorthernMantis]

William Chow's.. isn't that what that guy Sam Kuoha teaches? Chinese Karaho Kempo karate?<-- the name of the style is rather ironic since kempo is more Japanese based. I'm not partial to it as I seen it on magazines on how to take multiple opponent's at once and they did things' that would get you killed i.e. there's one guy with his gun pointed to your belly and another guy behind you. Ka'Imi KuoHa does a bkack kick to the guys shin behind her and then kicks the guys gun. What is that all about? If there is a guy in front of you with a gun why are you going to attack the guy behind you first?From what I understood William K. Chow wanted to make Kempo more Chinese and added more to what he learned.

I heard when William K. Chow was alive in Hawaii he would peek over his fence with Ed Parker to watch a kung fu master train his student. Is that true?

[dezhen2001]

It all gets confusing when you start saying the name Shorinji Kempo... The style i trained in (Shorinji Kempo) was created by Doshin So in 1947, based on his knoweledge of Chinese MA and Japanese MA.World Shorinji Kempo Organization (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/index.html)

Are you talking about the Southern systems that influenced Okinawan MA (5 ancestors, crane etc.) or what? It's interesting that there is still an 800 year gap in the history of things though - a pretty big one!

david :)