Creating / Evolving / No More Boundaries

[The Willow Sword]

I titled this thread that because i really want to know if there are any of you out there who have shed the boundaries of "style" and begun to create yourself and your art. i have been doing this for a while now but i do not profess to be a teacher or master of it. i feel as though i have learned enough of the form world and now focus on a few things. i find myself getting swept up in the movement and i just go with whatever the moment guides me to do. as a practitioner and a teacher at times i know the value of having a good foundation of teaching in the beginning. then there is the aftermath when you forget what you have learned and just simply move. bruce lee attempted to do this by teaching his "OWN" system. and caught a lot of hell for it. he then became a movie star and the rest is history. i do not wish to become a movie star nor do i wish to start the Bratcher-do
school. but i do have this need and desire now, as bruce did, to let go of all the stuff and shape myself rather than have another style or system shape me, this is partly why i am an independant.
my question to all of you out there is this:
AM I TRULY EVOLVING IN THIS MANNER? IS THIS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE?
Many Respects, The Willow Sword.

[guohuen]

I believe a person is supposed to evolve with their style and hopefully contribute something to it. I wouldn't try to change anything with less than ten years of quality training though. I did and made a mess of everthing. Took years to find my base and start again. Now I can comfortably add chi gong from any style to my training and benifit from it because I understand the root. As for fighting technique I'm still stripping away what seems unnessesary for me, ie. high kicks and closed fist punches. I'll teach them but won't use them myself. The style I practice has more forms than I could ever possibly remember ( I know two of the five common sets in hung gar) so it seems unlikely that I will contribute anything anytime soon. I do practice much more soft/hard than most practictioners I've met, but I think this is natural for older people. As for passing anything along I prefer to teach chi gong to people whom already have martial skills.

[Okami]

Evolution is necessary for growth.

Willow Sword, I think you are on the right path. I also agree with the post that said something like, don't go changing things without 10 years of quality training. Experience is everything.

I practice a style that was born from the same kind of process that you are beginning to discover. From beginning to black belt level the curriculum teaches the basics from a few different styles, and we touch base with and practice even more in class that are not part of the curriculum.

After black belt there are no set standards for promotion. Independent study and exploration of martial arts of any style are encouraged. I have a rare instructor that encourages us to train with other instructors of other styles. More than once he has recommended that I go and talk to / train with an instructor that has a more in-depth knowledge about something I am curious about.

This open-minded approach to studying martial arts seems to be unique in this world of "corporate karate."

Keep cross training and keep coming up with your own ideas. Train with anybody and see if your ideas are worth keeping.

Above all else, have fun.

[guohuen]

LOL at Okami! I LOVE blazing saddles!:D :p

[Dark Knight]

The 10 year minimum is very true. I have met people who are 3rd degrees or under who think because they "Studied" a couple styles they have combined them to make their own. All they did was throw together a bunch of techniques and said they discovered something.

Your at a state that is going beyond style. So many people want to talk about the advantages of a style, but the advantages are when you go beyond that state.

I hold black belts in a couple styles, after years of learning everything I could I got to the point where I was dumping information that was not useful. We all reach this point, even when you stay in a certain style and teach it, you cant help but change things. You keep the forms the same but your own style of fighting will come through.

It has to be a natural event, not brought on by the desire to create a style, but to develop yourself to a higher level of understanding.

Your reactions and techniques come from not a constant drilling to react, but from a feeling of what should flow and happen due to natural movement. Its like a conversation, after years of speaking you are no longer just repeating words and frases that you have heard, but developed a speaking style that is distinctly you.

I still teach the base style I have done for over 20 years, but if you went to a school that taught the same named style you can see the difference in the techniques. This is common in all styles, walk into two different schools where the instructors have been teaching for over 10 years and you will see two different ways to the same system.

[Richie]

Sorry Willow, but I disagree with you. I can understand how you feel, but you have to master a style first, then reflect and add you own flavor. It seems that a lot?of westerners think they can just create their own style or art. Is it possible? Yes, but still it not the desire alone.

You mention master Lee. Yes, did create his own style (didn't finish), but he was kind of special. I would say he was one of the few M. Jordans of MA. Plus, he trained hard everyday and studied A LOT about MA.

Just find a style you like and try to master it. It will take you about 15 to 20 years of hard training and study (10 if u are good. Dont create a hack style.

[HongKongPhooey]

A person inflicts boundries apon a style not the other way round. Imagination is the key to unlocking the treasues within an art. Free your mind and the rest will follow.

[The Willow Sword]

Richie: i really do not know what Mastery truly is when it comes to martial arts. i know about the mastery of the self, thats about it.

as far as everyone elses responses, i agree with the 10 yr minimum, i have had over 16 yrs in the martial arts, but not committed to one system in those 16 and ongoing yrs.
when i do a form or a routine and then i begin to create it out of nothing i try not to make as though i am doing some sort of improv dance routine. based on the years of what i have studied amidst the controversy of where i once was, i begin to understand the aspects behind the combination of movements itself. in this i feel like i truly am "harmonizing" myself.

i like to think back to ancient times when these systems were being created out of the blue and tested. no thought as to what to base the system on, it was just created.

Many Respects, The Willow Sword

[HongKongPhooey]

Do you understand movement?

[The Willow Sword]

Man I had better understand movement. I do it everyday.;)

Many Respects, Thw Willow Sword

[triad]

The difficulty in not commiting to one style for any great length of time is learning the true knowledge of that style. It is usually not a good idea to switch masters to train under every few years because you will never get to the higher levels and deeper meanings of the art. If someone has trained for 10 years and learned at 5 different schools it is more likely that they are a jack of all trades and a master of none. Someone who has trained for 10 years or longer in the same style will have a much deeper understanding and then is not really changing the style but learning how to make the movements work for them.(I think a lot of people get to that point and instead of realizing that they are using the aspects of the style that work for them and feel good they start creating their own style) I think it is just a natural progression to make the style your own. Everyone will add their own flavor to something once they understand it.
Just remember someone could go to a university for 15 years, but if they switch majors every 3 years that doesn't give them the equivelent of earning a P.H.D.

[The Willow Sword]

How many ways can you punch? how many ways can you kick? how many ways can you defend? there seems to be MANY. yet when you get down to the basics there is only one way to punch and one way to kick and the challenge is discovering the many ways in which to defend against such punch and kick.
i like to think that the different "styles" that are out there play on the same method of throwing a punch and a kick.
a jack of all trades as suggested would seem to be more in tune with the many ways in which to execute movement rather than being locked into one specific "way". mastery of movement is easy i believe. mastery of the essence behind it and the timing is the challenge. i find that the more you let go of the ingramatic pattern and reaction the more you "flow".
i dont discount martial styles, ALL have something to teach.

Many Respects The Willow Sword

[Richie]

Willow,
I understand how you feel. However, the way you thow that basic punch or kick is very important. It takes a lot of time and a good teacher's help. You may think you are doing it right but you not.
Have you ever been learning a new technique from your teacher and you think you are doing it right, but your teacher say "no, do it again"? It takes time for a good teacher to feel out his/her students so he/she can teacher them the best way. This training cant be done by yourself or if you keep switching teachers.

Believe me. Find a style or art that you like, and stick with it. Then, that style will become your style.

[HongKongPhooey]

There are many ways to punch, but only one in and one out. There are many way to kick, but there is only one up and one down. Read Jons sig. it's very enlightening. Until you can work in priciples what you do will mean nothing.

[The Willow Sword]

SEE thats why i just stick to Hsing-i now. its simple, direct, focused. but i truly understand where everyone is coming from.
this is a good discussion folks. Thanx

Many Respects,, The Willow Sword:)

[PaulLin]

I think this can be like writing a book. Do feel free to write in your own way as you see it fit, but don't forget to cite them properly as where you have got them form.

The jack of all trades issue, I think there is about how well you can orginize the styles that you have learned and yet, it mostly would take over 15 to 20 years of total commitment in training. That is why ShiaoLin in the past can do that better than others, they are monks,and have not many life issues to worried about, they can spend more time, mind, energy in kungfu if they want. If you can orginized your styles like massproductions--in which each of the style serves in certain functions and helpes eachother in training rather than separate your focus, time, energy while trying to train them all. In your case, if you are training in XingYi now, you will first achieve the posture that will united all you body parts and controlled by the center. You will also build a close relationship with ground, as the roots. Then you will use the ability of how good your unity of body is to create forces form the gorund roots. Then you will experience how the lines(meridiums) in your body react and help the forces in action and united the forces and controll it's direction. Then you will know how to open the door and design your force to follow up. XingYi can build up the Qi-strengh the fastest, but not the most sensitive in compare with BaGua or TaiChi. These are the advantages of XingYi I can dig out form the top of my head, It has help me to fill the not-so-advantage sides of other styles, such as ShuaiChaio, TanTui, BaGau, Taichi. They really would help eachother if you organized them correctly and won't have to spend much of extra time to train them all.

But then again, they would blend up and kind of look like each other, as being modified by eachother. Although I still would introduce the way each styles they used to practiced when teahing, but I don't practicing that way myself.

[The Willow Sword]

Paullin: i have learned the classical Pakua form and i do that as well as the hsing i. the things that you describe are exactly what i am experiencing. that is why i like hsing-i and pakua above all other "styles" i have explored and studied. my committment to the internal arts has been 8 yrs so far. add in another 8 yrs to that for the other styles that i have done, aikido, shaolindo, shotokan, and you begin to see,, or at least i do now, where i am headed.
i have been thinking about a book(writing one that is) but i am far from ready to write down anything that will be of any use to people right now. i am going to wait until i reach a more seasoned age before i commit to that project.

the mission for me right now is to continue to train and to create and grow and live my life.

Many Respects, , The Willow Sword

[PaulLin]

Take care with the practicing and wishes you the best:)

PS. all the requirements that you learned in XingYi, is the requirements you must defend/maintain. And when use, you must make your opponent lost these requirements so your moves can be easily applied. That is how the application was made form.

[nospam]

The Willow Sword,

It is my belief that martial arts, especially gung fu, is but a study in movement. Thus said, any system or style is but one means of many to achieve the same end.

When a practitioner can achieve a sense for natural movement, then mastery of their style is not far from reach. This is not to say one achieves mastery of movement, but of the path traversed that brought them back into a natural balance with movement. At this point, there is no right or wrong or better or worse. Yes, ability will always play a factor, but it is not ability in one’s style, it is the ability of the disciple to maintain balance between chaos and order.

It sounds to me as if you are at least aware, and/or have experienced the balance martial art training can impart. And as far as I am concerned, this is a primary aspiration in my gung fu. In achieving balance, it is critical to always maintain the discipline our foundational years produced. Plus, it is my opinion/belief that balance is transitory by nature. It is in flux. As balance is but one state of movement…

nospam.
:cool:

[The Willow Sword]

the movement of a fight is different than that of the routines that we go through in training, in my humble opinion one needs to shed the routines in order to be successful in a fight if one is drawn to that aspect of the arts itself. that is why i like to create movement in my training. if i can be just as spontaneous and REAL with my movements in training then i can shed this "what should i attack with first?" thought and just act as i should act.

i still love doing forms,,,the hsing i routines and the pakua stepping provides all that I really need. i dont mind the repetition of it for i tend to break the repetition and based on my prior forms training i create.

how difficult would you say it is to take on a good opponent with this thought process?

MAny Respects , The Willow Sword