What do you think about a dummy made from cedar?

[gnugear]

I found a bunch of logs that are the perfect size for a dummy. In my never ending quest to abuse myself, I thought I might try carving a new one since the wood is there for the taking. Only problem is that the guy said they were cedar logs.

Anyone know the proporties of cedar? Is it too soft, too light, will it crack more etc., etc.

[TenTigers]

it will keep moths away from your kung-fu uniform

[gnugear]

Originally posted by TenTigers
it will keep moths away from your kung-fu uniform

....mmmmm, smells good too:)

[kj]

The great dummies were built from teak. Oak and rock maple are popular substitutes. These types of hardwoods are great dummy material, for the desired weight and responsiveness. On the downside, they can be a bear to chisel (so I am consistently told, and can well imagine).

Cedar will tend to be soft to medium soft, and lighter in weight. Cedar would have the advantage in easier construction, but not in use.

Also, FWIW, while a solid log body is romantic, a well laminated one will be very durable and better resist cracking. Even kiln dried logs tend to crack over time.

YMMV.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[IronFist]

Or, because cutting holes through a piece of wood would be hard, you could use a piece of Schedule 80 PVC pipe with 8" inner diameter. The outter diameter is 8.6", the perfect size for a dummy. Cutting holes in plastic is much easier than chiselling them out of a solid wood log.

Just a suggestion,

IronFist

[yuanfen]

Much depends on how long you want the dummy to last.
Cedars, pines and evergreens would not be my choice.
Good teak is getting rare with deforestation in key teak areas.
KJ is right - a well made laminated oak dummy will generally do well.

[Mr Punch]

Don't use cedar.

Some people will tell you that the amount of actual contact that you have with the wood renders the following information irrelevant. Some people will also tell you that it doesn't matter because it'll be covered with some kind of finish or preservative when you finish it. They will also tell you that it doesn't matter what kind of preservative you use, because it's not going to get engrained in your hand or enter your bloodstream. These people don't know what they're talking about.

All timber contains (sometimes dangerous, sometimes beneficial to humans) chemical compounds known as exudates, for preservative and defence purposes mostly. This includes stuff like the salicylic acid in willow, birch and maple species which was used to make aspirin, and astringents and repellants in pine resin which make it useful as an ingredient in disinfectant, as well as the compound in juniper that has made it a traditional material for baby spoons as pacifiers for centuries (it will sure keep'em quiet!).

Cedar will keep the moths away from your uniform because it(among many coniferous timbers) contains some rather nasty numbers which are highly carcinogenic and can cause serious allergic reactions (but they do smell good!). The rate of skin cancers, lung cancers, allergic shock and non-specific lung diseases is significantly higher with people working with some of these timbers than in the general population. With a dummy, lung problems would probably be largely insignificant, but skin cancer would be a definite risk, especially if you sustain damage to your skin on your hands.

As Joy says, evergreens are not a good choice. Their impact and crush resistance is not so good either.

As also stated, oak is pretty good. If you get properly cured stuff, you shouldn't need preservative as oak is high in preservative tannins (I've worked with two-hundred year old untreated oak fencing in permanent contact with soil - after that, it gets a bit dodgy!!:D). I don't know for a fact, but there is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that prolonged contact with oak actually hardens your hands, due to these tannins. Don't forget these are the same substances that are used to cure leather and in various industrial hardening processes.

One extra note (sorry, more rhubarb), don't worry too much about teak. As Joy says it's not so easy to find good teak, but I think this is largely due to nomenclature. The International Timber Growers' Federation did a survey that found that timber from around 160 different tropical/subtropical trees was known colloquially or on trade lists as 'teak'. I suspect a few of these are endangered, but real teak (tectonia grandis) is not in such a bad way due to international pressure for forest practice certification and key reforestation projects, and anyway, you are unlikely to find it at your 'local neighbourhood dummy store'!

Most 'thai teak' weapons in martial arts stores are in fact shorea species (I seem to remember this isn't such a good choice, but I can't remember the properties offhand!) or quercus species: good old oak! The 'Japanese red oak' ones are often something else (except over here!!): they look a kind of pinky-red. The real stuff is a more foxy red, with fairly uniform close long grain.

Hope this is some use! Check your timber before you buy!

Do you know what your supplier's using, Joy? (Not taking the p, just wondering :) )

[yuanfen]

Do you know what your supplier's using, Joy? (Not taking the p, just wondering )
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My student Dave Lidell(in the site next to mine<www.azwingchun.com>) usualy uses American Oak which he laminates very well himself. He knows his woods and wood workmanship. My custom made oak dummy has absolutely no cracks or warps or visble signs of wear at the dummy or slat holes.
My Koo Sang teak dummy is doing well too- but I oil it a bit more than the oak- because Arizona has some of the lowest humidity.
I dont like PVC dummies- they dont give me the same hand "feels".
I have a pine dummy that I dont use that has cracks and wear on them(a wushu friend of mine helped ruin it a bit by trying to hammer(!) the slats in)- so I speak from experience on evergreen, teak and oak.
Mexican ironwood a very hard wood could possibly do well- the Seri
Indians of mexico have very beautiful wood long lasting wood
sculpture-birds and animals with them.
last i saw my sifu had a Vietnamese teak dummy for sale made bya Chinese carpenter. You are right about varieties of teak.
When I go visit calcutta i still sleep on the huge teak family bed
that was my mom's wedding gift. Still solid as ever, no termite damage-in that great tropical humid heat.
I realize that there are all kinds of dummy options- but it seems to me- that if one is in wc for the long run it's worth gettinga dummy that is most likely to last a lifetime. Fong's school has several dummies set up. His old teak one that he brought with him from HK years ago is still in good shape after tremendous use.I know that one can get by with less.
There are some dummies in several training places-Inosantos, Degerbert etc--- that have cracks in them. Sorry- no time to paste and spell check etc- wish that there wasa forum spell check mechanism that would not need cutting and pasting.

[IronFist]

Whoa, Mat, you know a lot about wood!

IronFIst

[gnugear]

Matt, that was a ton of really great and informative information.:)

I currently own (made) a evergreen dummy from local Washington state pine. I finished it with marine varnish and hate the feel of it. It also has a "softness" to it that I don't care for.

I was planning on making a laminated one later this summer and my local supplier has ash at a really great price. Are there any tanins, chemicals, etc. that you know of with this wood?

I also want to finish this one with oil so it retains a natural feel. I was thinking of tung oil. Is this the oil of choice for finishing a dummy?

[gnugear]

One more question Mat. I've heard that white oak is highly recommended over red oak. Is there a reason for this? Red oak is much cheaper.

[Mr Punch]

Oils I don't know so well. I've heard tung oil is good, and it's pretty traditional in some quarters, so it's probably quite good. Haven't researched it myself. I have been advised to use it for bokuto, and the properties you might want in a good bokuto are not a million miles away from those in a good dummy (except, obviously bokuto have to resist impact with other bokuto).

If it's really white oak (probably is - it's easier to get hold of than real red for some reason) it should have better impact resistance. Shouldn't make THAT much difference in the long run with a dummy (unless you have superhuman striking powers!). A white oak log suitable for a dummy will cause big problems for your kungfu, cos it'll cost you an arm and a leg!!:rolleyes:

Ash should be fine. I'm not aware of any exudates that are harmful to mammals in ash. The one we have mostly in UK is fraxinus excelsior, and I think this is common in north America too. It is strong against impact, stress and crush damage, though considerably stronger lengthways (true of most timbers, but especially ash), hence its prevalent use in European history as spear-handles; it does fine across the grain also - hence its second most common use chronologically, as pickaxe and tool handles. A good all-rounder, but not quite as good an ager as oak: oil it well as it gets older.

By the way, ash is an excellent firewood (it burns a long time and gives off plenty of heat), so if you ever get ****ed off with your training...:D

Joy: thanks for your reply. Ironwood!? I have a friend who made a bokuto from ironwood: it's really heavy and hard as nails (if you're not careful it'll mess up good tools too), but strangely for its density, the impact resistance is not so good (produces lots of little splinters) and I've heard it can be a touch brittle against hard targets.

Could you ask your friend what he thinks of linden (tilia spp). How would that be as a laminated dummy timber? It used to be used for shield laminates (hence linden - from old German linde, for shield) throughout Europe, so it should be great for a dummy... not sure about the shrinkage though...

[stuartm]

The arms and leg will need to be hardwood as they will take most of the stress- cherry or oak are strong and relatively cheap. The body of mine is pitch pine )telegraph pole - cost £20 and ideal diameter) with oak hardwood arms and its been outside in the rain, and thrashed regularly for the last three years and no problem whatsoever. When the weathers fine give it a light rub down and lube it with danish oil (varnish is useless) so that the wood will stretch with the changing temp. My old sifu has two made exactly the same way and kept outside and theyve lasted him 7 years so far !!

There is a pic of me on the mook under training info at :

http://mysite.freeserve.com/swanseawingchun

I will try to post a bigger pic. By the way the leg is a steel scaffolding tube bent using a pipe bender. Unbreakable !!!

Stuart

[gnugear]

cherry or oak are strong and relatively cheap

Interestingly, my local supplier said ash was the cheapest, with cherry coming in a close second. I can't imagine a cherry dummy looking anything but stunning. Maybe I'll mix it up and make my arms out of cherry.:)

FWIW I made a phone call and the wood guys recommended the white oak over red because of the smell. He said that red oak smells like pee.:(

[reneritchie]

I'm not sure that *all* the great dummy bodies were built from teak, rock maple, or any hardwood. Actually, when I looked up the character for the wood I found used commonly in China, it wasn't a hard wood at all. Then again, Yip Kin's dummy in Malaysia was iron, so I guess there's a range.

In the end, humans are neither hardwood, softwood, or iron, so use what you have and if it ends up being too hard or too soft, you'll have to look for something else.

Rgds,

RR

[Mr Punch]

Rene, what was the Chinese one?

[TargetAlex]

I made a cedar mook, because I had lots of cedar available to me. Here are some of my observations:

1) When the cedar was drying, it split. Cedar always will by the nature of the way the the wood grows. That's why it is great for shingles and shims, and not so great for mooks.

2) Drilling the holes for the arms and leg was a b**ch, again due to the way the wood grows layered. I completely destroyed the first electric drill I was using. You see, as you drill into the body, the sections want to come away, and the bit catches the edges that are created, and really burned out the motor. It is difficult to describe the 'sections', but anyone who has tried to drill into cedar knows what I am talking about.

3) To reinforce the body, I used those wire thingys that plumbers use to clamp rubber hoses to pipes. I had to link three of them to get around the diameter of the body, and put one high, one middle, and one low. I have since put padding over them so that I don't get cut on them when I strike the body. These clamps have successfully prevented the body from splitting anymore.

4) Cedar is a soft wood, so after a year of use, the holes for the arms have been widened from usage. I have now had to reinforce the holes by making new holes in a smaller piece of hardwood and screwing them over the existing holes. Works, but I don't know how long it will last.

All in all, i don't recommend cedar. Maintenance has been a pain. Next one will be hadrwood.

Everywhere I have read recommends that you use a hardwood that is native to your area. This means the wood will do well in your humidity/climate, and last for much longer.

-Alex

[yuanfen]

Target Alex- Doesnt surprise me. While in China they used different woods. .. you have to make your dummy last where you are. Wing chun is wing chun- but nature has her ways.