the concept of covering

[churn-ging]

How many of you here practice the concept of covering?

I was talking to another wing chun person the other day and this topic came up. He said that he never learned or heard of this concept before. So I was just wondering how many people here have heard of and practice this concept?

[yuanfen]

What exactly do you mean by covering? The details are important to the understanding- because there can be equivalencies without it
being the same. If by covering you mean the kwan aso illustrations given before- i dont do it that way. But if you define the concept we can talk some more.

[aelward]

As Joy has written, "covering" could mean a lot of different things. Here's how I see it, based on a lesson from SiFu Duncan Leung:

Covering is the idea of using hand motions and body positions to seal off your open gates with relation to an opponent. Before forming a bridge, your visual reflexes may not be fast enough to stop an attack; therefore, you can position yourself in a way to limit his choices, and move your hands to intercept whatever comes in. So instead of using a motion that covers against either attack "A", "B", or "C", you will choose a motion that could potentionally deal with all of the attacks.

For example, if facing against a boxer in a left lead, you can reposition yourself to his left and enter with a right punch over his lead hand while using an wu sao to cover your own left gates against uppercuts, crosses or long hooks.

Or, against a kickboxer in a left lead, you could enter to his right while using a gang sao motion to cover all areas between your waist and head. Maybe one of your hands will make contact with his arms or legs, and you can use contact reflexes; or, if you don't make contact, your gang sao hands will extend into attacks.

Do I use this idea of covering in my training? Yes.

[Sabu]

What is tan sau, lap sau, pak sau, jut sau, bong sau, etc?

[yuanfen]

Covering is the idea of using hand motions and body positions to seal off your open gates with relation to an opponent.
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Too "general" and too big a motion for me.

[stuartm]

This is open to some interpretation. Covering in some ways can mean prevention. When most students start learning the most common mistake is dropping their Wu Sau or completely forgetting about it! Thus, how can you cover/ prevent / protect without your wu sau. IMHO, this is the most important hand in WC, so I always stress this when i teach

The high gaun sau is also very important in covering against techniques. One problem is people prforming the high gaun incorrectly - many schools use it coming forward so it becomes little more than a jum sau. Gaun sau should sweep across the body in a rolling / deflecting motion. Look at the Bil Jee form and the double gaun sau section. Also on the dummy on the first 2 sections, after you tan and dai jeung, you step with biu ma and perform the double GS - the high gaun should roll across the dummy arm. This move is very effective against close attacks, for examlple if somebody performs huen sau and strike. you can deflect across your body and use the same hand to go straight into fark sau or biu sao. Go to my website -

http://mysite.freeserve.com/swanseawingchun

and click on the 'Training Info' section, and you will see a picture of my Sifu, Samuel Kwok, performing Double Gaun Sau on the mook - if you look at the position of his right arm you may get a better idea of what i mean by the sweeping motion.

Many of the covering techniques are in BJ, like Muns sau and fark sau, kwai jarn etc. I have seen other ways of covering. For example, Wong Shun Leung used to use kwun sau against gaints rounded attacks, especially against kicks - not that the kwun sau was meant to defend against a kick, but if the attacker feinted, and came in with a hook then there would be some protection. Kwun sau is also useful if somebody tries to trap you in chi sau, and can be used on both gates.

Just my opinion though !

Best wishes, Stu

[churn-ging]

aelward described what I mean by "covering" pretty well.

But to elaborate a little more, what I mean is that when you attack, no matter what kind of attack you are doing, you will always be open somewhere. So when I say cover, I mean that you cover your open gates because those are the places that your opponent can attack you. Also, before you have created a bridge,you usually don't know where your opponent is going to attack. So instead of trying to see what kind of attack is coming at you, you would instead cover a wide area to make sure that you are protected.

For example, when you throw a straight punch with your right hand and your opponent has moved off to your blind side, he will most likely attack either your ribs or your head because those are the exposed areas. So you would then turn to the right and do a scissors gaun sao to cover up the area from your waist up to your head because you don't know where he is going to attack. Then you can use your contact reflexes to attack.

I hope this has cleared at least some things up for you so that we can begin to discussing things.:)

[vingtsunstudent]

churn-ging
'For example, when you throw a straight punch with your right hand and your opponent has moved off to your blind side, he will most likely attack either your ribs or your head because those are the exposed areas. So you would then turn to the right and do a scissors gaun sao to cover up the area from your waist up to your head because you don't know where he is going to attack. Then you can use your contact reflexes to attack.'
if you use your right hand your left should be following it that closely that you don't need to block or are you leaving your right hand out for an etended period(like more than a milli-second is extended)
he shouldn't be able to move his body quicker than you your hands & the fact that your hands are on centre should be enough to cover you seeing as though he will be taking an even longer route around the outside.
the idea of an attack & then having to block to cover because you THINK he is going to attack a vunerable piont doesn't seem to fit ving tsun principles.
it seems to me that there are wasted movements being performed, ie a movement JUST IN CASE.
there is a lot to do with facing & stepping training needed to be done if you feel a need to cover in that way.
vts

[S.Teebas]

Protecting your self is of utmost importance. But I disagree with moving to a position that i 'Hope' will 'cover me...or doing somthing that has worked in the past. Every situation is different.
If you have knowledge of your body, you will know what you will need. (you'll know Exaclty where you are...every limb)

"If you strike them when half has advanced, this is advantageous. " - sun tzu

Doesnt this follow the WC saying of 'Move second arrive first?'

[mthandz]

vts I admire your sifu barry Lee humble and open mind aproach to gungfu. Please consider this offering even thoug I dont neccesarely agree with your analysis

Supose I had to cover distance by moving in with my horse to punch (high) with my right hand, the defender culd move just enough to my blind side to evade and leve me at a facing and positional disadvantage. Given this disadvantage, I wouldnt have time to THINK about what is comming. Instead I instinctively feel threatened in certain portions of my body and I would endevor to preemtively cover up with the appropriate movements as aelward sihing offered.

vts said:
"the idea of an attack & then having to block to cover because you THINK he is going to attack a vunerable piont doesn't seem to fit ving tsun principles. it seems to me that there are wasted movements being performed, ie a movement JUST IN CASE."

Dont you want to hit the other oerson without getting hit yourself? If it means being a little cautious - why not!?! Fighting is not a sport. Attac when certain - play caution otherwise.

vts said:
"there is a lot to do with facing & stepping training needed to be done if you feel a need to cover in that way."

Oh yes, . good point.

mthandz

[mthandz]

S Teebas, I didnt undestand what you wriote.

"If you have knowledge of your body, you will know what you will need. (you'll know Exaclty where you are...every limb)"

I'm more worried about wehre that punk could posibley hit me. What if I need to defend (cover up) against an attack he lunched against me? Isn't it better to cover up those vulnerable openings? justa thoughts

mthandz

[yuanfen]

Differences in lingo perhaps. FWIW- I dont understand the
explanations of "covering" given. Sounds as though that there are
additional unnecessary "defensive" steps involved which is based on guesswork. If one has learned to protect the center line it
should happen reflexively. Sometimes attack is the best defense.
Not putting anyone down- really trying to understand the logic of covering.If I understood VTS's post there was much there that i agreed with.

[Wingman]

IMHO, if you occupy/control the centerline, you are pretty much "covered" defensively. Just like in chess, if your chess pieces occupy the center, then you have control over large areas of the chessboard.


Also, before you have created a bridge,you usually don't know where your opponent is going to attack. So instead of trying to see what kind of attack is coming at you, you would instead cover a wide area to make sure that you are protected.

If you cover your upper gate, you will weaken
your lower gate. If you strenthen your lower gate, you will weaken your upper gate. Should you strengthen your left, you will weaken your right. Should you strengthen your right, you will weaken your left. If you cover everywhere, you will be weak everywhere.

Let's say you have 10 positions to defend and you have 10 soldiers. If you disperse your soldiers (one soldier per defensive position), you are weak in all 10 defensive positions. But if you concentrate all 10 in one position, then you are weak in the other 9 positions.

So where where would you defend? Defend the centerline. The centerline being accessable from all 10 positions. From the centerline, you can defend all areas.

[aelward]

Joy writes:
> Sounds as though that there are additional
> unnecessary "defensive" steps involved which is based on
> guesswork.

Quite the contrary.

Covering can be offensive as much as it defensive in that you can launch an attack that still covers your gates. For example, the "excluding" punch over someone's left jab is an attack, and also covers most possible attacks from his left hand.

Covering also eliminates guesswork, which is the entire point. Guessing is too risky, as is relying on visual reflexes. It means respecting your opponent and the unknowns he presents. You are decreasing your chance of getting hit while you enter into contact range. Afterall, hitting is easy. Not getting hit is the hard part.

> If one has learned to protect the center line it
> should happen reflexively.

If you constantly drill the idea of covering, whether you are attacking or defending, it will become reflexive.

[S.Teebas]

S Teebas, I didnt undestand what you wriote.

If you cant control youself, how can you expect to control anyone else?

Control is power when you think about it.

[mun hung]

There are many ways to explain the principle of covering. aelward's explanation is a good one. This is just another example.

Reaction is always slower than action. When your opponent attacks - you are only reacting to his action. Why react when you can predict, anticipate and then "cover" the entire area? More time? It's actually less time. Covering can also be an open invitation to attack an area that you choose. Open the gate - close the gate. Like setting a trap. Just like in chi sau. This is covering.

With the principle of covering you are always one step ahead of your opponent instead of one step behind.

"Covering" is like opening up an umbrella and knowing that you'll be protected from the rain instead of trying to anticipate and chase every raindrop.

SiFu Duncan Leung will be in our kwoon in NYC next week for a seminar. If anyone is interested - you can contact me.

[yuanfen]

Wing Chun is indeed a diverse and interesting world.
OTOH...one could take the offensive rather than just cover.
If not there is still from Sun Tzu to wc kuen kuit-the principle- you start first, I get there earlier.

[vingtsunstudent]

mthandz
thanx for your comments & i had written a lengthy response but we are having a storm & due to lightning i lost it.
i will say as there is odviously very much a huge difference in peoples ideas on combat & the way wing chun should be used.
mun hung post only further loses me with regards to this subject but for him & me to disagree is nothing new & i think we both know that this is only because of our different interpretations, as always to each there own.
as wingman said, if you are in centre then you are already in a commanding position & your opponent is already left with going to the outside, which is naturally the longest path.
'Reaction is always slower than action'
with the example given(ie you throw a punch), i would really expect you to be in range and by you throwing the punch you are the one taking action, he is the one that has to react & try to counter, by which stage you should already be in control(this is providing you are at a level to UNDERSTAND & APPLY your wing chun hands coupled with your footwork correctly)
i personally believe that from the ideas you guys have given that there is still to many wasted movements goin' on, but if it works for you then more power to ya.
let me finish with this
'With the principle of covering you are always one step ahead of your opponent instead of one step behind.'
i throw a punch, he side steps, to which i cover as he has gone to my blind side.........whoops......he now throws a left hook to the body or head on the otherside as i have left them open whilst covering my right...........whoops...........not the otherside again.
do you understand that the minute you cover, YOU ARE CHASING HANDS & one step behind not infront.
and always remember this is an aggressive art, so don't be scared
vts

[Wingman]

if you are in centre then you are already in a commanding position & your opponent is already left with going to the outside, which is naturally the longest path.

...and may I add, if you occupy the centerline, you always have the option to attack because your attack is more direct. Thus as Sun Tzu said, "we must manage, though starting after
the enemy, to arrive before him".

[S.Teebas]

do you understand that the minute you cover, YOU ARE CHASING HANDS & one step behind not infront.

Very good point VTS!!

If you opponent knows that you are chasing, guess what he'll do? ...He's going to lead you right into a trap!! (i dont mean 'trapping' but a strike etc....) And you get SMASHED!!!!

[mun hung]

Wrong. - Covering is the complete OPPOSITE of chasing hands.

Wingman compared to chess. Covering is just part of the gambit.

Understanding thru this medium is the real problem.

I encourage you to pick up SiFu Duncan Leung's first video for a better idea.

p.s. -
yuanfen - covering is not only for defense. It's principles are also used offensively - just not used in the examples presented.

[mthandz]

...one could take the offensive rather than just cover.
What does going on teh offensive have to do with wing chun thoery and principal? afterall anyone can do that witout learning

If not there is still from Sun Tzu to wc kuen kuit-the principle- you start first, I get there earlier.
How can this apply to churn-gings situtatition where the atacker is now on your blindside? Can it be done? plz explain. thanks ina dvance!

Hopfully on same topic.how is coverage used in larp sau? dose anybody cover in thatkind context

mthandz

[yuanfen]

mun hung- its at a point for me to agree to diasgree The covering idea lacks sufficient precision for me anyway. You are welcome to doing it your way.

mthandz-if the attacker is on your so called blind side- you have made a mistake already- but if you are skilled(good chum kiu) you recover the line and face him/her and attack--you dont just stand there.

[fa_jing]

A few years ago, I had 6 months of experience in another lineage (Chueng). This instructor taught me the concept of "cover the gates", the way he explained it, was similar to what Mun Hung says. However, we didn't go into detail as to what is covered when. The way I understood it, was that your block had to cover an entire gate, so that an incoming strike didn't get past the block. For instance, he taught me to practice the lop sao so that my hand passed by my opposite ear, before sweeping across and downward to catch an incoming punch. If I was lop - ing with my right hand, then my left upper gate was completely covered by this motion.

My current sifu emphasizes more the tight circles, and minimal motion. I think with something like a lop sao, if you're in contact with your opponents arm to begin with, you want a tight motion, but if the strike is coming at a distance, then you need to cover an entire area to make sure you make contact with the incoming strike. Of course, now I am taught to tan sao before trying to lop someone's punch out of thin air.

Still, the same may be true of Tan sao, gan sao, and bon sao, in that we typically practice the block to sweep across an area, they aren't static blocks because it's too hard to make a pinpoint contact with the incoming strike, and remain static at the same time. That may be a reason we practice all the stance shifting, too.

I see the concept of covering illustrated in our version of Chum Kil, in the section with the lan sao + kick, three advancing bon saos, uppercut punch etc. To preform the 3 bon sao + wu sao, we first have our hands low, crossed, and palms up, then lift our arms while rotating our wrists, to the bon sao + wu sao postion. Yip man guys know what I'm talking about. The block in this instance, seems to cover the side middle gate, all the way up to the upper gate. I haven't discussed the reasons behind this exaggerated motion with my instructor, but it seems to me like it may have to do with this covering concept.

-FJ

[hunt1]

It seems that some are making covering complicated.To really understand covering and how it works you must either have real fighting experience or take the time to play with it.

You can not block in a fight it is too slow and puts you behind your opponent.The most basic of all WC motions ,tan da,is a cover and punch.Unless you are doing a double attack,double punch etc, one hand is always covering or should be.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by aelward
Covering also eliminates guesswork, which is the entire point. Guessing is too risky, as is relying on visual reflexes. Guesswork??? What is tan sau, lap sau, pak sau, jut sau, bong sau, etc?

[vingtsunstudent]

honestly i think i could go on for pages to try & describe why you ARE chasing hands but would it change anything------NO.
i respectfuly have to disagree with you and hope that i never have to look upon my ving tsun in that light.
as always though if it works for you then it can't be all that bad.........again i am sorry but i think you are just missing something in your wing chun that will take you to the next level.
vts

[CanadianBadAss]

Would "covering" in our lingeage be the circle we create when doing chi sau or rolling hands, and not allowing anyone to brake it?

[aelward]

Probably a lot of you who are writing off covering probably use it without realizing it. If you intercept a jab with a punch over the top or along the inside gate, you are covering. If you use pak sao to clear an obstacle as your other hand strikes at the centerline, you are covering. If you ever use any of the motions from the tan-sao part of the third form, you are probably covering. If you have ever lifted your bong sao from a low position to a high position, or across your center in a lower position, you are covering. The idea is embedded with the movements of the forms, even if you don't realize it. Now whether you actively train with the concept in mind, that is another story.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you are in centre then you are already in a commanding position & your opponent is already left with going to the outside, which is naturally the longest path.
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... but to assume that just because you take the shortest path means that the person taking the longest path is not going to hit you is a risky proposition. So what if your punch reaches first? If you don't significantly unbalance your opponent (and sometimes, even if you do), he can still wallop you, regardless of who hits first. Like I said before, hitting is easy, not getting hit is the hard part. I've seen this time and time again, where someone tries to charge up the center, landing several hits, and in the end gets nailed by a good hook, even though their opponent was being pushed backwards. Covering just takes the idea of "safety first" so that you are not just exchanging hits.


vingtsunstudent writes:
> i throw a punch, he side steps, to which i cover as he has gone
> to my blind side.........whoops......he now throws a left hook to
> the body or head on the otherside as i have left them open
> whilst covering my right...........whoops...........not the otherside
> again.

Saying that I am understanding your situation well, here's what you can do, that is both offensive and covering: as the person moves to my blind side (I'm assuming it is my right), I step toward him with a right gang sao and a left punch into his center. My gang sao picks up everything heading toward my center from my shoulder to my waist, my left punch covers the my left (whether it is upper or middle gate depends on the height of my opponent). And since he is on my right, his body won't be in a position to put enough torgue into his right hook to cause damge, even if he gets past my left punch.



Now, for a personal story: before, when I sparred with karate, TKD, and other kung fu folks, it was always very easy to close the distance and either control hands or just dominate the centerline. But when I tried this against boxers/kickboxers, it was a completely different story. I was at a loss for why I was still getting hit, even though my attacks were going along the shorter path. It was from joining in a few of SiFu Leung's classes that I picked up on covering; and afterwards, I got hit a lot less when sparring against boxer/kickboxers; I also realized that my own sifu had already incorporated a lot of it into our chi sao practice. It also occurs to me that as one of the 50s WC fighters, maybe SiFu Leung has some real practical experience that we could learn from?

I highly recommend that all of you who advocate charging up the center to spar against a couple of boxers, at full contact, and see if that strategy works. If it does, all the more power to you. If not, then maybe you might give covering a little thought.

[Wingman]

aelward,

Interesting story about sparring with a boxer. I have also encountered a similar situation with a boxer. He usually uses hooks against me. My answer to his hooks are centerline punches since it travels a shorter distance than his hooks. Although I am able to hit him, sometimes he can also hit me with his hooks which lands on my ear or behind my ear. Lucky for me, so far he has not been able to land a good one on my jaw. He said that I lacked timing and suggested that I try jumping rope to improve my timing. Jumping rope improved my timing and I am not getting hit as often.

You mentioned that "covering" can be applied in this situation. Can you please elaborate. Maybe I can try your idea of "covering" the next time I meet my boxer friend.

Thanks in advance...

[vingtsunstudent]

with boxers i have found don't fall for fakes, if he wishes to make a half or wasted movement i am all over him in a second.
they also always have that gap between there hands(a habit most generally brought about by the use of gloves) which opens them automatically to a centreline attack & the use of 45degree footwork in advancing from either side.
this all depends on whether it is you or them attacking or being the aggressor.
another bad habit i have found is their tendency to just cover up or just go into a ball once they are relentlessly attacked.
the moment they start to cover like this they are open to all sorts of lovely attacks to the side of the head & ears & neck region.
of course i can see where you are saying that tan & wu may be considered covereing but in the way you have described it i think there useage here is part of your simultaneous attack defence type solution rather than using them specifically to cover an area that you THINK may be attacked.
just because someone moves to one side doesn't necessarily mean that is where they are going to attack....if you have to think it's too late.......again all i can see from this is CHASING HANDS.
ONE MORE TIME THOUGH........
you right punch, he moves to the outside, you do whatever it takes to make your covering move but instead of using his left hand he has set you up knowing that you will swing around to find him, what he has in actual fact done is bobbed & weaved only to be back on your left hand side......do you move again to try & cover that area not knowing where his next shot is coming from, now, can we all say CHASING HANDS.
vts

[aelward]

To VTstudent: from the sound of your description, you are not going full contact, and you haven't gone up against a variety of boxers. First, if he is leaving a gap between his hands, then he's not wearing gloves, which means you either aren't sparring full contact, you are either **** good, or you just don't give a crap about getting nailed.

I do agree to you some extent in that if you are the agressor, and he is just being defensive, then yes, you have to worry less about non-contact covering since you most likely bridges. Especially if he balls up, yes, it is a gift. However, if someone says that if you are attacking, your opponent is automatically defending, it tells me that they don't have much sparring experience. What if the guy decides to trade hits with you?

> but in the way you have described it i think there useage here
> is part of your simultaneous attack defence type solution rather
> than using them specifically to cover an area that you THINK
> may be attacked.

Once again, covering has absolutely NOTHING to do with guessing or thinking about where you are open. It does not entail any kind of reactive defense, it is a proactive defensive, often in conjunction with a offensive motion as well. Therefore, it is NOT chasing hands. If you have practiced enough, you know where you are open with regard to your opponent's and your own center lines. And of course, that plane between your two center lines might always be changing. So how you attack, and what your other hand might be doing will change accordingly.

[vingtsunstudent]

i'm sorry, i thought we were talking about real fighting.
i personally don't spar but have encountered a few boxers in REAL fights, maybe this is the difference.
like i said if you are worried about getting injured you have no right being involved in a fight in the first place.
vts

[aelward]

vts:

The self-righteous chest thumping is annoying. I'm surprised if you have been in so many real fights, you've never faced someone who is bigger and just wanted to trade hits with you, whether it was a trained boxer or one of the 90% of people out there who have had no martial arts training. You must either pick your fights carefully or have been really lucky. I'm sorry if I can't believe that your charging chainpunching has worked for you all the time.

Didn't realize we were talking about sparring? Maybe you have taken one too many shots to the head, and didn't follow my postings carefully earlier. Maybe you should be more afraid of getting injured.

[S.Teebas]

does not entail any kind of reactive defense, it is a proactive defensive

Wouldnt it be better to practice 1000 hours of attacking, over 1000 hours of proctive defence?

CBA... I dont know how this would fit in with what we do. I cant say we do any such guess work (well thats what im interpreting it as). If you talking about defence, well yeah, id say using the spheres (circle is the concept, spheres dont limit movement..just as we live in a 3 dimensional world) to redirect and attack in 1 motion ..is what we should do.

[vingtsunstudent]

aelward
rather than take that personally & tell you what i really think, i will just say that if you are happy to live in your pretty little world of sparring with all your protective equipment then good for you. you are the first & only one on this thread to bring up that it was sparring, when someone gives a scenario on here and uses the word attacker or the like i generally think real world not laa laa land.
'charging chainpunchs' wow, your a very funny man.
yes of course i've been hit in fights & as to choosing them, well if you had seen the place i started my work in you would realise it was a matter of fight, get the $hit beat out of ya or simply go home, i don't see telling the truth as chest beating but then again i never intended or cared if you believed what i had to say or not.
and as to being lucky, i have mentioned injuries sustained before on here.

quite simply the fact you are chasing hands & don't even realise it shows little for you & your knowledge of wing chun. sorry but that's the facts.
vts

[aelward]

vts,
By all means, I do not mind hearing what you "really think." I am always questioning what I was taught, and rethinking my understanding. If you do not feel it is fit for print in a public forum, then feel free e-mail me at aelward@hotmail.com.

Secondly, sparring at any level of contact is certainly not street fighting, but it is an intensity level up from chi sao, and a better recourse than just trusting what Sifu says without experimenting outside of the confines of your own school. I couldn't care less how much you look down on it, since all you are doing is equating common sense with cowardice. Getting into a fight instead of "simply going home" is just plain stupid, because in the land of the gun, it could quickly get you killed. And because the land of the gun is also the land of the lawsuit, there are also other legal repurcussions.

Thirdly, I suggest you visit SiFu Duncan Leung's forum, where he answers questions himself. I am certain he can expound better on the idea of covering better than I, and perhaps maybe clear up the idea of whether or not covering is the same as chasing hands. He himself is adamantly against chasing hands, so maybe you can see how he rationalizes covering. As a member of WSL's fighting clique, he also has plenty of street fighting experience, so maybe you will respect his opinion more. His forum is at:

http://www.dream-tools.com/tools/messages.mv?index+wingchun

If that doesn't link up, try going through his main webpage at:

http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/hpageie.html



Finally, to paraprhase you; that you are so quick to write off someone else's interpretation of the art when you probably use it yourself without realizing it shows little for you and your knowledge about Wing Chun. Sorry, but those are the facts.

[yuanfen]

"Covering" a gate where an attack may go--- specially with the pics that I have seen sounds like a very static principle- ready made for good grapplers leg attack.

[hunt1]

Seems to be some confusion in the description of covering.Covering is not meant to be static.When used correctly it is very dynamic.I have had several opportunities to work with world class grapplers and I can say that
covering has given them and everyone else fits.Buffed 25 year olds hate having a fat 42 yr old drop them on their butt.

Covering doesnt really protect a gate where an attack might come.It allows you to move without concern about an incoming attack.What the opponent does doesnt matter.

[yuanfen]

Then we agree that the term "covering" lacks precision.
Abd redundant if we mean protecting the center line.....
and attacking on the centerline as well. The center line is a far more fundamental concept than covering.

Regarding a static example of covering. Check the picture cited in one of the posts. Shows a person about to kick and still not quite close and the defender has jammed qwan sau and one knee up
...advantage- kicker- he can kick or fake a kick and take the wc guy down who is standing on one leg.

Its a way of getting hurt.

[hunt1]

Yup ,checked the picture and I agree with you.

[mun hung]

Don't know what picture you guys are talking about, but if you're referring to kwun sau/bong gerk against a roundhouse kick...it definitely works. You don't just stand there on one leg waiting to get kicked. The leg and the kwun sau come together at the same time as the kicking leg reaches you. You have to time the kick.

[yuanfen]

How do you identify it as a roundhouse kick? A cooperative partner drill?No problem if it is a drill? But where is the concept?
If not a drill- is that a standard block against all roundhouse kicks?
Sounds like technique versus technique orientation- commonly done in...karate. Mun hung- I am just responding to your post.
I get the idea. You and I just do things differently- which is ok.

[mun hung]

yuanfen - yes, it is one of many drills that we do for the roundhouse kick. The concept is covering. It is definitely not a standard block for all roundhouse kicks.

As we all know - there are many different solutions for the roundhouse kick. This is only one.

[mthandz]

Just to "cover" myself and apolegies to yo userious gungfu sirs and madames Scattered thoughts from a scatter brain. take no offense. dont think there rae answers jsut questions questions and some more questions. sickening.

How do you know what has to be covered and when? That means your eliminate other portions as being "safe". Can the cover/safe spots be large? Can it be small? Why one and not the other? Does the cover/safe spots change with distance? What else can effect spot? What makes the cover/safe spots change? Can it change with angling? Can it change by wearing spikes? Is covering executed up and down only? Can it be left and right? right and left? down to up? angled? What is best direction to cover? Is coverage faster than chasing? why? Can cover be slow? Can it be fast? When should it be either? why? Why one and not the other? is covering only to keep from getting hit? What do you meean by offensive? can it kick but?

Is it stop a kick? How about a punch? How is it possible to cover a fake? Can it stop a body slam? Can it stop a take down? make you stop from going OOFH? Is it magic? is it sense? or bul$hity thoery? What do you think? or did you already make up you mind?

What do you cover with?
mthandz

[mthandz]

Originally posted by yuanfen
if the attacker is on your so called blind side- you have made a mistake already- ...

Sometimes the other guy is more skillfuly and then I am in a bad situtatiation.

[churn-ging]

The concept of covering doesn't equal protecting the centerline.

In wing chun we should always be protecting our centerline. But there are times when your centerline just isn't directly facing your opponent due to you making a mistake, your opponent having better footwork than you, are whatever. These are the times when "covering your open gates" is used more often. I don't know about you, but I'm human and will probably make a mistake in a fight. And when I do make a mistake, I would rather cover my open gates and minimize the damage that is done to me than to have to take a full power strike. Now, when I'm covering if I make contact with the strike on my arm, I'm not just going to stand there, I'm going to go and launch an attack of my own. If I don't make contact with my arms, then I'm just going to launch an attack of my own, no questions asked.

Seems like some of you don't practice this concept and some of you do. That's fine by me, just try to keep the hostililty down and converse in a friendly manner. That's all I ask.

[Sabu]

I really don't understand the need to practice covering... If you've lost your position, it takes the same amount of time to regain it as is does to "cover" it. Why waste motions and training time?

[S.Teebas]

I would rather cover my open gates and minimize the damage that is done to me than to have to take a full power strike.

Yep, so would i if they were the only 2 options avaliable. But i think what everyone here is trying to get at....is there are better options avaliable.

Rather than a strictly defensive movement, it is possible to attack at this moment, while staying safe.

[Mr Punch]

I don't understand the semantics of this argument...

If you need to regain your position because you've made a mistake and your structure is poor, then you are covering automatically while taking your opponent's centreline and striking...? Surely, it's all the same as basic centreline theory?

The 'cover' is a 'regain' is a 'block/trap' is a 'strike/centreline disruption'! What's the difference? Your centreline should be covered by your strikes (= your gates should be covered as you move...)

[yuanfen]

churn jing: no hostility. Trying to have a serious discussion.

Mat: Covering up is not the same as attacking. Look at the picture
that was mentioned earlier in the thread. Looked more like cowering. The person was still far away and the kick was still not near landing.You have a jammed up kwan sao and a knee up- waiting for the kick to land.A recipe for disaster.

I can understand covering when punches are really raining down on you. thats a differnt scenario. I dont se how "covering" is a significant general concept. At the most it is something that you do when you dont have a choice and things are already raining on you. Preposterous to call it a general concept. Of course I could be wrong. No hostility churn jing. Just frankness.

[Mr Punch]

Joy: sorry, I've checked the whole thread again, and I can't find the pic link, or ref. So, I'm working on my own visualisation...

Hate to nitpick, but I didn't say covering was the same as attacking, I said it was the same as striking... I don't like to use 'attacking' as a conceptual tool: it detracts from the automatic unthinking response of feeding into a space with the nearest weapon.

I didn't put it very well anyway (sorry!), but let's try an example: someone turns a (left) bong into an elbow strike, flowing into downward elbow energy, crushing back through your centreline, trapping both of your arms AND you lose your balance and structure going backwards (terrible I know! How could this happen!? :eek: )

SO, you step back and sideways a little, let his energy come through (hopefully overextending him a little) and send out a man sau whilst pivoting back towards your right to regain your centreline and connect to his... The man covers your centreline, but of course, he is very close so you employ a little extra energy to disrupt HIS centreline. SO, a covering man becomes an uprooting man if he is too heavy with his pressure. If his arms are too light, or his structure is still weak, he will lose his centreline and your man becomes a strike to his head. At no point do you lose contact: you just change the nature of that contact.

This is just one example of a great many off the top of my head, but one which illustrates (sorry if a little clumsily) what I thought everyone meant by covering. It is not meant to illustrate a technique, but is using the description of a technique to suggest 'sending out the feelers' and turning those 'feelers' into the weapons they should be, for the sake of efficiency of movement: ie the basic centreline principle, and striking with the nearest weapon.

[Mr Punch]

Bah!:mad: Too much theory! Somebody just fight me!:D

[mun hung]

We can debate till we're all dead, and we still would'nt be able to prove any points from this medium. (internet) Until you can meet with someone in person who has a good grasp of what "covering" is and can demonstrate it's efficiency and effectiveness - you will not understand it.

For those of you who are attending the New York City Wing Chun gathering - I could give a demonstration of it there.

[mthandz]

I found this, on covering (http://www.dream-tools.com/tools/messageview.mv?view+wingchun+172+index). imo It is very well written and to the point.

is qi sau covering exist in other branches of shaolin systems

mthandz

[vingtsunstudent]

'For example, in fighting, when I throw a punch with my lead hand and someone does a pak sau on my outside arm (or snaps my arm down) instead of fighting against the force as in blocking I will let my forearm go down with him and my elbow will rise up to become a bon sau and jam forward as a first defense. With my other arm, automatically I will cover my open area with a tan sau behind the bon sau as the secondary defense (cover). In other words you have two covers. I am covering the space that I could possibly get hit (the upper part of my body). Because he is knocking my hand down he is not going to hit me low. If he knocks my hand down and does punch me my arm will stop his attacking hand and if he does not punch, my hand is there covering the space anyway. All this training is basically from chi sau.'
THIS IS CHASING HANDS.

'If he knocks my hand down and does punch me my arm will stop his attacking hand and if he does not punch, my hand is there covering the space anyway'

if he doen't punch, well you should have already hit him

my hand is there covering the space anyway, what are you waiting for? are you waiting for him to strike

my hand is there covering the space anyway. the free hands should be attacking not waiting just in case

i'm truely sorry if i offend anyone here but i think you need a hell of a lot better reasons than those given to justify what you call covering when there are odviously wasted movements.
vts

[Sabu]

Originally posted by mun hung
Until you can meet with someone in person who has a good grasp of what "covering" is and can demonstrate it's efficiency and effectiveness - you will not understand it.

Perhaps there is nothing to understand, worthy of discussion or demonstration.

[yuanfen]

we may have covered the subject unless red5angel or others add an angle that folks may have missed.

[mthandz]

Originally posted by Sabu


Perhaps there is nothing to understand, worthy of discussion or demonstration.

Then again, perhaps Galileos copernican experiments wernt worthy of discussion with his peers. who knows :rolleyes:

\^o^/
mthands
(heretic)

[Sabu]

Hardly a comparison.

[Mr Punch]

vts: I see where you're coming from, but;

1) do you use kwan sau?
2) if so, what for/
3) what do you use wu sau for?

[vingtsunstudent]

kwan sau- yes, only when caught at a range where it need be used, i don't block anything & then move to kwan in the event that an attack may come that way. i also don't use it as a gaurd position.
wu sau- is a gaurding hand & yes it used to cover.
the difference is with this your hand is always ready to move forward. it is used in a lot different way to the way covering is being described here.
vts

[Mr Punch]

So when would you use a kwan?!! I agree, only an idiot would use it to guard! But the fact remains you're using two hands to deflect, so why and when? It's still covering, even if your tan is ready to slip through as a strike...!

And your wu sau... It's not hanging around waiting to strike, or chasing anything, but it's covering until you have a GOOD strike...?

Basically, I'm with you on this... a lot of people seem to have an idea of covering that seems to me to be wasting time, or chasing:

But if you have control of your centre you have a cover automatically, as well as a strike, based on the idea that you don't want to give your opponent both hands at the same time unless you are giving them something serious to 'think about'!