Stupid lop sao drill question

[IronFist]

Ok, the lop sao drill (the one where you punch and he bong saos and then lop das...).

Say he punches me, so I bong sao it and then lop da it. With my lop sao, how long do I hold on to his arm? When he bong saos my punch, should I still be grabbing his bonging arm? Or should I pull it back into wu sao with my punch? Cuz, I figure I gotta let go some time because when I bong sao I back it up with a wu sao, which then becomes the lop saoing hand. So, for how long do I hold on to his arm after I lop da?

Thanks,

IronFist

[sunkuen]

You let go when he makes contact with his wu sau on your punch.


Did you try the egg thing yet???

Sunkuen

[reneritchie]

As long as you're touching for feeling and not "holding on" in a resistant manner, you only need to let go when your partner initiates their punch and you begin to Bong and it flows into Wu.

Rgds,

RR

[IronFist]

sunkuen, I didn't do the egg thing yet.

Thanks guys, I think I get it now. But if I were actually applying a bong sao lop da in a fight I would not let go, right? Because I don't want it to be any easier for them to hit me back.

IronFist

[blkbelt65]

Dude,

In a fight, yes you'd hold and pull him down into your up coming vertical fist and knock his a$$ out! Then turn that punch down into lat sao to re-check his arms and then strike again with the hand that just lopped him.


later........

[reneritchie]

You should neither hold on, nor let go, simply touch. If you hold on rigidly, it makes a lever through which your opponent can control you, or if they're skilled at anti-seizing and holding, damage your joints. Just touch, and if they try to hit, accept it, and if they try to run, accompany it.

Rgds,

RR

[black and blue]

My Sifu says the pressure you use with the Lap hand, having Laped, should be like the pressure you use holding a can of Cola. Not too light, not too tight, just enough to hold in place... all for 'feeling'.

We also practise this drill on the move, try not to get into a rhythm with the roll (Ironfist - try breaking the rhythm with changes and simply stopping - then starting), and mix up the... err... mix by throwing in some random attacks from either hand.

The more pressure you use to 'hold' the hand, the harder it is to 'feel' your opponents movement. So Ironfist... all said, use a light grip and release to go back to Wu Sau when your other hand converts from a punch back to Bong Sau.

I love this drill. Try to play it whenever I'm with a fellow Wing Chunner... which can look odd if you're outside the training hall because you and a few others arrived for class an hour early. :)

[stuartm]

The power in the larp sau will come from using the Yiu Ma or turning stance. Your larp sau will pull back naturally as a result of this momentun, but Rene is right, you should not be rigid. If you have good 'ging' your larp sau will pull your opponent off balance, strike, cover and strike with the opposite hand. You will train a lot of this in Ip Ching lineage in what you call 'fan sao' (spelling may be wrong) or continuous hitting. There is a good example of Ip Ching doing this on the VTAA Conference video. I have trained with other lineages who find this very difficult to deal with because you do not stop hitting (one of the main principles of Wing Chun surely?!). Some lineages initaite an attack and when it is blocked they go straight into defensive mode, so you keep hitting and they step back and curl up into a ball !! As the old saying goes 'follow what leaves etc..etc...!!

Best..........Stu

[Ludeviews]

One thing my Sifu said that I think complements the replies is:

baiscally if you're in a fight and after a lap you hold on hard to your opponenets, he'll try and pull his hand away.

If you apply light pressure then his insticts shouldn't kick in to move the arm away.

[black and blue]

Aha... another chap from the South of England!!

Where do you train, and with whom (if you don't mind me asking)?

Duncan

[dezhen2001]

there seems to be more and more UK ppl getting on here wich is great :)

david

[black and blue]

Anyone know how many UK guys and girls practise WC? Seems like there's a club on every corner these days.

Maybe it's just me, but it also seems like there's a decline in Shotokan Karate clubs. I can think of at least three in my area that have closed down in the last 3-4 years.

Back to the Lap Sau drill. We practise it (when not with movement) from YGKYM. We don't use the turn some ppl speak of.
Anyone else do this drill 100 per cent face-on?

Duncan

[stuartm]

Hi all,

Given the UK theme, Ill start things off - I teach for Samuel Kwok in Swansea, South Wales so my lineage is Ip Ching - Samuel Kwok - Me.

Have a look at my site
http://mysite.freeserve.com/swanseawingchun

As for clubs there are two in Swansea, the other being my old instructor who teaches Ip Chun lineage. Suppose thats a good balance !

Your turn !

Stu

[black and blue]

I practise WC in the South. Kamon Wing Chun (www.kamonwingchun.com)

Stuart - how do the two Ip variants... err... vary? Do you get out to HK much?

[dezhen2001]

i've been training 18 months under the Tse Qigong Centre (http://www.qimagazine.com) , which is from Yip Chun lineage :) Mainly i do qigong, and SLT right now as i don't have anyone to play chi sau with lol.

Right now i'm in Wolves, from Scotland originally and train in Manchester :p

david

[stuartm]

Before i studied withy Sifu Kwok i trained for some time under purely Ip Chun lineage - both have great benefits, and have some similarities and also some differences. I would say that Ip Chun tends to be more defensive and scientific in approach, with Ip Ching being more combative and utilising the Yiu Ma more and generating more power akin to fa ging. The Ip Ching way also utilises a lot more of th ebody in generating power, hips , legs, shoulders etc.

The Chi Sao is very different as well and stresses going forward with continuous striking. The Ip Chun way was very strong defensively, with more emphasis on receiving and waiting more for an opportun moment to receive and return the attack. Undoubtedly though, their WC differs due to their height and body size.

I enjoyed both, but just felt more comfortable with the Wing Chun i learnt from Sifu Kwok / Ip Ching and so thats why i stuck with it. As for HK, I am hoping to go late this year or next, but im also looking to buy a house which will probably bleed me dry !!!!

Best Wishes, Stuart

[black and blue]

Sounds like you've had the benefit of both worlds. The Welsh and horses... this is a new one for me :D

Anyway... can't post here all day. Got to get some work done before training tonight. See ya.

[Ludeviews]

and so onto me....

I train at Kamon as well!

I try and make the Sutton and Streatham classes, if time allows will try and stretch to a Monday as well.

What about you?

[black and blue]

No longer am I the only Kamonner on the forum. Today is a good day!!!

I train at Croydon, Crawley and Horsham. With Kevin on a Monday and Bill Bostock on the other two days.

Sutton is M. Chan's class, yes? I went there a few months back for a one-off. A really good class, lots of good drills. I know a chap who trains there regularly (can remember his name!!). Big bloke, one of two brothers - both of whom are very good.

Duncan

[Ish]

Black & Blue
Do you find the bong works as well with the 100% facing each other?

you also mentioned when not moving, do you do a similar drill with stepping or do you just turn

[black and blue]

Bong Sau - Yes, when facing an opponent the bong sau does work. Because of the nature of the drill, the opponent is not trying to hit you in the face, but if the punch does come in to hit, by collapsing the bong (I hate using the word 'collapse') the angle of the arm (ie. elbow higher than wrist) deflects the punch away from the face anyway.

That said, with a pivot/turn you simply optimise space. We do this drill with a relaxed bong sau (structure retained however) and a snappy, powerful move from bong to punch. The aim (for us) is to develop sensitivity and explosive, short range power, and we often practise the drill with the various changes and attacks, with eyes closed. The aim being to rely on correct shapes and structure whilst keeping relaxed.

We also practise it moving around (using Huen Ma and Bik Ma and various turns to change the angle). This can also be practised without sight.

That said, with movement we add in random attacks from either hand, and this can lead to the incorporation of Jum Sau, Tan Sau, Gaurn Sau etc, which returns to the position of Bong Sau and Wu Sau.

Not sure if that's clear. The process is a bit like Dan Chi with movement. I've often seen this done going backwards and forwards. We too do this, but also change the angle of attack/defence. A move to the left or right (if not mirrored by your opponent) opens up an angle to exploit.

Duncan

[IronFist]

Hey thanks guys, you were totally helpful :)

IronFist

[Mr Punch]

Hi Stuart :).

I used to train under a couple of Samuel Kwok's teachers. Excellent stuff.

Just wondering why you say that Sifu Kwok is from Yip Ching? Whatever the current political mood, Sifu Kwok has trained under Yip Chun since 1979, and under Yip Ching since more recently.

When I was with Sifu Kwok's organisation, everyone made a big thing about not being political... which was good; since then there have been various stories, which frankly, are none of my business, or anybody else's but the main protagonists, about some grief between Sifu Kwok and Yip Chun... which is presumably why you state that Sifu Kwok is from Yip Ching...?:confused:

Sifu Kwok's wing chun, as I remember, and that of many of his students, is very good precisely because he utilises the soft, fluid 'can't hit me!' kind of wc that Yip Chun is known for (I wouldn't say defensive!) AND the snappy, 'hard' wc that Yip Ching is renowned for.

I know this sounds like I'm being political: but I'm trying to be the opposite! By stating facts we can avoid anyone getting involved in petty arguments, and the fact is that Sifu Kwok trained for a longer time with Yip Chun.

Sorry to bring this up... but please stick to the facts.:)

[Ludeviews]

Yup that's right. Michael takes the Sutton class. Only been going down to Sutton about 2months.

I think you're talkin' about Steve though, he's big and he's got a brother that trains there!

John Hursworth takes the Streatham side of things....

Sean

[black and blue]

The fitness master... I hear his classes can be... what's the word... taxing!:D

[Ludeviews]

:D Funny everyone says that!!!

Admittedly its a tough lesson, not just in terms of exercises but he expects maximum effort in all the drills etc.. and sometimes goes straight into punching, stamp kicks etc..after a load of burpees/pressups etc...

but I really enjoy them, you get a good buzz after the lesson when you can finally relax!!

See you at one of the events some time.....